The only Enterprise ever to be referred to as the Federation Flagship in canon is the 1701-D. Kirk's Enterprise from TOS was just another Constitution Class, and didn't even become famous until after Kirk's 5-year mission.
We also need a Keldon but as a warship just like the show. Both the Keldon and D'Deridex were warships on the show but in the game they were made like cruisers.
Can't really compare ship classifications between the shows/in game...may ships were considered Cruisers on the shows, even the B'rel could fit the role of Cruiser.
The Klingon cruiser that looked like a B'rel was not a B'rel, it was a full sized cruiser that had very similar looks to a B'rel (of course the real-world reason was that they did not want go though the expense of designing and building another Klingon ship model at that point and just slightly modified the B'rel model to represent the Pagh (which has since been identified as a K'vort class) instead.
Rick Sternbach clarified the situation when he said that officially they have two Klingon BoP classes at the time of TNG, the B'rel at 157.76 meters long, and the K'vort at 678.36 meters. The smaller 109 meter scout ship class that Kirk captured one of and renamed "Bounty" was apparently not in normal operation by that time (nor is it the B'rel according to the length Sternbach gives), though several scenes suggest that they dug some out of mothballs along with a few D7s during the Dominion war (and according to the blueprints given the modelers for ST3 that ship was officially 109 meters though they were a bit sloppy in shooting and compositing which made it look different sizes in that and the following movie).
Ironically, the only time a Bird of Prey was identified as a B'rel Class on screen was in "Rascals", which used the massive Birds of Prey from "Yesterday's Enterprise". Which would mean that canonically, the B'rel is actually the bigger version rather than the smaller one everyone normally gives the name to.
We also need a Keldon but as a warship just like the show. Both the Keldon and D'Deridex were warships on the show but in the game they were made like cruisers.
Can't really compare ship classifications between the shows/in game...may ships were considered Cruisers on the shows, even the B'rel could fit the role of Cruiser.
The Klingon cruiser that looked like a B'rel was not a B'rel, it was a full sized cruiser that had very similar looks to a B'rel (of course the real-world reason was that they did not want go though the expense of designing and building another Klingon ship model at that point and just slightly modified the B'rel model to represent the Pagh (which has since been identified as a K'vort class) instead.
Rick Sternbach clarified the situation when he said that officially they have two Klingon BoP classes at the time of TNG, the B'rel at 157.76 meters long, and the K'vort at 678.36 meters. The smaller 109 meter scout ship class that Kirk captured one of and renamed "Bounty" was apparently not in normal operation by that time (nor is it the B'rel according to the length Sternbach gives), though several scenes suggest that they dug some out of mothballs along with a few D7s during the Dominion war (and according to the blueprints given the modelers for ST3 that ship was officially 109 meters though they were a bit sloppy in shooting and compositing which made it look different sizes in that and the following movie).
Some ships are infamous for changing size depending on the shot, the Klingon Bird of Prey and the Defiant are the most commonly known ships but there are others as well.
IIRC the defiant can be anything from 50 meters or so to over 200 meters depending on the shot, in fact it could have even been less then 50 meters (the low end estimate comes from the shot in First Contact where the Enterprise-E flies in front of the Defiant and the high end is based on the shots of the special shuttle the defiant had launching IIRC).
The only Enterprise ever to be referred to as the Federation Flagship in canon is the 1701-D. Kirk's Enterprise from TOS was just another Constitution Class, and didn't even become famous until after Kirk's 5-year mission.
We also need a Keldon but as a warship just like the show. Both the Keldon and D'Deridex were warships on the show but in the game they were made like cruisers.
Can't really compare ship classifications between the shows/in game...may ships were considered Cruisers on the shows, even the B'rel could fit the role of Cruiser.
The Klingon cruiser that looked like a B'rel was not a B'rel, it was a full sized cruiser that had very similar looks to a B'rel (of course the real-world reason was that they did not want go though the expense of designing and building another Klingon ship model at that point and just slightly modified the B'rel model to represent the Pagh (which has since been identified as a K'vort class) instead.
