The problem is that when PVPers demand nerfs for everything that kills them or they can't kill, those nerfs are applied to PVE too.
99% of players lose fun toys because the 1% doesn't want to deal with them in PVP. Getting rid of that 1% is most definitely a fix that would let the rest of us keep our fun.
I usually just lurk and read the forums, but to create a real PVP system, would it not be better to use the tier system that already exists?
-details redacted-
Thank you, gentlemen; you've summed up fairly well most of my musings as to how PvP could be balanced to be challenging-but-fair. To reiterate: PvP balance must be strictly firewalled from PvE balance (how on Terra does an MMO dev team miss such an elementary point as this?!); and the playing field must be level (in other words, Zen/dil/EC are completely irrelevant, cutting off the 'wallet warriors' at the pass).
OK...Heat Pump guy is gone...so I am ready to get the heck off this Forum, again.
First of all, there are toxic players in PvE as well. Isn't this why most people went to private, and public queues never "pop"??? And turn off their Zone chat??? So, don't look down at players who do PvP....and say, that is the problem. There isn't much loft to your position.
THAT problem is everywhere and no one has addressed it.
I pretty much given up on any teaming on STO all together. You will never talk to me in the game because I have shut it all down. And lucky I am even here in the Forums, at all. I been trying to break this bad habit, too.
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Systems where gear is limited just for PvP will not work. Cryptic's rate of return on placing a system like that will not pay off. There isn't enough people doing PvP (or even willing to try). And how do you keep power creep out of a system like this and still sell stuff to people who don't care to play that Space Barbie game?
PvPers don't care how ugly that ship is...as long as it has something they need to beat your TRIBBLE.
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Tier system just for PvP is even more extensive. Because it is going to have to go on top of all the rest of the systems in STO: specializations, gear, reputation, traits, starship traits, skill tree, BOFF choices.
If you have not noticed: Level 60 is an ARMS RACE (PvP or PvE). He who gets to the new shiny first OR he who figures out the next synergistic combination, WINS!! Does not matter how broken or unintended it is. Anyone can use ANYTHING (from any level, no matter how old) and upgrade it. And add modifications as they see fit.
You really can't put Tiers into "gear"...when that target keeps moving (even with one click of traits or BOFFs or change of active specialization or new stuff). HOW?
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I think the only way to have decent balance in competition will be in self regulation. And all you might be able to get Cryptic to do is to arrange systems to make it easier to shut things down that are unnecessary to compete in fair or balanced PvP. Policing this is near impossible. Because there are always people trying to get and getting around systems.
If you want more participation, I advise to exhibit self control and contain yourselves to your better nature and good sportsmanship....even in an atmosphere of negativity and hate and exhibitions of it from the other side.
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Well....this whole comment didn't turn out the way I was thinking when I first started it. Sorry, for the big huge rant....but what the hell...may as well go out with it, now.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
That's all more than one factor though, Nimbull. There's game design, but there's also game management. to give you the example:
in 2012, more players ALSO indulged in PvP-as a percentage, and in raw numbers, than they do presently. the game was actually LESS refined then, than it is now, but the design was better balanced than it is presently, since the PvP segment used one of the easiest forms of game balance:
Faction balance. Faction balancing works by enabling non-identical forces to be 'different and powerful in different ways'. Fed players had Science ships and tanky cruisers that worked well with detection grids that don't move a lot and formation fighting (the "Fedball" famous in Ker'rat) to counter Klingon ships, with their weaker shielding, higher speeds, and cloaking. Fed players got better escorts (hull and shield mod with the same weapons fit), KDF got Birds of Prey or carriers instead of dedicated science ships, (except for the sub-standard Gorn models, which were substandard in part to maintain this differential balance). at a rough 20% of the player base (okay, 19 and a fraction at it's peak in 2012) it worked out-KDF forces by definition were smaller in the open grounds of Ker'rat, and only rarely and with lots of coordinatino could they manage to out number Fed players.
The result were fairly even most of the time, with a slight advantage Fed-side the majority of the time, because their designs worked to work together. One of the reasons for the complaints leading to Fed Vs. Fed arenas, was that speed and initiative became significantly stronger when forces were numbers-matched. (arenas, C&H), and a lot of Fed players refused to PvP against anybody who had stealthing tech, while content-deprived KDF players pretty much had to level against each other at the initial release of the faction, and there was a strong "Factional pride" thing going. (this served as a draw for roleplayers on both sides.)
Homogenization of the factions, the ending of factional maps (aside from Kerrat and Otha), removed the weak factional balancing, the addition of cross-faction faction with the BEST cloak matched to the BETTER (fed-style) hull and lots of advantages pretty much killed what was keeping the bulk of the community afloat.
that's right, Romulans killed FvF maps, which was the core motivator for calls for "Universal factioning" the PvP maps and RVB setups, because the Feds who remained couldn't get a match for love nor money after Legacy of Romulus really took hold.
The real killer though, was D'Angelo's term as EP and the unleashing of Borticus and his fetish for uncounterable powers and rampant power-creep. that pretty much finished off what was left, the result can be seen with the disintegration of what was left of the PvP community post-Delta Rising, in September of 2015 we had at least three regular (Monthly) sponsored tournaments going, advertised in the forums and on reddit, people were talking about forming leagues, after Delta Rising, it declined to zero by 2016 due to loss of, or lack of, interest.
The initial design was pretty good, it was managed into non-existence.
Wow....Cryptic blew that all to hell, now.
And that says much more about how little commitment Cryptic has to PvP or any fixes of PvP......than addition of "Competitive Rep" and queues.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
First of all, there are toxic players in PvE as well. Isn't this why most people went to private, and public queues never "pop"??? And turn off their Zone chat??? So, don't look down at players who do PvP....and say, that is the problem. There isn't much loft to your position.
Well, it is *my* reason. And yes, I had douches in PvE queues, too. Though the rate of occurence in my personal experience was way lower. That also isn't looking down on PvP players in general, it is just that the risk seems not to be worth the reward in terms of enjoyment of this game.
Apart from that: I don't know whether I am one of the more prolific "ignore" users, but I do that a lot. Still, for me it is a difference whether somebody is a buttockopening towards the void in general, or towards me.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
This is getting to be another one of those F.C.T.s. I've seen several over the years trying to interest others into trying PvP. I don't PvP, ever. Not even for an Endeavor. I didn't sign onto STO, nor would I sign into any other MMO if I played any others, to fight with other players. I signed on to do my own thing. To tell people who feel that way or who like to space-Barbie that they're doing it wrong is absolutely not the way to get them interested in PvP. It's not anyone's place to tell others that they're doing it wrong just because they're doing it differently than you do it.
That is the only way anyone can 'do it wrong', IMO.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
I'm closing this thread because it's long since gone off course after asking nicely to keep things civil. /closed
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Comments
Thank you, gentlemen; you've summed up fairly well most of my musings as to how PvP could be balanced to be challenging-but-fair. To reiterate: PvP balance must be strictly firewalled from PvE balance (how on Terra does an MMO dev team miss such an elementary point as this?!); and the playing field must be level (in other words, Zen/dil/EC are completely irrelevant, cutting off the 'wallet warriors' at the pass).
First of all, there are toxic players in PvE as well. Isn't this why most people went to private, and public queues never "pop"??? And turn off their Zone chat??? So, don't look down at players who do PvP....and say, that is the problem. There isn't much loft to your position.
THAT problem is everywhere and no one has addressed it.
I pretty much given up on any teaming on STO all together. You will never talk to me in the game because I have shut it all down. And lucky I am even here in the Forums, at all. I been trying to break this bad habit, too.
++++++++++++
Systems where gear is limited just for PvP will not work. Cryptic's rate of return on placing a system like that will not pay off. There isn't enough people doing PvP (or even willing to try). And how do you keep power creep out of a system like this and still sell stuff to people who don't care to play that Space Barbie game?
PvPers don't care how ugly that ship is...as long as it has something they need to beat your TRIBBLE.
+++++++++++++
Tier system just for PvP is even more extensive. Because it is going to have to go on top of all the rest of the systems in STO: specializations, gear, reputation, traits, starship traits, skill tree, BOFF choices.
If you have not noticed: Level 60 is an ARMS RACE (PvP or PvE). He who gets to the new shiny first OR he who figures out the next synergistic combination, WINS!! Does not matter how broken or unintended it is. Anyone can use ANYTHING (from any level, no matter how old) and upgrade it. And add modifications as they see fit.
You really can't put Tiers into "gear"...when that target keeps moving (even with one click of traits or BOFFs or change of active specialization or new stuff). HOW?
++++++++++++
I think the only way to have decent balance in competition will be in self regulation. And all you might be able to get Cryptic to do is to arrange systems to make it easier to shut things down that are unnecessary to compete in fair or balanced PvP. Policing this is near impossible. Because there are always people trying to get and getting around systems.
If you want more participation, I advise to exhibit self control and contain yourselves to your better nature and good sportsmanship....even in an atmosphere of negativity and hate and exhibitions of it from the other side.
++++++++++++
Well....this whole comment didn't turn out the way I was thinking when I first started it. Sorry, for the big huge rant....but what the hell...may as well go out with it, now.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Wow....Cryptic blew that all to hell, now.
And that says much more about how little commitment Cryptic has to PvP or any fixes of PvP......than addition of "Competitive Rep" and queues.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Well, it is *my* reason. And yes, I had douches in PvE queues, too. Though the rate of occurence in my personal experience was way lower. That also isn't looking down on PvP players in general, it is just that the risk seems not to be worth the reward in terms of enjoyment of this game.
Apart from that: I don't know whether I am one of the more prolific "ignore" users, but I do that a lot. Still, for me it is a difference whether somebody is a buttockopening towards the void in general, or towards me.
Most of my ignore list is goldsellers. A couple are from a certain fleet though.
That is the only way anyone can 'do it wrong', IMO.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator