A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
1. Discovery is Prime Timeline canon, no exceptions.
2. Vulcans lie all the time, Spock lied numerous times in TOS, please watch The Enterprise Incident, The Menagerie, Whom Gods Destroy, Errand of Mercy, or literally any other episode.
3. Spock showed emotion all the time in TOS.
4. Canon is only decided by IP owner, nobody else has ever or will ever decide canon.
Only times he really showed much emotion he was under some kind of control, sure maybe he smiled a little but he didn't have a huge grin on his face.
He was not under any 'control' when he had a huge smile on his face when he found out Jim was alive in a certain episode... (Amok Time).
Technically CBS does not own Andromeda, Majel Roddenberry made sure to keep the IP rights instead of transferring them to a network (and even if she did, that network would have been the Canadian network Global who first aired it, not CBS).
Technically CBS does not own Andromeda, Majel Roddenberry made sure to keep the IP rights instead of transferring them to a network (and even if she did, that network would have been the Canadian network Global who first aired it, not CBS).
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
As Cryptic has pointed out time and time again it was THEM who went to CBS to ask if they could do Discovery stuff, not the other way around.
You mean they put this "quantum fungus" feldercarb into their game without being forced into it?
They're even worse at this than I thought.
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
TOS:"Arena", written by the great SF author Frederic Brown, is an adaptation of his original short story "The Arena", with the principals, the method of combat (in the original, the two were separated by a force barrier, which the human realized could be passed by a living being only while said being was asleep), and the ending being the only real changes.
The episode "Arena" was written by Gene L. Coon, actually. And in fact...it really was stolen from Frederic Brown. Coon had written the episode as an "original" work. As they were filming it one of the secretaries pointed out the "similarities" to Brown's story. Faced with the prospect of having to scrap the work they'd already done they quickly contacted Brown about "adapting" the story. He was thrilled with the prospect, never knowing the ep was most of the way in the can by then.... (That's according to industry insiders I've heard from in the past. Memory Alpha gives a somewhat...sanitized...account.)
The themes of the two were radically different, though. In Brown's story the protagonist realizes the Godlike Aliens are right; humans and the Outsiders can never coexist. ST, of course, goes completely the other way.
Post edited by dheffernan on
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
In TOS you could turn in warp just fine, and since the weapons were powered by the impulse drives (in addition to the capacitor banks) they could fight in warp more easily than in impulse. In TOS they would often make hairpin turns (and even spin in place like they did in "Journey to Babel") and had no trouble entering or leaving orbit using warp drive.
In TOS"Journey To Babel" the ship did not "spin in place" at warp. In fact, in order to lure the attacking ship in, they faked being disabled - it's a pretty major plot point, both in the episode and when your TOS player goes through it in game. (And they didn't "spin in place" then either - the attacker stopped to examine the Enterprise, Kirk ordered the weapons to full power, Sulu blasted them into oblivion.)
There were no scenes of "hairpin turns" at warp in TOS either - there weren't even any "hairpin turns" at impulse, because filming this would have been prohibitively expensive. (I exclude any modified special effects from the remastered editions, because I haven't spent years watching remastered TOS episodes. Also, that would be the very definition of "retcon".) And if firing weapons at warp were as common as you assert (I don't recall seeing it happen once), it would have obviated a major plot point in TOS:"Balance of Terror", when Kirk has to take the Enterprise into the Neutral Zone chasing after the Romulan ship, because he can't just sit on the Federation side of the line and fire photon torpedoes FTL to hit the enemy. (And of course he has to do so without getting authorization first, because there's simply no time to wait the hour or more for a message to be relayed to Command and back again; fortunately, they did approve of his decision after the fact.)
I'm just wondering what series you were watching, because it sounds a lot more like Buck Rogers or Battlestar Galactica than TOS.
This discussion of tech progress/regress is interesting. IRL we have a lot of odd examples of tech weirdness. An obvious example is the serious tech decline after the fall of the Roman Empire in the dark ages. Lesser known examples include battleship armor, its a lost art now since no one makes battleships with ridiculously thick armor which has a lot of manufacturing issues to overcome. Bow fighting is another example, where how we think of archery today is probably not at all how it may have been done in practice, at least not in every situation, and the counterpart of the time, armor and why it was shaped and made the way it was. Because these techs are not used anymore they aren't well understood today without actually practicing these arts again to understand them.
Back in the day there was a war between AC/DC power and AC ultimately won out, yet at the same time DC is required for electronics today so we use AC adapters to get power converted into DC.
