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PSA: Time To Give PVP A Try
usskentucky
Member Posts: 402 Arc User
I keep reading things like “PVP is dead” or PVE-only players complaining about attempts to balance items/abilities because “no one plays PVP,” or “the 99% are getting screwed by the 1%.” Others, usually blatant trolls in these forums, complain about toxic players, and the same people who whine about broken abilities making PVP impossible are usually the FaW warriors who insult your mother when you turn the wrong way at the start of Infected Space.
Causal Forum Reader, don’t buy into the hatred for PVP spewed by the few players represented in this forum. Their bitterness and vitriol is not representative of reality. Somewhere, maybe not too long ago, these haters got their egos checked in the battle zone or arena and decided to try to ruin it for everyone. It’s really as simple as that. For some people, not performing well is only a reflection on others, never themselves, and they will do anything and everything they can to ruin the fun if they can’t be the center of attention. I have found that this holds true in-game as much as in the real world.
For the past week, I have seen up to five full instances filled in Ker’rat daily. Dozens of FED players are battling dozens of KDF players in epic battles, even as you read this. ROMS, you’re playing both sides, befitting your species, but I digress.
Several fleets are now putting together teams and facing each other in arena matches. And PVPers are even breaking out their wallets (see “Revenue,” Cryptic) or cashing in dilithium to buy the new shiny traits and ships. With some awesome new leadership my KDF fleet (House of Beautiful Orions) is now rocking 30+ players online at a time, making it easier and easier to punish the federation for its policies of homogenization and assimilation in the Beta Quadrant.
Instead of running the same missions over and over, you could be defending the federation’s borders or the Klingon Empire’s honor by taking the fight to the most intelligent, adaptive, and original enemies anywhere: other players.
Meanwhile, it remains nigh impossible to get FIVE people together for the vast majority of PVE queues, and with content being released in a trickle as the Cryptic staff works on the coming expansion, more and more people are taking a serious look at PVP as a way to enjoy the endgame. If you have found that the eternal luster of the Space Barbie wanes, and if the NPCs are no longer a challenge, I highly recommend giving PVP a shot.
Yes, you are going to get owned at first. To learn how to fight other players, I diligently flew to Ker’rat and asked for a sparring partner each week for a year, tweaking one console or ability or trait each time I failed until I had something viable. It may not take you as long as all that, especially if you research builds online, but be prepared to learn a new play style. Don’t worry, most PVP builds still perform in PVE. However, and unlike PVE, there is no “one build to rule them all,” and DPS is only one consideration among many.
Another good thing about PVP is that the “meta” changes over time and every player must keep growing. The mechanics are different in that more of them are actually useful, and if you truly love the game, you will find among PVP players the most knowledgeable and resourceful ship builders anywhere. I’m talking legit research and mathematics. You can build tanks, escorts, sci wizards, and unique combinations that suit your play style. Just join a fleet that PVPs and you will find help, because PVP fleets want their members to DOMINATE, not just DONATE.
Think about it. A PVE-centered playing experience has only one logical conclusion: amassing resources, usually at the expense of real world time and money, only so that it can be spent in a vacuum. If you are not playing with and against other players then you are unlocking ships, traits, and holdings that have no value beyond aesthetics. Why bother with an MMO?
Some will say the cost of entry is too high, that you have to purchase way too many traits and ships to be competitive, but there are entire factions of PVP players who refuse to use certain abilities and who are regarded as some of the most formidable in the game. It could be your niche, too. It doesn’t cost anymore to build a good PVP build than it does a PVE-DPS build, or a Space Barbie, or a themed ship. Odds are, if you’ve reached endgame, you’ve already amassed 3/4 of what you need. There have been plenty of posts explaining how to get your gear without opening your wallet. PVP can also be F2P if you research before buying, anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know how to grind.
PVP is the true endgame. You just need to approach it the way you approached STO all those years ago, with curiosity and a willingness to learn. It’s the best thing going, and despite claims in these forums to the contrary, today’s resurgent PVP population means it is here to stay.
