As much as people want to hate on the person or persons who kicked this all off, they did have a valid point.
An overpriced price AAA title (£50+ for multiplayer focussed game is insane given how short a lifespan they can have) shouldn't have gamble boxes for cash built into it. If they have to be there then it should only be for ingame currency.
F2P games were using the gamble box model fairly well prior to that but its the big publishers that have to answer to shareholders seeing it as a way of making bank that took it too far.
UBI filtered cash shop stuff into the AC series although they seem to have got ahead of things and done the ingame option, not played origins. Shadow of war focusses more on cash boxes with only bottom tier for game muny, only recently picked that up on gmg for under £30.
The only surprising thing about the debacle is that EA have only just been slapped on the wrists for it. Probably because its star wars rather than one of their many mobile games. Whats happened to them is poetic justice after all the studios they bought, milked and killed.
No, they didn't. It's just BigBrother nanny-state do-as-I-say-because-ism. It might be 'an accurately expressed concern' from an intellectual standpoint, but that doesn't make it, or their goal 'valid'. It does, however, make it Very capable of TRIBBLE up the game we all love. So for the third time; Do you want this game to close down?
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I find it a little humorous how some people think it would be a giant TRIBBLE slap to cryptic if they would have to publish the odds for their lockboxes. Let's be real...multiple tests have been done and the information is accessible too those that give a TRIBBLE. Everyone knows the odds are bad... less than 1%.
I find it a little humorous how some people think it would be a giant **** slap to cryptic if they would have to publish the odds for their lockboxes. Let's be real...multiple tests have been done and the information is accessible too those that give a ****. Everyone knows the odds are bad... less than 1%.
If publishing the odds of the LockBoxes would be enough to keep things as they are, I'd be all for it. Those who want to insist that it's gambling, I don't think they will be. Playing Devil's Advocate, I can see why they would say that just publishing the odds wouldn't be good enough, just as they would also say age verification wouldn't work, because it wouldn't be 100% fool-proof, so it wouldn't be good enough... Make no mistake, they want to get games like this shut down, because they think they know best, and think that their 'concern' means things need to be changed, rather than people just having responsibility for their actions. You enjoy playing this game, don't you? Do you think it's funny that it could potentially be shut down over this issue? Is that also 'a little humorous'?
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My hope is that F2P games come out the other side relatively unscathed, perhaps with a better system applied to the gamble boxes even if that is a bit more transparency over how good or bad the odds are.
Mobile "games" and full price AAA publishers that use gamble boxes to generate income deserve all they have coming to them.
Your third paragraph, makes no such statement. You simply discussed the F2P games using boxes, and that some took it too far. that doesn't equate to you not wanting tthe game to get shut down. In fact, without you making a definitive statement, it reads like you would like the game to be shut down, because the game's format (F2P and boxes) would allign with those who you have said 'took things too far'.
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to figure out your actual opinion of the subject, with how it relates to the future of this game.
My hope is that F2P games come out the other side relatively unscathed, perhaps with a better system applied to the gamble boxes even if that is a bit more transparency over how good or bad the odds are.
Mobile "games" and full price AAA publishers that use gamble boxes to generate income deserve all they have coming to them.
Great. Please stop calling them 'gamble boxes', it's a dishonest title, and the more the title gets thrown around (by people as a whole) the easier it will be for those who would get the game (and games like it) shut down for using them, to point to evidence that players view them as such. I had to resort to French yesterday to make the nature of the boxes clear, I'd rather not have to repeat myself
I don't want this game to shut down, you don't want this game shut down, so let's not give those who would, any additional ammunition Do you have any thoughts on how the boxes could be rebranded to not fall under a definition of 'gambling'? Or any other potential ways of bringing money into the game which could get implemented? As I said above, these ideas may never get passed on, or considered, but we would at least then have the knowledge that we tried, rather than merely capitulating
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
The process of using money for a chance at something isn't gambling?
Maybe you prefer the term "idiot tax"
*sigh*
Do you think you're being clever? Is your tone not coming across as intended through writing, or are you just going out of your way to be a A hole?
I already highlighted the difference between 'gambling' and 'opportunities to win'over the page. Given that you're begging the question, I'm not repeating myself to address it.
Either add something constructive to the conversation, or stop trying to enable them geting this game shut down, and go away.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It's the internet, not a **** kindergarten! I'm sorry that these kids are incapable of delaying gratification, and that their parents don't give them the attention they need, or that DaboMan892 can't stop himself clicking, but don't try and gaslight me, that there's any need to impugn on everyone else's entertainment! Which is exactly what legislation on this matter, is very likely going to do.