A more interesting example is the "new" idea of the molten salt/Thorium reactor. Its actually an old idea for nuclear power, but it never caught on for various reasons. Now it has been rediscovered because of the problems with existing nuclear plant designs. And nuclear power generation itself has been fought by activists for years and dwindled in many countries as a power solution, yet it is becoming seen as the real key to the future again because so called renewables are not remotely capable of the capacity we need. I wouldn't be surprised to see coal make a real comeback in the future either as we discover something else we didn't know, maybe its particularly abundant on Mars or something, then we have to relearn best practices for using and burning it again.
So we see tech invented, then falling out of favor and in some cases largely disappearing but in others it is discovered again. I have no idea where this would apply to the new ST show, but it is entirely possible to believe that after ENT, some new ideas were tried that weren't actually that good in the long run, and so old ideas get rediscovered later with a corresponding loss of expertise in their operation. Consider the Intrepid's silly nacelle movement for space environmental reasons. Well it was a stopgap solution that has since been solved in other ways so they aren't really needed anymore.
In TOS you could turn in warp just fine, and since the weapons were powered by the impulse drives (in addition to the capacitor banks) they could fight in warp more easily than in impulse. In TOS they would often make hairpin turns (and even spin in place like they did in "Journey to Babel") and had no trouble entering or leaving orbit using warp drive.
In TOS"Journey To Babel" the ship did not "spin in place" at warp. In fact, in order to lure the attacking ship in, they faked being disabled - it's a pretty major plot point, both in the episode and when your TOS player goes through it in game. (And they didn't "spin in place" then either - the attacker stopped to examine the Enterprise, Kirk ordered the weapons to full power, Sulu blasted them into oblivion.)
There were no scenes of "hairpin turns" at warp in TOS either - there weren't even any "hairpin turns" at impulse, because filming this would have been prohibitively expensive. (I exclude any modified special effects from the remastered editions, because I haven't spent years watching remastered TOS episodes. Also, that would be the very definition of "retcon".) And if firing weapons at warp were as common as you assert (I don't recall seeing it happen once), it would have obviated a major plot point in TOS:"Balance of Terror", when Kirk has to take the Enterprise into the Neutral Zone chasing after the Romulan ship, because he can't just sit on the Federation side of the line and fire photon torpedoes FTL to hit the enemy. (And of course he has to do so without getting authorization first, because there's simply no time to wait the hour or more for a message to be relayed to Command and back again; fortunately, they did approve of his decision after the fact.)
I'm just wondering what series you were watching, because it sounds a lot more like Buck Rogers or Battlestar Galactica than TOS.
You are right about one thing, the warp pivot was not in "Journey to Babel", it was in "Elaan of Troyius". The two episodes use the same warp strafe of the heroes who are stuck at sublight schtick and I sometimes get them mixed up. The pertinent lines are here:
KIRK: Chekov, arm photon torpedoes.
CHEKOV: Photon torpedoes ready.
SULU: Warp power to the shields, Captain?
KIRK: Negative. His sensors will pick up our power increase. The more helpless he thinks we are, the closer he'll come. As he passes, I want to cut in warp drive. We'll pivot at warp two and bring all tubes to bear.
SULU: Aye, sir.
In both of those episodes a ship in warp is firing on a ship at impulse, in fact the "intruder" ship in the Babel episode does it at warp 10 (old scale, which is about warp eight in the TNG warp scale). In general though, two ships in warp at that time with their weapons connected to the impulse engines instead of the warp drives have no trouble fighting each other in warp, though for some unexplained reason that is not true of a ship stuck in sublight trying to return fire when strafed by a ship in warp.
Listen to the dialog and the sound of the engines in other episodes, like for instance "The Ultimate Computer", and you will see most of the time they fight at around warp four.
As for hairpin turns, they do it in "Operation Annihilate!" and in several other episodes according to dialog and the viewscreen. And yes, they do not show it from the outside due to budget constraints, but that is true of just about all fancy maneuvers since they had a very small library of stock shots. The first time they show a hairpin turn from outside the ship is in the pilot episode for TNG where they do a saucer separation at warp and the battle section does a hairpin while still in warp and goes back toward the object that is pursuing them.
Back in the day there was a war between AC/DC power and AC ultimately won out, yet at the same time DC is required for electronics today so we use AC adapters to get power converted into DC.
The "Current War" was over how electricity would be supplied to homes - DC won for that, as it's less dangerous when you touch a live wire (the pulsed nature of the current means you get a chance to let go).
AC is used for long-range transmission of power, as with DC there is a sharp falloff of transmission power with range. Essentially, if we used DC for long-range power transmission, we'd need a power generator every few miles, because the DC strength would fall off too rapidly. So we compromise - the high-voltage current is transmitted by AC, then run through DC converters before going to your house. (Back in my day, there were these big cans up on poles outside everyone's house; here in the modern era, they like to run the power lines underground for both safety and aesthetic purposes.)
> @phoenixc#0738 said:
> (Quote)
>
> Technically CBS does not own Andromeda, Majel Roddenberry made sure to keep the IP rights instead of transferring them to a network (and even if she did, that network would have been the Canadian network Global who first aired it, not CBS).
Andromeda is owned by Roddenberry Entertainment, which is a production partner with CBS on Discovery (and all the other new shows) and whose boss Rodd Roddenberry is an EP on Discovery.
Andromeda really needs a remake, along with Earth: Final Conflict. Both brilliant ideas (some of the original scripts where fantastic).
I'm pretty amazed in this era of reboots that no-one has captilized upon Genes other idea's.
> @equinox976 said:
> (Quote)
>
> Andromeda really needs a remake, along with Earth: Final Conflict. Both brilliant ideas (some of the original scripts where fantastic).
>
> I'm pretty amazed in this era of reboots that no-one has captilized upon Genes other idea's.
Discovery season 3 is effectively the Andromeda reboot.
Excellent I'm glad they are making use of it somehow.
and pretty much everything in andromeda is stuff roddenberry wanted in star trek to begin with...so it's really just being put back where it was always supposed to be, and would have been but for corporate shenanigans
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
> @phoenixc#0738 said:
> (Quote)
>
> Technically CBS does not own Andromeda, Majel Roddenberry made sure to keep the IP rights instead of transferring them to a network (and even if she did, that network would have been the Canadian network Global who first aired it, not CBS).
Andromeda is owned by Roddenberry Entertainment, which is a production partner with CBS on Discovery (and all the other new shows) and whose boss Rodd Roddenberry is an EP on Discovery.
Andromeda really needs a remake, along with Earth: Final Conflict. Both brilliant ideas (some of the original scripts were fantastic).
I'm pretty amazed in this era of reboots that no-one has capitalized upon Gene's other ideas.
I am tired of remakes. I want some more originality. Leave Andromeda and Earth: Final Conflict alone.
While you are correct about the above, the tale of Noah in the Torah which is part of the Old Testament (The Law and the Prophets) was not borrowed from a tale in the Epic of Gilgamesh contrary to you, Heinlein, and those who say this stuff.
There are a whole host of biblical scholars who disagree with you.
I know there are a host of biblical scholars who disagree with me but I suggest other people check out the rest and not just the popular ones. Also, I am leery of certain consensuses. Again, similarity does not equal borrowing all the time.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I am tired of remakes. I want some more originality.
Usually I would agree, but in the case where the material has been poorly used, and has not lived up to it's potential, I think it warrants a remake/reboot.
I am tired of remakes. I want some more originality.
Usually I would agree, but in the case where the material has been poorly used, and has not lived up to it's potential, I think it warrants a remake/reboot.
No, it doesn't. A new story continuity always deserves a new name to go with it, for both works' sake. Recycling the good name of an original work to boost sales of Something Entirely Different is sacrilege.
I am tired of remakes. I want some more originality.
Usually I would agree, but in the case where the material has been poorly used, and has not lived up to it's potential, I think it warrants a remake/reboot.
No, it doesn't. A new story continuity always deserves a new name to go with it, for both works' sake. Recycling the good name of an original work to boost sales of Something Entirely Different is sacrilege.
Well I didn't say it has to be called Andromeda or Earth: Final Conflict. I was saying if the material was good but the direction was bad, that the material deserves a chance to reach its full potential.
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Comments
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
He was not under any 'control' when he had a huge smile on his face when he found out Jim was alive in a certain episode... (Amok Time).
Technically CBS does not own Andromeda, Majel Roddenberry made sure to keep the IP rights instead of transferring them to a network (and even if she did, that network would have been the Canadian network Global who first aired it, not CBS).
Meh, who would want Andromeda
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
My character Tsin'xing
You mean they put this "quantum fungus" feldercarb into their game without being forced into it?
They're even worse at this than I thought.
The episode "Arena" was written by Gene L. Coon, actually. And in fact...it really was stolen from Frederic Brown. Coon had written the episode as an "original" work. As they were filming it one of the secretaries pointed out the "similarities" to Brown's story. Faced with the prospect of having to scrap the work they'd already done they quickly contacted Brown about "adapting" the story. He was thrilled with the prospect, never knowing the ep was most of the way in the can by then.... (That's according to industry insiders I've heard from in the past. Memory Alpha gives a somewhat...sanitized...account.)
The themes of the two were radically different, though. In Brown's story the protagonist realizes the Godlike Aliens are right; humans and the Outsiders can never coexist. ST, of course, goes completely the other way.
There were no scenes of "hairpin turns" at warp in TOS either - there weren't even any "hairpin turns" at impulse, because filming this would have been prohibitively expensive. (I exclude any modified special effects from the remastered editions, because I haven't spent years watching remastered TOS episodes. Also, that would be the very definition of "retcon".) And if firing weapons at warp were as common as you assert (I don't recall seeing it happen once), it would have obviated a major plot point in TOS:"Balance of Terror", when Kirk has to take the Enterprise into the Neutral Zone chasing after the Romulan ship, because he can't just sit on the Federation side of the line and fire photon torpedoes FTL to hit the enemy. (And of course he has to do so without getting authorization first, because there's simply no time to wait the hour or more for a message to be relayed to Command and back again; fortunately, they did approve of his decision after the fact.)
I'm just wondering what series you were watching, because it sounds a lot more like Buck Rogers or Battlestar Galactica than TOS.
Back in the day there was a war between AC/DC power and AC ultimately won out, yet at the same time DC is required for electronics today so we use AC adapters to get power converted into DC.
A more interesting example is the "new" idea of the molten salt/Thorium reactor. Its actually an old idea for nuclear power, but it never caught on for various reasons. Now it has been rediscovered because of the problems with existing nuclear plant designs. And nuclear power generation itself has been fought by activists for years and dwindled in many countries as a power solution, yet it is becoming seen as the real key to the future again because so called renewables are not remotely capable of the capacity we need. I wouldn't be surprised to see coal make a real comeback in the future either as we discover something else we didn't know, maybe its particularly abundant on Mars or something, then we have to relearn best practices for using and burning it again.
So we see tech invented, then falling out of favor and in some cases largely disappearing but in others it is discovered again. I have no idea where this would apply to the new ST show, but it is entirely possible to believe that after ENT, some new ideas were tried that weren't actually that good in the long run, and so old ideas get rediscovered later with a corresponding loss of expertise in their operation. Consider the Intrepid's silly nacelle movement for space environmental reasons. Well it was a stopgap solution that has since been solved in other ways so they aren't really needed anymore.
You are right about one thing, the warp pivot was not in "Journey to Babel", it was in "Elaan of Troyius". The two episodes use the same warp strafe of the heroes who are stuck at sublight schtick and I sometimes get them mixed up. The pertinent lines are here:
In both of those episodes a ship in warp is firing on a ship at impulse, in fact the "intruder" ship in the Babel episode does it at warp 10 (old scale, which is about warp eight in the TNG warp scale). In general though, two ships in warp at that time with their weapons connected to the impulse engines instead of the warp drives have no trouble fighting each other in warp, though for some unexplained reason that is not true of a ship stuck in sublight trying to return fire when strafed by a ship in warp.
Listen to the dialog and the sound of the engines in other episodes, like for instance "The Ultimate Computer", and you will see most of the time they fight at around warp four.
As for hairpin turns, they do it in "Operation Annihilate!" and in several other episodes according to dialog and the viewscreen. And yes, they do not show it from the outside due to budget constraints, but that is true of just about all fancy maneuvers since they had a very small library of stock shots. The first time they show a hairpin turn from outside the ship is in the pilot episode for TNG where they do a saucer separation at warp and the battle section does a hairpin while still in warp and goes back toward the object that is pursuing them.
AC is used for long-range transmission of power, as with DC there is a sharp falloff of transmission power with range. Essentially, if we used DC for long-range power transmission, we'd need a power generator every few miles, because the DC strength would fall off too rapidly. So we compromise - the high-voltage current is transmitted by AC, then run through DC converters before going to your house. (Back in my day, there were these big cans up on poles outside everyone's house; here in the modern era, they like to run the power lines underground for both safety and aesthetic purposes.)
Andromeda really needs a remake, along with Earth: Final Conflict. Both brilliant ideas (some of the original scripts where fantastic).
I'm pretty amazed in this era of reboots that no-one has captilized upon Genes other idea's.
Yeah plus Spock is only half Vulcan.
As much as I love Spock, I would say Tuvok was a far better representation of Vulcans.
Excellent
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I am tired of remakes. I want some more originality. Leave Andromeda and Earth: Final Conflict alone.
I know there are a host of biblical scholars who disagree with me but I suggest other people check out the rest and not just the popular ones. Also, I am leery of certain consensuses. Again, similarity does not equal borrowing all the time.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Usually I would agree, but in the case where the material has been poorly used, and has not lived up to it's potential, I think it warrants a remake/reboot.
Well I didn't say it has to be called Andromeda or Earth: Final Conflict. I was saying if the material was good but the direction was bad, that the material deserves a chance to reach its full potential.
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