Rick Sternbach clarified the situation when he said that officially they have two Klingon BoP classes at the time of TNG, the B'rel at 157.76 meters long, and the K'vort at 678.36 meters. The smaller 109 meter scout ship class that Kirk captured one of and renamed "Bounty" was apparently not in normal operation by that time (nor is it the B'rel according to the length Sternbach gives), though several scenes suggest that they dug some out of mothballs along with a few D7s during the Dominion war (and according to the blueprints given the modelers for ST3 that ship was officially 109 meters though they were a bit sloppy in shooting and compositing which made it look different sizes in that and the following movie).
Ironically, the only time a Bird of Prey was identified as a B'rel Class on screen was in "Rascals", which used the massive Birds of Prey from "Yesterday's Enterprise". Which would mean that canonically, the B'rel is actually the bigger version rather than the smaller one everyone normally gives the name to.
Canonically there's only one BoP class not two. Just because it's persistent fanon it doesn't make it canon.
It's just a scaling error, every ship has been subjected to them. The Defiant is big enough for a shuttlebay and yet appears as small as a shuttle sometimes. The Conni canonically has the deck plans to be 400m but is often made to look shorter. Same with the Excelsior (decks at 600m, but scaled down so as not to embarrass the TNG ships) Opposite for the Oberth, it's decks show it to be 300m long in TNG so it wouldn't be invisible next to the Galaxy. The BoP is sometimes so small it has a one deck bridge that fills the head, other times it is the size of a Galaxy Class. The Konni is canonically 366m as per the actual model but interior sets were filmed that wouldn't fit inside (they don't fit inside the Galaxy sized one either BTW), the Dreadnought actually has the distance between the bridge and saucer rim spoken onscreen (40m) making it one of the few ships with a onscreen size (it makes the ship 820m long) spoken and yet even it's size is subject to massive errors.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
No, while there is a lot of scaling errors there are at least two distinctly different classes of Klingon BoP that have their own unique class name, and both of them seem to be bigger than Kruge's ship.
In fact, "A Matter of Honor" would be totally ridiculous if it was the same class of ship that was in ST3. In that movie Kruge stated that a Federation battlecruiser (and yes, the Klingons did call it a battlecruiser) like the Enterprise outgunned their ship ten to one, so how could it possibly be a threat to the Enterprise-D which in turn probably outguns a movie era Constitution by that much or more?
And yes, they did use the same stock footage for both the B'rel and the K'vort classes which was sloppy and cheap of them, but in the stories they were supposed to represent considerably different sized ships. Such is the way of TV series budget saving, especially in the time before digital models became the standard.
As to which is bigger, the dialog says K'vort class battlecruiser so unless the B'rel was supposed to be a full battleship (which it wasn't since it was said to be inferior to the Galaxy class cruiser) then the K'vort is the bigger one just like Sternbach said. Also, in one episode a single K'vort was a credible threat to the Enterprise while it took two B'rels working together, firing immediately after leaving cloak before the Ent-D got its shields all the way up, to capture it.
The 'Legacy' refers to the legacy of the Star Trek Franchise and those are the main ships in their respective series.
This seems to be what they were going for but there's one glaring omission. The Defiant was in the mission and because it featured so heavily in the series it definitely deserved to be there. It wasn't the main ship though. The station was. Deep Space 9 should've warped in and helped me fight those Borg.
I'm looking forward to the Terok Nor class being announced for the legendary bundle.
The 'Legacy' refers to the legacy of the Star Trek Franchise and those are the main ships in their respective series.
This seems to be what they were going for but there's one glaring omission. The Defiant was in the mission and because it featured so heavily in the series it definitely deserved to be there. It wasn't the main ship though. The station was. Deep Space 9 should've warped in and helped me fight those Borg.
I'm looking forward to the Terok Nor class being announced for the legendary bundle.
lol DS9 was the main station and all but Defiant was the "hero ship"
We also need a Keldon but as a warship just like the show. Both the Keldon and D'Deridex were warships on the show but in the game they were made like cruisers.
Can't really compare ship classifications between the shows/in game...may ships were considered Cruisers on the shows, even the B'rel could fit the role of Cruiser.
But those two I mentioned were said to be warships on the show, this is what I mean.
The 'Legacy' refers to the legacy of the Star Trek Franchise and those are the main ships in their respective series.
This seems to be what they were going for but there's one glaring omission. The Defiant was in the mission and because it featured so heavily in the series it definitely deserved to be there. It wasn't the main ship though. The station was. Deep Space 9 should've warped in and helped me fight those Borg.
I'm looking forward to the Terok Nor class being announced for the legendary bundle.
lol DS9 was the main station and all but Defiant was the "hero ship"
There's also the fact that stations are stationary and thus cannot leave their current position (in fact it took massive work in-universe to move DS9 next to the wormhole in sublight speeds), if the DS9 crew wanted to go anywhere they used the runabouts or the Defiant.
Canonically there's only one BoP class not two. Just because it's persistent fanon it doesn't make it canon
No, there are at least two canon bird of prey classes. B'rel class such as changs ship, and several others such as dukats ship and K'vort which as been several times on screen in tng and named at least once in yesterdays enterprise. There is also whatever kruges ship was but I don't really know anything about that one
There's also the fact that stations are stationary and thus cannot leave their current position (in fact it took massive work in-universe to move DS9 next to the wormhole in sublight speeds), if the DS9 crew wanted to go anywhere they used the runabouts or the Defiant.
Like you say, it's moved on the show. It wouldn't be very much sillier than my Jem'Hadar flying an Undine Bioship. And you're right, it should have hangars with Runabout pets and a new Defiant frigate pet.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,687Community Moderator
No, there are at least two canon bird of prey classes. B'rel class such as changs ship, and several others such as dukats ship and K'vort which as been several times on screen in tng and named at least once in yesterdays enterprise. There is also whatever kruges ship was but I don't really know anything about that one
Three actually. K'vort, B'rel, and D12 (Duras Sister's BoP was a D12 as identified by Worf)
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
No, while there is a lot of scaling errors there are at least two distinctly different classes of Klingon BoP that have their own unique class name, and both of them seem to be bigger than Kruge's ship.
Even if B'rel and K'Vort were actual class names and not Klingon words with other meanings (like being Klingoneese for Bird of Prey or some such) they are both identical classes as they use the same model and any differences would be internal.
In fact, "A Matter of Honor" would be totally ridiculous if it was the same class of ship that was in ST3. In that movie Kruge stated that a Federation battlecruiser (and yes, the Klingons did call it a battlecruiser) like the Enterprise outgunned their ship ten to one, so how could it possibly be a threat to the Enterprise-D which in turn probably outguns a movie era Constitution by that much or more?
By the power of only having a limited number of stock footage of good quality that could be used may times over instead of having to film it all over again with a Vor'Cha.
And yes, they did use the same stock footage for both the B'rel and the K'vort classes which was sloppy and cheap of them, but in the stories they were supposed to represent considerably different sized ships. Such is the way of TV series budget saving, especially in the time before digital models became the standard.
And as no episode is consistent there's either dozens of different BoP or one, not two. Considering the extremes of scale the HMS Bounty went through, from runabout sized on Vulcan, to battlecruiser sized, and that was the same ship, size cannot be used as any way of differentiating one BoP from another.
As to which is bigger, the dialog says K'vort class battlecruiser so unless the B'rel was supposed to be a full battleship (which it wasn't since it was said to be inferior to the Galaxy class cruiser) then the K'vort is the bigger one just like Sternbach said.
Yes, because Star Trek is always consistent in how it uses ship types. Like Sarek's 'cruiser' classed runabout or Cornwall's 'cruiser' classed Type C shuttle.
Also, in one episode a single K'vort was a credible threat to the Enterprise while it took two B'rels working together, firing immediately after leaving cloak before the Ent-D got its shields all the way up, to capture it.
And three Bugships destroyed the Odyssey and yet not a single one was destroyed in the final battle of Cardassia.
It's just poor writing, budget saving, and a whole bunch of non-canon post-hoc rationalisation to try correct for the limitations of TV.
Canonically there's only one BoP class not two. Just because it's persistent fanon it doesn't make it canon
No, there are at least two canon bird of prey classes. B'rel class such as changs ship, and several others such as dukats ship and K'vort which as been several times on screen in tng and named at least once in yesterdays enterprise. There is also whatever kruges ship was but I don't really know anything about that one
I have already conceded that two class names seemed to be mentioned but no, they don't refer to specific sizes of BoP as the different sizes are scaling errors not intentional and not consistently done and exist in far more sizes than just two.
Even just two, the HMS Bounty and the IKS Rotarran vary by considerable amounts and they don't change class at any point. Whatever difference there is between the two classes their physical and CGI models are identical and each one comes in a variety of scaling errors.
Three actually. K'vort, B'rel, and D12 (Duras Sister's BoP was a D12 as identified by Worf)
Except we know for a fact that the 'D' designations are specifically not ship classes.
Else the D7 in DSCS1 (with the BtS name of Sech), DSCS2 D7 (the Warbird), and the TMP D7 (BtS name K't'inga named as D7 in VGR) would all be the same class.
So to would be the D5 in early ENT (the tanker with different wings and nacelles), the D5 of later ENT (the battlecruiser), and the D5 of TAS (named as such in DS9).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The Klingons applied several class designations to the different types of their Bird-of-Prey design, including the K'vort class, B'rel class, and D12 class.
The D12 class was retired from service by the 2350s due to faulty plasma coils, which were components of the cloaking systems. This could be exploited as a means of remotely disabling the ship's shields. A low level ionic pulse could cause the plasma coil to reset, which would activate the ship's cloaking device, thus lowering their shields. (Star Trek Generations)
The Sech was probably a continuity error and an attempt to get people's attention. "Hey look! We got something familiar" sort of thing. The s2 D7 was the legit D7 that we would see later on. Think of it as the original model and the TOS version a refit. The K'Tinga could either be a further refit of the D7 or the replacement of the D7 built using the same design but with the latest tech. Kinda like the difference between the Enterprise and any Refit configuration Constitutions built to refit specs from the get go.
The D5 was clearly a versitile spaceframe that was used in both capacities in Enterprise. Not that uncommon to use similar parts for different roles, or even just using the base spaceframe to build the tanker variant as it would be easier to use the same facilities building those parts than make a new facility with new parts. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Easier maintenance in a way. I cannot say one way or the other regarding the TAS D5 though as I am unfamiliar with that one.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
The Klingons applied several class designations to the different types of their Bird-of-Prey design, including the K'vort class, B'rel class, and D12 class.
The D12 class was retired from service by the 2350s due to faulty plasma coils, which were components of the cloaking systems. This could be exploited as a means of remotely disabling the ship's shields. A low level ionic pulse could cause the plasma coil to reset, which would activate the ship's cloaking device, thus lowering their shields. (Star Trek Generations)
The Sech was probably a continuity error and an attempt to get people's attention. "Hey look! We got something familiar" sort of thing. The s2 D7 was the legit D7 that we would see later on. Think of it as the original model and the TOS version a refit. The K'Tinga could either be a further refit of the D7 or the replacement of the D7 built using the same design but with the latest tech. Kinda like the difference between the Enterprise and any Refit configuration Constitutions built to refit specs from the get go.
The D5 was clearly a versitile spaceframe that was used in both capacities in Enterprise. Not that uncommon to use similar parts for different roles, or even just using the base spaceframe to build the tanker variant as it would be easier to use the same facilities building those parts than make a new facility with new parts. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Easier maintenance in a way. I cannot say one way or the other regarding the TAS D5 though as I am unfamiliar with that one.
No matter what post-hoc rationalisation you put on it, the Sech and K't'inga are not the same ship nor able to be mistaken for the same ship so D7 cannot be a class name.
In DS9s 'Once More Unto the Breach' Kor refers to the Klothos from TAS' 'The Time Trap' as 'one of the old D5 cruisers'. Clearly the TOS Battlecruiser is not the same ship as the Battlecruiser or the Tanker from eNT (which are also not the same ship) so D5 is also not a class name.
Same goes for the non-canon D4 Battlecruiser supposed to appear in ENT instead of the D7 reuse we got, it is clearly not the same as the D4 runabout from Into Darkness.
D12 is not a class name.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I always saw D7 etc as a reporting name, something starfleet used so they didn't have to mangle their throat speaking Klingon, or something used because they didn't at the time know the offical designation.
I also dismiss the D7 referance in discovery, my gut instinct is that was intended to be a retcon of the original TOS era battlecruiser design, and after response to the inital changes in season 1 discovery backed away from some of their more radical changes (such as their sudden decleration that "ohh yeah Klingons aren't bald they just shave during wartime in this era!")
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,687Community Moderator
No matter what post-hoc rationalisation you put on it, the Sech and K't'inga are not the same ship nor able to be mistaken for the same ship so D7 cannot be a class name.
At what point did my post say it WAS a D7? I don't see the Sech as a D7 either.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I always saw D7 etc as a reporting name, something starfleet used so they didn't have to mangle their throat speaking Klingon, or something used because they didn't at the time know the offical designation.
Except Kor says D5 in DS9 and L'rell says D7 in DSC, they're Klingon designations, just not classes.
I also dismiss the D7 referance in discovery, my gut instinct is that was intended to be a retcon of the original TOS era battlecruiser design, and after response to the inital changes in season 1 discovery backed away from some of their more radical changes (such as their sudden decleration that "ohh yeah Klingons aren't bald they just shave during wartime in this era!")
It was never intended to be the same D7. There's Klingons with hair in the council stuff at the end and ships like the Conni are clearly more or less the same and there's several raptor shaped Klingon ships throughout DSC. Introducing variation is not retconning anything.
No matter what post-hoc rationalisation you put on it, the Sech and K't'inga are not the same ship nor able to be mistaken for the same ship so D7 cannot be a class name.
At what point did my post say it WAS a D7? I don't see the Sech as a D7 either.
It doesn't matter if you see it as one or not. The Sech was explicitly referred to as a D7 in DSCS1, as were the new ship (in DSCS2), the TOS battlecruiser (in DS9), and the TMP battlecruiser (in VGR).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Actually, the "D#" designation does indicate class and always did. It started out as a prank on Roddenberry to get him to loosen up, the ship had no class name up until then, it was just called a Klingon battlecruiser (and they used the same model for both the battlecruiser and a scoutship btw). The prank was in the form of an argument over which class a particular Klingon ship was, and the class designation stuck.
This quote is from Memory Alpha but it is the same anecdote that Roddenberry told at conventions and included on an LP record he made of those convention monologues:
I went to the stage one day, and they were all ready and waiting for me, because they knew I was really exhausted from some long rewrite sessions. As soon as I walked up to the set, Bill and Leonard blew a scene, but they blew it on purpose and began arguing very violently. Bill was shouting at the top of his voice, "Leonard! What do you mean saying this is a D-7 Klingon ship! It's a D-6!" Leonard shouted back, "No, you idiot, the D-6 has four doors over here and the D-7 only has two!" Bill immediately shouted back, "No, no, no – it's the other way around. You've got it all wrong."
While all of this is going on, I'm standing there, beginning to get frustrated, watching the minutes tick by and mentally counting the money we're losing in expensive crew time, because the cameras aren't rolling. And as the argument continued, I'm thinking to myself, "What are they talking about? They've gone too far!" Then I remembered thinking that I should remember which is the D-6 or the D-7. Finally I couldn't stand it any more, and so I walked in between them and said, "Come on, fellows, it really doesn't matter. Let's get on with the scene." Then the whole crew broke up laughing. This was their way of saying to me, "Hey, time is not that serious. Relax a little."
As for the BoP size thing, yes they do make errors at times, but mostly Kruge's ship works out to the 109 meter length specified on the blueprints for the shooting model. Also, there is no valid reason to disregard the official statement that was made about the K'vort and the B'rel, who cares if they used the same stock footage? The dialog and situation context in the episodes themselves confirm what Sternbach said to a reasonable degree.
Also, DSC has more serious problems than calling smaller ships "cruisers", and at least in the case of Sarek's "cruiser" it was in reference to a civilian diplomatic cruiser and those are an entirely different thing from a military cruiser altogether.
yeah, police cars here in america are called cruisers (among like...12 other things)...and they are not even remotely close to the size of the navy's smallest cruiser, let alone any of the larger classes
so civvie vehicles can be tiny compared to military vehicles and still called cruisers
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
yeah, police cars here in america are called cruisers (among like...12 other things)...and they are not even remotely close to the size of the navy's smallest cruiser, let alone any of the larger classes
so civvie vehicles can be tiny compared to military vehicles and still called cruisers
Sto made up their use of the word cruiser, so you kinda have to strike with what they identify it as.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Comments
Ironically, the only time a Bird of Prey was identified as a B'rel Class on screen was in "Rascals", which used the massive Birds of Prey from "Yesterday's Enterprise". Which would mean that canonically, the B'rel is actually the bigger version rather than the smaller one everyone normally gives the name to.
Some ships are infamous for changing size depending on the shot, the Klingon Bird of Prey and the Defiant are the most commonly known ships but there are others as well.
IIRC the defiant can be anything from 50 meters or so to over 200 meters depending on the shot, in fact it could have even been less then 50 meters (the low end estimate comes from the shot in First Contact where the Enterprise-E flies in front of the Defiant and the high end is based on the shots of the special shuttle the defiant had launching IIRC).
Canonically there's only one BoP class not two. Just because it's persistent fanon it doesn't make it canon.
It's just a scaling error, every ship has been subjected to them. The Defiant is big enough for a shuttlebay and yet appears as small as a shuttle sometimes. The Conni canonically has the deck plans to be 400m but is often made to look shorter. Same with the Excelsior (decks at 600m, but scaled down so as not to embarrass the TNG ships) Opposite for the Oberth, it's decks show it to be 300m long in TNG so it wouldn't be invisible next to the Galaxy. The BoP is sometimes so small it has a one deck bridge that fills the head, other times it is the size of a Galaxy Class. The Konni is canonically 366m as per the actual model but interior sets were filmed that wouldn't fit inside (they don't fit inside the Galaxy sized one either BTW), the Dreadnought actually has the distance between the bridge and saucer rim spoken onscreen (40m) making it one of the few ships with a onscreen size (it makes the ship 820m long) spoken and yet even it's size is subject to massive errors.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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In fact, "A Matter of Honor" would be totally ridiculous if it was the same class of ship that was in ST3. In that movie Kruge stated that a Federation battlecruiser (and yes, the Klingons did call it a battlecruiser) like the Enterprise outgunned their ship ten to one, so how could it possibly be a threat to the Enterprise-D which in turn probably outguns a movie era Constitution by that much or more?
And yes, they did use the same stock footage for both the B'rel and the K'vort classes which was sloppy and cheap of them, but in the stories they were supposed to represent considerably different sized ships. Such is the way of TV series budget saving, especially in the time before digital models became the standard.
As to which is bigger, the dialog says K'vort class battlecruiser so unless the B'rel was supposed to be a full battleship (which it wasn't since it was said to be inferior to the Galaxy class cruiser) then the K'vort is the bigger one just like Sternbach said. Also, in one episode a single K'vort was a credible threat to the Enterprise while it took two B'rels working together, firing immediately after leaving cloak before the Ent-D got its shields all the way up, to capture it.
This seems to be what they were going for but there's one glaring omission. The Defiant was in the mission and because it featured so heavily in the series it definitely deserved to be there. It wasn't the main ship though. The station was. Deep Space 9 should've warped in and helped me fight those Borg.
I'm looking forward to the Terok Nor class being announced for the legendary bundle.
lol DS9 was the main station and all but Defiant was the "hero ship"
No, there are at least two canon bird of prey classes. B'rel class such as changs ship, and several others such as dukats ship and K'vort which as been several times on screen in tng and named at least once in yesterdays enterprise. There is also whatever kruges ship was but I don't really know anything about that one
Like you say, it's moved on the show. It wouldn't be very much sillier than my Jem'Hadar flying an Undine Bioship. And you're right, it should have hangars with Runabout pets and a new Defiant frigate pet.
Three actually. K'vort, B'rel, and D12 (Duras Sister's BoP was a D12 as identified by Worf)
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Even if B'rel and K'Vort were actual class names and not Klingon words with other meanings (like being Klingoneese for Bird of Prey or some such) they are both identical classes as they use the same model and any differences would be internal.
By the power of only having a limited number of stock footage of good quality that could be used may times over instead of having to film it all over again with a Vor'Cha.
And as no episode is consistent there's either dozens of different BoP or one, not two. Considering the extremes of scale the HMS Bounty went through, from runabout sized on Vulcan, to battlecruiser sized, and that was the same ship, size cannot be used as any way of differentiating one BoP from another.
Yes, because Star Trek is always consistent in how it uses ship types. Like Sarek's 'cruiser' classed runabout or Cornwall's 'cruiser' classed Type C shuttle.
And three Bugships destroyed the Odyssey and yet not a single one was destroyed in the final battle of Cardassia.
It's just poor writing, budget saving, and a whole bunch of non-canon post-hoc rationalisation to try correct for the limitations of TV.
I have already conceded that two class names seemed to be mentioned but no, they don't refer to specific sizes of BoP as the different sizes are scaling errors not intentional and not consistently done and exist in far more sizes than just two.
Even just two, the HMS Bounty and the IKS Rotarran vary by considerable amounts and they don't change class at any point. Whatever difference there is between the two classes their physical and CGI models are identical and each one comes in a variety of scaling errors.
Except we know for a fact that the 'D' designations are specifically not ship classes.
Else the D7 in DSCS1 (with the BtS name of Sech), DSCS2 D7 (the Warbird), and the TMP D7 (BtS name K't'inga named as D7 in VGR) would all be the same class.
So to would be the D5 in early ENT (the tanker with different wings and nacelles), the D5 of later ENT (the battlecruiser), and the D5 of TAS (named as such in DS9).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The Sech was probably a continuity error and an attempt to get people's attention. "Hey look! We got something familiar" sort of thing. The s2 D7 was the legit D7 that we would see later on. Think of it as the original model and the TOS version a refit. The K'Tinga could either be a further refit of the D7 or the replacement of the D7 built using the same design but with the latest tech. Kinda like the difference between the Enterprise and any Refit configuration Constitutions built to refit specs from the get go.
The D5 was clearly a versitile spaceframe that was used in both capacities in Enterprise. Not that uncommon to use similar parts for different roles, or even just using the base spaceframe to build the tanker variant as it would be easier to use the same facilities building those parts than make a new facility with new parts. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Easier maintenance in a way. I cannot say one way or the other regarding the TAS D5 though as I am unfamiliar with that one.
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No matter what post-hoc rationalisation you put on it, the Sech and K't'inga are not the same ship nor able to be mistaken for the same ship so D7 cannot be a class name.
In DS9s 'Once More Unto the Breach' Kor refers to the Klothos from TAS' 'The Time Trap' as 'one of the old D5 cruisers'. Clearly the TOS Battlecruiser is not the same ship as the Battlecruiser or the Tanker from eNT (which are also not the same ship) so D5 is also not a class name.
Same goes for the non-canon D4 Battlecruiser supposed to appear in ENT instead of the D7 reuse we got, it is clearly not the same as the D4 runabout from Into Darkness.
D12 is not a class name.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I also dismiss the D7 referance in discovery, my gut instinct is that was intended to be a retcon of the original TOS era battlecruiser design, and after response to the inital changes in season 1 discovery backed away from some of their more radical changes (such as their sudden decleration that "ohh yeah Klingons aren't bald they just shave during wartime in this era!")
At what point did my post say it WAS a D7? I don't see the Sech as a D7 either.
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Except Kor says D5 in DS9 and L'rell says D7 in DSC, they're Klingon designations, just not classes.
It was never intended to be the same D7. There's Klingons with hair in the council stuff at the end and ships like the Conni are clearly more or less the same and there's several raptor shaped Klingon ships throughout DSC. Introducing variation is not retconning anything.
It doesn't matter if you see it as one or not. The Sech was explicitly referred to as a D7 in DSCS1, as were the new ship (in DSCS2), the TOS battlecruiser (in DS9), and the TMP battlecruiser (in VGR).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
This quote is from Memory Alpha but it is the same anecdote that Roddenberry told at conventions and included on an LP record he made of those convention monologues:
As for the BoP size thing, yes they do make errors at times, but mostly Kruge's ship works out to the 109 meter length specified on the blueprints for the shooting model. Also, there is no valid reason to disregard the official statement that was made about the K'vort and the B'rel, who cares if they used the same stock footage? The dialog and situation context in the episodes themselves confirm what Sternbach said to a reasonable degree.
Also, DSC has more serious problems than calling smaller ships "cruisers", and at least in the case of Sarek's "cruiser" it was in reference to a civilian diplomatic cruiser and those are an entirely different thing from a military cruiser altogether.
so civvie vehicles can be tiny compared to military vehicles and still called cruisers
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Sto made up their use of the word cruiser, so you kinda have to strike with what they identify it as.
In one form or another, lore wise yes. In game wise... at least one is an Escort, the NX class.
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