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    evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    Perhaps Fed / KDF / Rom start at 60 will be a C-Store option? Would eliminate abuse concerns if it required opening your wallet each time.
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    tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    I believe they did say in the last livestream that they plan on Jem'Hadar having access to previous missions in some way.

    it'll probably be as some sort of holodeck experience...
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    bubblegirl2015bubblegirl2015 Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    .. is supposed to be a Jem'Hadar feature. That's cool and nice, but... could we get the same for the other factions, by choosing a third option (not just "skip tutorial" but also "start at level 60")? The ability to play a Level 60 Romulan, Klingon, or Starfleet character from the start would be very nice.

    There is, of course, some potential for what some people would label "abuse", such a creating a character, collecting the Delta and Temporal Recruit account rewards, deleting the character, repeat. But I suspect the developers wil put things into place with the Jem'Hadar faction that prevent this. As those will exist already, they could be applied to all factions. Thus, allowing level 60 RRF, KDF and Starfleet characters would be a reasonable feature.

    Please?

    I don't see why not. Other MMOs already have characters you can "buy" at higher levels or almost leveled up. Other MMOs just locked items bound to character rather than sell or trade...doable.
    Eventually, this will make it to the CStore but also you probably would pay an arm and leg for it. It's sure smells like a good profit for STO. Would not be surprised if it'll cost about 5000 Zen for it.​​
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    leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,350 Arc User
    I believe they did say in the last livestream that they plan on Jem'Hadar having access to previous missions in some way.

    They did say JH would have access to previous missions.
    asuran14 wrote: »
    Are you kiddin? one of the only things actually fun in this game, levelling a character from the start and people want to remove it? lol. Amazing.

    I can agree with you on it being fun, but disagree with you on it being fun for everyone. Such as in other games many people want to get to where everyone else is, and enjoy the end-game content regardless of what that might be.

    That being so, I think this should be locked off completely to new players that have no Lvl 60 characters. Players must learn to crawl, before they can walk, nevermind run!!
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
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    duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,871 Arc User

    I don't see why not. Other MMOs already have characters you can "buy" at higher levels or almost leveled up. Other MMOs just locked items bound to character rather than sell or trade...doable.
    Eventually, this will make it to the CStore but also you probably would pay an arm and leg for it. It's sure smells like a good profit for STO. Would not be surprised if it'll cost about 5000 Zen for it.​​

    If Cryptic feels though that they want players to be immersed in the FED/ROM/KDF story line then they probably won't ever allow players to skip it entirely (and undercut monetized XP boosts). ;) Some MMO's have character level boosts but its worth noting that not all MMO's enable it.
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    evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    asuran14 wrote: »
    Are you kiddin? one of the only things actually fun in this game, levelling a character from the start and people want to remove it? lol. Amazing.

    I can agree with you on it being fun, but disagree with you on it being fun for everyone. Such as in other games many people want to get to where everyone else is, and enjoy the end-game content regardless of what that might be.

    That being so, I think this should be locked off completely to new players that have no Lvl 60 characters. Players must learn to crawl, before they can walk, nevermind run!!

    I believe they said in the livestream that if you're brand new to STO with no existing characters, you will still be able to create a level 60 Jem'Hadar.
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    stormstryke2stormstryke2 Member Posts: 252 Arc User
    I believe they did say in the last livestream that they plan on Jem'Hadar having access to previous missions in some way.

    This was said on the livestream but not in detail. So how it will work we don't know yet. But I did hear that too on the stream.
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    asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    asuran14 wrote: »
    Are you kiddin? one of the only things actually fun in this game, levelling a character from the start and people want to remove it? lol. Amazing.

    I can agree with you on it being fun, but disagree with you on it being fun for everyone. Such as in other games many people want to get to where everyone else is, and enjoy the end-game content regardless of what that might be.

    That being so, I think this should be locked off completely to new players that have no Lvl 60 characters. Players must learn to crawl, before they can walk, nevermind run!!

    I agree that players should learn the basics, and have an understanding. Yet when wow did this with the Death knights they did make it that you needed a character at level 55 or higher to gain access to creating a Death knight, and it did not really work as players just power-leveled to the needed level to get access without learning anything. Most players do not learn anything of how the game plays at max lvl via leveling up, hell you don't even get access to a full boff-layout on ships till level 50 (I think the Jem'hadar should have started here myself). Alot of players would rather go out an copy/paste an existing build, than learn how to build their own build thru figuring out how things work together.

    Hell most of the learning in the game is done at level 50 when you are getting access to many of stfs, as well as a ship with a full boff layout. Funny part is that most of that does not need much in the way of learning to complete the content actually, and without a method of making a player show they have learned anything the requirement is moot. If we were talking prior to when the dev's stream-lined the leveling experience, than maybe I could see the point as the leveling time to get to cap was much different.
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    avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 3,197 Arc User
    Leveling has always been a staple for RPG's and MMO's, there's no reason why it should be considered a relic.
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    ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User
    Eh big deal...At least it's not like the Klingon faction way back when..
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    avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 3,197 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    There's already genres which don't rely on leveling, there's no reason why a genre which does rely on leveling should do the same as those other genres. The leveling was just poorly done when you think about it, they should be fixing it rather than removing it entirely but at this point it's too late to.
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    mcevergreenmcevergreen Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    At first, I would like to say that I am really looking forward to the expansion. I think that the team puts in a lot of effort into season 15 "Victory is Life" and I cannot wait until the season will go live in June. I am especially curious about the new progression system and all the wonderful characters from DS9, which bring their voices into the game.

    Already some days ago, I started a post in the German speaking forum, about the Jem'Hadar, or Dil'Hadar as some people are already calling them. My main concern is that this game needs to have a healthy dilithium-zen exchange rate. In my fleet, we have a good mixture between players who are enjoying the game as lifetimers and as free-to-play gamers. I hope that were are able to keep a healthy economy in the game also in future.

    I want to be clear, I do not wish to say anything bad. The only thing, which I would like to do, is to raise the question as which impact the creation of lvl 60 chars will have on the game. I took some time and spoke with a lot of people, both, in the game and across different discussion forums.
    In these discussions, I have heard a lot of issues which come up with the ability of making lvl 60 chars directly. Of course, we have to keep in my mind that we have three months to go until the expansion will hit holodeck, and, for sure, we do not know yet all the details of the expansion and the Jem'Hadar.

    Many see basically two major issues with lvl 60 Jem'Hadar:
    1) Creating Jem'Hadar will be powerful dilithium farming characters. You do not need to spend anymore time in levelling them from lvl 0 (or lvl 3 after skipping the tutorial) to lvl 11, in order to access the doff system, or lvl 52, in order to access the admiralty system. You will have everything what you need to farm dilithium right away. You will be even be allowed to queue up directly for elite PvE queues. Some people say that dilithium farming was never as easy as it will be with the Jem'Hadar. It might be the case that there will be many Jem'Hadar around in the game by the end of this year.

    jemdilwys1l.png

    In season 15, why would you care and still care create a lvl 0 Human, Klingon or Romulan - if you can go ahead directly to lvl 60. Even better, as mentioned in the last live-stream, a lvl 60 Jem'Hadar will be much better than a Human, Klingon or Romulan, which is just hitting lvl 60, since a Jem'Hadar will have partly their reputation, specialisation and admiralty system completed.

    2) It is not a good idea that completely new players can directly create lvl 60 characters. In the past, if I remember correctly, someone needed to have a lvl 25 Human character in order to be able to create a lvl 0 Klingon character. As a fleet leader of two fleet with 100 players, I have seen it as very positive that new players are first playing the story missions before they are joining PvE queues. During the story missions, they get to know different types of ships, different types of weapons as well as space and ground combat.

    For example, I have been playing various Star Trek games in the past such as Starfleet Command 3. But, even if there are similarities between the space combat in Star Trek Online and Starfleet Command 3, I would not say that you are immediately ready for a lvl 60 character in Star Trek Online. It can be kind of frustrating, both, for new and old players, when new players are going immediately for elite PvE queue missions.
    Of course, there will be the option to go back as a Jem'Hadar to old missions, but I am not sure if many new players will do that. Agents of Yesterday was good as we started out as a new lvl 0 character. A lot of new players, who joined at AoY, learned still many basics of the game this way. Somehow I think that - as Jem'Hadar - we also should start as lvl 0 rather than lvl 60. But, I can be wrong and actually there are no problems with creating lvl 60 characters for new players.

    One last thing which I like to mention is a comment from Jeremy in the Ten Forward Weekly live-stream:
    If you can make a new character and can instantly do certain things like claim certain things, there are going to be a few limitations, but only the bare minimum to protect the player base.
    I would suggest that we do not start with the minimum amount of limitations, but with the maximum amount of limitations. People are creative in this game. I would go ahead and start opening up doors time after time - when we know that there will be new issues in allowing Jem'Hadars to claim certain types of rewards, for example.

    I do hope that we will see an amazing new season this summer. Personally, I cannot wait to see what will be waiting for us to explore in June this year. And, I am glad that we have a forum for discussions, in order to make the game better and more enjoyable for all of us. :)

    In this way, Victory is Life.
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    legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,280 Arc User
    In season 15, why would you care and still care create a lvl 0 Human, Klingon or Romulan - if you can go ahead directly to lvl 60.

    expansions are not seasons, and the majority playing STO aren't the min-maxing powergamers, they are the star trek fans, who won't give a TRIBBLE what kind of advantages jem'hadar might offer - if they aren't fans of them, they likely aren't going to make them past just one for idle curiosity​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

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    mcevergreenmcevergreen Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    In season 15, why would you care and still care create a lvl 0 Human, Klingon or Romulan - if you can go ahead directly to lvl 60.

    expansions are not seasons, and the majority playing STO aren't the min-maxing powergamers, they are the star trek fans, who won't give a **** what kind of advantages jem'hadar might offer - if they aren't fans of them, they likely aren't going to make them past just one for idle curiosity​​

    I am not sure about that. I mean, yes, of course, I am a Star Trek fan. And, yes, I am a min-maxing powergamer as well.

    I think that we are now going a bit off the topic. But, I would like to say how I got to know the game back in 2012/2013 (before the expansion of New Romulus). Back then, people were flying around in Starfleet vessels and, I really liked how everything was quite balanced in the game. In my opinion, fighting the Borg was not a matter of seconds and much more strategy was involved in the game.
    To some extend, the so-called power creep is somewhat the end-game nowadays. It is out of question that there is a great storyline available in the game with a lot of voice actors from the different Star Trek series. This is amazing especially for completely new players and Star Trek fans.

    So, I understand what you are saying. That many Star Trek fans will not care about the superior traits of Jem'Hadars.

    However, in 2018, a significant share of the ships are Alien ships. Yes, I also use Alien ships (non-Starfleet ships), but only because the Starfleet ships cannot compete with them. But, still, some of my characters are flying around in an Excelsior class - a true oldtimer nowadays in the game. People might even don't like, assuming you are not doing any damage, are not supporting the team, as you are not able to afford a "real" ship.
    I remember when the Delta recruit event went live. All the space was filled with Miranda ships. It was an amazing thing to see so many Starfleet ships again. Nowadays, I am often in teams without any Starfleet ships. As a Star Trek fan, I am missing somehow the "good old times" in which we all had only Starfleet ships. The thing I am trying to say is that it just felt more like Star Trek to actually fly as Federation player in Starfleet ships.

    Of course, to some extend, it is a good thing to have variety and diversity.

    With the new expansion coming in June, I feel that the share of Starfleet vessels will even get smaller than ever before. Personally, I do not need any new types of enemies in the game in order to keep interest in playing the game. I would be so happy if the Borg for example would get some of their original strength back in order to fear and respect them.

    To be honest, I am afraid that the Jem'Hadar will become somehow the new state-of-the-art and you should start playing them someone, because it would be somehow stupid not to, since they offer you superior traits and benefits (start at lvl 60, progress in the different systems and so on). In summary, I think that as Star Trek fan, the game is not the same as it used to be. And, of course, as time moves on, we are getting additions to the game. But, I am not sure if all of them are good. Don't get me wrong, I am really looking forward for the upcoming expansion and the Jem'Hadar. However, I still would love to see the exploration coming back (exploring some nebulas and stuff like that) and doing so in my Starfleet vessel. As a Star Trek fan, this is some content which I am truely missing.
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    wintermutevreswintermutevres Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    I honestly don't see the problem with dil farming. It takes two-three days tops to reach lvl 52 for admiralty. During double xp event you can get at least two toons all the way to 60 easily. If someone is dedicated enough to farm admiralty on say 10 toons (and that takes from 2 to 4 hours a day, let's say 3 on avg) leveling them won't be a problem for that person. Someone who can't deal with leveling many toons won't be able to deal with doing admiralty on many toons. It's not like admiralty gives you 8k dil for pressing one button, you still have to spend time. You will also need a lot of ships to be effective. New players won't have them. Old players already have both enough toons and hudge fleet and are getting crazy amounts of dil every day anyway.
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    aboundedorc0#8479 aboundedorc0 Member Posts: 109 Arc User
    This thread makes my head hurt!

    I'm finding it difficult to grasp the mindset of even introducing a new faction if the damned thing is going to start at level 60? I had actually looked forward to running a new tutorial and starting another character with its own unique content and back story before leveling it up the usual way. I'm not going to just say that whatever the heck they ultimately do with this Jem'hadar faction no longer interests me, but it better be some humdinger of a twist to get me past this logjam.

    If they truly intend to implement this type of thing, then why have the new faction choose between Fed or KDf alliance? Why not just let it be its own thing too?
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    sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User
    It will certainly be interesting to see how Cryptic handles this.

    Personally, I would expect all the sets and unique items from previous levels, be made available for reclaim in a unique item store for Jem'Hadar characters only. It would make zero sense to allow them to play the missions for them..
    I would also expect the Delta and Temporal recruit rewards (Not Dilthium and Marks) be in the same store. I earned them for every character on my account, so I include any new factions, as well!
    I would assume that they wont have access to any other faction ships, unless it will be like the Romulan faction being up to T4?

    I can see the point on worrying about the various exchanges being affected, but what you have to consider, is that Cryptic really doesn't care about them.
    All they care about is getting people to the point where money can be spent on cstore and gambling ships, nothing more.
    Cryptic have seen the stats on people leaving the game after certain levels, and think that doing this will make people stay just a bit longer..... Well enough to be tempted into gambling a bit or buying a few T6 cstore ships!

    I am looking forward to the new faction, and hope that I can choose which Reputations and Admiralty are completed.
    Fed: Eng Lib Borg (Five) Tac Andorian (Shen) Sci Alien/Klingon (Maelrock) KDF:Tac Romulan KDF (Sasha) Tac Klingon (K'dopis)
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Heck, you can start a character.
    Stright to voth ground, earn 8000 dill. Transfer it to another toon. Delete character, start a new one, straight to voth ground, earn 8k........ Repeat......

    If they want to destroy the value of dill again, or find an excuse to nerf decent rewards, again, then this is it. IMO.

    And there is my hat thrown in the ring.
    Its open wide to massive exploitation is this idea.
    You call that exploitation? You can basically do that already simply by having a bunch of dudes. Or do you think that it's going to be quick and easy to create a L60 character?
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    postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,899 Arc User
    Are you kiddin? one of the only things actually fun in this game, levelling a character from the start and people want to remove it? lol. Amazing.

    There are players of MMO's that have this strange belief in a mythical land called endgame as being the only place worth being within the game. The more zealous believers become blind to the journey that forms and molds a player. Also blind to the fact that the endgame is often very empty, barren and mindnumbingly repetitive (maybe that's why god wanted a starship?)

    Starting at 60 when the new cap is 65 is stupid unless they're planning on revisiting the delta grinding days with insanely low levelling from barely any xp and not enough missions to cover the gape from old to new caps. If that is what happens then they blew the budget getting trek actors to voice stuff.

    The rommies got an extended tutorial that ends around 35 ish now. So fo jems something similar could even be done by weaving existing missions into a holotraining system so the freshly cloned jem knows more of those who will presumably be allied during the fight they were bred for. Could use those to trim the fluff and focus more on those episode that avoid the excessive padding, those where you warp in scan one thing and warp off to another place to rinse and repeat because padding time is better than gameplay.
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    warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    Some people inevitably like leveling toons to whatever cap there is, while others equally inevitably don't. Complaining about other people not liking the same things as you serves no useful purpose.
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    zerokillcf2011zerokillcf2011 Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    Well the other options is that as a straight to 60 "faction", maybe they will have a different dilithium cap daily (say 4000) or maybe there is a catch: as a Jem'Hadar you MUST take white, and that is only available for X dilithium daily or in packs. So you would be required to spend to keep your char alive? Or maybe they will be forbidden from getting previous DR or AOY account rewards (dilithium and marks)? There is a LOT that could be done to reasonably put limits on them if they want.

    That being said, why would it matter? FTP are limited in how many characters they can have, so they aren't really creating chars to farm? And for us lifers we mostly have as many farm characters as we want, besides the alts we actually PLAY. So I don't think there would be any huge change to the dilithium exchange. And right now you can't get a lot of the unlocks without playing through the corresponding story arc first with the new character. (brand new alt can't got to Temporal Agent and claim everything on day one, the have to go through "Klingon Arc" before they can claim temporal or delta rewards that are account unlock, so again not any different from a "standard" alt)
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    evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    sunfrancks wrote: »
    It will certainly be interesting to see how Cryptic handles this.

    Personally, I would expect all the sets and unique items from previous levels, be made available for reclaim in a unique item store for Jem'Hadar characters only. It would make zero sense to allow them to play the missions for them.

    They already said Jem'Hadar will be able to play all previous missions, they just haven't explained how it will work.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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    elderson30elderson30 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    I hate the idea of starting at 60, why not create enough content to lvl a jem'hadar character from 1-60 throughout all the quadrants. I'm sure there are secret missions that the jem'hadar and the founders were involved in that FEDS, the KDF and the RR were not aware of. They can create enough story arcs that won't interact with all the old stuff. I'm pretty sure it's possible.
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    tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    You do know that JHD stands out like a sore thumb right? You can have changelings sneaking about... but not their pet cannon fodder.
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    tigeraries wrote: »
    You do know that JHD stands out like a sore thumb right? You can have changelings sneaking about... but not their pet cannon fodder.
    Well, what's to say it isn't a holodeck recreation? :p
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    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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