keep in mind sucession threats aren't unknown as a way to try to add weight to an argument in some countries. Most democracies accept the right of member components to leave in the event of a referendum to that degree. the USA's refusal to grant their states that right is a bit of an oddity
there's also the source of the information to consider, the reporter seemed highly biased and could have lied to get rise out of Picard hoping he had not checked the facts, so if she's our sole source into the matter I'd consider the information to be of suspect.
or it could be that the writers of both Disco and Picard don't have any respect or give a "F" about canon
Well considering how much little details they do get correct, details that someone who does care about canon would even notice much less care about, I'd say that they just don't care about canon seems unlikely.
I would not give too much weight to the details they do get right (at least in DSC, I have not seen Picard beyond clips and plot synopsis articles) since many of those references amount to little more than name drops, and the ones that are more than that are often wrong in their own details, hinting the the writer either did not know the element at all and just included it from a list or was unaware of the traditional interpretation of it.
That was especially a problem in first season DSC though second has more than its share as well. Some of the gaffs even work out well enough, like the DSC Pike/Number One/Spock dynamic is totally wrong if they were trying to recreate the original but it works for the DSC setting and has a charm of its own.
Hopefully this Klingon Civil war thing leads us finally to the Federation civil war.
What would be the spark for that? The United Federation of Planets has existed since 2164 with little to no internal conflict and far I know Picard didn't show any serious internal conflict ("I disagree on what's the best use of starfleet resources" isn't strong enough to spark a civil war not by a long shot).
Well, I meant my comment more as a joke, but when I think about it, some members of the Federation can be very dissatisfied with the unequal representation in Starfleet, which looks like a homo sapiens club. At the same time, the Starfleet is much more militarized than before and this places increased financial demands on individual members, someone can provide them "a protection" for a lower cost. Some of the worlds in the α and β quadrants are independent and are clearly doing well, f.e. Ferengi, Son'a, Tzenkethi. As indicated in Star Trek: Insurrection, the Federation accept almost everyone, even a world that has a warp for just one year, meaning they have problems. I will give an example from our world, the British Empire was certainly great, providing protection, development and peace to individual members. And it fell apart anyway.
Hopefully this Klingon Civil war thing leads us finally to the Federation civil war.
What would be the spark for that? The United Federation of Planets has existed since 2164 with little to no internal conflict and far I know Picard didn't show any serious internal conflict ("I disagree on what's the best use of starfleet resources" isn't strong enough to spark a civil war not by a long shot).
Well, I meant my comment more as a joke, but when I think about it, some members of the Federation can be very dissatisfied with the unequal representation in Starfleet, which looks like a homo sapiens club. At the same time, the Starfleet is much more militarized than before and this places increased financial demands on individual members, someone can provide them "a protection" for a lower cost. Some of the worlds in the α and β quadrants are independent and are clearly doing well, f.e. Ferengi, Son'a, Tzenkethi. As indicated in Star Trek: Insurrection, the Federation accept almost everyone, even a world that has a warp for just one year, meaning they have problems. I will give an example from our world, the British Empire was certainly great, providing protection, development and peace to individual members. And it fell apart anyway.
except the fact that the British Empire was nothing like UFP. Remember that our viewpoint is extremely limited typically we see only the crew of 1 ship and there was no clear indication for friction between alien and human portions of UFP.
The British Empire had little to no rights for the colonies (especially natives of those colonies) nothing like that is seen with the Federation.
Note that no-one was wondering why 2 aliens are members of the command crew of Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) nor was Spock seen as unthinkable just a bit odd. DS9 command crew had only 2 humans in the command crew and no-one is demanding more humans (in-universe that is). Voyager had 1 alien in the original command crew and no-one fought it was odd.
Essentially every evidence we have does not agree with your assessment.
I would not give too much weight to the details they do get right (at least in DSC, I have not seen Picard beyond clips and plot synopsis articles) since many of those references amount to little more than name drops, and the ones that are more than that are often wrong in their own details, hinting the the writer either did not know the element at all and just included it from a list or was unaware of the traditional interpretation of it.
That was especially a problem in first season DSC though second has more than its share as well. Some of the gaffs even work out well enough, like the DSC Pike/Number One/Spock dynamic is totally wrong if they were trying to recreate the original but it works for the DSC setting and has a charm of its own.
There was never an original Pike/Number One/Spock dynamic, since The Cage was never actually canon. Only the general premise of what happened in the Cage is considered canon, but canon has long since overwritten many aspect of the Cage before Discovery was even an idea.
First off, who even cares if it is technically canon or not, The Cage was as well known as the series itself so the dynamic existed and was known regardless. On top of that, what makes you think it is not canon? Ever heard of the TOS episode The Menagerie? That dynamic was onscreen in live action in TOS, in Star Trek it doesn't get more canon than that.
Hopefully this Klingon Civil war thing leads us finally to the Federation civil war.
What would be the spark for that? The United Federation of Planets has existed since 2164 with little to no internal conflict and far I know Picard didn't show any serious internal conflict ("I disagree on what's the best use of starfleet resources" isn't strong enough to spark a civil war not by a long shot).
Well, I meant my comment more as a joke, but when I think about it, some members of the Federation can be very dissatisfied with the unequal representation in Starfleet, which looks like a homo sapiens club. At the same time, the Starfleet is much more militarized than before and this places increased financial demands on individual members, someone can provide them "a protection" for a lower cost. Some of the worlds in the α and β quadrants are independent and are clearly doing well, f.e. Ferengi, Son'a, Tzenkethi. As indicated in Star Trek: Insurrection, the Federation accept almost everyone, even a world that has a warp for just one year, meaning they have problems. I will give an example from our world, the British Empire was certainly great, providing protection, development and peace to individual members. And it fell apart anyway.
It sometimes looks human-centric, though that is mostly from the narrowly focused view the show gives us. The Federation is a lot looser than the US for instance, something between UN and EU level of integration, with a common currency (the rarely mentioned Federation Credits), very little travel restrictions between members (though some do exist), and a sort of loose metaculture (and even language in the Federation's case) for the people to identify with in addition to their home planet's culture(s), but the member planets themselves are entirely self-governed.
In TNG the Federation President is not human in fact, he is Efrosian:
And what we see in TOS is mainly the UESPA-derived parts of Starfleet. Early on Kirk even identified the ship as a UESPA vessel which, along with other things like the entirely Vulcan Intrepid in TOS and the Vulcan Expeditionary Group in DSC, hints that Starfleet was still not completely integrated as late as the 2260s, and probably resembled something like NATO with member planets contributing personnel and either ships or the resources to build ships to the Federation exploration and defense pot, with the crews mainly clustered by nationality instead of spread out. Also, with the large number of Earth-human looking aliens clustered in the area the Federation occupies a lot of the un-named people walking around on starbases and whatnot could be from somewhere besides Earth and its colonies.
In fact, it isn't until the 2290s that you see a lot of aliens on the Enterprise (except for TAS which was relegated to a "test run" to see if Starfleet ships could provide enough support for that kind of integration according to comments from Paramount back in the day) and it still was unusual enough that Chekov made the "if the shoe fits" comment without even glancing down to see if it actually could. Which implies that they were slowly moving towards the kind of mix you see in TNG but not quite there yet.
Why do people keep saying there is a contradiction? The Cage shows Pike (Illusion) Illusion going with Vina to Pike (Real). The Menagie Cage (inbeded) is just what the Talosians are broadcasting. They chose not to show Vina going with Pike (Illusion) Illusion. That was a secret only Pike (Real) knew, which apparently, he chose not to share. The Talosians respected that. So that scene is used in the Menagerie to portray Vina and Pike (Real) Illusion.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
On top of that, what makes you think it is not canon? Ever heard of the TOS episode The Menagerie?
The Cage has been stated to be non-canon for years, since it was a failed pilot, and never officially part of the show. Elements of the Cage were made canon in The Menagerie, but even TOS contradicts some of what was shown from the clips of The Cage itself.
No, because in this case "canon" is not relevant to the discussion. That quote was in reference to a comparison of the differences between the group dynamics of the trio in The Cage vs the same three in DSC. The performances exist, they can be compared on their own merits regardless of what the current IP holder thinks of them.
And the claim that the original dynamic is not canon is simply wrong anyway. As I pointed out, whether The Cage itself is considered canon or not, the episode The Menagerie is firmly in canon and contains much of the footage that shows that dynamic in action.
Now, just to be thorough and play devil's advocate for the moment, it could be argued that the situation in The Cage was abnormal because the crew was on deployment far too long and on top of that were still reeling from an exploration gone very wrong and that they were not really themselves even before they picked up the distress beacon.
Pike certainly was depressed and questioning his own actions which would have at least some effect on the dynamic, but even that is unlikely to have made Spock and Number One switch roles. In the cage Spock was the moral "good" advisor to Pike while Number One was the darker, more pragmatic advisor, but those roles are reversed in DSC. It is a valid point of conflict between the depictions, and it means that the current writers probably were either unaware of and/or failed to research the original dynamic or were in effect just name dropping and did not care if it meshed with the original or not, so the fact that they included it and some other sometimes fractured and warped references does not prove they were actually fans like a previous poster claimed (which is how this whole tangential branch of the main discussion started).
Klingon Civil War
>>
Federation Civil War
>>
Alliance Collapses
>>
Terran Empire Invasion
>>
Killy emerges as the Empress of the Terran Empire!
>>
Sutherland finally gets a Mirror Typhoon Class!
>>
Sutherland Orders 3D printed Typhoon for his desk
>>
Sutherland is happy!
All my chars on all factions would have a pretty stalwart "f* you & get your s* together" stance towards a new KE/Fed war. Independent but allied and working together as it is now is pretty much perfect IMO.
Sorry, but him smiling at the singing plants was shown in Menagerie.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Note that no-one was wondering why 2 aliens are members of the command crew of Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) nor was Spock seen as unthinkable just a bit odd. DS9 command crew had only 2 humans in the command crew and no-one is demanding more humans (in-universe that is). Voyager had 1 alien in the original command crew and no-one fought it was odd.
Essentially every evidence we have does not agree with your assessment.
Note that no-one was wondering why 2 aliens are members of the command crew of Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) nor was Spock seen as unthinkable just a bit odd. DS9 command crew had only 2 humans in the command crew and no-one is demanding more humans (in-universe that is). Voyager had 1 alien in the original command crew and no-one fought it was odd.
Essentially every evidence we have does not agree with your assessment.
Capitol of Federation - Paris, SF Headquarters - San Francisco, btw how many admirals we saw were aliens? The truth is, when we see leadership somewhere, it's just humans and vulcans.
No, because in this case "canon" is not relevant to the discussion.
Except it is because, again, you can't get something wrong, as you originally claimed Discovery did, when there is no canon about it in the first place. In fictional series, the only thing that is right is canon, and the only thing that is wrong is everything that isn't.
And the claim that the original dynamic is not canon is simply wrong anyway.
Except, again, The Cage isn't canon, officially, as per Trek's own definition of canon, and TOS itself contradicts some of the reused footage from The Menagerie, again proving The Cage isn't canon.
In the cage Spock was the moral "good" advisor to Pike while Number One was the darker, more pragmatic advisor, but those roles are reversed in DSC.
Because, again, The Cage isn't canon, and in canon productions, i.e. TOS, Spock was riven the role and personality of Number One from the Cage, meaning, canonally, Spock acted in Discovery as he does in the rest of canon, i.e., TOS and the TOS movies. Making him the way he was in The Cage would be breaking canon as canon productions have shown him to not be that way. Which is also further proof The Cage isn't canon.
You don't get to rewrite decades of Trek canon just for your Discovery hatred.
Wow, so that is what this is all about? Some imagined "hatred" for DSC? I am not the stereotypical "TOS Purist" or whatever you think I am, and I do not hate DSC. In fact, I actually watch it when I get the chance, I just do not think it is worth the extra expense to get a subscription to CBSAA myself. And that is not a scathing condemnation of the series either, simply that with my tight budget DSC would have to be something very extra special and it just isn't despite some good ideas, it is an entertaining but uninspired generic example of typical modern TV sci-fi.
That aside, I do think DSC could have been done better if Moonves and company did not hold TOS in such contempt (documented in the comments and attitudes displayed in their own behind the scenes clips, not just third party magazines) that they worked backwards from The Undiscovered Country instead of the much closer in the timeline TOS. That particular aspect does have some bearing on this discussion since the attitudes of Moonves's posse almost certainly lead to many of the off-kilter (and even botched)
TOS references in DSC.
As for canon, The Menagerie has always been canon, and at the very least the sections of The Cage that were featured in that envelope episode are just as canon as anything else in Trek regardless of the canonicity of The Cage itself without the envelope. And the matter at hand has less to do with canon than it does with shared world continuity. And yes, different writing and production teams for the different Trek series do make it a case of shared universe writing even when they are all working for the same IP holder, look it up if you do not believe me.
Coming back to the offhand example that turned into such a bone of contention, Roddenberry did not just transfer some of Number One's traits over to Spock, he dropped the entire dynamic and went for an entirely different one because the juxtaposition of the angel/devil on the shoulder dynamic Roddenberry intended would no longer work. And Kirk was not a renamed Pike at all, they were totally different concepts.
On top of that, Spock was not even typically Vulcan in outlook, you first see hints of that with T'Pring and Stonn, and ENT expanded on it in ways that (unsurprisingly) show a lot in common with the Romulan view, just more calculating instead of emotional. DSC takes up where ENT left off in that respect in things like the Vulcan Hello.
TOS Spock always had a more Kantian ethics style, something he could have learned from Number One had they made any attempt to adapt (and I do not mean simply copy) Rodenberry's original dynamic for the trio. It is rather ironic that they did not try that considering Rebecca Romijn has a proven track record of doing that kind of deeply layered character well, but it is hardly the first opportunity DSC squandered.
As for your claim that TOS contradicts the footage in Menagerie, what exactly do you think contradicts?
It is rather ironic that they did not try that considering Rebecca Romijn has a proven track record of doing that kind of deeply layered character well, but it is hardly the first opportunity DSC squandered.
Number One wasn't a main character in DSC s2. She WILL be a main character in SNW. So there will be time to build that relationship.
Yes we know that Starfleet is human dominated in the 23 century due to being an outgrowth of the UESPA's Starfleet (as shown in ENT), how ever futher down the timeline we go more alien admirals pop up suggesting that human dominance wasn't intentional bias but rather a result of Starfleet starting its life as an United Earth organization before the Federation was formed. Note that even the latest of those examples is only from 2290s
Also the very idea of a non-human admiral in Starfleet is considered nothing out of the ordinary. Where as during the British Empire having an Admiral of the Royal Navy who was a native of one of the colonies would be unthinkable.
Again there's little to no evidence of internal tension due to any sort of species bias in UFP, especially during TNG era or beyond.
I think it's a significant problem with this game there there is ALWAYS a bad guy. Some of the best Star Trek stories HAD no villain. It's simply that this game makes no effort to do anything but battles, battles, and more battles.
Examples of great stories with no villain?
Star Trek IV the Voyage Home.
The Inner Light.
Tapestry.
Errand of Mercy (yes, there was a villain, but no battles to speak of).
I'd go on, but I grow weary. I think you get the point.
Well the thing is that some of those stories are hard or next impossible to translate into a working story for STO and they tried a storyline with little to no combat with it and it wasn't liked.
We must remember that TV and videogames are too totally different media and how you handle things depends on your medium and what works for TV might not work for a game or the other way around.
I think right now one of the closest episodes we have in STO is Dust to Dust. Yes you do have some fighting, but 90% of it is not even related to Vaadwaur activity. They're just an obsticle.
I can still remember the old days of gaming, where you had to solve puzzles, navigate mazes, find things hidden in the environment (and they didn't glow and flash like they do here). I wrote a story for the Foundry. Part of it involved locating an NPC hiding somewhere on the map. The challenge was in FINDING him. This was made possible by putting NPC enemies around the map who would drop hints (unless the player killed them). This meant the best way to solve the challenge was to NOT get into a fight, and instead listen in on the NPCs and THINK your way to a solution. There's nothing like that in the game now. If you're supposed to find something, it's marked with a big circle on the map and flashes like a neon sign in the world. There's no challenge in that.
Unfortunately there's apparently some people who can't even figure out the classic invisible floor puzzle, like the one in the ground competetive TFO. I once had a team who was content to just shoot the infinitely spawning enemies on the other side of the chasm. I TRIED to get across, but got stuck half way to the first island because no one was pushing the button to reveal the path for me to progress, and I had no powers that have an effect displayed on the ground to cheese it. We didn't even finish the first puzzle while the other team actually progressed all the way through to the end. Suffice it to say... I was... um... displeased with my team that time.
My point is, there can be challenges that have nothing to do with a bad guy. Right now that's not possible because all we can do is combat or press F. I once suggested a system to allow dynamic conversations with NPCs, but it was pretty well ignored. My exploration ideas too.
I can still remember the old days of gaming, where you had to solve puzzles, navigate mazes, find things hidden in the environment (and they didn't glow and flash like they do here). I wrote a story for the Foundry. Part of it involved locating an NPC hiding somewhere on the map. The challenge was in FINDING him. This was made possible by putting NPC enemies around the map who would drop hints (unless the player killed them). This meant the best way to solve the challenge was to NOT get into a fight, and instead listen in on the NPCs and THINK your way to a solution. There's nothing like that in the game now. If you're supposed to find something, it's marked with a big circle on the map and flashes like a neon sign in the world. There's no challenge in that.
Dynamic NPC conversations are garbage. Oblivion showed that years ago, which is why games tend to try to avoid them. And most exploration ideas don't actually involve real exploration, which is why they don't happen.
The situation you provide is something that would take up only one part of a mission, not even a full mission, much less a full story arc. If you added that into an actual developed narrative, that would lead into some sort of fight after you found the person in question. either because they try to flee, or because the enemies try to take them. So there would still be the same combat situations even in that senario.
Very true.
Microsoft experimented with an AI system called Tay that was supposed to do that kind of dynamic chat. They pointed "her" at twitter and were horrified at the nasty verbal sewage she was spewing in less than a day. AI is just not up to realistic dynamic dialog of the kind that would be needed to make it interesting to do that in STO even on sophisticated systems, and STO is an old engine running on ordinary hardware.
They could do an Eliza but that would be about it and it would bore people to death very quickly.
My point is, there can be challenges that have nothing to do with a bad guy. Right now that's not possible because all we can do is combat or press F. I once suggested a system to allow dynamic conversations with NPCs, but it was pretty well ignored. My exploration ideas too.
I can still remember the old days of gaming, where you had to solve puzzles, navigate mazes, find things hidden in the environment (and they didn't glow and flash like they do here). I wrote a story for the Foundry. Part of it involved locating an NPC hiding somewhere on the map. The challenge was in FINDING him. This was made possible by putting NPC enemies around the map who would drop hints (unless the player killed them). This meant the best way to solve the challenge was to NOT get into a fight, and instead listen in on the NPCs and THINK your way to a solution. There's nothing like that in the game now. If you're supposed to find something, it's marked with a big circle on the map and flashes like a neon sign in the world. There's no challenge in that.
Dynamic NPC conversations are garbage. Oblivion showed that years ago, which is why games tend to try to avoid them. And most exploration ideas don't actually involve real exploration, which is why they don't happen.
The situation you provide is something that would take up only one part of a mission, not even a full mission, much less a full story arc. If you added that into an actual developed narrative, that would lead into some sort of fight after you found the person in question. either because they try to flee, or because the enemies try to take them. So there would still be the same combat situations even in that senario.
Very true.
Microsoft experimented with an AI system called Tay that was supposed to do that kind of dynamic chat. They pointed "her" at twitter and were horrified at the nasty verbal sewage she was spewing in less than a day. AI is just not up to realistic dynamic dialog of the kind that would be needed to make it interesting to do that in STO even on sophisticated systems, and STO is an old engine running on ordinary hardware.
They could do an Eliza but that would be about it and it would bore people to death very quickly.
Part of the issue is that any AI is 100% literal about what's said to it, it literally cannot understand sarcasm, metaphors or similar non-literal ways of expression.
Only real way to bypass that have the valid responses (and thus the conversation) be so dry and formal it'll bore even a career politician to tears, at least if you also want it to run as part of another program like STO.
Discussions about what is considered canon in Star Trek are rather pointless in general.
As long as CBS is happy to take the money from books, comics, episodes and so on, it is canon because it bears the name Star Trek.
F their opportunism of putting the name Star Trek on something to increase its selling potential, but excluding it from what is really considered to have happened in the Trek world.
If it's has been approved by the license holder and thus allowed to carry the name Star Trek, it's canon. If CBS disagrees, they should be more consistent as to what stories, events and developments they green-light. It's simple as that.
You can't treat a franchise like one big cash cow and at the same time pretend to care about keeping things consistent or guiding the 'official' content, thus only officially acknowledging some content and refusing that acknowledgement to other content - after you take the money. Such inconsistent opportunism is hypocritical and no one therefore needs to accept such nonsense.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
The whole construct of 'canon' is basically nothing else than a useful tool for greedy companies to milk a franchise by attaching its name to everything - without accepting the consequences.
I stopped accepting such mind-twisting logic a while ago.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Comments
there's also the source of the information to consider, the reporter seemed highly biased and could have lied to get rise out of Picard hoping he had not checked the facts, so if she's our sole source into the matter I'd consider the information to be of suspect.
I would not give too much weight to the details they do get right (at least in DSC, I have not seen Picard beyond clips and plot synopsis articles) since many of those references amount to little more than name drops, and the ones that are more than that are often wrong in their own details, hinting the the writer either did not know the element at all and just included it from a list or was unaware of the traditional interpretation of it.
That was especially a problem in first season DSC though second has more than its share as well. Some of the gaffs even work out well enough, like the DSC Pike/Number One/Spock dynamic is totally wrong if they were trying to recreate the original but it works for the DSC setting and has a charm of its own.
Well, I meant my comment more as a joke, but when I think about it, some members of the Federation can be very dissatisfied with the unequal representation in Starfleet, which looks like a homo sapiens club. At the same time, the Starfleet is much more militarized than before and this places increased financial demands on individual members, someone can provide them "a protection" for a lower cost. Some of the worlds in the α and β quadrants are independent and are clearly doing well, f.e. Ferengi, Son'a, Tzenkethi. As indicated in Star Trek: Insurrection, the Federation accept almost everyone, even a world that has a warp for just one year, meaning they have problems. I will give an example from our world, the British Empire was certainly great, providing protection, development and peace to individual members. And it fell apart anyway.
The British Empire had little to no rights for the colonies (especially natives of those colonies) nothing like that is seen with the Federation.
Note that no-one was wondering why 2 aliens are members of the command crew of Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) nor was Spock seen as unthinkable just a bit odd. DS9 command crew had only 2 humans in the command crew and no-one is demanding more humans (in-universe that is). Voyager had 1 alien in the original command crew and no-one fought it was odd.
Essentially every evidence we have does not agree with your assessment.
First off, who even cares if it is technically canon or not, The Cage was as well known as the series itself so the dynamic existed and was known regardless. On top of that, what makes you think it is not canon? Ever heard of the TOS episode The Menagerie? That dynamic was onscreen in live action in TOS, in Star Trek it doesn't get more canon than that.
It sometimes looks human-centric, though that is mostly from the narrowly focused view the show gives us. The Federation is a lot looser than the US for instance, something between UN and EU level of integration, with a common currency (the rarely mentioned Federation Credits), very little travel restrictions between members (though some do exist), and a sort of loose metaculture (and even language in the Federation's case) for the people to identify with in addition to their home planet's culture(s), but the member planets themselves are entirely self-governed.
In TNG the Federation President is not human in fact, he is Efrosian:
And what we see in TOS is mainly the UESPA-derived parts of Starfleet. Early on Kirk even identified the ship as a UESPA vessel which, along with other things like the entirely Vulcan Intrepid in TOS and the Vulcan Expeditionary Group in DSC, hints that Starfleet was still not completely integrated as late as the 2260s, and probably resembled something like NATO with member planets contributing personnel and either ships or the resources to build ships to the Federation exploration and defense pot, with the crews mainly clustered by nationality instead of spread out. Also, with the large number of Earth-human looking aliens clustered in the area the Federation occupies a lot of the un-named people walking around on starbases and whatnot could be from somewhere besides Earth and its colonies.
In fact, it isn't until the 2290s that you see a lot of aliens on the Enterprise (except for TAS which was relegated to a "test run" to see if Starfleet ships could provide enough support for that kind of integration according to comments from Paramount back in the day) and it still was unusual enough that Chekov made the "if the shoe fits" comment without even glancing down to see if it actually could. Which implies that they were slowly moving towards the kind of mix you see in TNG but not quite there yet.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
No, because in this case "canon" is not relevant to the discussion. That quote was in reference to a comparison of the differences between the group dynamics of the trio in The Cage vs the same three in DSC. The performances exist, they can be compared on their own merits regardless of what the current IP holder thinks of them.
And the claim that the original dynamic is not canon is simply wrong anyway. As I pointed out, whether The Cage itself is considered canon or not, the episode The Menagerie is firmly in canon and contains much of the footage that shows that dynamic in action.
Now, just to be thorough and play devil's advocate for the moment, it could be argued that the situation in The Cage was abnormal because the crew was on deployment far too long and on top of that were still reeling from an exploration gone very wrong and that they were not really themselves even before they picked up the distress beacon.
Pike certainly was depressed and questioning his own actions which would have at least some effect on the dynamic, but even that is unlikely to have made Spock and Number One switch roles. In the cage Spock was the moral "good" advisor to Pike while Number One was the darker, more pragmatic advisor, but those roles are reversed in DSC. It is a valid point of conflict between the depictions, and it means that the current writers probably were either unaware of and/or failed to research the original dynamic or were in effect just name dropping and did not care if it meshed with the original or not, so the fact that they included it and some other sometimes fractured and warped references does not prove they were actually fans like a previous poster claimed (which is how this whole tangential branch of the main discussion started).
>>
Federation Civil War
>>
Alliance Collapses
>>
Terran Empire Invasion
>>
Killy emerges as the Empress of the Terran Empire!
>>
Sutherland finally gets a Mirror Typhoon Class!
>>
Sutherland Orders 3D printed Typhoon for his desk
>>
Sutherland is happy!
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Wow, so that is what this is all about? Some imagined "hatred" for DSC? I am not the stereotypical "TOS Purist" or whatever you think I am, and I do not hate DSC. In fact, I actually watch it when I get the chance, I just do not think it is worth the extra expense to get a subscription to CBSAA myself. And that is not a scathing condemnation of the series either, simply that with my tight budget DSC would have to be something very extra special and it just isn't despite some good ideas, it is an entertaining but uninspired generic example of typical modern TV sci-fi.
That aside, I do think DSC could have been done better if Moonves and company did not hold TOS in such contempt (documented in the comments and attitudes displayed in their own behind the scenes clips, not just third party magazines) that they worked backwards from The Undiscovered Country instead of the much closer in the timeline TOS. That particular aspect does have some bearing on this discussion since the attitudes of Moonves's posse almost certainly lead to many of the off-kilter (and even botched)
TOS references in DSC.
As for canon, The Menagerie has always been canon, and at the very least the sections of The Cage that were featured in that envelope episode are just as canon as anything else in Trek regardless of the canonicity of The Cage itself without the envelope. And the matter at hand has less to do with canon than it does with shared world continuity. And yes, different writing and production teams for the different Trek series do make it a case of shared universe writing even when they are all working for the same IP holder, look it up if you do not believe me.
Coming back to the offhand example that turned into such a bone of contention, Roddenberry did not just transfer some of Number One's traits over to Spock, he dropped the entire dynamic and went for an entirely different one because the juxtaposition of the angel/devil on the shoulder dynamic Roddenberry intended would no longer work. And Kirk was not a renamed Pike at all, they were totally different concepts.
On top of that, Spock was not even typically Vulcan in outlook, you first see hints of that with T'Pring and Stonn, and ENT expanded on it in ways that (unsurprisingly) show a lot in common with the Romulan view, just more calculating instead of emotional. DSC takes up where ENT left off in that respect in things like the Vulcan Hello.
TOS Spock always had a more Kantian ethics style, something he could have learned from Number One had they made any attempt to adapt (and I do not mean simply copy) Rodenberry's original dynamic for the trio. It is rather ironic that they did not try that considering Rebecca Romijn has a proven track record of doing that kind of deeply layered character well, but it is hardly the first opportunity DSC squandered.
As for your claim that TOS contradicts the footage in Menagerie, what exactly do you think contradicts?
I see one alien, how many you? 90% humans, in addition with english names, the most funny for me are two admirals named Bill & Bob (surnames). https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Starfleet_flag_officers
Number One wasn't a main character in DSC s2. She WILL be a main character in SNW. So there will be time to build that relationship.
Also the very idea of a non-human admiral in Starfleet is considered nothing out of the ordinary. Where as during the British Empire having an Admiral of the Royal Navy who was a native of one of the colonies would be unthinkable.
Again there's little to no evidence of internal tension due to any sort of species bias in UFP, especially during TNG era or beyond.
Well the thing is that some of those stories are hard or next impossible to translate into a working story for STO and they tried a storyline with little to no combat with it and it wasn't liked.
We must remember that TV and videogames are too totally different media and how you handle things depends on your medium and what works for TV might not work for a game or the other way around.
Unfortunately there's apparently some people who can't even figure out the classic invisible floor puzzle, like the one in the ground competetive TFO. I once had a team who was content to just shoot the infinitely spawning enemies on the other side of the chasm. I TRIED to get across, but got stuck half way to the first island because no one was pushing the button to reveal the path for me to progress, and I had no powers that have an effect displayed on the ground to cheese it. We didn't even finish the first puzzle while the other team actually progressed all the way through to the end. Suffice it to say... I was... um... displeased with my team that time.
Very true.
Microsoft experimented with an AI system called Tay that was supposed to do that kind of dynamic chat. They pointed "her" at twitter and were horrified at the nasty verbal sewage she was spewing in less than a day. AI is just not up to realistic dynamic dialog of the kind that would be needed to make it interesting to do that in STO even on sophisticated systems, and STO is an old engine running on ordinary hardware.
They could do an Eliza but that would be about it and it would bore people to death very quickly.
Only real way to bypass that have the valid responses (and thus the conversation) be so dry and formal it'll bore even a career politician to tears, at least if you also want it to run as part of another program like STO.
As long as CBS is happy to take the money from books, comics, episodes and so on, it is canon because it bears the name Star Trek.
F their opportunism of putting the name Star Trek on something to increase its selling potential, but excluding it from what is really considered to have happened in the Trek world.
If it's has been approved by the license holder and thus allowed to carry the name Star Trek, it's canon. If CBS disagrees, they should be more consistent as to what stories, events and developments they green-light. It's simple as that.
You can't treat a franchise like one big cash cow and at the same time pretend to care about keeping things consistent or guiding the 'official' content, thus only officially acknowledging some content and refusing that acknowledgement to other content - after you take the money. Such inconsistent opportunism is hypocritical and no one therefore needs to accept such nonsense.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
I stopped accepting such mind-twisting logic a while ago.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.