Causal Forum Reader, don’t buy into the hatred for PVP spewed by the few players represented in this forum. Their bitterness and vitriol is not representative of reality. Somewhere, maybe not too long ago, these haters got their egos checked in the battle zone or arena and decided to try to ruin it for everyone. It’s really as simple as that. For some people, not performing well is only a reflection on others, never themselves, and they will do anything and everything they can to ruin the fun if they can’t be the center of attention. I have found that this holds true in-game as much as in the real world.
For the past week, I have seen up to five full instances filled in Ker’rat daily. Dozens of FED players are battling dozens of KDF players in epic battles, even as you read this. ROMS, you’re playing both sides, befitting your species, but I digress.
Several fleets are now putting together teams and facing each other in arena matches. And PVPers are even breaking out their wallets (see “Revenue,” Cryptic) or cashing in dilithium to buy the new shiny traits and ships. With some awesome new leadership my KDF fleet (House of Beautiful Orions) is now rocking 30+ players online at a time, making it easier and easier to punish the federation for its policies of homogenization and assimilation in the Beta Quadrant.
Instead of running the same missions over and over, you could be defending the federation’s borders or the Klingon Empire’s honor by taking the fight to the most intelligent, adaptive, and original enemies anywhere: other players.
Meanwhile, it remains nigh impossible to get FIVE people together for the vast majority of PVE queues, and with content being released in a trickle as the Cryptic staff works on the coming expansion, more and more people are taking a serious look at PVP as a way to enjoy the endgame. If you have found that the eternal luster of the Space Barbie wanes, and if the NPCs are no longer a challenge, I highly recommend giving PVP a shot.
Yes, you are going to get owned at first. To learn how to fight other players, I diligently flew to Ker’rat and asked for a sparring partner each week for a year, tweaking one console or ability or trait each time I failed until I had something viable. It may not take you as long as all that, especially if you research builds online, but be prepared to learn a new play style. Don’t worry, most PVP builds still perform in PVE. However, and unlike PVE, there is no “one build to rule them all,” and DPS is only one consideration among many.
Another good thing about PVP is that the “meta” changes over time and every player must keep growing. The mechanics are different in that more of them are actually useful, and if you truly love the game, you will find among PVP players the most knowledgeable and resourceful ship builders anywhere. I’m talking legit research and mathematics. You can build tanks, escorts, sci wizards, and unique combinations that suit your play style. Just join a fleet that PVPs and you will find help, because PVP fleets want their members to DOMINATE, not just DONATE.
Think about it. A PVE-centered playing experience has only one logical conclusion: amassing resources, usually at the expense of real world time and money, only so that it can be spent in a vacuum. If you are not playing with and against other players then you are unlocking ships, traits, and holdings that have no value beyond aesthetics. Why bother with an MMO?
Some will say the cost of entry is too high, that you have to purchase way too many traits and ships to be competitive, but there are entire factions of PVP players who refuse to use certain abilities and who are regarded as some of the most formidable in the game. It could be your niche, too. It doesn’t cost anymore to build a good PVP build than it does a PVE-DPS build, or a Space Barbie, or a themed ship. Odds are, if you’ve reached endgame, you’ve already amassed 3/4 of what you need. There have been plenty of posts explaining how to get your gear without opening your wallet. PVP can also be F2P if you research before buying, anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know how to grind.
PVP is the true endgame. You just need to approach it the way you approached STO all those years ago, with curiosity and a willingness to learn. It’s the best thing going, and despite claims in these forums to the contrary, today’s resurgent PVP population means it is here to stay.
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Comments
(Not really 'competitive' in PvE, either. I don't care that some other guild World Firsted a raid before me, or try to pursue high 'leaderboard' scores in Elder Scrolls Online's veteran dungeons, either. As others have said on this forum "Space Barbie is the true endgame"
If you don't like PVP, that's fine, don't participate. But as the OP said, it's far from dead. I go to Ker'rat every day, and there is always fun to be had for as many hours as you want to play; Less so if I'm one of two Feds versus 5-10 HOBOs, but sometimes thems the breaks.
