I bought a game called Grim Dawn last week and I've been averaging about twelve hours playtime a day. This is because I can't do STFs/Queues/TFOs. I CAN'T because I don't know. I don't know how you all learned but after six and a half years I still have no clue. If anything like team work is involved I'm out. It's not because I'm anti-anything, It is literally because I don't know where to learn. Typing in the chat box during combat ain't happenin'. I also have no idea how to use voice. I tried to research it but I apparently lack the intellect to understand what those web pages were discussing. I like combat pets but I had to pass on The Breach again because the youtube videos left me feeling like I had no business there. That's how I see most TFOs. I don't know what I'm doing...so I don't belong there. The rewards, apart from protomatter micro-containers (or whatever they are called. I'm lookin' at you Tzenkethi.) are not the issue for me. Neither is the time-gate. I have a Klingon character that I've played since I started STO but he's never going to look as good as the folks who earned Honor Guard gear because I CANNOT play the content. I don't know how. It is not intuitive. Even though there is so much of STO that I can't do, I have never quit and still log in every day to something. Sorry for the rant/wall o' text but I have seen this topic discussed for years and I gonna say this one more time. If you want me, or anyone like me, in the TFOs, then we're gonna need actionable intel. Thank you for your time. LLAP
As of right now, the main source of knowledge on how to run a STF is from other players. But again this highlights a problem in the community. Communication.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I bought a game called Grim Dawn last week and I've been averaging about twelve hours playtime a day. This is because I can't do STFs/Queues/TFOs. I CAN'T because I don't know. I don't know how you all learned but after six and a half years I still have no clue. If anything like team work is involved I'm out. It's not because I'm anti-anything, It is literally because I don't know where to learn. Typing in the chat box during combat ain't happenin'. I also have no idea how to use voice. I tried to research it but I apparently lack the intellect to understand what those web pages were discussing. I like combat pets but I had to pass on The Breach again because the youtube videos left me feeling like I had no business there. That's how I see most TFOs. I don't know what I'm doing...so I don't belong there. The rewards, apart from protomatter micro-containers (or whatever they are called. I'm lookin' at you Tzenkethi.) are not the issue for me. Neither is the time-gate. I have a Klingon character that I've played since I started STO but he's never going to look as good as the folks who earned Honor Guard gear because I CANNOT play the content. I don't know how. It is not intuitive. Even though there is so much of STO that I can't do, I have never quit and still log in every day to something. Sorry for the rant/wall o' text but I have seen this topic discussed for years and I gonna say this one more time. If you want me, or anyone like me, in the TFOs, then we're gonna need actionable intel. Thank you for your time. LLAP
As of right now, the main source of knowledge on how to run a STF is from other players. But again this highlights a problem in the community. Communication.
As a secondary source there's a fair number of video's on youtube. Forgot where those trip lines are in that queue you haven't played in a while? Google is your friend. To the person whom you quoted... there's not much you can do wrong in normal queues or events, you should give some of them a try. After a half dozen times watching what others are doing you'll get the hang of things
I’ve always felt the big queues like Big Dig, Breaking the Planet and Starbase Fleet Defense would be better as a sort of persistent mini battle zone that just resets after each successful mission. That way the map could adjust to how many players are there and you could run it with as many or few as we’re present.
No more nightmare trying to get 20 players together with that.
Honestly? I think it was originally built that way. After playing open world missions in Champions I think it was built using the same tech as those. Specifically how all the stuff comes back after a short timer. I mean all the objectives respawn! (But you only get credit when the appropriate objective is live.
Sigh...this is why I hate the forums...spend time writing out a comment and try to be nice and word it correctly only to have it disappear into the void; maybe someone just doesn't like what I have to say and deletes comments of mine, I wouldn't put it past someone.
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I had a bunch of arguments for and against time gates, but I don't want to wright it all out again. Thought I should put another note here on it. I could maybe try to replicate it but at this point I don't see the point.
Post edited by alcaatraz on
--- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do maths stuffs ---
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I bought a game called Grim Dawn last week and I've been averaging about twelve hours playtime a day. This is because I can't do STFs/Queues/TFOs. I CAN'T because I don't know. I don't know how you all learned but after six and a half years I still have no clue. If anything like team work is involved I'm out. It's not because I'm anti-anything, It is literally because I don't know where to learn. Typing in the chat box during combat ain't happenin'. I also have no idea how to use voice. I tried to research it but I apparently lack the intellect to understand what those web pages were discussing. I like combat pets but I had to pass on The Breach again because the youtube videos left me feeling like I had no business there. That's how I see most TFOs. I don't know what I'm doing...so I don't belong there. The rewards, apart from protomatter micro-containers (or whatever they are called. I'm lookin' at you Tzenkethi.) are not the issue for me. Neither is the time-gate. I have a Klingon character that I've played since I started STO but he's never going to look as good as the folks who earned Honor Guard gear because I CANNOT play the content. I don't know how. It is not intuitive. Even though there is so much of STO that I can't do, I have never quit and still log in every day to something. Sorry for the rant/wall o' text but I have seen this topic discussed for years and I gonna say this one more time. If you want me, or anyone like me, in the TFOs, then we're gonna need actionable intel. Thank you for your time. LLAP
A lot of us that have been playing since beta or when the game went F2P, learned the old fashion way, trial and error. especially in the the old Borg Elites from that time. When you had to hope you pug team knew what to do, or you could find a team in zone chat.
For some of the older STfs, there are still mechanics you can follow. They put some of those in the new stuff. But, the simple explanation for how to do them, is really nothing more then, "Go here, fly in circles, or stand, and kill whatever enemy get within range." That's the current standard for STFs. Can you count to 1? Then you can do said content.
The older content isn't much of a concern either. You can basically ignore most of the mechanics and DPS your way through them. Plus, for the elite marks, you only need to hit advanced. Elite STF's aren't even needed for this. As for the Honor Guard, well you can't get the Elite commander accolade, as that requires you to get the old MK X gear, which you can't. So you can still get the others.
So don't worry over it, go in, do it, and learn as you go. With the current focus on DPS, don't worry about teamwork to much. That already died long ago. The only two queues, or STFs, or the Totally Fubar Operations as they want to call them now, that require a semblance of teamwork really are, Arena of Sompek and Kobayashi Maru.
As for the Honor Guard, well you can't get the Elite commander accolade, as that requires you to get the old MK X gear, which you can't. So you can still get the others.
It's not the MK X gear that breaks it. It's because they removed the Elites, and you can't get the relevant "Optional" cheevos out of Easymode, so you can't get it anymore.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
At the request of @tunebreaker, I've decided to try and reproduce my original statement.
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As some of the people who know me have experienced, I've had a small fascination with how game design can work. It is a hobby and I don't actively talk about it (I don't do anything active on the forums) but I do try to understand it; and in that endeavor I've learned a few things. I do not do this for a living; if I were to class what I do in anything it would be a systems person. I study engineering, but I'm deeply interested in the complexities of all things; how an object moves to the reactions of a person and the reasoning behind it.
So I won't pretend to have answers; I don't think anyone here can. We as players simply lack data to say anything, and our suggestions and assumptions are made on our perspectives of what we percieve to be doable.
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Firstly though, I want to start off on what I believe the fundamental flaw with queue design is; it's not simply time gates nor is it rewards, but it comes to a point which people toss around without a perceptive understanding of what it could be: that is engagement.
I do not at this time feel engaged in STO. I stay for the small community of friends I have made, the standard content of STO does not captivate me. Be this my being lumped into the "Elitist DPSers" who finish content to fast and without problems might have to do with it. ISA takes a few min and largely is risk free; I begin the queue and finish the queue with the same expectations - that I would win. Each time I get the same mark payout, and regardless of the actual numbers I know that it will take roughly the same amount of time. A time gate nor a reward increase will make me any more engaged in this queue. CCA holds the same lack of appeal. These queues have simply become a method of dil collection.
Then we go to Swarm. The first two portions occur based on a players ability to dispatch groups after interacting with something (which as it happens are fragile interacts - something I'm staunchly against - what happened to the crews of hundreds we have on board?), then transitioning to a time gated period. For the Hur'q who characteristically appear to have endless swarms it makes sense for them to have never ending waves of targets for us to kill. However, these appear to only spawn when a transport is about to be launched, so it becomes less of a swarm and more of a lane management simulator; we kill things as they spawn and then again in 45s, then to wait 60s for the next group.
Clockwork repetition for a full 15 min.
Engaging? Maybe the first few times but after that it loses its shine. Engagement is not a metric you can simply define as the amount of time a player spends in game, but instead I would measure it as a rate of actions over a given time. The more actions (UI clicks, ability activation's, spamming 'f' to interact with something) are how players act when engaged. The more actions the higher engagement; it's not perfect but its good enough. So when we have queues that do not adapt to how well a player performs it quickly loses its appeal. Instead of the wait between transports, you would expect transports to launch as soon as able. Yes this can take time to fill but the more you can release to the player the more they will have to be in combat; a dynamic environment where you know that as soon as once a lane finishes you need to get ready to do it all again not only generates excitement but tends to keep the mind slightly more focused on the topic.
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If there is to be the instance of time gates present, make them set and on a rotation (also referred to as an endless mode elsewhere in this thread). Having to defend a base and giving the group a choice to continue or leave after set number of waves or surviving an onslaught after a certain period of time; then increasing the reward payout as you increase in the number of cycles you go through. Personally I would enjoy this type of gameplay to that of any ISA or CCA. A new HSE to test a tanks prowess in the form of a proper survival mode.
I can honestly say I would be actively seeking out a team whenever possible to try this. The dynamic experience, similar to Kobayashi Maru but without having to protect a craft which has a terrible AI and is made of tissues.
--
We can apply the same thing to Borg Disconnected in a similar idea, and also tie that into the idea of rewards. Recently I played this queue for the first time this year and found that within a few minutes we had completed the 15 freed ship requirement for the optional. I then found myself less willing to put energy into the game. I didn't use abilities as much, I didn't move my ship as much, and I really didn't care about freeing more. To me there appears to not be a reason to do so. Sure *maybe* there's some threshold of additional ships you need to free to qualify for more marks but I can't remember ever seeing a difference in payout. Then there's the issue of once you free the 15 borg your forced to sit and wait around for the next 5 to 10 min (or however long it is) until the next cinematic happens.
The players time has value, and that should be rewarded. If a group of players can exceed expectations of the queue they should be given something more; a chance at a very rare / ultra rare generic item (i.e. phaser beam with 4 mods). Note this is a chance. Have a pool of randomized resources that once you go over and above the queues expectations you get granted, and something the player might actually value.
More marks and more dil isnt the answer. As I spoke of before ISA and CCA all have pretty much standard payouts now and I fo in without worry about the outcome. However, if there was a chance I would get some neat new piece of gear or a pool of bonus salvage or commendation I might pay more attention, and try to cycle more queues.
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And that brings me to the final point, and that is the fundamental philosophy of queue design.
Take TFA. This is a queue introduced during the height of the plasma embassy console use and impact. The Tzenkethi have high shield resistances from all sides, and the plasma consoles made this a cake walk completely bypassing there unique gimmick. When S13 first dropped there was a clear inability for the average player to finish it. Designing a queue around a meta which will change, or a portion of the player base is not the way I see queues to be done; and while I highly doubt that it will have any impact into any future development of queues I feel that these should adapt to the players performance either by throwing more targets at a player or granting them a damage / HP increase, or both!
STO is the only game I can think of where portions of the player base actively avoid trying to improve performance numbers. Sure not everyone need be obsessed with DPS or %AtksIn or HPS, but there is such a flat subversion to the idea that a player should try to constantly obtain a greater ability that it boggles me.
Maybe this is due there being no feedback on a players actions during a queue; CCA has the 1st/2nd/3rd place rewards, but outside of that there's no way to judge performance. I have encountered more players in the last month of being back on a decent internet connection who believe themselves to be incredible tanks only to manage a measly 0.5% atksin. I can only believe this to be a misunderstanding of what tanking is (that being an act of seeking being shot at intentionally). Maybe this is my misunderstanding. None the less there exists a disjoint between what the player perceives to be their statistics and what happens in reality; be this from a distinct lack of explanation on some of the core mechanics (me being a systems-type person I thoroughly enjoy talking about these things but I know not everyone does) such as the fundamentals of damage or some other human response.
And no - presenting a parser in game to all is not the solution. STO is in the unique point where to implement such an thing now would shun everyone who doesn't care about their damage (which is the problem for some as I see it), so another solution is needed. As I said I don't have all the answers.
What I do know is that to pick any point in a players progression as the clear and defining "majority" ruins the queue before it even becomes a thing.
Focus on the high end and droves of players refuse to try it because they think they cannot, and make it to easy and then you flood the player base with the marks it would grant and it becomes something less of a queue and more of a guaranteed payout. Pick the middle and eventually you have the same of both problems in a lesser proportion which is where I feel ISA like queues are now.
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So fundamentally STO's queue problem is less one of time gates and rewards and more towards the philosophy of the game. A major shift is needed in my limited opinion; be this how a player is forced to evolve or a fundamental change in how a game pushes a player, at the end of the day a player who is not constantly challenged is one who will quickly grow un-engaged and isnt that the point after all? To keep the player in as long as possible and to foster a feeling of excitement and entertainment; not force desk work at the player and devolve the game space into one of constant repetition where their time isnt respected and where being great is just as rewarding as being good.
This is not something the devs can do on their own. This requires a greater sense of wholeness on the part of player base. We need less squabbling over DPS elitist and new players not knowing anything as if its a crime. If the player base can come together then maybe we can try and provide insight into what we want and work together to make the goals of the devs meet what players want more.
I know its a long shot and this isn't going to reach enough people to make the message known but a man can dream no?
--- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do maths stuffs ---
-snip- cause y'all can read the post in original form above
Forget the "awesome" react, I need a "hella amazing", at the very least.
Thanks for taking the time to write it again, this is an awesomely crafted post and is worded a lot better than I ever could. And while engagement is, imo, not a perfect measure to use cause it can be subjective depending on the individual player, then at the same time, coming up with something better is also incredibly hard.
I wanted to comment more on it, but realized you've done such an amazing job that I can't really do anything else but to show you my complete approval. Extremely well structured thoughts, and thank you again!
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
For what it’s worth the reason I think many players don’t feel any wish to push themselves to be better is simply because there is no reason do so. If I can complete ISA in 30 seconds less time with a better build so what? It doesn’t get me anything better reward wise. I don’t earn any prize for being better. There’s no competitive element to the game where being faster or able to do more damage earns you some fancy shiny toy. Doing elite runs which would require me to push myself don’t really reward me with anything in particular that I need/want/can get elsewhere. Literally the only reason to push yourself is to get bigger numbers in a third party piece of software.
Literally the only reason to push yourself is to get bigger numbers in a third party piece of software.
Not really. Believe it or not, some of us find it fun.
It can be fun theory crafting a build, trying different things and seeing how they perform in combat. There are still some Elite Queues that provide a challenge even to high end builds and some people like the challenge.
Sure, it's not for everyone but that's the nice thing about Elites.. no one has to do them but they're there if you enjoy them. We certainly don't run them for the rewards.
Yes, but for something to persist and expand beyond a narrow subset of people who just do this for no reason, everyone else needs some kind of reason to participate. This is, ultimately, a game about getting stuff and paying the space bills.
I agree with you, but Elites were made for just that.. a 'small subset of people.'
Elites were never intended to have a huge player count, they're there for a small group of players that wants to push their builds, have the 'best of the best' gear and ultimately put those builds and gear to the test. They're not intended for the majority of the players.
Sure, in an ideal world the rewards would magnify accordingly but I think we both know that's not going to happen. The only real function of Elites are for fun and they will always appeal to a very small percentage of the player base.
Yes, but for something to persist and expand beyond a narrow subset of people who just do this for no reason, everyone else needs some kind of reason to participate. This is, ultimately, a game about getting stuff and paying the space bills.
I agree with you, but Elites were made for just that.. a 'small subset of people.'
Elites were never intended to have a huge player count, they're there for a small group of players that wants to push their builds, have the 'best of the best' gear and ultimately put those builds and gear to the test. They're not intended for the majority of the players.
Sure, in an ideal world the rewards would magnify accordingly but I think we both know that's not going to happen. The only real function of Elites are for fun and they will always appeal to a very small percentage of the player base.
And I suppose you have dev quotes on the design intent on Elites being to serve you specifically?
It's my opinion the Elites have never received a whole lot of design attention in any direction. Slapping on more enemy stats and whatever fail condition they could recycle from the optionals and there, it's ready. Their actual difficulty level varies more dramatically than anything else in the game. I seriously doubt things like Korfez being that hard are on purpose, more likely they just haven't paid attention to the effect their "balance passes" over the years have had on content few people ever play. Just imagine how hard bog-standard ISA would be if they let all the bugs pile on forever. Then there are other Elites that are casually puggable. Some of them, most notably in the competitive rep, are even rewards-optimal. I don't know what they were thinking making all of them but if they're intentionally just for a few players to run just for laughs, it's because they've been abandoned to that state.
In an ideal world, the Elite version would not just "magnify" the rewards, it would reward something different that people who already have the rewards from the lower levels would still want. Like the original STF drops, you had to do Elite to get the Mk XII version of the gear, so you could gear up in Normal and still have reason to play Elite. Simply scaling the generic rewards to make Elites worthwhile is indeed impossible, if there is no uniqueness at all. It's already impossible to scale them to account for the time difference between short and long content, much less to consider difficulty level as well.
And I suppose you have dev quotes on the design intent on Elites being to serve you specifically?
I never said they were designed for me specifically.. obviously.
As for a Dev Quote.. how's this?
Elite – The Best of the Best
Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.
Your pathetic attempt at an insult aside, the rest of your post is so insanely idiotic that there is no way it is anything other then a troll attempt.. and a pathetic one at that. You really need it explained to you that Elites are supposed to be hard? Really?
If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.
And I suppose you have dev quotes on the design intent on Elites being to serve you specifically?
I never said they were designed for me specifically.. obviously.
As for a Dev Quote.. how's this?
Elite – The Best of the Best
Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.
Your pathetic attempt at an insult aside, the rest of your post is so insanely idiotic that there is no way it is anything other then a troll attempt.. and a pathetic one at that. You really need it explained to you that Elites are supposed to be hard? Really?
If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.
If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.
It's rather impossible to disagree with this. 'Elites', by their very definition, are not meant for the general population. If they were, they wouldn't be 'Elites.'
How do we become "proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events" which don't HAVE Normal or Advanced versions? (Korfez).
Fair point indeed.
The best way I can explain that is.. it's cryptic.. not everything makes sense.
That aside, the intent of Elite Queues is obvious.. it's even discernible from the name 'Elite.' I think most players would know that new or under geared players should probably not queue for something called 'Elite.'
If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.
It's rather impossible to disagree with this. 'Elites', by their very definition, are not meant for the general population. If they were, they wouldn't be 'Elites.'
Like "Advanced?" That they nerfed into the ground because not everyone could complete them every time.
And I suppose you have dev quotes on the design intent on Elites being to serve you specifically?
I never said they were designed for me specifically.. obviously.
As for a Dev Quote.. how's this?
Elite – The Best of the Best
Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.
Your pathetic attempt at an insult aside, the rest of your post is so insanely idiotic that there is no way it is anything other then a troll attempt.. and a pathetic one at that. You really need it explained to you that Elites are supposed to be hard? Really?
If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.
You have to admit though, that quote (the Dev one) is misleading.
How do we become "proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events" which don't HAVE Normal or Advanced versions? (Korfez).
Fair point indeed.
And what's worse, Normal and Advanced tend to differ from each other (and sometimes radically even). I don't play Elites, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Advanced and Elites are not the same either. 'Hard to become proficient, when different the versions are.'
That aside, the intent of Elite Queues is obvious.. it's even discernible from the name 'Elite.' I think most players would know that new or under geared players should probably not queue for something called 'Elite.'
Or "Advanced" for that matter. Cryptic disagreed. But that's not the point. The point is they're not meant to exist just for laughs with no worthwhile rewards. I'd explain it in detail but since you ignored me in favor of hurling insults the first time, not gonna bother.
Comments
As of right now, the main source of knowledge on how to run a STF is from other players. But again this highlights a problem in the community. Communication.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
My character Tsin'xing
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I had a bunch of arguments for and against time gates, but I don't want to wright it all out again. Thought I should put another note here on it. I could maybe try to replicate it but at this point I don't see the point.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Edit monster?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
A lot of us that have been playing since beta or when the game went F2P, learned the old fashion way, trial and error. especially in the the old Borg Elites from that time. When you had to hope you pug team knew what to do, or you could find a team in zone chat.
For some of the older STfs, there are still mechanics you can follow. They put some of those in the new stuff. But, the simple explanation for how to do them, is really nothing more then, "Go here, fly in circles, or stand, and kill whatever enemy get within range." That's the current standard for STFs. Can you count to 1? Then you can do said content.
The older content isn't much of a concern either. You can basically ignore most of the mechanics and DPS your way through them. Plus, for the elite marks, you only need to hit advanced. Elite STF's aren't even needed for this. As for the Honor Guard, well you can't get the Elite commander accolade, as that requires you to get the old MK X gear, which you can't. So you can still get the others.
So don't worry over it, go in, do it, and learn as you go. With the current focus on DPS, don't worry about teamwork to much. That already died long ago. The only two queues, or STFs, or the Totally Fubar Operations as they want to call them now, that require a semblance of teamwork really are, Arena of Sompek and Kobayashi Maru.
That's actually true. No elite optionals
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
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As some of the people who know me have experienced, I've had a small fascination with how game design can work. It is a hobby and I don't actively talk about it (I don't do anything active on the forums) but I do try to understand it; and in that endeavor I've learned a few things. I do not do this for a living; if I were to class what I do in anything it would be a systems person. I study engineering, but I'm deeply interested in the complexities of all things; how an object moves to the reactions of a person and the reasoning behind it.
So I won't pretend to have answers; I don't think anyone here can. We as players simply lack data to say anything, and our suggestions and assumptions are made on our perspectives of what we percieve to be doable.
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Firstly though, I want to start off on what I believe the fundamental flaw with queue design is; it's not simply time gates nor is it rewards, but it comes to a point which people toss around without a perceptive understanding of what it could be: that is engagement.
I do not at this time feel engaged in STO. I stay for the small community of friends I have made, the standard content of STO does not captivate me. Be this my being lumped into the "Elitist DPSers" who finish content to fast and without problems might have to do with it. ISA takes a few min and largely is risk free; I begin the queue and finish the queue with the same expectations - that I would win. Each time I get the same mark payout, and regardless of the actual numbers I know that it will take roughly the same amount of time. A time gate nor a reward increase will make me any more engaged in this queue. CCA holds the same lack of appeal. These queues have simply become a method of dil collection.
Then we go to Swarm. The first two portions occur based on a players ability to dispatch groups after interacting with something (which as it happens are fragile interacts - something I'm staunchly against - what happened to the crews of hundreds we have on board?), then transitioning to a time gated period. For the Hur'q who characteristically appear to have endless swarms it makes sense for them to have never ending waves of targets for us to kill. However, these appear to only spawn when a transport is about to be launched, so it becomes less of a swarm and more of a lane management simulator; we kill things as they spawn and then again in 45s, then to wait 60s for the next group.
Clockwork repetition for a full 15 min.
Engaging? Maybe the first few times but after that it loses its shine. Engagement is not a metric you can simply define as the amount of time a player spends in game, but instead I would measure it as a rate of actions over a given time. The more actions (UI clicks, ability activation's, spamming 'f' to interact with something) are how players act when engaged. The more actions the higher engagement; it's not perfect but its good enough. So when we have queues that do not adapt to how well a player performs it quickly loses its appeal. Instead of the wait between transports, you would expect transports to launch as soon as able. Yes this can take time to fill but the more you can release to the player the more they will have to be in combat; a dynamic environment where you know that as soon as once a lane finishes you need to get ready to do it all again not only generates excitement but tends to keep the mind slightly more focused on the topic.
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If there is to be the instance of time gates present, make them set and on a rotation (also referred to as an endless mode elsewhere in this thread). Having to defend a base and giving the group a choice to continue or leave after set number of waves or surviving an onslaught after a certain period of time; then increasing the reward payout as you increase in the number of cycles you go through. Personally I would enjoy this type of gameplay to that of any ISA or CCA. A new HSE to test a tanks prowess in the form of a proper survival mode.
I can honestly say I would be actively seeking out a team whenever possible to try this. The dynamic experience, similar to Kobayashi Maru but without having to protect a craft which has a terrible AI and is made of tissues.
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We can apply the same thing to Borg Disconnected in a similar idea, and also tie that into the idea of rewards. Recently I played this queue for the first time this year and found that within a few minutes we had completed the 15 freed ship requirement for the optional. I then found myself less willing to put energy into the game. I didn't use abilities as much, I didn't move my ship as much, and I really didn't care about freeing more. To me there appears to not be a reason to do so. Sure *maybe* there's some threshold of additional ships you need to free to qualify for more marks but I can't remember ever seeing a difference in payout. Then there's the issue of once you free the 15 borg your forced to sit and wait around for the next 5 to 10 min (or however long it is) until the next cinematic happens.
The players time has value, and that should be rewarded. If a group of players can exceed expectations of the queue they should be given something more; a chance at a very rare / ultra rare generic item (i.e. phaser beam with 4 mods). Note this is a chance. Have a pool of randomized resources that once you go over and above the queues expectations you get granted, and something the player might actually value.
More marks and more dil isnt the answer. As I spoke of before ISA and CCA all have pretty much standard payouts now and I fo in without worry about the outcome. However, if there was a chance I would get some neat new piece of gear or a pool of bonus salvage or commendation I might pay more attention, and try to cycle more queues.
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And that brings me to the final point, and that is the fundamental philosophy of queue design.
Take TFA. This is a queue introduced during the height of the plasma embassy console use and impact. The Tzenkethi have high shield resistances from all sides, and the plasma consoles made this a cake walk completely bypassing there unique gimmick. When S13 first dropped there was a clear inability for the average player to finish it. Designing a queue around a meta which will change, or a portion of the player base is not the way I see queues to be done; and while I highly doubt that it will have any impact into any future development of queues I feel that these should adapt to the players performance either by throwing more targets at a player or granting them a damage / HP increase, or both!
STO is the only game I can think of where portions of the player base actively avoid trying to improve performance numbers. Sure not everyone need be obsessed with DPS or %AtksIn or HPS, but there is such a flat subversion to the idea that a player should try to constantly obtain a greater ability that it boggles me.
Maybe this is due there being no feedback on a players actions during a queue; CCA has the 1st/2nd/3rd place rewards, but outside of that there's no way to judge performance. I have encountered more players in the last month of being back on a decent internet connection who believe themselves to be incredible tanks only to manage a measly 0.5% atksin. I can only believe this to be a misunderstanding of what tanking is (that being an act of seeking being shot at intentionally). Maybe this is my misunderstanding. None the less there exists a disjoint between what the player perceives to be their statistics and what happens in reality; be this from a distinct lack of explanation on some of the core mechanics (me being a systems-type person I thoroughly enjoy talking about these things but I know not everyone does) such as the fundamentals of damage or some other human response.
And no - presenting a parser in game to all is not the solution. STO is in the unique point where to implement such an thing now would shun everyone who doesn't care about their damage (which is the problem for some as I see it), so another solution is needed. As I said I don't have all the answers.
What I do know is that to pick any point in a players progression as the clear and defining "majority" ruins the queue before it even becomes a thing.
Focus on the high end and droves of players refuse to try it because they think they cannot, and make it to easy and then you flood the player base with the marks it would grant and it becomes something less of a queue and more of a guaranteed payout. Pick the middle and eventually you have the same of both problems in a lesser proportion which is where I feel ISA like queues are now.
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So fundamentally STO's queue problem is less one of time gates and rewards and more towards the philosophy of the game. A major shift is needed in my limited opinion; be this how a player is forced to evolve or a fundamental change in how a game pushes a player, at the end of the day a player who is not constantly challenged is one who will quickly grow un-engaged and isnt that the point after all? To keep the player in as long as possible and to foster a feeling of excitement and entertainment; not force desk work at the player and devolve the game space into one of constant repetition where their time isnt respected and where being great is just as rewarding as being good.
This is not something the devs can do on their own. This requires a greater sense of wholeness on the part of player base. We need less squabbling over DPS elitist and new players not knowing anything as if its a crime. If the player base can come together then maybe we can try and provide insight into what we want and work together to make the goals of the devs meet what players want more.
I know its a long shot and this isn't going to reach enough people to make the message known but a man can dream no?
Forget the "awesome" react, I need a "hella amazing", at the very least.
Thanks for taking the time to write it again, this is an awesomely crafted post and is worded a lot better than I ever could. And while engagement is, imo, not a perfect measure to use cause it can be subjective depending on the individual player, then at the same time, coming up with something better is also incredibly hard.
I wanted to comment more on it, but realized you've done such an amazing job that I can't really do anything else but to show you my complete approval. Extremely well structured thoughts, and thank you again!
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
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My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Holy TRIBBLE that was a GREAT post!
Very well written, I think I agree with every word you said.
I am glad you took the time to rewrite it, it was very much worth reading.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
For what it’s worth the reason I think many players don’t feel any wish to push themselves to be better is simply because there is no reason do so. If I can complete ISA in 30 seconds less time with a better build so what? It doesn’t get me anything better reward wise. I don’t earn any prize for being better. There’s no competitive element to the game where being faster or able to do more damage earns you some fancy shiny toy.
Doing elite runs which would require me to push myself don’t really reward me with anything in particular that I need/want/can get elsewhere.
Literally the only reason to push yourself is to get bigger numbers in a third party piece of software.
Not really. Believe it or not, some of us find it fun.
It can be fun theory crafting a build, trying different things and seeing how they perform in combat. There are still some Elite Queues that provide a challenge even to high end builds and some people like the challenge.
Sure, it's not for everyone but that's the nice thing about Elites.. no one has to do them but they're there if you enjoy them. We certainly don't run them for the rewards.
I agree with you, but Elites were made for just that.. a 'small subset of people.'
Elites were never intended to have a huge player count, they're there for a small group of players that wants to push their builds, have the 'best of the best' gear and ultimately put those builds and gear to the test. They're not intended for the majority of the players.
Sure, in an ideal world the rewards would magnify accordingly but I think we both know that's not going to happen. The only real function of Elites are for fun and they will always appeal to a very small percentage of the player base.
It's my opinion the Elites have never received a whole lot of design attention in any direction. Slapping on more enemy stats and whatever fail condition they could recycle from the optionals and there, it's ready. Their actual difficulty level varies more dramatically than anything else in the game. I seriously doubt things like Korfez being that hard are on purpose, more likely they just haven't paid attention to the effect their "balance passes" over the years have had on content few people ever play. Just imagine how hard bog-standard ISA would be if they let all the bugs pile on forever. Then there are other Elites that are casually puggable. Some of them, most notably in the competitive rep, are even rewards-optimal. I don't know what they were thinking making all of them but if they're intentionally just for a few players to run just for laughs, it's because they've been abandoned to that state.
In an ideal world, the Elite version would not just "magnify" the rewards, it would reward something different that people who already have the rewards from the lower levels would still want. Like the original STF drops, you had to do Elite to get the Mk XII version of the gear, so you could gear up in Normal and still have reason to play Elite. Simply scaling the generic rewards to make Elites worthwhile is indeed impossible, if there is no uniqueness at all. It's already impossible to scale them to account for the time difference between short and long content, much less to consider difficulty level as well.
I never said they were designed for me specifically.. obviously.
As for a Dev Quote.. how's this?
Source.
Your pathetic attempt at an insult aside, the rest of your post is so insanely idiotic that there is no way it is anything other then a troll attempt.. and a pathetic one at that. You really need it explained to you that Elites are supposed to be hard? Really?
If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.
It's rather impossible to disagree with this.
Fair point indeed.
The best way I can explain that is.. it's cryptic.. not everything makes sense.
That aside, the intent of Elite Queues is obvious.. it's even discernible from the name 'Elite.' I think most players would know that new or under geared players should probably not queue for something called 'Elite.'
Arguing semantics is not always correct.
Fair point indeed.
And what's worse, Normal and Advanced tend to differ from each other (and sometimes radically even). I don't play Elites, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Advanced and Elites are not the same either. 'Hard to become proficient, when different the versions are.'