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Queues/TFOs, and why most of them don't get played

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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.


    It's rather impossible to disagree with this. :) 'Elites', by their very definition, are not meant for the general population. If they were, they wouldn't be 'Elites.'
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    How do we become "proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events" which don't HAVE Normal or Advanced versions? (Korfez).

    Fair point indeed.

    The best way I can explain that is.. it's cryptic.. not everything makes sense. :smiley:

    That aside, the intent of Elite Queues is obvious.. it's even discernible from the name 'Elite.' I think most players would know that new or under geared players should probably not queue for something called 'Elite.'
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.


    It's rather impossible to disagree with this. :) 'Elites', by their very definition, are not meant for the general population. If they were, they wouldn't be 'Elites.'
    Like "Advanced?" That they nerfed into the ground because not everyone could complete them every time.

    Arguing semantics is not always correct.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    And I suppose you have dev quotes on the design intent on Elites being to serve you specifically?

    I never said they were designed for me specifically.. obviously.

    As for a Dev Quote.. how's this?
    Elite – The Best of the Best

    Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.

    Source.


    Your pathetic attempt at an insult aside, the rest of your post is so insanely idiotic that there is no way it is anything other then a troll attempt.. and a pathetic one at that. You really need it explained to you that Elites are supposed to be hard? Really?

    If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.

    You have to admit though, that quote (the Dev one) is misleading.

    How do we become "proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events" which don't HAVE Normal or Advanced versions? (Korfez).


    Fair point indeed.

    And what's worse, Normal and Advanced tend to differ from each other (and sometimes radically even). I don't play Elites, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Advanced and Elites are not the same either. 'Hard to become proficient, when different the versions are.'
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    That aside, the intent of Elite Queues is obvious.. it's even discernible from the name 'Elite.' I think most players would know that new or under geared players should probably not queue for something called 'Elite.'
    Or "Advanced" for that matter. Cryptic disagreed. But that's not the point. The point is they're not meant to exist just for laughs with no worthwhile rewards. I'd explain it in detail but since you ignored me in favor of hurling insults the first time, not gonna bother.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.


    It's rather impossible to disagree with this. :) 'Elites', by their very definition, are not meant for the general population. If they were, they wouldn't be 'Elites.'
    Like "Advanced?" That they nerfed into the ground because not everyone could complete them every time.


    That only shows Advanceds were aptly named. :) (In that they couldn't be done by everyone) If they hadn't nerfed those, 2/3rd of the queue levels would have been inaccessible to the player base: something no business can afford, really. The only thing they didn't change was the name 'Advanced.'

    Also, with Dilithium Rising, Geko made it *very* clear (in several podcasts), that Elites were going to be truly for Elite players only, and were not meant for everyone.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    You're the only one making insults here.

    Typical.. throw an insult.. get an insult back and then play the victim.
    warpangel wrote: »
    I'd explain it in detail but since you ignored me in favor of hurling insults the first time, not gonna bother.

    You don't want a fight.. don't start one.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    To be honest, there are players capable of completing Korfez. It's not a huge number, but those people exist. Thus, the very notion that you *need* to have a normal/advanced version for a queue to become proficient in elite is ridiculous.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    a
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.


    It's rather impossible to disagree with this. :) 'Elites', by their very definition, are not meant for the general population. If they were, they wouldn't be 'Elites.'
    Like "Advanced?" That they nerfed into the ground because not everyone could complete them every time.


    That only shows Advanceds were aptly named. :) (In that they couldn't be done by everyone) If they hadn't nerfed those, 2/3rd of the queue levels would have been inaccessible to the player base: something no business can afford, really. The only thing they didn't change was the name 'Advanced.'
    Why not? What's it to Cryptic if some part of the playerbase plays Normal instead? Every other game I play does exactly that and can afford it just fine. It gives players reason to improve, that improvement lets them do more things, get better rewards. Not like Advanced was all that hard anyway. All they ever had to do was direct players to a difficulty level matching their resources and skillset.
    Also, with Dilithium Rising, Geko made it *very* clear (in several podcasts), that Elites were going to be truly for Elite players only, and were not meant for everyone.
    Geko's idea of what an Elite player is may be different than ours. All the Elites were puggable at DR release, as long as you didn't get newbies wandering in by accident (because there were no requirements to unlocking them...and still aren't). Some of them were rewards-optimal. Others less so. This was, of course, before the alerts got the all-marks.

    And that's still not the point. Where are the quotes for Elites being meant to have low rewards and to appeal only to those players who aren't in it for the rewards?
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »

    Elites being meant to have low rewards and to appeal only to those players who aren't in it for the rewards?

    No one claimed that it's meant to be that way. Players not caring about rewards in elite is just the result of elites not offering any kind of meaningful rewards, cause most elite-ready players already have enough of every mark and are not in a dire need of dilithium anymore either. For me personally, Salvaged Tech is the biggest draw of elite queues, reward wise (but yeah, it's not a huge selling point either).
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    So if elites truly are designed only for a tiny number of players should the most effort in game design not be going into the advanced and normal queues?
    No point trying to dream up changes to make elite queues more appealing if the VAST majority of players are really only within the realms of advanced capable.
    So if anything it makes more sense to ignore elite queues for the time being and think about why people aren’t playing the rest of the content. Banging on about dps scores or elite players is a bit of a distraction as only 10% or less players are affected but that side of things. So things like elite fail conditions, dps margins and channels do t really help encourage participation at lower tower. They are in effect exceptions in the game environment.
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »

    Elites being meant to have low rewards and to appeal only to those players who aren't in it for the rewards?

    No one claimed that it's meant to be that way. Players not caring about rewards in elite is just the result of elites not offering any kind of meaningful rewards, cause most elite-ready players already have enough of every mark and are not in a dire need of dilithium anymore either. For me personally, Salvaged Tech is the biggest draw of elite queues, reward wise (but yeah, it's not a huge selling point either).
    Right. Which is what I meant with Elites being abandoned to their fate. It's not that Elites are designed for players who don't care about rewards, it's that the relatively poor rewards drive away the players that do care about them. Something that should be changed.

    If Elites were worth playing (for the players who care about rewards), people would need gear to do it. That in turn would make lower level content more worth playing, to acquire that gear. It all chains up, reason to play. Then all the queues need is some uniqueness back to the reward and they're all full again.

    But as long as Normal/Advanced can be done with sticks and rocks and Elite doesn't reward anything you couldn't get better, faster, easier on Normal/Advanced...there's not much need to play anything at all. For the people who care about rewards. Filling up the daily dil quota doesn't encourage much diversity, even for those players who can't get it all from Admiralty.
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    So if elites truly are designed only for a tiny number of players should the most effort in game design not be going into the advanced and normal queues?
    No point trying to dream up changes to make elite queues more appealing if the VAST majority of players are really only within the realms of advanced capable.
    So if anything it makes more sense to ignore elite queues for the time being and think about why people aren’t playing the rest of the content. Banging on about dps scores or elite players is a bit of a distraction as only 10% or less players are affected but that side of things. So things like elite fail conditions, dps margins and channels do t really help encourage participation at lower tower. They are in effect exceptions in the game environment.

    My proposed changes would affect also both advanced and normal content.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Well let’s just drop talking about elite stuff all the time for a second.
    Because the game starts at normal and advanced so the majority of players are at that level. That’s where encouragement of players is needed, elites will sort themselves out.
    Why do I say this? Because by the time someone is ready for elite they will probably be able to join circles of players like yourself who can play such content. The elites are after all not meant for everyone so by the time someone really is ready for them they should have encountered people interested in them.

    The advanced and normal queues is where the effort is really needed. That’s where people encounter their first endgame content. It’s where they will spend most of the time gaining marks etc to buy stuff. Encourage players into queues at that level and they’ll naturally progress onto elites.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    warpangel wrote: »
    a
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.


    It's rather impossible to disagree with this. :) 'Elites', by their very definition, are not meant for the general population. If they were, they wouldn't be 'Elites.'
    Like "Advanced?" That they nerfed into the ground because not everyone could complete them every time.


    That only shows Advanceds were aptly named. :) (In that they couldn't be done by everyone) If they hadn't nerfed those, 2/3rd of the queue levels would have been inaccessible to the player base: something no business can afford, really. The only thing they didn't change was the name 'Advanced.'
    Why not? What's it to Cryptic if some part of the playerbase plays Normal instead? Every other game I play does exactly that and can afford it just fine.

    You can't just say "2/3rd of this game will be out of reach to you." That's just psychology. Especially in a casual game, like STO, ppl don't want a constant reminder they're simply inadequate for most of what the game has to offer. They want to feel they can, overall, participate (and then will accept, that maybe Elites aren't for them).
    Also, with Dilithium Rising, Geko made it *very* clear (in several podcasts), that Elites were going to be truly for Elite players only, and were not meant for everyone.
    Geko's idea of what an Elite player is may be different than ours. All the Elites were puggable at DR release, as long as you didn't get newbies wandering in by accident

    DR had many initial weave-errors (to out it mildly). Some Advanced queues, for instance, were way too difficult, at start. By 'accident' (according to Cryptic, though the cynic in me believes Geko had done this on purpose, to spur us to do the whole Upgrade spiel). So, eventually toning those down a bit (after we did most all of our Upgrade spending already) was only fair. It was at that time, iirc, that Geko got into a bit of a p*ssing contest, with top DPS-ers (not being able to cope with the fact they were *still* beating his harder content, like childplay), that he announced a new Korfez, and that these other new Elites would become truly undoable for the vast majority of players.
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  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    DR had many intial weave-errors (to out it mildly). Some Advanced queues, for instance, were way too difficult, at start. By 'accident' (according to Cryptic, though the cynic in me believes Geko had done this on purpose, to spur us to do the whole Upgrade spiel). So, eventually toning those down a bit (after we did most all of our Upgrade spending already) was only fair.

    While I don't remember that time quite well, cause I was only a 10k-er back then, I do think they made advanced queues too easy by removing every way to completely fail them.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,536 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    To be honest, there are players capable of completing Korfez. It's not a huge number, but those people exist. Thus, the very notion that you *need* to have a normal/advanced version for a queue to become proficient in elite is ridiculous.

    Perhaps - but whilst I don't disagree as such, it is an interesting point.

    As you say, there are players who can complete Korfez. But the fact is they can only have learnt how to complete Korfez by actually playing it - and since it doesn't come in any other flavour, they had to have learnt/played it on Elite.
    For some, that's a pretty steep learning curve.
    I mean, whilst I've been driving for about 20 years I don't think for one moment that if someone dropped me in a Formula 1 car I'd be able to drive it. But I probably would if I'd been given some experience in a fast sports car, followed by an F2 car, before progressing to the F1 car.

  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Well let’s just drop talking about elite stuff all the time for a second.
    Because the game starts at normal and advanced so the majority of players are at that level. That’s where encouragement of players is needed, elites will sort themselves out.
    Why do I say this? Because by the time someone is ready for elite they will probably be able to join circles of players like yourself who can play such content. The elites are after all not meant for everyone so by the time someone really is ready for them they should have encountered people interested in them.

    The advanced and normal queues is where the effort is really needed. That’s where people encounter their first endgame content. It’s where they will spend most of the time gaining marks etc to buy stuff. Encourage players into queues at that level and they’ll naturally progress onto elites.

    This is all fair.

    Just to clarify, I don't expect any real work to be put into Elites. I understand that they don't apply to the largest section of the player base. Cryptic is going to put the time where it serves best and I get that. I don't expect Elite Rewards to be worth while for the reason Tunebreaker said earlier. If you are geared up to the point where you can handle a queue like Fez or even HSE you're past the point where you need these rewards. All I meant by my comment is that those of us that do Elites know we're not going to get a big reward out of it and we have accepted that. We do it for the fun of it and so that we can play together as a team, that's it.

    You're 100% right, Cryptic should put the focus on the Advanced Queues. These are the queues for the 'masses' and it's the most logical place to put the focus. As said though, the suggestions in the original post are not difficulty specific at all, they will help all queues. None of us want to come across as trying to be selfish or promote our own agenda. We're not looking to just improve the content we personally play based on our own personal standards, the original post is very clear in it's intent to implement a global change in the interest of helping players across the board.

    The only thing this thread was designed to be about is making content more fun and accessible for everyone. It was never about Elites specifically, and it's perfectly fine to focus discussion on the majority.

    "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

    We accept this.. it's only logical. We would like to see the improvements applied at all difficulty levels.
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  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    To be honest, there are players capable of completing Korfez. It's not a huge number, but those people exist. Thus, the very notion that you *need* to have a normal/advanced version for a queue to become proficient in elite is ridiculous.

    Perhaps - but whilst I don't disagree as such, it is an interesting point.

    As you say, there are players who can complete Korfez. But the fact is they can only have learnt how to complete Korfez by actually playing it - and since it doesn't come in any other flavour, they had to have learnt/played it on Elite.
    For some, that's a pretty steep learning curve.
    I mean, whilst I've been driving for about 20 years I don't think for one moment that if someone dropped me in a Formula 1 car I'd be able to drive it. But I probably would if I'd been given some experience in a fast sports car, followed by an F2 car, before progressing to the F1 car.

    For once, I agree with @patrickngo here.
    Korfez (and places like it) should be where you apply that knowledge you've gained-like a final exam that doesn't just copy off the textbook, but instead requires you to apply knowledge gained in earlier stages.

    I mean, just dropping someone into F1 would have some serious ramifications. But it's a game. At worst, you'll pug it and get yelled at. If you haven't done any other elites, it's not a nice thing to do, but even if you decide to be a prick, it doesn't end in physical harm to anyone.

    And even then, it would ideally be a similar progression in STO. You'll first master normal queues, then play through most of the advanced content and then start to look at elite. And preferably approach elites with a group of friends/fleetmates, so there will be no hard feelings and you can all just laugh at eachother when you mess something up and fail.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    DR had many intial weave-errors (to out it mildly). Some Advanced queues, for instance, were way too difficult, at start. By 'accident' (according to Cryptic, though the cynic in me believes Geko had done this on purpose, to spur us to do the whole Upgrade spiel). So, eventually toning those down a bit (after we did most all of our Upgrade spending already) was only fair.

    While I don't remember that time quite well, cause I was only a 10k-er back then, I do think they made advanced queues too easy by removing every way to completely fail them.


    Yes, that is typical Cryptic. :) They tend to go from one extreme to the other.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    I may not like the removal of fail conditions from Advanced, but I have to admit.. I get it.

    The original intent was good, Normal Queues are brain dead easy and guaranteed success. They're intended to learn how to do the queues for beginners.

    The Advanced Queues are harder and present the possibility of failure. They are designed to be a step up from Normal. Maybe not an extreme step, but a step none the less with the possibility of failure with better rewards.

    The problem came in the rewards. You can't offer a ton of rewards for normal. If you do this, what happens is you get well geared players that storm this content because they can cut through it in seconds, get their loot and leave. To avoid this, they made the rewards very very petty for Normal. What this did however is just made it so that no one of any level played normal and everyone got funneled into Advanced. Now you have a mix of experienced and new players all lumped together. Sometimes the experienced players were able to carry the new players, but this usually didn't result in the new player learning much of anything. In fact, the opposite often happened where players were finding constant success and not realizing they were being carried. This leads to players thinking they are doing fine when they're not.

    Then there was the big problem, inexperienced players causing Advanced to fail. This caused the backlash because players were getting frustrated with queues failing because people didn't know what they were doing. The inexperienced players throwing off the queues was never a problem Cryptic intended so they did the normal 'band aid' approach and removed the fail conditions.

    I have to admit.. I sympathize with Cryptic here because I honestly don't have a solution for this problem. How do you make Normal rewarding enough for new players to play it while not leaving it open to exploitation from well geared players? Ideally, you want to attract new and under geared players to normals, and more experienced and a little better geared players into advanced. The problem is, this is a lot harder then it sounds.

    I honestly don't know a good way to do it.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    I may not like the removal of fail conditions from Advanced, but I have to admit.. I get it.

    The original intent was good, Normal Queues are brain dead easy and guaranteed success. They're intended to learn how to do the queues for beginners.

    The Advanced Queues are harder and present the possibility of failure. They are designed to be a step up from Normal. Maybe not an extreme step, but a step none the less with the possibility of failure with better rewards.

    The problem came in the rewards. You can't offer a ton of rewards for normal. If you do this, what happens is you get well geared players that storm this content because they can cut through it in seconds, get their loot and leave. To avoid this, they made the rewards very very petty for Normal. What this did however is just made it so that no one of any level played normal and everyone got funneled into Advanced. Now you have a mix of experienced and new players all lumped together. Sometimes the experienced players were able to carry the new players, but this usually didn't result in the new player learning much of anything. In fact, the opposite often happened where players were finding constant success and not realizing they were being carried. This leads to players thinking they are doing fine when they're not.

    Then there was the big problem, inexperienced players causing Advanced to fail. This caused the backlash because players were getting frustrated with queues failing because people didn't know what they were doing. The inexperienced players throwing off the queues was never a problem Cryptic intended so they did the normal 'band aid' approach and removed the fail conditions.

    I have to admit.. I sympathize with Cryptic here because I honestly don't have a solution for this problem. How do you make Normal rewarding enough for new players to play it while not leaving it open to exploitation from well geared players? Ideally, you want to attract new and under geared players to normals, and more experienced and a little better geared players into advanced. The problem is, this is a lot harder then it sounds.

    I honestly don't know a good way to do it.


    ^^ Thas was one of the most insightful analyses I've come across here of late! There's never an 'Insightful' button when you need one. :)
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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,536 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    And I suppose you have dev quotes on the design intent on Elites being to serve you specifically?

    I never said they were designed for me specifically.. obviously.

    As for a Dev Quote.. how's this?
    Elite – The Best of the Best

    Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.

    Source.


    Your pathetic attempt at an insult aside, the rest of your post is so insanely idiotic that there is no way it is anything other then a troll attempt.. and a pathetic one at that. You really need it explained to you that Elites are supposed to be hard? Really?

    If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.

    You have to admit though, that quote (the Dev one) is misleading.

    How do we become "proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events" which don't HAVE Normal or Advanced versions? (Korfez).


    Fair point indeed.

    And what's worse, Normal and Advanced tend to differ from each other (and sometimes radically even). I don't play Elites, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Advanced and Elites are not the same either. 'Hard to become proficient, when different the versions are.'

    Have to agree this isn't always consistent.
    I mean, I have friends who blast their way through ISA in no time at all but oddly find Tholian Red Alert challenging.
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    I may not like the removal of fail conditions from Advanced, but I have to admit.. I get it.

    The original intent was good, Normal Queues are brain dead easy and guaranteed success. They're intended to learn how to do the queues for beginners.

    The Advanced Queues are harder and present the possibility of failure. They are designed to be a step up from Normal. Maybe not an extreme step, but a step none the less with the possibility of failure with better rewards.

    The problem came in the rewards. You can't offer a ton of rewards for normal. If you do this, what happens is you get well geared players that storm this content because they can cut through it in seconds, get their loot and leave. To avoid this, they made the rewards very very petty for Normal. What this did however is just made it so that no one of any level played normal and everyone got funneled into Advanced. Now you have a mix of experienced and new players all lumped together. Sometimes the experienced players were able to carry the new players, but this usually didn't result in the new player learning much of anything. In fact, the opposite often happened where players were finding constant success and not realizing they were being carried. This leads to players thinking they are doing fine when they're not.

    Then there was the big problem, inexperienced players causing Advanced to fail. This caused the backlash because players were getting frustrated with queues failing because people didn't know what they were doing. The inexperienced players throwing off the queues was never a problem Cryptic intended so they did the normal 'band aid' approach and removed the fail conditions.

    I have to admit.. I sympathize with Cryptic here because I honestly don't have a solution for this problem. How do you make Normal rewarding enough for new players to play it while not leaving it open to exploitation from well geared players? Ideally, you want to attract new and under geared players to normals, and more experienced and a little better geared players into advanced. The problem is, this is a lot harder then it sounds.

    I honestly don't know a good way to do it.

    What could've been done, imo, was to apply some sort of short skill-check in form of a solo mission, that needed to be completed in order to gain access to advanced queues. And similarly to elite.

    Now, people will say that "but muh trinkets I can only get from advanced queues!". However, Fleet gear, as well as Nukara and Romulan rep offerings are completely enough to make yourself viable for adv, so I can't see any problems with players being left out, if they're willing to try even just a bit.

    But whatever, I believe the train has already left in order for that solution to get applied, sadly.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    I have to admit.. I sympathize with Cryptic here because I honestly don't have a solution for this problem. How do you make Normal rewarding enough for new players to play it while not leaving it open to exploitation from well geared players? Ideally, you want to attract new and under geared players to normals, and more experienced and a little better geared players into advanced. The problem is, this is a lot harder then it sounds.

    I honestly don't know a good way to do it.


    Well, one way, albeit draconian (not including RA's) is to simply bar better players from doing Normals. "Reach lv 50? No more Normals for you!" And then step up the rewards for Normals a bit. But I can already see the forum rage, if they ever did that. :)
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,672 Community Moderator
    I do think they made advanced queues too easy by removing every way to completely fail them.

    I disagree to a point. I wouldn't mind seeing fail conditions on Elites... however... with the vast majority of the playerbase playing Advanced... having fail conditions is a recipe for disaster. I speak from experience.

    One of my early Advanced runs of Infected back when DR hit... I had someone from a... CERTAIN FLEET we all know... decide to go "hunting for his spec point". The rest of us... being the veterans that we were, went off to the left per normal operation procedure for Infected. The Spec Point Hunter, lets call him Bozo, decided to go right and pop a Generator right off the bat, then said "Nope. Not here". So there we were... SCRAMBLING to keep from failing... because Bozo decided to be a Troll and fail us on purpose.

    In the end... we got the standard 30 minute lock out... no reward... and in general just a crapload of frustration for our efforts to complete Infected of all things. All because Bozo wanted to fail us on purpose for teh lulz.

    Fail conditions just ASK for abuse in this form. For a game full of casuals... this is a problem that added to the uproar on the forums. I remember the fires on the forums during Delta Rising...

    Never underestimate the ability of a Troll to ruin your day. They will FIND ways to do so. And once they do... they will exploit it all to hell for their own amusement and to the frustration of others around them.

    So as I said... I disagree to a point. Fails in Elite is fine because its SUPPOSED to be a challenge. Fails on Advanced... are just too easy to Troll the entire community with.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    DR had many intial weave-errors (to out it mildly). Some Advanced queues, for instance, were way too difficult, at start. By 'accident' (according to Cryptic, though the cynic in me believes Geko had done this on purpose, to spur us to do the whole Upgrade spiel). So, eventually toning those down a bit (after we did most all of our Upgrade spending already) was only fair.
    While I don't remember that time quite well, cause I was only a 10k-er back then, I do think they made advanced queues too easy by removing every way to completely fail them.
    I remember.

    Me and several of my friends who regularly teamed to do the old STFs tried Advanced Mirror day 1 in T5s and level 50 characters.... we got curbstomped. Mainly because of how much firepower it took to kill everything. Taking down a single battleship mob required us to stick together... and you NEED to split up for this one.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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