It seems to be a rude awakening for DPS spreadsheet-makers to show up and get instagibbed, and learn they really have no idea how to actually PLAY the game, but like anything else in life, you get better over time with practice.
I somehow predict the usual whiners will show up to say PVP sucks (because they're bad at it).
So people who don't PvP are evil.
Well, because people may like amassing resources and changing aesthetics? As for ships having no value: different styles of playing with them may also be enjoyable beyond the need of being the best.
I am a very competitive player. I have played tournament chess for about 35 years now. I regularily enter other tournaments for board games and have organized quite a few. I am a geocacher as well, and my friends and I often place bets on who will reach a milestone or a certain kind of quality first. I enjoy that.
However, I don't enjoy competitive gaming online as much. I do some, especially again board games, but if the platform becomes too large you lose control over whom you are competing with. And while the majority of players may be (and are) nice enough, I just met too many who are not sharing my idea of fun and making it unenjoyable for me to participate. I tried open PvP in STO, met some huge douchebags, and decided not to continue down this road. I will do so against people I know, from my fleet as an example, though.
I am also not as competitive in general when it comes to computer games for whatever reason. I like me some challenge, but I am not interested in becoming the best, or even very good, necessarily. I don't need to beat Civilization on deity when I can have fun on king. I don't know why this is, but I think for me computer games are more a distraction where I want some story to happen, and not a place where I want to spend too much energy to hone my skills.
Why an MMO then? Well, I would play a Star Trek RPG if it were solo. This just happens to be an MMO. I am not really out to play MMOs, I tried a few (very few) and am only playing this one. There are some aspects of it being an MMO I like, but it really isn't necessary.
But if all of that makes me bitter and vitriolic, devoid of a sense of reality, a hater with a miniscule ego who wants to ruin your fun because I cannot understand how it is all my fault, and I am also the same in the real world, well, there you go:
Your fun be ruined.
Even all those "95% PvE game with a crappy PvP minigame duct-taped to the side" MMOs, which honestly have seemed to be the majority to me? They toss some PvP in, just so that they can attract a few more potential players (who then seem to think that they're the central focus of the game.)
Personally, I've always wondered why all these Serious PvP Players™ bother with the unbalanced junk PvP that exists in MMOs, rather than playing actual competitive games that are designed for & around PvP.
Actually, raiding is far more prevalent as endgame than PVP in MMOs. PVP IS NOT "the traditional endgame."
Also, PVP existing in UO in no way meant it was the most important part to the majority of players.
In STO, "Space Barbie is the real endgame" though "climbing the DPS charts" is probably second, followed by RP-ing, then chatting, then gold farming, then an interactive screen saver, then maybe PVP.
Should probably work to fix the PvPer mindset before trying to get more people to join.
As far as I'm concerned, PvP is a waste of time. Check back if Cryptic ever puts up decent rewards.
Space Barbie is the true endgame.
Raiding has become a big thing since WOW McDonald's-ized MMOs.
In no way am I here to tell people what part of the game to enjoy. I wouldn't tell anyone to PVP if they hated it, or just wanted an easier, more casual experience. I am saying PVP is the traditional MMO endgame since the beginnings of the genre, that is an objective fact whether one subjectively likes to PVP or not. PVP is very much not dead in STO, it's generally around whenever you want it in Ker'rat, generally for as long as you want it, objective fact.
As a comparison, I see people who like cats generally say "I like cats, dogs are fun too", and tend to see dog fanciers say "Cats are worthless, and evil, they killed my family!!!11!!one11!!". It generally seems the same to me for PVP versus PVE people.
I would further say for illustrative purposes, you can't pick up a guitar on day one and play like whatever guitar hero you like. You can't pick up a sport and play like a legend on day one. PVP is the same.
I will say, if you get decent at PVP, you will be practically god-like at PVE, but the reverse is not true, and I think this is where people get frustrated quickly
Do what you like. PVP is more fun than I think a lot of people realize, and hateful negative people are always the most vocal in life, which is what I think the OP was alluding to. PVP is much harder, but that does make it ultimately more rewarding when you become good at it.
I'm very big into space barbie and PVE as well. I wish featured episodes came out more often. For me, PVP stays fresh and is always entertaining when I'm tired of the same queues and replaying favorite episodes because its never the same game twice. Even the same opponents switch to different ships with different builds which adds even more variety.
PVP is not easy, and not for people who don't like a challenge. If someone wants to interpret that as an insult, I suppose said person can be my guest, but that's certainly not my intention with this post or any others in regards to this subject.
Gotta love it. Go kick some Fed asses.
You got a You Tube channel up yet? It's OK I will google.
I do not PvP ... but have fun with it the revival (if you all dare).
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
This thread was worth it just to see that GIF, IMHO.
I think we can agree on that.
Hmm, that makes me wonder.... did Everquest have a big PvP scene? Because when I think of "the beginning of the genre", I think of UO and Everquest. But, then, I didn't MMO back then, so I'm not terribly familiar with the pre-WoW scene.
(Been gaming since 1980 but WoW, vanilla-thru cata, was my first MMO. Other ones I put time into include City of Heroes, STO, Neverwinter, SWTOR, Secret World, ESO, and TERA. Poked around in a variety of eastern f2p's - Sword of the New World, Vindictus, Dragon Nest, Forsaken World, etc - but nothing serious)
No.
As it stands PvP is not about skill so much as it is about the spike DPS to the point NOTHING a player can do can survive a single pass. All the top PvPers are going to be running vape builds designed for maximum carnage in the shortest amount of time. It gets worse if they're in Pilot Escorts as they can actually zip around more, and even worse if its a Redshirt Romulan with a full set of Superior Romulan Operative Boffs.
Despite what some may say... the majority of players on the receiving end are going to explode before they can even blink.
That is not fun. That is rage inducing.
I'd have to agree with this. This is basically how friendly STO's PvP community is to those who aren't min/maxing every last decimal point of stats. PvP may be open for all, but it by no means is forgiving for all. For example, I've got a decent PvE build. I can take on pretty much any enemy type in the story and come out on top. I build balanced, and I prepare for just about anything. Breen? Ok, bring it on. Vaadwaur? Lets go. Iconians? A challenge with their disable spam but lets do it. Terrans? I love a challenge.
Stick me in a PvP with a vaper, on the other hand... I might as well not even bother touching the keyboard as by the time I blink, I've already been dead for 5 seconds. Basically... I get 360 no scoped.
In a PvP setting, I don't want to vape someone and wait for them to respawn so I can vape 'em again. I want an actual battle. Something that really has you thinking. I want to EARN that win. I don't want it handed to me on a silver platter by virtue of being able to vaporize anything just by looking at it. The most fun I had in Ker'rat was not vaping other players. It was a random duel between my Assault Cruiser and the opponent's Negh'var (if I remember correctly). It didn't come down to sheer DPS, it was skill, maneuvering, and timing of abilities. We were evenly matched. One wrong move could swing the battle in favor of one side or the other. THAT was fun.
PvP is not "the true endgame". Its a fascet of the game that people can go into and compete with each other. True Endgame is being able to take on high end PvE stuff.
The BEST PvP is when both sides have a chance, and victory is not a guarantee. As it stands now... that will never happen outside of a prearranged meet. Open PvP and any public queues that by some miracle actually pop are the domain of the one shot kill. Whoever Shoots First Wins. And generally that will ALWAYS be the vaper. Currently the only way to ruin a vaper's day is with massive amounts of Science, as even if a vaper can kill a top end science build... that science build will shortly get its revenge from beyond the grave if they were able to respond.
edit: don't you dare eat my post forum monster.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
no...
extra words to make minimum count to post
Accusing me of insults, yet comes to the official forums to say STO isn't a real game.
Fair enough. Nobody is saying you have to do anything. But I have a right to come and promote an aspect of the game I care about without being called names. Can anyone actually say that PVP-related posts get a fair treatment in these forums? Why would a new player attempt PVP when all he or she reads is negative.
Sure seems that way.
Obviously, the devs disagree with you or they would just let everything be OP. PVPers are an important part of this game's ecosystem because they are the first to try new equipment in unique combinations, resulting in better challenges in PVE content. You are welcome.
If you read my post as "full of hate and condescension" then you have thin skin and an inability to view the world with objectivity. Compared to the insults and calls to "end PVP" that follow any post even tangentially related to PVP in these forums I would say that I took it pretty easy on you and your brethren. Space Barbie can be fun, but I came here to share an alternative point of view.
You are more than welcome to join us in Ker'rat anytime you are feeling up to it.
Coldnapalm, re-read the part about "blatant trolls." Hold the words in your mind's eye as you get up from your computer and walk to this mirror. Look in the mirror.
Exactly, if you are bored and looking for something to do at endgame, then PVP is a great rabbit hole to climb into.
I'm low on the totem pole, but do find us on Discord. We'd be happy to see you.
Honestly, I hadn't anticipated scuttling sea creature, so I do not have a rebuttal at this time. Well played.
Thanks, and you can, too!
Never said it was easy. Actually, I said it took me more than a year to come up with a viable build. If you are patient, and if you learn to channel your rage into a desire to grow as a player, it creates a whole new game for you after you thought you'd done all there was to be done.
Well, at least you took the time to reply to a thread you were heavily invested in.
Once again, as I stated in the OP, we have the same old crows, crowing, trying to push people away from PVP before they even give it a chance. They claim they were insulted by my post, but the furthest I went was suggesting that PVE and Space Barbie can get boring over time and that PVP requires a higher level skill. I'm pretty sure both of these statements are objectively true and that those claiming to hate PVP have no stake in whether or not the PVP population grows. In fact, one player stated directly that he thinks STO is a terrible game, leaving me to wonder a few things: 1) Why bother coming on the forums? 2) Why try to tear down something the PVP players are trying to build? 3) Are there any limits to self-delusion? 4) How can we as players take back these forums from people who care nothing about STO and its endgame experience? I think there have been maybe one or two people in the thread who actually play PVP and they claim it is a fun experience. You can keep reading the forums and getting negative impressions from the same people who admit they do not play PVP. Or, you can resolve to give PVP a try, and with an open mind and a willingness to learn, you might find something you truly enjoy.
Those of us who actually care about STO and the PVP experience will be in Ker'rat waiting. After you get blown up, don't RAGE, but ENGAGE with your opponents, asking questions, getting advice, joining a tight-knit community that is growing by the day. It will take some time to accomplish your goals. But, unlike the forum-PVPers, that's why some of us continue to play STO after all these years.
You (might) be amazed at what some people spend on their PvE builds. I do understand what you're saying though. Cost of entry is prohibitive.
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So at the same time you think you are treated unfairly and are being called names while you have the right to take it even less easy on people with differing opinions "and their brethren"?
The latter requires a different kind of skill and preferences. Maybe higher level, maybe not. But about "the furthest I went":
Let's just say I disagree with your assertion that you weren't insulting.
By the way, referring to real or perceived real life shortcomings of people in such a discussion already tends to show you have no real argument, because the way I am as a person in real life has nothing to do with the validity of my arguments or opinions.
And again:
You already preemptively call every opinion differing from yours not logical. Way to show an open mind yourself.
For STO, I really agree as there is no real PVE endgame, no real challenge.
PVP might be a good way to get away from the boredom, but it won't be for everyone. Some people just don't like the competitive nature of it and want to chill and enjoy a good story while being challenged, somewhat, by the AI.
Let's remember, this is mostly a MMO for casuals, so although there might be more challenging objectives for those who strive for more, a lot of the player base will be content re-doing the fleet actions on normal difficulty.
Or if they feel bold... Advanced!
Your argument was very well presented, however, starting to think about getting myself a PVP build now.
*Claps at seriously excellent post* Well said. STO is a causal game for Star Trek Fans, not hardcore gamers and it needs to remain that way.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator