I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I keep reading things like “PVP is dead” or PVE-only players complaining about attempts to balance items/abilities because “no one plays PVP,” or “the 99% are getting screwed by the 1%.” Others, usually blatant trolls in these forums, complain about toxic players, and the same people who whine about broken abilities making PVP impossible are usually the FaW warriors who insult your mother when you turn the wrong way at the start of Infected Space.
Causal Forum Reader, don’t buy into the hatred for PVP spewed by the few players represented in this forum. Their bitterness and vitriol is not representative of reality.
In my experience, when someone starts talking about the 'bitterness and vitriol' of other players, it's usually followed by exactly that, coming from themselves. To wit:
Somewhere, maybe not too long ago, these haters got their egos checked in the battle zone or arena and decided to try to ruin it for everyone. It’s really as simple as that. For some people, not performing well is only a reflection on others, never themselves, and they will do anything and everything they can to ruin the fun if they can’t be the center of attention.
Hmmm.... HOBO is back?
Gotta love it. Go kick some Fed asses. You got a You Tube channel up yet? It's OK I will google.
I do not PvP ... but have fun with it the revival (if you all dare).
I'm low on the totem pole, but do find us on Discord. We'd be happy to see you.
LOL! Well, I am sure you would be happy to see me and my ship 'splode into smithereens, too.
But thanks for being nice about it.
Really, I have tried PvP with a friend or two...and found: I can not do it.
There is just a mental block...I can not hit someone that I know is an actual person.
I can't even "test" things on someone else.
As in Frtoaster offered to allow me to shoot at him to try out some theory of mine. I have forgotten what it was I was trying to figure out...knowing me, it probably had something to do with Immunity (I was really hot on that TRIBBLE for a while). I had to turn him down to be my test dummy because I can not shoot him!!!!
That is why I don't PvP, though I do study it, at times.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I find switching your build depending on your type of opponent cumbersome and annoying - I tend to build so that the ship can defeat all possible enemies as-is. PvP is thus not an option.
I agree here. In theory, adapting your build to the current meta/stats of the current enemy actually is kind of fun, and I sometimes do that for arcs, but in the long run I don't want 23 different loadouts. Well, the loadouts alone wouldn't be too bad, the inventory management however would be tedious to me.
And news flash of the century: if you don't like pvp, you don't need to go out and wear it like a badge of honor. Just don't play it and shut the hell up.
And that's what I do. However, when somebody insults me for not PvPing and claims it is, indeed, a badge of shame, I respond. If the OP dishes out against non PvP, he should be ready for some echoes.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
BTW, I would love to like it. My Kara class warbird (technically, a Fleet Ha'apax) was in Ker'rat today. But without a very fast ship, there is no way of competing, and as I am in my 40s, my reflexes couldn't keep up with the youngesters anyway. Compensating that with tanky ships may seem possible, but the game is Escorts Online again, I would conclude from my little glance.
The game mechanics would have to be slower, the speed/range ratio lower (why are there no consoles to increase one's range?), and the people doing it would have to be more... adult? Just one example: One guy just recommended taking amphetamines to keep up with him...
I'm not far off you age wise and my competitive urge has long since left me. PvP is a young man's game. Though amphetamines would actually make things worse, not better. Give that young man a chemistry lesson.
I haven't actually rolled out my Kara in a while, kind of got in the Khopesh and got glued into it.
Since PvP isn't a hot-button issue for me either way, I didn't read the OP as being any form of attack on non-PVPers in general.
However, OP, if you want to post an encouraging message, you should probably go back over it once you've typed it and remove all references to haters, vitriol spewing, wounded egos etc. Those are just backhanded attacks on old issues that have no relevance to your core point. Mixing even mild abuse with your encouragement just reminds people why they don't like PvP in the first place.
At any rate, your primary point being 'STO PvP isn't as dead as it is sometimes made out to be', I got it. It doesn't particularly interest me but I may head down to Kerrat sometime to check it out, if only to complete a couple missions etc. that require it.
Hmm...this whole: must be completely outfitted with all the bells and whistles thing..... couldn't that be mitigated by doing something like what the DPS Channels do? Sort people by the amount of damage they tested at?
I am not sure the PvP players is as organized....or can be organized as such, though.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Hmm...this whole: must be completely outfitted with all the bells and whistles thing..... couldn't that be mitigated by doing something like what the DPS Channels do? Sort people by the amount of damage they tested at?
I am not sure the PvP players is as organized....or can be organized as such, though.
I think in theory the grouping system for queues is intended to do just that. As for it working, I won't comment. Though I doubt that just taking DPS channel numbers would resolve the issue, they're mostly about set environments with known strategies, while one of the points of the OP was that PvP doesn't have them as much and you have to adapt and not necessarily maximize your damage output alone.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Hmm...this whole: must be completely outfitted with all the bells and whistles thing..... couldn't that be mitigated by doing something like what the DPS Channels do? Sort people by the amount of damage they tested at?
That's an interesting idea; I'd be interested in hearing from the regulars on said channels how they get all that sorted. Another alternative, would be one I raise here: players have access to a selection of pre-configured ships only usable for PvP, with that selection growing as they climb a revised Competitive Wargames rep track.
Yet another, also raised above, would be for gear to have a second set of stats which are used instead of their primary stats... again, only in PvP spaces. There is some precedent for this: several effects have different values when used against NPCs as opposed to other players.
Sadly, from what I've read in the linked thread, there seems to be a terminal lack of interest on the part of the dev team in making fair, balanced PvP - note that this is distinct from not having the time/personnel to do so because of the crafting of upcoming content.
Players can be sorted by how well geared they are. But THAT isn't the whole story with PvP, either.
Your age does make a big difference on response times, too....and that is in any fighting arena, not just video games.
I am not sure how one could be tested for PvP skill levels.
Also, can one get better at PvP, if they are sequestered from higher skilled players? Would there even be an incentive to improve, if all the player opponents you faced were equal to you?
And that is just avoiding the "elephant in the room"....the attitudes of crowd that does PvP, now.
+++++++
The links in your post do not seem to be working for me, right now. I have to get out of ARC...will look later.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
They did have that (in)famous Player Potential System, but it never made it's way into PvP. Not that it would matter since there are never enough people in the queues to actually sort anything.
Seriously I feel there is no point to PvP'n in this game because I don't spend time grinding out gear/ships/traits from lock boxes. That isn't fun game play to be honest. Also since PvP itself doesn't reward these things there's no point to participating to begin with especially when the reputation and reputation rewards are eclipsed by micro transaction gear from lock boxes and you can earn the rep and what gear it does reward from red alerts without ever having to PvP and going through a constant vaping/spawn camping process.
In the end to me it boils down to poor and unfun game design.
Seriously I feel there is no point to PvP'n in this game because I don't spend time grinding out gear/ships/traits from lock boxes. That isn't fun game play to be honest. Also since PvP itself doesn't reward these things there's no point to participating to begin with especially when the reputation and reputation rewards are eclipsed by micro transaction gear from lock boxes and you can earn the rep and what gear it does reward from red alerts without ever having to PvP and going through a constant vaping/spawn camping process.
In the end to me it boils down to poor and unfun game design.
Not just the lockboxes, though....it is all of it.
Specialization, T-6 Mastery, Event grind...these last few event ships new Experimental weapons, starship traits and consoles mean they are not just useful for Admiralty Cards, any more.
And there are SOOOOO many one right after the other, after the other.....there is no break between the lockboxes and events.
Some people have the time (and pocket change) to keep their heads above the rush...good for them. It is not for me.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
The problem is that when PVPers demand nerfs for everything that kills them or they can't kill, those nerfs are applied to PVE too.
99% of players lose fun toys because the 1% doesn't want to deal with them in PVP. Getting rid of that 1% is most definitely a fix that would let the rest of us keep our fun.
I am not sure how one could be tested for PvP skill levels.
Results, and results alone. They may not show a player's pure skill, but a combined strength of his or her skill and equipment. Of course a system set up to measure that is prone to be gamed a lot.
Also, can one get better at PvP, if they are sequestered from higher skilled players? Would there even be an incentive to improve, if all the player opponents you faced were equal to you?
Yes, although that isn't an ideal situation. Judging from chess or go you learn by studying what the great players do, but when playing yourself the most valuable opponents are those which are ahead of you but not by too much. Getting trashed doesn't teach much more than trashing others. You need a fighting chance, but a better opponent so you really have to show your best and really concentrate, to get the best learning effect. But you will learn more by playing against similar strength opponents and trying to find an edge than by getting one shot.
Also, for most players it is more fun to have a balanced match and not to curb stomp or get stomped. Getting better is nice, but having fun doing it is as well.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Sorry, but I play for the fun of it being a Star Trek MMORPG. This is not a Star Trek MOBA (Star Trek Alien Domain). I can't stand the toxic attitude of players who PvP, and who think PvP should pack in more rewards for the privilege and think they should be able to raid other people's hard earned assets, as it then becomes a P2W game, which STO is not.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
I usually just lurk and read the forums, but to create a real PVP system, would it not be better to use the tier system that already exists?
Players are always restricted to standard ships with standard consoles and weapons, nothing outside of craftable at that tier, available to each faction from tier 1 up until they reach tier 6 at which point the gloves are off for what you use.
When you enter a PVP area you are put into an instance were you only encounter players of your tier. In order to be able to play at higher tiers perhaps you have to score a certain amount of victories, either straight kills or mission related or even some of both. This ensures players are reaching a certain skill before moving on to the bigger leagues in a ladder style, but also allows players who just like the lower tiered ships to go in and slug it out.
Requiring limits on what can be equipped and the types of ships at lower tiers helps balance the field and keep strict vape pvpers from stomping newer players until they've had a good deal of practice and worked their way up. I suspect a good number of players would enjoy lower tiers as they can have balance and simplified ships, allowing piloting and tactics to come more to play.
Comments
I hate to say it, but PvP is a hot button subject that inevitably leads to a fight.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Ironic isn't it? In game PvP discussion turns into forum PvP.
The eternal battle between light and dark is ever part of life's cycle.
In my experience, when someone starts talking about the 'bitterness and vitriol' of other players, it's usually followed by exactly that, coming from themselves. To wit:
Yada, yada, yada. And Q.E.D.
LOL! Well, I am sure you would be happy to see me and my ship 'splode into smithereens, too.
But thanks for being nice about it.
Really, I have tried PvP with a friend or two...and found: I can not do it.
There is just a mental block...I can not hit someone that I know is an actual person.
I can't even "test" things on someone else.
As in Frtoaster offered to allow me to shoot at him to try out some theory of mine. I have forgotten what it was I was trying to figure out...knowing me, it probably had something to do with Immunity (I was really hot on that TRIBBLE for a while). I had to turn him down to be my test dummy because I can not shoot him!!!!
That is why I don't PvP, though I do study it, at times.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I have never seen anything like EVE, I just can't have that much salt in my diet.
I agree here. In theory, adapting your build to the current meta/stats of the current enemy actually is kind of fun, and I sometimes do that for arcs, but in the long run I don't want 23 different loadouts. Well, the loadouts alone wouldn't be too bad, the inventory management however would be tedious to me.
And that's what I do. However, when somebody insults me for not PvPing and claims it is, indeed, a badge of shame, I respond. If the OP dishes out against non PvP, he should be ready for some echoes.
I'm not far off you age wise and my competitive urge has long since left me. PvP is a young man's game. Though amphetamines would actually make things worse, not better. Give that young man a chemistry lesson.
I haven't actually rolled out my Kara in a while, kind of got in the Khopesh and got glued into it.
However, OP, if you want to post an encouraging message, you should probably go back over it once you've typed it and remove all references to haters, vitriol spewing, wounded egos etc. Those are just backhanded attacks on old issues that have no relevance to your core point. Mixing even mild abuse with your encouragement just reminds people why they don't like PvP in the first place.
At any rate, your primary point being 'STO PvP isn't as dead as it is sometimes made out to be', I got it. It doesn't particularly interest me but I may head down to Kerrat sometime to check it out, if only to complete a couple missions etc. that require it.
I am not sure the PvP players is as organized....or can be organized as such, though.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I think in theory the grouping system for queues is intended to do just that. As for it working, I won't comment. Though I doubt that just taking DPS channel numbers would resolve the issue, they're mostly about set environments with known strategies, while one of the points of the OP was that PvP doesn't have them as much and you have to adapt and not necessarily maximize your damage output alone.
Yet another, also raised above, would be for gear to have a second set of stats which are used instead of their primary stats... again, only in PvP spaces. There is some precedent for this: several effects have different values when used against NPCs as opposed to other players.
Sadly, from what I've read in the linked thread, there seems to be a terminal lack of interest on the part of the dev team in making fair, balanced PvP - note that this is distinct from not having the time/personnel to do so because of the crafting of upcoming content.
Players can be sorted by how well geared they are. But THAT isn't the whole story with PvP, either.
Your age does make a big difference on response times, too....and that is in any fighting arena, not just video games.
I am not sure how one could be tested for PvP skill levels.
Also, can one get better at PvP, if they are sequestered from higher skilled players? Would there even be an incentive to improve, if all the player opponents you faced were equal to you?
And that is just avoiding the "elephant in the room"....the attitudes of crowd that does PvP, now.
+++++++
The links in your post do not seem to be working for me, right now. I have to get out of ARC...will look later.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
In the end to me it boils down to poor and unfun game design.
Not just the lockboxes, though....it is all of it.
Specialization, T-6 Mastery, Event grind...these last few event ships new Experimental weapons, starship traits and consoles mean they are not just useful for Admiralty Cards, any more.
And there are SOOOOO many one right after the other, after the other.....there is no break between the lockboxes and events.
Some people have the time (and pocket change) to keep their heads above the rush...good for them. It is not for me.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Results, and results alone. They may not show a player's pure skill, but a combined strength of his or her skill and equipment. Of course a system set up to measure that is prone to be gamed a lot.
Yes, although that isn't an ideal situation. Judging from chess or go you learn by studying what the great players do, but when playing yourself the most valuable opponents are those which are ahead of you but not by too much. Getting trashed doesn't teach much more than trashing others. You need a fighting chance, but a better opponent so you really have to show your best and really concentrate, to get the best learning effect. But you will learn more by playing against similar strength opponents and trying to find an edge than by getting one shot.
Also, for most players it is more fun to have a balanced match and not to curb stomp or get stomped. Getting better is nice, but having fun doing it is as well.
Players are always restricted to standard ships with standard consoles and weapons, nothing outside of craftable at that tier, available to each faction from tier 1 up until they reach tier 6 at which point the gloves are off for what you use.
When you enter a PVP area you are put into an instance were you only encounter players of your tier.
In order to be able to play at higher tiers perhaps you have to score a certain amount of victories, either straight kills or mission related or even some of both. This ensures players are reaching a certain skill before moving on to the bigger leagues in a ladder style, but also allows players who just like the lower tiered ships to go in and slug it out.
Requiring limits on what can be equipped and the types of ships at lower tiers helps balance the field and keep strict vape pvpers from stomping newer players until they've had a good deal of practice and worked their way up.
I suspect a good number of players would enjoy lower tiers as they can have balance and simplified ships, allowing piloting and tactics to come more to play.
Just a thought.