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Queues/TFOs, and why most of them don't get played

Recently, we have seen Cryptic trying to revitalize Queues (rebranded into TFOs). So, I thought real hard why I don't get myself into some of the TFOs, and when I ran out of thoughts, asked several of my friends to share their opinions too. So while some parts of my post and criticisms are not exactly my own personal thoughts, they are absolutely a concern shared by multiple people in game.

And actually, it really boils down to that most of the offerings in game are just repetitive, tedious and sometimes downright annoying after multiple times of playing. Rewards, as they currently are, are more of a mid-tier problem, since while obviously players are driven to queues that give out the most rewards for least effort, ultimately it doesn't start to matter once you have solid fleet of Admirality ships to get your daily dil and thousands of marks just waiting in your Assets tab. Rewards surely play their part, but I don't want to discuss those in this post - it's about mission designs themselves.

So, apart from poor rewards, what makes the queues so unappealing? Mostly timegates, or bad mechanics. All of the popular queues (sans Swarm, but I predict it will die down soon) are totally case of "how good team is" = "how fast you complete the mission". There's no senseless waiting or at worst cases trying to fight the game rather than NPCs. But that's minority of the queues in game.

Rather, so many queues in game have timers that you simply have to wait to run out, before you either progress to next stage or mission can end. Even worse, that horrible practice has also crept into latest storyline missions. And the mandatory timers are not just annoying, they are also anti-immersive. As one of my friends said: "if a fleet is invading, they don't gain more ships just because you can kill them extra fast;
or realistically they wouldn't, anyway". Yet we see this practice in so many queues today. And at the same time, it doesn't give you any incentive to play well, cause you know the mission will be over in X minutes anyway.

Another extremely annoying feature is how either being shot at or shooting yourself completely breaks almost every interaction on missions, whether it is closing a portal, transport or whatever. Thus, an incredibly good QoL change would be if at least being shot at wouldn’t cancel said interactions. Said mechanic feels just to be thrown in to annoy the hell out of everyone, while actually not adding a layer of challenge.

Thus, I, with a little help from my friends, compiled a list of worst offenders, and thought what might be good ideas to perhaps revitalize those. I'm not saying that all of my suggestions are perfect, but something needs to change and just complaining and yelling "fix it now!!!" while not offering anything at all didn't seem very right thing to do either. Also, I apologize if I left something important out, but it's open forum, you readers can always add your own thoughts.

Assault on Terok Nor – console sequence is unintuitive, there's no real indication which consoles might be the right ones, so it becomes mindless running around and pressing F. Also other players can mess up your progress.
Possible fix: Keep 3 consoles only you need to activate in correct sequence, and mission progresses as soon as one player gets it right. Activating wrong console resets sequence only for that player, not for the entire team.
Alternative possible fix: If a logic puzzle is absolutely needed, maybe replace the console run with something similar to Quark’s Lucky Seven (where Rom hacks Odo’s computer), that only 1 person needs to complete.

Azure Nebula Rescue – ideally, it’s 12 minutes of doing exactly the same stuff, and the reward is only determined by luck - not very good mission design if you ask me. Current state is doing something for 3 minutes and waiting 9 for nothing to happen - it's horribly bugged and needs to be fixed ASAP.
Possible fix: there are 4 asteroid bases, and 4 classes of ships to be rescued. Assign one ship to each base and have the mission to end as soon as you’ve rescued 2 ships from each class. Autofail when you don’t manage to do so in 12 minutes.

Battle of Procyon 5 – same TRIBBLE 3 times in a row. I know you wanted to make it look like the actual “battle of Procyon 5”, but it just feels so dumb and unappealing.
Possible fix: Cut parts 1 and 2 entirely and change the interaction mechanic per my interaction paragraph in this post, and it could possibly become one of my favourite missions in game.

Binary Circuit – mission is absolutely awesome, but the race mechanic between 2 teams (for some unexplained reason) + required amount of 10 players can be offputting.
Possible fix: Make it a single team, 5 player mission.

Borg Disconnected
Possible fix: Make the stage progress as soon as the team manages to save 15 disconnected Borg vessels.

Counterpoint – actually, this mission doesn’t seem to have a big problem with getting players, so probably not a big priority, but for QoL improvement…
Possible fix: Have the mission autoprogress as soon as the team has closed 5 portals and transported 15 troops.

Days of Doom – I know it’s integral part of the mission, so I have a hard time of coming up with a meaningful change, but 10 minutes of waiting until Scotty finishes his core is incredibly unpopular among large part of players.

Dranuur Gauntlet – this would be a fun mission, but it suffers from what's possibly the worst execution in the game. Killing enemies faster just means enemies spawn faster and you get TRIBBLE faster. And the mobs move right to and past the satellites and will spawncamp the players, and when you're not quick enough, they'll spawn more waves whether or not you finished the current one.
Special comment from a tank friend: tanking doesn’t help at all, it's impossible to draw fire away from defense satellites.
Possible fix: Fix the aggro and design the mission to autoprogress as soon as you’ve cleared X number of enemy groups. Fix the respawn location so that players aren’t under fire from all three groups as they re-enter. And make it possible to heal the defense satellites.

Gateway to Grethor
Possible fix: mission progresses to boss stage as soon as 15 transports get through. Autofail when they don’t after allocated time.

Herald Sphere
Possible fix: Stage 2 progresses as soon as you kill 5 Herald attack groups. Autofail when you can’t do it in 4 minutes or when 15 ships get through. Stage 3 - fix the bug with command ships and have it autoprogress as soon as you kill 1, maybe 2 groups of herald forces.
Link to bug

Storming the Spire – probably my personal favourite mission, but so many of my friends are complaing about timegates, so here goes.
Possible fix: Mission autoprogresses as soon as you get 50% control of the spire. Autofail when you fail to do that in 10 minutes or when Voth get more than 150 troops.

Swarm - 3rd stage is too long and gets repetitive.
Possible fix: Mission autocompletes when X number of transports get through.

Undine Infiltration – mission was very popular until the fire extinguish mechanic was changed and turned into an incredibly bugged state.
Possible fix: Revert it back to the previous state.
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Comments

  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    I agree with you on all parts.

    Thank you very much for putting so much effort into a post to help the DEVs to make general teamed PvE more exciting.
    It is really too bad that Cryptic has such a hard time to figure things out. I saw the reason for all those artificial time gates in the past where there was some concern that top players could DIL-weed the queue list too fast but that is pretty much obsolete by now.

    No matter how much DPS you have got, no PvE reward in game could compete with the admiralty system anyway so that brings PvE down to: FUN & Marks Since the latter is just a question of time it is realy only about fun in the end.

    Getting rid of the annoying conditions would undoubtedly help to revitalize PvE and your ideas are once again spot on.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Man, I so wanted to make a post like this, but never was able to really articulate the crux of my issues in such an eloquent manner.. so thank you for this!

    I totally agree on all points, just a few comments..

    All of the popular queues (sans Swarm, but I predict it will die down soon) are totally case of "how good team is" = "how fast you complete the mission". There's no senseless waiting or at worst cases trying to fight the game rather than NPCs. But that's minority of the queues in game.

    The only reason this mission is popular is because of the lack of options for Gamma Marks. The Gamma BZ is boring and this queue is only popular because the alternative is even worse. As soon as Gamma Marks are added to Red Alerts this queue will never pop again.. ever.

    Another extremely annoying feature is how either being shot at or shooting yourself completely breaks almost every interaction on missions, whether it is closing a portal, transport or whatever. Thus, an incredibly good QoL change would be if at least being shot at wouldn't cancel said interactions. Said mechanic feels just to be thrown in to annoy the hell out of everyone, while actually not adding a layer of challenge.

    My god.. yes. I get it.. if I attack, it breaks my action.. I am cool with that. I can't target enemies and engage in combat while also closing a rift.. fine. But if I choose to hold my attack and just try and take the damage while I concentrate on the objective.. I should be able to do that. It will be up to me to try and keep myself alive long enough to achieve the objective. If they want to stop me.. they have to kill me. Being shot at shouldn't cancel the action.

    As for your list of proposed fixes, I like them.. all of them.

    This is really great feedback, and again.. thank you for putting it all together. Very well done.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,387 Arc User
    you guys keep saying Admiralty this Admiralty that, but you are not thinking for a LOT of players. I know more than a few who have the ships you get for free, they have not bought anything from the C-store. it's damn hard to do admirtalty when you have only 6-10 ships
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  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User

    The only reason this mission is popular is because of the lack of options for Gamma Marks. The Gamma BZ is boring and this queue is only popular because the alternative is even worse. As soon as Gamma Marks are added to Red Alerts this queue will never pop again.. ever.

    Exactly.

    And thanks for the kind words, both of you, it wasn't an easy task to remind myself what exactly happened on every map, and then trying to think of a meaningful solution (Choro especially was incredibly helpful in helping me map all the missions and problems within). And I still think the list could be bigger, I mean, there are more missions that don't get much playtime, but it's at least a start. Hopefully someone with power to change something notices.
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    you guys keep saying Admiralty this Admiralty that, but you are not thinking for a LOT of players. I know more than a few who have the ships you get for free, they have not bought anything from the C-store. it's damn hard to do admirtalty when you have only 6-10 ships

    How is this relevant in any way to the discussion?
    Never mind, perhaps I spoke out too hastily. I apologize.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    you guys keep saying Admiralty this Admiralty that, but you are not thinking for a LOT of players. I know more than a few who have the ships you get for free, they have not bought anything from the C-store. it's damn hard to do admirtalty when you have only 6-10 ships

    You make a fair point, and believe me.. I sympathize.

    Eventually though, through events alone, players will eventually build up an armada to at least make Admiralty profitable. As far as I know, all the Epic quality cards have been give away items from events and low tier dilithium ships can also be surprisingly effective in Admiralty. Yes, it's much harder.. you're right and it will take time for a F2P player to be able to get anything from Admiralty.

    For those people, they will need rewards from queues. They will be driven more intently by the time to reward payoff.. but if anything, the suggestions of the OP will help these people most of all. Those of us that have mountains of dilithium and all the ships we want don't play these queues for rewards, but the players that don't have these resources need to. The suggestions posted will make these queues more popular, make them pop and give these players others to help them get what they need.

    His suggestions help the struggling players far more then those of us who don't need the help. We just want to have fun and this covers us as well. It's a 100% win/win.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • ussvaliant#6064 ussvaliant Member Posts: 1,006 Arc User
    I've mentioned it before dilithium being the most needed currency in the game is a huge contributor to empty queues. Once you complete a rep and now no longer have to farm marks the focus changes to dilithium.
    People will find the fastest most efficient way of farming dil and its not in the queues i can make my daily 8k by simply playing Japori/Acamar and Carraya which takes less than 18 mins as an example.


    Dil is needed for


    1. Fleet Holdings
    2. Purchase of Fleet Gear
    3. Purchase of Reputation Gear
    4. Purchase of Zen from the Dil Exchange to use in the C-Store
    5. Upgrading Gear (Minus Omega and Ultimate Techs)
    6. Purchasing Phoenix Packs
    7. Purchasing higher tier ships from the ship vendor

    Unless you spend real money and use the dil exchange to convert Zen to dil you cannot do any of the above without dil. Its part of the free to play design unfortunately.


    All the other statements above about why the queues are empty are valid but the need for the pink rock is def a contributor to those with limited budget.
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  • bendalekbendalek Member Posts: 1,781 Arc User
    Few other suggestions (one from the Tier 6 Reps thread) and other random thoughts.
    Make Rep marks (and possibly Fleet Marks) either Account Bound, or maybe even Un-bound (i.e sellable on the exchange) This might convince players with extremely high level and max geared toons, to run TFO's to fuel alts and/or EC.
    And together with that, put them back into the boxes so that we can store them for later opening/sale on event weekends.

    Add a ground and Battle Zone, similar to the Voth/Kobali ones to ALL reps, with multiple single or teamed areas and found events. Even now, as old as it is, the Voth Ground BZ is still frequented by lot's of players, because it's fun, not too difficult for loners or teams, and it's a good way to "farm" Marks/Dil/XP.
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  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    There's a lot of reasons the queues are not being played. And i think I've seen people post threads for months, if not years on this topic with nobody paying much attention from the Dev side.

    OP is correct that rewards are not the only thing causing this but i'd argue they are a MAJOR part of it. Those of us who've been here for years may well have 100+ Admiralty ships and 10's of thousands of marks/dil saved up so see rewards as no issue, but there is a massive percentage of players i'd imagine for whom rewards are important.
    There's just no way to ignore the fact that things like ISA and CCA get played most because they are quick and easy and thus reward a disproportionate amount of resources for the time/effort required.
    In the grind-heavy game we have right now where everything costs dilithium in some form, it is no wonder people gravitate towards the easiest way to get those much needed rewards. And the game is catering towards these people as well!
    Just look at the Red Alerts with their universal rewards, you don't even need to fight most enemies because you can get all your rewards for every rep (bar Gamma) in one quick easy place. The RA's have become the Amazon of rewards and nobody bothers going to shop for them elsewhere with such an easy place to acquire them.

    Now on top of that reward issue there are others sure. As OP mentioned there's issues with bugs in queues, or questionable timers and mechanics that seem to be designed to simply keep us in a place longer than we really need to be:
    • I don't think content like queues should be able to be completed in merely a couple of minutes, but i do think that a decently made queue won't need a timer; it will take 10-15 mins and the players won't notice the timer if it's well enough designed. Create a mission with a timed portion in such as way we don't notice it's actually timed. Not just with endless waves of baddies to kill but with some content that keeps us engaged and interested in what is going on. That end fight in Home is a good example because it clearly is timed but does anyone really notice it with all the intense combat, friendly character chatter, cutscences etc?
    • The interrupt mechanic i know is a bit controversial but i'm in favour of it staying tbh. It's one of the very few mechanics that affects even normal difficulty where some sort of team play or careful use of abilities/traits actually helps you out. Too much of STO is a solo affair and if players need to work in pairs to give one guy a clear run to close a portal, or if a players needs to slot Attack Pattern Expertise to do similar, i don't think it's a bad thing.
    • Content itself is very shallow. What i mean is that nearly everything is about "kill X number of baddies to progress" and there's little reason to not play for the heaviest hitting ship build you can. It forces the players down a very limited road of choices really because little point to support builds or debuffers etc in the majority of play when just loading up with BFAW or CSV or whatever latest meta damage build will do everything anyway. Sure at elite things like support do help but for 99% of content they are no use and you feel like a drag on the team or are send pm's telling you you;re a leech.
    SulMatuul.png
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    I don't think content like queues should be able to be completed in merely a couple of minutes, but i do think that a decently made queue won't need a timer; it will take 10-15 mins and the players won't notice the timer if it's well enough designed. Create a mission with a timed portion in such as way we don't notice it's actually timed. Not just with endless waves of baddies to kill but with some content that keeps us engaged and interested in what is going on. That end fight in Home is a good example because it clearly is timed but does anyone really notice it with all the intense combat, friendly character chatter, cutscences etc?
    I personally found the ending of Home to be one of the most horribly tedious things to endure. Already during my initial playthrough, when we were driven to the edge of Founders' pool, I was constantly in the mood of "when is this TRIBBLE finally going to end?" So no, I would count this as an incredibly bad example. And the thing with timers is that you'll always have players who will destroy enemies sooner than others. What are you going to do then? Either throw more enemies in or have the players simply wait until timer ends - that's an incredibly bad design.
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    The interrupt mechanic i know is a bit controversial but i'm in favour of it staying tbh. It's one of the very few mechanics that affects even normal difficulty where some sort of team play or careful use of abilities/traits actually helps you out. Too much of STO is a solo affair and if players need to work in pairs to give one guy a clear run to close a portal, or if a players needs to slot Attack Pattern Expertise to do similar, i don't think it's a bad thing.
    It doesn't, at least not really much. I can run with a very good tank, but firstly aggro is probabilistic and secondly the enemies throw around so many AoE abilities that you'll have an incredibly big chance of still getting hit with something, and even if it's minor, your interaction will still get interrupted.
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Content itself is very shallow. What i mean is that nearly everything is about "kill X number of baddies to progress" and there's little reason to not play for the heaviest hitting ship build you can. It forces the players down a very limited road of choices really because little point to support builds or debuffers etc in the majority of play when just loading up with BFAW or CSV or whatever latest meta damage build will do everything anyway. Sure at elite things like support do help but for 99% of content they are no use and you feel like a drag on the team or are send pm's telling you you;re a leech.
    I sorta agree with that one, but at the same time, it's very hard to implement something that's fun and engaging and not combat related, in a game like this. Anyhow, when are we getting our No-Win Scenario back, revamped?
  • adz006adz006 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    Recently, we have seen Cryptic trying to revitalize Queues (rebranded into TFOs). So, I thought real hard why I don't get myself into some of the TFOs, and when I ran out of thoughts, asked several of my friends to share their opinions too. So while some parts of my post and criticisms are not exactly my own personal thoughts, they are absolutely a concern shared by multiple people in game.

    And actually, it really boils down to that most of the offerings in game are just repetitive, tedious and sometimes downright annoying after multiple times of playing. Rewards, as they currently are, are more of a mid-tier problem, since while obviously players are driven to queues that give out the most rewards for least effort, ultimately it doesn't start to matter once you have solid fleet of Admirality ships to get your daily dil and thousands of marks just waiting in your Assets tab. Rewards surely play their part, but I don't want to discuss those in this post - it's about mission designs themselves.

    So, apart from poor rewards, what makes the queues so unappealing? Mostly timegates, or bad mechanics. All of the popular queues (sans Swarm, but I predict it will die down soon) are totally case of "how good team is" = "how fast you complete the mission". There's no senseless waiting or at worst cases trying to fight the game rather than NPCs. But that's minority of the queues in game.

    Rather, so many queues in game have timers that you simply have to wait to run out, before you either progress to next stage or mission can end. Even worse, that horrible practice has also crept into latest storyline missions. And the mandatory timers are not just annoying, they are also anti-immersive. As one of my friends said: "if a fleet is invading, they don't gain more ships just because you can kill them extra fast;
    or realistically they wouldn't, anyway". Yet we see this practice in so many queues today. And at the same time, it doesn't give you any incentive to play well, cause you know the mission will be over in X minutes anyway.

    Another extremely annoying feature is how either being shot at or shooting yourself completely breaks almost every interaction on missions, whether it is closing a portal, transport or whatever. Thus, an incredibly good QoL change would be if at least being shot at wouldn’t cancel said interactions. Said mechanic feels just to be thrown in to annoy the hell out of everyone, while actually not adding a layer of challenge.

    Thus, I, with a little help from my friends, compiled a list of worst offenders, and thought what might be good ideas to perhaps revitalize those. I'm not saying that all of my suggestions are perfect, but something needs to change and just complaining and yelling "fix it now!!!" while not offering anything at all didn't seem very right thing to do either. Also, I apologize if I left something important out, but it's open forum, you readers can always add your own thoughts.

    Assault on Terok Nor – console sequence is unintuitive, there's no real indication which consoles might be the right ones, so it becomes mindless running around and pressing F. Also other players can mess up your progress.
    Possible fix: Keep 3 consoles only you need to activate in correct sequence, and mission progresses as soon as one player gets it right. Activating wrong console resets sequence only for that player, not for the entire team.
    Alternative possible fix: If a logic puzzle is absolutely needed, maybe replace the console run with something similar to Quark’s Lucky Seven (where Rom hacks Odo’s computer), that only 1 person needs to complete.

    Azure Nebula Rescue – ideally, it’s 12 minutes of doing exactly the same stuff, and the reward is only determined by luck - not very good mission design if you ask me. Current state is doing something for 3 minutes and waiting 9 for nothing to happen - it's horribly bugged and needs to be fixed ASAP.
    Possible fix: there are 4 asteroid bases, and 4 classes of ships to be rescued. Assign one ship to each base and have the mission to end as soon as you’ve rescued 2 ships from each class. Autofail when you don’t manage to do so in 12 minutes.

    Battle of Procyon 5 – same **** 3 times in a row. I know you wanted to make it look like the actual “battle of Procyon 5”, but it just feels so dumb and unappealing.
    Possible fix: Cut parts 1 and 2 entirely and change the interaction mechanic per my interaction paragraph in this post, and it could possibly become one of my favourite missions in game.

    Binary Circuit – mission is absolutely awesome, but the race mechanic between 2 teams (for some unexplained reason) + required amount of 10 players can be offputting.
    Possible fix: Make it a single team, 5 player mission.

    Borg Disconnected
    Possible fix: Make the stage progress as soon as the team manages to save 15 disconnected Borg vessels.

    Counterpoint – actually, this mission doesn’t seem to have a big problem with getting players, so probably not a big priority, but for QoL improvement…
    Possible fix: Have the mission autoprogress as soon as the team has closed 5 portals and transported 15 troops.

    Days of Doom – I know it’s integral part of the mission, so I have a hard time of coming up with a meaningful change, but 10 minutes of waiting until Scotty finishes his core is incredibly unpopular among large part of players.

    Dranuur Gauntlet – this would be a fun mission, but it suffers from what's possibly the worst execution in the game. Killing enemies faster just means enemies spawn faster and you get **** faster. And the mobs move right to and past the satellites and will spawncamp the players, and when you're not quick enough, they'll spawn more waves whether or not you finished the current one.
    Special comment from a tank friend: tanking doesn’t help at all, it's impossible to draw fire away from defense satellites.
    Possible fix: Fix the aggro and design the mission to autoprogress as soon as you’ve cleared X number of enemy groups. Fix the respawn location so that players aren’t under fire from all three groups as they re-enter. And make it possible to heal the defense satellites.

    Gateway to Grethor
    Possible fix: mission progresses to boss stage as soon as 15 transports get through. Autofail when they don’t after allocated time.

    Herald Sphere
    Possible fix: Stage 2 progresses as soon as you kill 5 Herald attack groups. Autofail when you can’t do it in 4 minutes or when 15 ships get through. Stage 3 - fix the bug with command ships and have it autoprogress as soon as you kill 1, maybe 2 groups of herald forces.
    Link to bug

    Storming the Spire – probably my personal favourite mission, but so many of my friends are complaing about timegates, so here goes.
    Possible fix: Mission autoprogresses as soon as you get 50% control of the spire. Autofail when you fail to do that in 10 minutes or when Voth get more than 150 troops.

    Swarm - 3rd stage is too long and gets repetitive.
    Possible fix: Mission autocompletes when X number of transports get through.

    Undine Infiltration – mission was very popular until the fire extinguish mechanic was changed and turned into an incredibly bugged state.
    Possible fix: Revert it back to the previous state.

    Dude I feel bad for you, you wasted your time and effort, just as I am typing this. Do you really think they take our feedback seriously ? The answer is no. They will milk the cash cow until she's dry.

    Sad part is that some of the player base care more about the game than some of the devs do and there's absolutely nothing you can do about I'm afraid. How many posts and complaints have there been over the years, -most of them ignored or closed(the forum mod will find any reason to do so). Every time there is a season launch there is spike of players returning, and every time they realize nothing really has changed, they've recycled the same maps x10,000 (with some minor cosmetic changes), introduced new dil sinks and steep p2w and game mechanics so boring half the players fall asleep during play.




  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    It doesn't, at least not really much. I can run with a very good tank, but firstly aggro is probabilistic and secondly the enemies throw around so many AoE abilities that you'll have an incredibly big chance of still getting hit with something, and even if it's minor, your interaction will still get interrupted.

    Honestly I've never had an issue with it. I can the trait from the Pathfinder that gives temp. hitpoints when using a shield heal, or there's Attack Pattern Expertise from Pilot spec that does similar when using attack patterns.
    Although it's not much I feel having at least something that makes players think beyond just "how much DPS can my ship spit out" and maybe just a little bit of "hmmm, maybe i should prepare for some interactions in this mission, don't want to be interrupted, i'll slot X trait" is a good thing.

    A lot of players whine about the game being too easy, or having little challenge, and some even want solo PVE queues. So i always find it odd that people begrudge tiny things like the interact disruption considering it's creating a challenge for them to overcome. Don't call for nerfs to a mechanic, find a way to beat it.
    SulMatuul.png
  • adz006adz006 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    adz006 wrote: »
    Recently, we have seen Cryptic trying to revitalize Queues (rebranded into TFOs). So, I thought real hard why I don't get myself into some of the TFOs, and when I ran out of thoughts, asked several of my friends to share their opinions too. So while some parts of my post and criticisms are not exactly my own personal thoughts, they are absolutely a concern shared by multiple people in game.

    And actually, it really boils down to that most of the offerings in game are just repetitive, tedious and sometimes downright annoying after multiple times of playing. Rewards, as they currently are, are more of a mid-tier problem, since while obviously players are driven to queues that give out the most rewards for least effort, ultimately it doesn't start to matter once you have solid fleet of Admirality ships to get your daily dil and thousands of marks just waiting in your Assets tab. Rewards surely play their part, but I don't want to discuss those in this post - it's about mission designs themselves.

    So, apart from poor rewards, what makes the queues so unappealing? Mostly timegates, or bad mechanics. All of the popular queues (sans Swarm, but I predict it will die down soon) are totally case of "how good team is" = "how fast you complete the mission". There's no senseless waiting or at worst cases trying to fight the game rather than NPCs. But that's minority of the queues in game.

    Rather, so many queues in game have timers that you simply have to wait to run out, before you either progress to next stage or mission can end. Even worse, that horrible practice has also crept into latest storyline missions. And the mandatory timers are not just annoying, they are also anti-immersive. As one of my friends said: "if a fleet is invading, they don't gain more ships just because you can kill them extra fast;
    or realistically they wouldn't, anyway". Yet we see this practice in so many queues today. And at the same time, it doesn't give you any incentive to play well, cause you know the mission will be over in X minutes anyway.

    Another extremely annoying feature is how either being shot at or shooting yourself completely breaks almost every interaction on missions, whether it is closing a portal, transport or whatever. Thus, an incredibly good QoL change would be if at least being shot at wouldn’t cancel said interactions. Said mechanic feels just to be thrown in to annoy the hell out of everyone, while actually not adding a layer of challenge.

    Thus, I, with a little help from my friends, compiled a list of worst offenders, and thought what might be good ideas to perhaps revitalize those. I'm not saying that all of my suggestions are perfect, but something needs to change and just complaining and yelling "fix it now!!!" while not offering anything at all didn't seem very right thing to do either. Also, I apologize if I left something important out, but it's open forum, you readers can always add your own thoughts.

    Assault on Terok Nor – console sequence is unintuitive, there's no real indication which consoles might be the right ones, so it becomes mindless running around and pressing F. Also other players can mess up your progress.
    Possible fix: Keep 3 consoles only you need to activate in correct sequence, and mission progresses as soon as one player gets it right. Activating wrong console resets sequence only for that player, not for the entire team.
    Alternative possible fix: If a logic puzzle is absolutely needed, maybe replace the console run with something similar to Quark’s Lucky Seven (where Rom hacks Odo’s computer), that only 1 person needs to complete.

    Azure Nebula Rescue – ideally, it’s 12 minutes of doing exactly the same stuff, and the reward is only determined by luck - not very good mission design if you ask me. Current state is doing something for 3 minutes and waiting 9 for nothing to happen - it's horribly bugged and needs to be fixed ASAP.
    Possible fix: there are 4 asteroid bases, and 4 classes of ships to be rescued. Assign one ship to each base and have the mission to end as soon as you’ve rescued 2 ships from each class. Autofail when you don’t manage to do so in 12 minutes.

    Battle of Procyon 5 – same **** 3 times in a row. I know you wanted to make it look like the actual “battle of Procyon 5”, but it just feels so dumb and unappealing.
    Possible fix: Cut parts 1 and 2 entirely and change the interaction mechanic per my interaction paragraph in this post, and it could possibly become one of my favourite missions in game.

    Binary Circuit – mission is absolutely awesome, but the race mechanic between 2 teams (for some unexplained reason) + required amount of 10 players can be offputting.
    Possible fix: Make it a single team, 5 player mission.

    Borg Disconnected
    Possible fix: Make the stage progress as soon as the team manages to save 15 disconnected Borg vessels.

    Counterpoint – actually, this mission doesn’t seem to have a big problem with getting players, so probably not a big priority, but for QoL improvement…
    Possible fix: Have the mission autoprogress as soon as the team has closed 5 portals and transported 15 troops.

    Days of Doom – I know it’s integral part of the mission, so I have a hard time of coming up with a meaningful change, but 10 minutes of waiting until Scotty finishes his core is incredibly unpopular among large part of players.

    Dranuur Gauntlet – this would be a fun mission, but it suffers from what's possibly the worst execution in the game. Killing enemies faster just means enemies spawn faster and you get **** faster. And the mobs move right to and past the satellites and will spawncamp the players, and when you're not quick enough, they'll spawn more waves whether or not you finished the current one.
    Special comment from a tank friend: tanking doesn’t help at all, it's impossible to draw fire away from defense satellites.
    Possible fix: Fix the aggro and design the mission to autoprogress as soon as you’ve cleared X number of enemy groups. Fix the respawn location so that players aren’t under fire from all three groups as they re-enter. And make it possible to heal the defense satellites.

    Gateway to Grethor
    Possible fix: mission progresses to boss stage as soon as 15 transports get through. Autofail when they don’t after allocated time.

    Herald Sphere
    Possible fix: Stage 2 progresses as soon as you kill 5 Herald attack groups. Autofail when you can’t do it in 4 minutes or when 15 ships get through. Stage 3 - fix the bug with command ships and have it autoprogress as soon as you kill 1, maybe 2 groups of herald forces.
    Link to bug

    Storming the Spire – probably my personal favourite mission, but so many of my friends are complaing about timegates, so here goes.
    Possible fix: Mission autoprogresses as soon as you get 50% control of the spire. Autofail when you fail to do that in 10 minutes or when Voth get more than 150 troops.

    Swarm - 3rd stage is too long and gets repetitive.
    Possible fix: Mission autocompletes when X number of transports get through.

    Undine Infiltration – mission was very popular until the fire extinguish mechanic was changed and turned into an incredibly bugged state.
    Possible fix: Revert it back to the previous state.

    Dude I feel bad for you, you wasted your time and effort, just as I am typing this. Do you really think they take our feedback seriously ? The answer is no. They will milk the cash cow until she's dry.

    Sad part is that some of the player base care more about the game than some of the devs do and there's absolutely nothing you can do about I'm afraid. How many posts and complaints have there been over the years, -most of them ignored or closed(the forum mod will find any reason to do so). Every time there is a season launch there is spike of players returning, and every time they realize nothing really has changed, they've recycled the same maps x10,000 (with some minor cosmetic changes), introduced new dil sinks and steep p2w and game mechanics so boring half the players fall asleep during play.




    Having said all that I hope discovery launch will fix some of those issues and will be more fun and I still look forward to it (or maybe I'm just delusional)
  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    personally, if I avoid a lot of stf/queues, it is not beacause the rewards are poor; but only because it's super boring to do 10, 20, 30 times the same thing; for 3, 4, 5 characters.

    + like in counterpoint advanced, some attacks are ridiculous (1 shot 1 kill); escort torp spread or the attack of 1 of the sci ship (esri dax ship, forgotten its name). But it is just a tiny problem.

    The fact, that they are the same since 2,3,4, 5 years is my main concern.

    Without evolution, stuff die. It's as simple as that.

    Even if the rewards are better, the stfs/queues/etc will be exactly the same. They won't have any interest for me. Higher rewards won't remove the fact, that these stfs/queues are super boring and outdated.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    Rather, so many queues in game have timers that you simply have to wait to run out, before you either progress to next stage or mission can end. Even worse, that horrible practice has also crept into latest storyline missions. And the mandatory timers are not just annoying, they are also anti-immersive. As one of my friends said: "if a fleet is invading, they don't gain more ships just because you can kill them extra fast;
    or realistically they wouldn't, anyway". Yet we see this practice in so many queues today. And at the same time, it doesn't give you any incentive to play well, cause you know the mission will be over in X minutes anyway.
    Auto-win timers are indeed at the heart of what's wrong with mission design in STO. While defending an objective against relentless attack for a set amount of time is a staple videogame trope, it doesn't work without that objective to defend. If the objective is an indestructible part of scenery, it doesn't need defending. This is even worse in STO with unlimited respawns, as you're not really even defending yourself.

    If there's an objective to defend that can be destroyed and the mission fail, then it can work as a defense/survival mission. If not then it's just waiting out a timer.
    Another extremely annoying feature is how either being shot at or shooting yourself completely breaks almost every interaction on missions, whether it is closing a portal, transport or whatever. Thus, an incredibly good QoL change would be if at least being shot at wouldn’t cancel said interactions. Said mechanic feels just to be thrown in to annoy the hell out of everyone, while actually not adding a layer of challenge.
    That's not a QoL change. And it absolutely is a layer of challenge. Interrupting you is pretty much the only thing the enemies are actually capable of.

    Making attacks cancel interacts is perhaps a bit unrefined way of making it so that you have to actually deal with the enemies instead of ignoring them to skip to the interacts, but what are the other options? They could prevent players from even starting interacts with enemies around, but that would prevent strategy where teammates draw fire to allow others to interact. They could use Red Alert for the block instead, but that takes time to cool down and enemies could respawn before you're free. Or, of course, they could make the enemies strong enough to kill players fast enough to stop them if they sit down at the interact without clearing the way, but Cryptic is committed to Easy Mode so not like that's going to happen.

    In any case, simply allowing players to ignore the enemies and zip around doing whatever is not an option.
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    I don't think content like queues should be able to be completed in merely a couple of minutes, but i do think that a decently made queue won't need a timer; it will take 10-15 mins and the players won't notice the timer if it's well enough designed. Create a mission with a timed portion in such as way we don't notice it's actually timed. Not just with endless waves of baddies to kill but with some content that keeps us engaged and interested in what is going on. That end fight in Home is a good example because it clearly is timed but does anyone really notice it with all the intense combat, friendly character chatter, cutscences etc?
    Horrible example and exactly what's wrong with autowin timers. The end of that mission is for all intents and purposes a long unskippable cutscene. Nothing the player does affects anything at all. Sure, I stuck around the first time around to see the story, but on subsequent runs I just leave my dudes to die and go to do something useful instead.
    Content itself is very shallow. What i mean is that nearly everything is about "kill X number of baddies to progress" and there's little reason to not play for the heaviest hitting ship build you can. It forces the players down a very limited road of choices really because little point to support builds or debuffers etc in the majority of play when just loading up with BFAW or CSV or whatever latest meta damage build will do everything anyway. Sure at elite things like support do help but for 99% of content they are no use and you feel like a drag on the team or are send pm's telling you you;re a leech.
    "[K]ill X number of baddies to progress" would actually be far superior to "wait X minutes while endlessly respawning baddies try to distract you from the fact you're just waiting."
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,645 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Why are queues dead/quiet?

    AFK'ing, spoilt players and Mark Choice boxes.

    I disagree completely about time-gates. They are necessary to explain things such as 'time of arrival', for example in Mirror Invasion. Killing X amount may be fine and well, but you can't change a ToA when you are expecting a train can you?? However, they should also bring in failure condition for queues such as Mirror Invasion....if that station hits zero at any difficulty, it should go NOVA (and it will also teach AFK'ers a lesson!)

    Some of OP's suggestions will remove the fun of queues, especially his Borg Disconnected suggestion. A clever player uses the enemy against each other in that queue. It's annoying when 3 or 4 players are in one area also!

    Players have been spoilt rotten with Mark Choice packs. There was a time when Rep items were HARD to achieve, but now they drop like sweets in a candy superstore! And the worst thing about it is folk are now saying this generousity isn't enough!

    And lastly, people sitting AFK for over half a mission, and there's no system-kick!? AFK'ing because someone doesn't like the time-gate or trench run is as bad as Trolling and really shouldn't be tolerated. If you can make the effort, you don't deserve to be in the Queues.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,672 Community Moderator
    + like in counterpoint advanced, some attacks are ridiculous (1 shot 1 kill); escort torp spread or the attack of 1 of the sci ship (esri dax ship, forgotten its name). But it is just a tiny problem.

    Actually its the Command Cruisers that have the killer Torp Spread 3. Hell... lets call it Torp Spread 4 with how powerful it is. The only escort that has something similar is the Armitage Escort Carrier using its Torpedo Point Defense console.

    The Vestas don't use Torp Spread from what I recall.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    rattler2 wrote: »
    + like in counterpoint advanced, some attacks are ridiculous (1 shot 1 kill); escort torp spread or the attack of 1 of the sci ship (esri dax ship, forgotten its name). But it is just a tiny problem.

    Actually its the Command Cruisers that have the killer Torp Spread 3. Hell... lets call it Torp Spread 4 with how powerful it is. The only escort that has something similar is the Armitage Escort Carrier using its Torpedo Point Defense console.

    The Vestas don't use Torp Spread from what I recall.

    The Vesta's use the Graviton shield which reflects damage back at the user. Very nasty if one sets it off when you launch a massive strike on them.
    SulMatuul.png
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    leemwatson wrote: »

    Some of OP's suggestions will remove the fun of queues, especially his Borg Disconnected suggestion. A clever player uses the enemy against each other in that queue. It's annoying when 3 or 4 players are in one area also!

    I fail to understand why the OP's suggested change to the map should be in volation with your "clever" idea to conclude it. :/

    Also I find the term clever here a bit problematic. I mean from my understanding clever player bring themselves into a position where it does not matter if they clear the critters on thier own b4 they interact, let them distract each other in the meantime or just use some hangar pets for all of that. Every 50k+ DPS build can do that, even my full Recluse support build can do that. Your clever realy makes no sense for me here, I'm sorry.
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    That's not a QoL change. And it absolutely is a layer of challenge. Interrupting you is pretty much the only thing the enemies are actually capable of.

    Making attacks cancel interacts is perhaps a bit unrefined way of making it so that you have to actually deal with the enemies instead of ignoring them to skip to the interacts, but what are the other options? They could prevent players from even starting interacts with enemies around, but that would prevent strategy where teammates draw fire to allow others to interact. They could use Red Alert for the block instead, but that takes time to cool down and enemies could respawn before you're free. Or, of course, they could make the enemies strong enough to kill players fast enough to stop them if they sit down at the interact without clearing the way, but Cryptic is committed to Easy Mode so not like that's going to happen.

    In any case, simply allowing players to ignore the enemies and zip around doing whatever is not an option.

    At lower difficulties, enemies will melt after couple of seconds anyway. At elite (and in some advanced missions), enemies are capable of causing extreme pain when you're just sitting still for couple of seconds. I understand what you and both @lordsteve1 try to say, but really, the game simply doesn't work that way. You (or any of your teammates) would still have to deal with enemies even with "incredibly minor damage interrupts" removed, cause if you leave them be, in most cases you'd be dead anyway.
    And I'd be totally fine with self-heals interrupting, too.
    warpangel wrote: »
    "[K]ill X number of baddies to progress" would actually be far superior to "wait X minutes while endlessly respawning baddies try to distract you from the fact you're just waiting."

    Completely agree there.
    leemwatson wrote: »
    Why are queues dead/quiet?

    Some of OP's suggestions will remove the fun of queues, especially his Borg Disconnected suggestion.

    Wow, someone actually finds sitting around doing completely nothing useful while waiting timer to end fun? Granted, in most cases, I don't mind the timers too much, but calling it "fun" or better alternative to a mission design where your actions can actually speed up the course of mission - I wouldn't do that.
    adz006 wrote: »

    Dude I feel bad for you, you wasted your time and effort, just as I am typing this. Do you really think they take our feedback seriously ? The answer is no. They will milk the cash cow until she's dry.

    Sad part is that some of the player base care more about the game than some of the devs do and there's absolutely nothing you can do about I'm afraid. How many posts and complaints have there been over the years, -most of them ignored or closed(the forum mod will find any reason to do so). Every time there is a season launch there is spike of players returning, and every time they realize nothing really has changed, they've recycled the same maps x10,000 (with some minor cosmetic changes), introduced new dil sinks and steep p2w and game mechanics so boring half the players fall asleep during play.

    Ha, thanks for the concern. And yeah, I still have perhaps too optimistic hopes that someone in Cryptic still cares about the game and tries to make it better for the players. But well, one can dream.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,672 Community Moderator
    I think that's mostly vs Torpedos and if you get too close. Beams/Cannons seem to punch through just fine. But then they may use Feedback Pulse.
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    Waiting out the Trench Run makes perfect sense, because it's a task that can only be performed by one player. Having more than one player at once simply accomplishes nothing and can, in fact, get you stuck and unable to proceed to the next stage.

    Only because players complained about having to fly down the LONG one so much they added a teleport feature when the first player gets there. Take that out for the event version and you'll have your full team participation.

    I've been around since The Breach was introduced and we had to do the FULL LONG RUN of it even for the event. I like this short event version over the full run. But you're basically painting it as it was designed from the get go as a single player run with 4 people who should do nothing but mooch. Honestly that comes across as a bit insulting to 4/5 of the team.

    Also... wut? More than one gets you stuck? I've never seen that happen, and I've been in runs where the whole team takes the Trench Run. Hell... some of the most entertaining runs STO has had in the past were not AFK runs, but a full team of 5 Universe class ships. Just to see if they'd even fit! FOR TEH LULZ!
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    personally, if I avoid a lot of stf/queues, it is not beacause the rewards are poor; but only because it's super boring to do 10, 20, 30 times the same thing; for 3, 4, 5 characters.

    + like in counterpoint advanced, some attacks are ridiculous (1 shot 1 kill); escort torp spread or the attack of 1 of the sci ship (esri dax ship, forgotten its name). But it is just a tiny problem.

    The fact, that they are the same since 2,3,4, 5 years is my main concern.

    Without evolution, stuff die. It's as simple as that.

    Even if the rewards are better, the stfs/queues/etc will be exactly the same. They won't have any interest for me. Higher rewards won't remove the fact, that these stfs/queues are super boring and outdated.

    Well, there was a time you know where we had far less maps to choose from. They were played all the time though. Now we have much more variety but ended up where we started. The same old original maps still get favored and most of the newer maps simply get ignored (not counting the brand new "only way to get the latest marks" kind of maps of course).

    I agree with you on the reward part but understand that many only play them for the rewards. Still, I realy think that "fun" is what made the charm of those old maps and that the hints tunebreaker gives here adresses this charm most of these newer maps simply lack. :)
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    adz006 wrote: »

    Dude I feel bad for you, you wasted your time and effort, just as I am typing this. Do you really think they take our feedback seriously ? The answer is no. They will milk the cash cow until she's dry.

    Sad part is that some of the player base care more about the game than some of the devs do and there's absolutely nothing you can do about I'm afraid. How many posts and complaints have there been over the years, -most of them ignored or closed(the forum mod will find any reason to do so). Every time there is a season launch there is spike of players returning, and every time they realize nothing really has changed, they've recycled the same maps x10,000 (with some minor cosmetic changes), introduced new dil sinks and steep p2w and game mechanics so boring half the players fall asleep during play.




    Hope dies last. Its also not as if cryptic would not tend to PvE from time to time. Each season we get new maps. The way they implement them though they give the impression that they do care (at least to some extend) but they simply can't seem to figure it out why it does not want to work.

    New releases often feel like:

    Hi
    Pakled.jpg
    You like it?

    Well no! I mean why all this trouble to program maps like gauntlet or beach assault? Only to give birth to two dead children?
    Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,672 Community Moderator
    I blame the time invested vs reward mentality of the players. Why play something different with a lower payout then the same old thing that can be facerolled in two minutes for a higher payout? Also... why bother to learn how to do the new stuff if we can just faceroll the old stuff we can do in our sleep?

    They do have some fun STFs, but they're dead because people want the shiny NAO. Hell... even Fleet Alert suffers because Infected has a better payout and can be finished in a fraction of the time.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • captyoung01captyoung01 Member Posts: 308 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    There's a lot of reasons the queues are not being played. And i think I've seen people post threads for months, if not years on this topic with nobody paying much attention from the Dev side.

    OP is correct that rewards are not the only thing causing this but i'd argue they are a MAJOR part of it. Those of us who've been here for years may well have 100+ Admiralty ships and 10's of thousands of marks/dil saved up so see rewards as no issue, but there is a massive percentage of players i'd imagine for whom rewards are important.
    There's just no way to ignore the fact that things like ISA and CCA get played most because they are quick and easy and thus reward a disproportionate amount of resources for the time/effort required.
    In the grind-heavy game we have right now where everything costs dilithium in some form, it is no wonder people gravitate towards the easiest way to get those much needed rewards. And the game is catering towards these people as well!
    Just look at the Red Alerts with their universal rewards, you don't even need to fight most enemies because you can get all your rewards for every rep (bar Gamma) in one quick easy place. The RA's have become the Amazon of rewards and nobody bothers going to shop for them elsewhere with such an easy place to acquire them.

    Now on top of that reward issue there are others sure. As OP mentioned there's issues with bugs in queues, or questionable timers and mechanics that seem to be designed to simply keep us in a place longer than we really need to be:

    [/list]

    I don't think I could have put this better, I was going to mention that the killer of most of the Queue's/TFO's is that the Multi-choice Rep Points are attached to many of them. Having Multi-choice on special events is one thing, but since players are directed to more popular queue's for choice marks the interest is pulled off of anything else. Also having one special event after another is another game play killer, we need breaks in between.

    It's not that I haven't been able to get into a few of the queue's when pugging it, but it is a rare occasion and usually if the Endeavor is offering a reward for playing in them after that interest is gone. Most of the the time I am seeing new players in these queue's wanting or needing to learn to play in them and most likely for the Rep points reward, accolades etc.

    Bugs in these queue's are another factor, Undine ground for one example of many. I am not too well versed to put any speculation on the Mechanic's of Pve's, if timers should be in game or not, but as it seems the game is more DPS driven than it is actual real skill and strategy and team work involved (In some cases), but when in "pugs" you get what you get and you have to work with that.

    Many players just want to end Pve's too quickly, if what is played is too elongated people tend to lose interest and will leave that queue/tfo, also to mention that if a player is not geared well enough and continually becomes unconscious they will leave just the same.

    That being said, and with little idea myself on how interest can be regenerated into playing older content and getting those new to the game involved in those queue's as well. Any idea's from the community? Something we can harp onto the Dev's? Maybe a separate Tier Reward System for completing certain Rep queue's? I'll let the think tanks out here come up with something of a better idea. .





  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I blame the time invested vs reward mentality of the players. Why play something different with a lower payout then the same old thing that can be facerolled in two minutes for a higher payout? Also... why bother to learn how to do the new stuff if we can just faceroll the old stuff we can do in our sleep?

    They do have some fun STFs, but they're dead because people want the shiny NAO. Hell... even Fleet Alert suffers because Infected has a better payout and can be finished in a fraction of the time.

    I learned all, did all, can do all and have enough marks for all reps on 12 toons to look relaxed at T6 reps as we chat.

    I'm telling you I played my last ISA just for rewards back in S9. Please dont blame me, and I bet I'm not the only one.
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,672 Community Moderator
    We've kicked things around for years. Most revolve around the reward payout.

    What sounds more rewarding? Around 75-100 marks for 2-3 minutes of Infected Advanced? Or 25 marks for 15 minutes of Azure Nebula Rescue?
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    Recently, we have seen Cryptic trying to revitalize Queues (rebranded into TFOs). So, I thought real hard why I don't get myself into some of the TFOs, and when I ran out of thoughts, asked several of my friends to share their opinions too. So while some parts of my post and criticisms are not exactly my own personal thoughts, they are absolutely a concern shared by multiple people in game.
    This is a fine list of suggestions and I am certain that they will increase the enjoyment for people who already play the queues. None of these suggestions will significantly increase the number of players in your public queues.

    Most players don't play the public queues because they: 1) don't like the risk of failure/reduced rewards/increased completion time that rando players might add and 2) do not like queued content. There are players who play the public queues, but avoid certain queues for the reasons you stated, but many players simply do not like the content, period.

    Many players queue in private rooms or fleets because they are tired of PUGs being terrible. Even when you remove the fail timer, completion times can get excessive and you lose out on optional rewards that a "competent" team would reliably complete. A significant portion of the playerbase does not play queued content for the experience; they see the content as a chore and they only do it to get the reward and move on to something they enjoy. One of the biggest factors in fun killing public queues are other players, as weird as that may sound for an MMO.

    I prefer battlezones over public or private queues. I like the "drop in", "drop out" accessibility and I enjoy the "massive" number of other players and ships that congregate to destroy the "final objective" in these areas (except the Kobali battlezone, which is complete garbage). I find the battlezones more viscerally appealing than a 5 man or 10 man assault on NPCs in the tiny arenas that comprise queued content. If I have to choose between one set of mindless button mashing or another, I'm going to choose the one that looks "prettier" to me. After all, "space barbie" is the REAL endgame in STO.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,672 Community Moderator
    Gon'cra still needs to be fixed, because Lukari Marks are kinda hard to get.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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