Just because Benefits Dave down the road is an alcoholic, is no reason why the whole town has to go dry, just so he can't fell off the wagon and drink something!
Why are you defending this?? I repeat my question: Do you want this game to close?
There are larger concerns than you or I or even STO. But do I want STO to shutdown? No. However, I do recognize that as an elected Democratic member of the House of Representatives, Christopher Lee is in fact doing his job which is to protect American citizens in general. Ideally that is what a public official is suppose to do (without being corrupted).
If EA did not make lootboxes so integrated into the progression system in Star Wars Battlefront 2 to the point where it is predatory in nature, then this would have been a non-issue. It became so much of a debacle that news outlets like CNBC, Forbes, CNN, and the BBC brought the issue to light to the general public.
You can blame whoever you like...
- EA for creating this issue to begin with.
- News outlets for bringing this issue to the attention of the mass public.
- Politicians and public officials (who are not elected by the general public depending on the country) that want to prevent similar occurrences from happening again in the future.
There is nothing you can really about it other than wait and see what the outcome will be. You can scream and rage all you want if it makes you feel better, but in the end that will have no affect on the outcome. If you live in one of the 4 or 5 US states looking into creating legislation to regulate lootboxes, then you can call / send an email to those politicians involved regarding your concern about how the potential legislation is going to affect STO. But I suspect your concerns will fall on deaf ears.
I know that that's what instigated it. It doesn't matter who/how/what/why the whole bruhaha came into being, I'm more concerned about how it's going to affect the game which we all love (and many other games, which countless other people love).
It's fine that you are concerned
Quote mixup. The above was not posted by me, but by @silverlobes.
Sorry about that, I guess I edited out the wrong user id.
Emotions appear to be running a bit high in here. Let's all take a step back and collect ourselves. Please keep things civil.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
It's the internet, not a **** kindergarten! I'm sorry that these kids are incapable of delaying gratification, and that their parents don't give them the attention they need, or that DaboMan892 can't stop himself clicking, but don't try and gaslight me, that there's any need to impugn on everyone else's entertainment! Which is exactly what legislation on this matter, is very likely going to do.
Just because Benefits Dave down the road is an alcoholic, is no reason why the whole town has to go dry, just so he can't fell off the wagon and drink something!
Why are you defending this?? I repeat my question: Do you want this game to close?
There are larger concerns than you or I or even STO. But do I want STO to shutdown? No. However, I do recognize that as an elected Democratic member of the House of Representatives, Christopher Lee is in fact doing his job which is to protect American citizens in general. Ideally that is what a public official is suppose to do (without being corrupted).
If EA did not make lootboxes so integrated into the progression system in Star Wars Battlefront 2 to the point where it is predatory in nature, then this would have been a non-issue. It became so much of a debacle that news outlets like CNBC, Forbes, CNN, and the BBC brought the issue to light to the general public.
You can blame whoever you like...
- EA for creating this issue to begin with.
- News outlets for bringing this issue to the attention of the mass public.
- Politicians and public officials (who are not elected by the general public depending on the country) that want to prevent similar occurrences from happening again in the future.
There is nothing you can really about it other than wait and see what the outcome will be. You can scream and rage all you want if it makes you feel better, but in the end that will have no affect on the outcome. If you live in one of the 4 or 5 US states looking into creating legislation to regulate lootboxes, then you can call / send an email to those politicians involved regarding your concern about how the potential legislation is going to affect STO. But I suspect your concerns will fall on deaf ears.
And the point which is being missed, is that Christopher Lee does not represent people living outside of America. He is not my democratically elected representative. Nor is he the democratically elected representative of players in Belgium, or Germany. Yet his actions, affect us as well.
Do American citizens actually need 'protecting'? Or should they be allowed the autonomy to make their own decisions and live by the consequences of such? Again, this is not kindergarten...
You're mistaking my attempts to be clear and emphatic (about the points I'm trying to convey) as 'screaming and raging'. The screaming and raging, will come if this nonsense succeeds, and LockBoxes get outlawed in Europe, and if Cryptic either doesn't react, or fails to react in a particular way, and thus has to shut down because it loses a significant section of its playerbase. There will be rage and screams from those unable to play the game any more, and at it's core, will be the frustration of knowing that they did nothing to try and prevent it.
But not me. Sure, I'll be hellishly disappointed, but I'll at least be able to tell myself that I at least made suggestions to my community to try and preserve it.
What have you suggested, which Cryptic may or may not consider?
Have you actually suggested anything constructive at all just been an armchair commentator?
And if what we post here makes no difference to what Cryptic is going to do, then I'm not going to waste my time arguing about it, because that it will make no difference either.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Why bother with how you see it? That's irrelevant, except for your personal spending. What is relevant, however, is what the authorities decide.
And how Cryptic/PWE can react to it.
Were you addressing that to me?
Yes. You make a big (and not invalid) points about some classifications of lockboxes may be unfair or incomplete. But your (or my, or any other player's) assessment is irrelevant. Your ideas about solutions for the very practical problem of "where does the money come from if lockboxes get ruled out", however, may be useful. So why not focus on that?
Because (and as I have literally only just posted, so apologies for the copy/paste response) if what we post here makes no difference to what Cryptic is going to do, then I'm not going to waste my time discussing it, because that it will make no difference either.
I've made my suggestions/recommendations for a way in which Lock Boxes could be revised to not be gambling. I'm not prepared to waste my time defending/discussing those suggestions/recommendations. I've said my piece, I'm satisfied that I've done what I can, so I'm recusing myself from the discussion.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Lockboxes are not gambling. It's purchasing an item without knowing what it is in advance. This is no functionally different than trading card packs or even f-ing easter eggs with a random toy inside.
Lockboxes are not gambling. It's purchasing an item without knowing what it is in advance. This is no functionally different than trading card packs or even f-ing easter eggs with a random toy inside.
Nail on the head!
I was gonna go over my usual diatribe on the legal definition of gambling, and the fact you always win with lockboxes, to which Gambling Law does not apply.
Anyone saying the practice that Cryptic undertakes is unlawful is wrong. You don't need anything out of any lockbox, just as with Kinder Eggs.
Let's look at Magic:The Gathering, which is the same as Lockboxes in this game. You don't need to buy the booster packs to play the game, just the starter pack, but in Magic, you do need to buy more to vastly improve your chances of winning. In STO you don't.
If Governments shut down lockboxes, they also shut down EVERY TRADING CARD GAME! There was an unsuccessful lawsuit in the 90's which tried to prove Magic et all were in effect, gambling, and it FAILED!
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
And the point which is being missed, is that Christopher Lee does not represent people living outside of America. He is not my democratically elected representative. Nor is he the democratically elected representative of players in Belgium, or Germany. Yet his actions, affect us as well.
Do American citizens actually need 'protecting'? Or should they be allowed the autonomy to make their own decisions and live by the consequences of such? Again, this is not kindergarten...
You're mistaking my attempts to be clear and emphatic (about the points I'm trying to convey) as 'screaming and raging'. The screaming and raging, will come if this nonsense succeeds, and LockBoxes get outlawed in Europe, and if Cryptic either doesn't react, or fails to react in a particular way, and thus has to shut down because it loses a significant section of its playerbase. There will be rage and screams from those unable to play the game any more, and at it's core, will be the frustration of knowing that they did nothing to try and prevent it.
But not me. Sure, I'll be hellishly disappointed, but I'll at least be able to tell myself that I at least made suggestions to my community to try and preserve it.
What have you suggested, which Cryptic may or may not consider?
Have you actually suggested anything constructive at all just been an armchair commentator?
And if what we post here makes no difference to what Cryptic is going to do, then I'm not going to waste my time arguing about it, because that it will make no difference either.
I am pretty sure Christopher Lee has very little influence in Germany where German government officials are looking into the matter themselves. You are simply making him a scapegoat.
The potential banning of lootboxes in Germany is based on a University of Hamburg study which found that an increasing amount of games are containing more elements of gambling than they have previously. That study is likely the reason why the German Youth Protection Commission is considering a ban on lootboxes.
I guess a simple solution would be a fixed amount of lobi per box.
There is no need for that. You are getting Lobi when opening a box, which is what Lockboxes are actually for. There is no chance of loss as you are getting something of value whenever you open a box.
I can see changing the law to classify lootboxes as gambling IF they were the only means to collect gear/items that are REQUIRED to actually play the game.
the fact that the bonus item is random is questionable... call a horse a horse and not a zebra. anyone with common sense looking at it would know. your gonna say that PC on sale at ebay is for only $1 but shipping is $2k and you feel that is normal?
gambling is gambling and your trying to get folks to spend money. just post the odds. it's one thing if the only thing in the boxes were cosmetics and xp boosts. it's not. you have hero ships with uber stats and traits. that is "Pay to Win". Does these things make you god and one shot folks... no. But they are better than what is normally available. Why bother with actual ships in Lock Boxes... why not just make em cosmetic skins you can apply to your C-store ship? How many folks would then spend hundreds of keys to get that super rare ship skin?
Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing lockboxes go the way of the dinosaurs even if it means some games have to go. MMOs were more enjoyable when they didn't have the lockbox setup. Especially ones that tie power creep to their lock box systems instead of actual progression game play that keeps a story moving forward.
The problem is that not enough people will put money into MMOs by other means like subscriptions and C-Store sales.
Would you rather have lock boxes in STO, or half as many story episodes and no Trek voice actors? Speaking for myself I'd choose the gamble boxes.
I think I said if the lock boxes had to go and things shut down I wouldn't mind. So if STO shut down I wouldn't lose to much sleep over it.
The last really exciting bit of content I got out this game was Legacy of Romulus. Agents of Yesterday gave a little boost in the TOS aspects but since there were no Romulan and Klingon options from that expansion like there was Fed I feel it fell short. The game as a whole feels like it's not living up to it's potential and lock boxes are just stringing it along on life support.
And the point which is being missed, is that Christopher Lee does not represent people living outside of America. He is not my democratically elected representative. Nor is he the democratically elected representative of players in Belgium, or Germany. Yet his actions, affect us as well.
Do American citizens actually need 'protecting'? Or should they be allowed the autonomy to make their own decisions and live by the consequences of such? Again, this is not kindergarten...
You're mistaking my attempts to be clear and emphatic (about the points I'm trying to convey) as 'screaming and raging'. The screaming and raging, will come if this nonsense succeeds, and LockBoxes get outlawed in Europe, and if Cryptic either doesn't react, or fails to react in a particular way, and thus has to shut down because it loses a significant section of its playerbase. There will be rage and screams from those unable to play the game any more, and at it's core, will be the frustration of knowing that they did nothing to try and prevent it.
But not me. Sure, I'll be hellishly disappointed, but I'll at least be able to tell myself that I at least made suggestions to my community to try and preserve it.
What have you suggested, which Cryptic may or may not consider?
Have you actually suggested anything constructive at all just been an armchair commentator?
And if what we post here makes no difference to what Cryptic is going to do, then I'm not going to waste my time arguing about it, because that it will make no difference either.
I am pretty sure Christopher Lee has very little influence in Germany where German government officials are looking into the matter themselves. You are simply making him a scapegoat.
The potential banning of lootboxes in Germany is based on a University of Hamburg study which found that an increasing amount of games are containing more elements of gambling than they have previously. That study is likely the reason why the German Youth Protection Commission is considering a ban on lootboxes.
Oh well, if you're 'pretty sure' then that's okay then!
A scape goat, is someone who is wrongly given the blame for something they haven't done. This entire issue of LockBoxes, was brought up by some dude in Hawaii. It's been brought to Global attention, and it will now have Global Impacts. Do you no understand that. You clearly don't understand what 'recuse' means, or you wouldn't have directed a comment to me, demanding that I make a response.
If someone at the office catches a cold from an co-worker, they don't care who brought the cold to work, they care that they have a cold, and are going to feel unwell, have to buy medicines etc...
It doesn't matter who started it What matters, is that the EU are interested in the situation, the EU are discussing the situation, and could potentially come to a decision, which, based on things as they stand, could make this game cease to exist! So no, I am not 'making him a scapegoat', I pointed out the potentially massive impacts of this issue as a global whole and made a suggestion for how it could potentially be remedied. Which is more than you have done! All you have done, is made snarky comments, and been dismissive. But as has been already made very clear, Cryptic won't listen to me, and so I have better things to do than wasting my time arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin with someone who doesn't even grasp the fundamental impacts of the situation, and who is more interested in making snarky comments, and continuing an argument, than being constructive. If y'all want to continue discussing this amongst yourselves, go right ahead, but please don't direct any further comments to me about it. I really am not interested. I've made my suggestion for Cryptic at the top of pg 3, I've done my part, my conscience is clear, and I'm not prepared to waste my time conjecturing, debating, speculating, or otherwise discussing the topic with anyone.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
As some others have already pointed out, we should not confuse a US law proposal with this issue. And has been said, German regulations will apply here, not US ones. Which leads to some consequences:
- It will normally not matter whether you call them "Buy 3 Lobi and maybe a goodie bonus" or "Test out your luck and gamble for the win box". What will matter is the relative worth of what you get guaranteed to what you are aiming for. So basically the authorities will want to know why players are buying these boxes. Of course that differs, and it isn't easy (things like trading cards have been mentioned).
- Depending on the thrust the whole issue gets and the direction it is going, it may even be better (again: German law) to call them "Test out your luck and gamble", because that wouldn't be a name that could fool players. Though again, it is unlikely that it will matter.
- Generally speaking, semantics of "gambling" vs "winning opportunities" may become important, but it is not a matter what Cryptic says or what we say. And it is a sliding scale, there are functional differences whether everything you get is of the same type (a playing card, a toy, ...) and those where it isn't.
- Whatever you think about politicians, they have no influence whatsoever here. And there is no "They" who want to get games shut down, because there is no political agenda as such behind it. This is also not about "new regulations" or suchlike but about the interpretation of already existing laws.
- The actual odds may be required to be published, and the actual odds may have an influence on a decision (i. e. when the worth of a "baseline win" is high enough), but just publishing the odds will not make the BPJM go away.
As much as people want to hate on the person or persons who kicked this all off, they did have a valid point.
An overpriced price AAA title (£50+ for multiplayer focussed game is insane given how short a lifespan they can have) shouldn't have gamble boxes for cash built into it. If they have to be there then it should only be for ingame currency.(...)
Gotta disagree here though. What price is "insane" is easily up to debate - even a short lived game may give you more time of entertainment than some concerts, sports events, movies, ... The issue would be more one of hidden costs, that you "have to" pay more to get a full game. STO should be pretty save in that regard though.
Do American citizens actually need 'protecting'? Or should they be allowed the autonomy to make their own decisions and live by the consequences of such? Again, this is not kindergarten...
People already have a hard time accepting the consequences of their decisions if they were well informed. Yes, many should get more adult with this. But at the same time that cannot mean that everything is fair game. Especially again if it is accessible for people who just aren't adults yet (i. e. kids).
You're mistaking my attempts to be clear and emphatic (about the points I'm trying to convey) as 'screaming and raging'. The screaming and raging, will come if this nonsense succeeds, and LockBoxes get outlawed in Europe, and if Cryptic either doesn't react, or fails to react in a particular way, and thus has to shut down because it loses a significant section of its playerbase. There will be rage and screams from those unable to play the game any more, and at it's core, will be the frustration of knowing that they did nothing to try and prevent it.
But not me. Sure, I'll be hellishly disappointed, but I'll at least be able to tell myself that I at least made suggestions to my community to try and preserve it.
To be honest, your emphatic contributions do come across a bit as "screaming and raging". But to me less in the "he's loud and obnoxious" way, more in the "he's panicky and uncoordinated like a headless chicken" way. If we want to understand what may be going on (because this mostly is understanding, we won't indeed change anything), we would need clear analysis. Repitition of a mantra "this isn't gambling" won't help, we first need a clear understanding of how "gambling" is defined in this special case. Lockboxes in STO may easily not be gambling, but they may just as easily be. "We just need to rebrand it" - as has been said, no. Repeating it won't help. You don't want STO to shut down. Understood, neither do other players. You're looking for scapegoats like some politician or people not adult enough to face consequences of their actions, and you may just as well be correct that they are to blame for the situation, but the blame game doesn't solve problems.
Please don't understand this as a personal attack, it isn't meant as one. I emphasize with what you are trying to do, but I have the feeling you are shooting yourself an arrow into the knee here. Doing something for the sake of doing something is often enough the only course of action that can solve a problem. But more often it is not, and legal matters usually belong in this second group.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
They might have to make the keys account bound and bought via the website rather than in game.
Would allow minors to play and have access to the store while not exposing them to the gamble boxes.
Lotro's gamble boxes have keys as random drops and I think possibly also earnable with a lot of effort, so that would be another possible workaround. Kind of amazed that PWE hasnt gone this route as it would be a better hook for luring folk into the boxes than the current spamming of loot-tables and tweaking the drop rate to push a popular box (disco box drops far more often than the kethi one)
PoE's boxes are opened at purchase rather than loot drops and they clearly state the value is never less than the asking price, debatable for stuff like the fireworks but for cosmetics and stash tabs its pretty accurate. In comparison keys are a slightly more fluid price due to the exchange and the minor prizes are certainly not worth the same in a lot of cases.
Because the boxes have been in sto for so long now they can't as easily remove keys from the game.
I'd love for them to remove the padding from the boxes, be upfront and publish the %'s, have the boxes themselves on a fixed drop rate and just put the cosmetics into the boxes as an item not a chance of a chance via the weapon crates.
Only downside for me with moving keys out the store and web based would be I'd have nothing to spend stipend on until a t6 kar'fi arrives.
The real issue, is that there is no Universally agreed upon Age Approval system on the internet. There's nothing stopping a kid swiping a credit card from their parent, or getting the parent to sign up on their behalf. The Nanny-State Compliance Mongers, are saying that one of their areas for concern is 'the kids' and 'those who may be vulnerable to addictive behaviours' and they can leverage that, against the lack of a Universally Agreed System. A company could just say they'll make their game credit card subscription only. But that doesn't stop a kid siping the card, or getting the parent to sign up for them. Nor does it take into account adults who don't have credit cards. Then there's the issue of the fact that the game went F2P (I would guess, due to not enough subscriptions) People have been playing the game for free for the better part of a decade: I question how many of those players, would continue to play, if a subscription was the only way to play. The issue goes way beyond 'LockBoxes are gambling!' faux-outrage in terms of its implications on the future of the game. I just hope cooler heads prevail and shut this nonsense down, before it kills, not just our game, but many games which many people enjoy...
In Germany, we actually have a mechanism for age approval, like POSTIDENT. Banks also seem to use a video-chat-based system these days (though I never tried that myself.) Setting up different identification systems according to different countries laws will cost money and time, but it might be worth it if the alternative is losing the entire market.
Of course, it would be preferable if the EU would agree on something so that whatever will be required works the same way for all member countries.
Of course there is no perfect safety, but adding a hurdle in the first place will offer some protection.
That sounds good, I didn't know that Is that some kind of government-issued ID card, which is recognized in all shops etc, as a valid ID? As you say, doing it online, will cost time and money. It's by no means impossible, it'll just take time and money. It won't necessarily help in this specific instance, but it will definitely help in the future/long term
We have a government issued ID in Germany.
POSTIDENT however is not an ID, but a way to confirm your ID using the postal service (Deutsche Post).
Basically, if you expect some form of mail that requires verification (like the German equivalent of an R-Rated movie on Bluray, or maybe a credit card for you), the postal worker who will deliver the item or the post office where you collect the item will make the check, and the postal service will provide the neccessary paperwork to the person sending you the item, confirming that everything was in order.
It would probably still be awkard to do this for a F2P MMO, and it would present a hurdle to overcome not just for a kid, but also an adult player, but it might be preferrable to losing all those customers.
That is basically the most low tech / offline version. Apparently the post also has a video chat sstem.
Oh, and new German passports ("Personalausweis") can be equipped with a chip that could also be used online, but it's not a default feature yet I think, or rather, you have to say that you want that feature available. (It doesn't cost extra, but you will need a reader to use it for anything.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Lockbox ships are not better than c-store ships, I own many of both.
you need to talk about seating and traits. also HP and shields, turn rates... is there a site that has all these where you can sort and see?
Lock box ships are ahead. Tact Dread-carrier is ONLY on lockbox. Lock box ships are better by per stats.
Look at Escorts @ L60
These are all the Zen store ships you can buy - next is the Fleet version - Fleet does not come with trait or consoles!
Advanced Escort - 41,333/45,466
Tactical Escort - 40,000/44K
Phantom Intel Escort - 38,000/41.8K
Mercury Class Pilot Escort - 38,800 <- No fleet version
Theseus Temporal Escort - 36,000/39.6K
Caitian Shikaris Escort - 40,000/44K
Lobi - gotten from lock boxes also only character 1 time ship
NX Escort Refit - 45,000
Several Lock Box ships - Yes not all LB ships have super high hulls.
Amarie-class Smuggler's Heavy Escort - 46,000
Jem'Hadar Recon Ship - 46,000
Jem'Hadar Strike Ship - 46,000
Still saying LB ships are not better? BS, look at ship stats. Sure not all LB ship is better than the previous LB ship but on average a LB ship is superior.
We can apply various skins to our ships... there is no reason to put actual ships in LBs but to generate money cause those are better ships. Again they wont make you god and one shot people or content, but on paper looking at stats, seating etc... no question LBS edge out regular ships.
Cryptic can easily get around it by putting everything in the lockboxes into the Lobi store. Then only thing you will be doing with that key, is getting Lobi.
However, by that point, they might as well remove keys and just sell Lobi in the cstore, directly.
> @azrael605 said: > No lockbox ships are not better, they have slightly higher base hull & shields because they are already fleet grade when you get them. Fleet versions of c-store ships are at the same level of hull & shields. Traits and consoles are irrelevant and always will be no matter what ship your talking about. There is no "must have" trait or console that exists anywhere in the game, most of the time I utterly ignore traits & consoles because they have no impact whatsoever into how good the ship is. I might have 1 ship thats actually using the consoke that came with it. Boff seating for Lockbox/Lobi ships is the same as c-store ships (in terms of available number of Boff skills) with fewer options on spec seating (for example the Walker class has a Lt. & an Ensign spec seat, extremely limited, the Event Nandi has better spec seating with one seat). > > Lockbox/Lobi ships are exactly on par with fleet or fleet grade ships (ie Event ships, c-store ships like the Command Battlecruiser that are fleet grade out of the box, etc). Individual ship classes may be slightly ahead in one area or another, but they will be correspondingly lacking in another. At no point in the history of the game has any ship ever been just flatly better than all others, and they never will be. > >
Your first sentence doesn't really make sense and is really just wrong. If you look closely at stats Lockbox and lobi ships have higher shield and hull modifies then fleet ships. So they generally have slightly better stats overall then c-store and fleet ships. They generally also have more flexible boff layout with more universal stations.
Doing something for the sake of doing something is often enough the only course of action that can solve a problem. But more often it is not, and legal matters usually belong in this second group.
I have to disagree with that. "Doing something for the sake of doing something" is almost never a solution for anything and when it is, it's only by sheer dumb luck. Usually it makes things worse and/or creates new problems to go with the one they tried to solve.
Like this thing...are germans not going to have easter eggs this year, because it's "gambling?"
Doing something for the sake of doing something is often enough the only course of action that can solve a problem. But more often it is not, and legal matters usually belong in this second group.
I have to disagree with that. "Doing something for the sake of doing something" is almost never a solution for anything and when it is, it's only by sheer dumb luck. Usually it makes things worse and/or creates new problems to go with the one they tried to solve.
Like this thing...are germans not going to have easter eggs this year, because it's "gambling?"
The quote was by me, not sophlogimo. And yes, you are correct that it will fail more often than not, with "often enough" I wanted to say that you will get gazillions of people telling you how they were in a situation where they actually had to do something (in one minute the car will explode situations) and it worked. Usually we never get told of the people who tried something and failed. So basically I was toning it down for the sake of the argument and agree with you.
As for the latter part: easter eggs don't have a random element in Germany, they're just chocolate with or without filling (but it will tell you on the packaging when you buy it). Unless you mean Kinder eggs, which despite their form aren't as much associated with easter as they may be elsewhere.
And, as has already been said, the "you don't get the toy you wanted" aspect has some crucial differences. First the chocolate as a guaranteed "win" plus the "unwanted toy" compare way more favorably than winning a Vonph or not. Second, the overall amount of money spent and "risked" is not comparable to what some players do in online games.
Your reductio ad absurdum doesn't work here. Some things would be absurd to consider gambling. Some things are clearly gambling. The exact point where it changes is blurry, but comparing standard online gaming lockboxes to either end doesn't help your case neither for nor against.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
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"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My hope is that F2P games come out the other side relatively unscathed, perhaps with a better system applied to the gamble boxes even if that is a bit more transparency over how good or bad the odds are.
Mobile "games" and full price AAA publishers that use gamble boxes to generate income deserve all they have coming to them.
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to figure out your actual opinion of the subject, with how it relates to the future of this game.
Great. Please stop calling them 'gamble boxes', it's a dishonest title, and the more the title gets thrown around (by people as a whole) the easier it will be for those who would get the game (and games like it) shut down for using them, to point to evidence that players view them as such. I had to resort to French yesterday to make the nature of the boxes clear, I'd rather not have to repeat myself
I don't want this game to shut down, you don't want this game shut down, so let's not give those who would, any additional ammunition
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Maybe you prefer the term "idiot tax"
Do you think you're being clever? Is your tone not coming across as intended through writing, or are you just going out of your way to be a A hole?
I already highlighted the difference between 'gambling' and 'opportunities to win'over the page. Given that you're begging the question, I'm not repeating myself to address it.
Either add something constructive to the conversation, or stop trying to enable them geting this game shut down, and go away.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
There are larger concerns than you or I or even STO. But do I want STO to shutdown? No. However, I do recognize that as an elected Democratic member of the House of Representatives, Christopher Lee is in fact doing his job which is to protect American citizens in general. Ideally that is what a public official is suppose to do (without being corrupted).
If EA did not make lootboxes so integrated into the progression system in Star Wars Battlefront 2 to the point where it is predatory in nature, then this would have been a non-issue. It became so much of a debacle that news outlets like CNBC, Forbes, CNN, and the BBC brought the issue to light to the general public.
You can blame whoever you like...
- EA for creating this issue to begin with.
- News outlets for bringing this issue to the attention of the mass public.
- Politicians and public officials (who are not elected by the general public depending on the country) that want to prevent similar occurrences from happening again in the future.
There is nothing you can really about it other than wait and see what the outcome will be. You can scream and rage all you want if it makes you feel better, but in the end that will have no affect on the outcome. If you live in one of the 4 or 5 US states looking into creating legislation to regulate lootboxes, then you can call / send an email to those politicians involved regarding your concern about how the potential legislation is going to affect STO. But I suspect your concerns will fall on deaf ears.
Sorry about that, I guess I edited out the wrong user id.
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And the point which is being missed, is that Christopher Lee does not represent people living outside of America. He is not my democratically elected representative. Nor is he the democratically elected representative of players in Belgium, or Germany. Yet his actions, affect us as well.
Do American citizens actually need 'protecting'? Or should they be allowed the autonomy to make their own decisions and live by the consequences of such? Again, this is not kindergarten...
You're mistaking my attempts to be clear and emphatic (about the points I'm trying to convey) as 'screaming and raging'. The screaming and raging, will come if this nonsense succeeds, and LockBoxes get outlawed in Europe, and if Cryptic either doesn't react, or fails to react in a particular way, and thus has to shut down because it loses a significant section of its playerbase. There will be rage and screams from those unable to play the game any more, and at it's core, will be the frustration of knowing that they did nothing to try and prevent it.
But not me. Sure, I'll be hellishly disappointed, but I'll at least be able to tell myself that I at least made suggestions to my community to try and preserve it.
What have you suggested, which Cryptic may or may not consider?
Have you actually suggested anything constructive at all just been an armchair commentator?
And if what we post here makes no difference to what Cryptic is going to do, then I'm not going to waste my time arguing about it, because that it will make no difference either.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I've made my suggestions/recommendations for a way in which Lock Boxes could be revised to not be gambling. I'm not prepared to waste my time defending/discussing those suggestions/recommendations. I've said my piece, I'm satisfied that I've done what I can, so I'm recusing myself from the discussion.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
As I said, I'm recusing myself from the discussion, as it's clearly not constructive or of use to Cryptic.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Nail on the head!
I was gonna go over my usual diatribe on the legal definition of gambling, and the fact you always win with lockboxes, to which Gambling Law does not apply.
Anyone saying the practice that Cryptic undertakes is unlawful is wrong. You don't need anything out of any lockbox, just as with Kinder Eggs.
Let's look at Magic:The Gathering, which is the same as Lockboxes in this game. You don't need to buy the booster packs to play the game, just the starter pack, but in Magic, you do need to buy more to vastly improve your chances of winning. In STO you don't.
If Governments shut down lockboxes, they also shut down EVERY TRADING CARD GAME! There was an unsuccessful lawsuit in the 90's which tried to prove Magic et all were in effect, gambling, and it FAILED!
I am pretty sure Christopher Lee has very little influence in Germany where German government officials are looking into the matter themselves. You are simply making him a scapegoat.
The potential banning of lootboxes in Germany is based on a University of Hamburg study which found that an increasing amount of games are containing more elements of gambling than they have previously. That study is likely the reason why the German Youth Protection Commission is considering a ban on lootboxes.
the fact that the bonus item is random is questionable... call a horse a horse and not a zebra. anyone with common sense looking at it would know. your gonna say that PC on sale at ebay is for only $1 but shipping is $2k and you feel that is normal?
gambling is gambling and your trying to get folks to spend money. just post the odds. it's one thing if the only thing in the boxes were cosmetics and xp boosts. it's not. you have hero ships with uber stats and traits. that is "Pay to Win". Does these things make you god and one shot folks... no. But they are better than what is normally available. Why bother with actual ships in Lock Boxes... why not just make em cosmetic skins you can apply to your C-store ship? How many folks would then spend hundreds of keys to get that super rare ship skin?
Not only ships in lock boxes... you also have player and space traits. a number of "must have" is only found in lock boxes.
I think I said if the lock boxes had to go and things shut down I wouldn't mind. So if STO shut down I wouldn't lose to much sleep over it.
The last really exciting bit of content I got out this game was Legacy of Romulus. Agents of Yesterday gave a little boost in the TOS aspects but since there were no Romulan and Klingon options from that expansion like there was Fed I feel it fell short. The game as a whole feels like it's not living up to it's potential and lock boxes are just stringing it along on life support.
A scape goat, is someone who is wrongly given the blame for something they haven't done. This entire issue of LockBoxes, was brought up by some dude in Hawaii. It's been brought to Global attention, and it will now have Global Impacts. Do you no understand that. You clearly don't understand what 'recuse' means, or you wouldn't have directed a comment to me, demanding that I make a response.
If someone at the office catches a cold from an co-worker, they don't care who brought the cold to work, they care that they have a cold, and are going to feel unwell, have to buy medicines etc...
It doesn't matter who started it What matters, is that the EU are interested in the situation, the EU are discussing the situation, and could potentially come to a decision, which, based on things as they stand, could make this game cease to exist! So no, I am not 'making him a scapegoat', I pointed out the potentially massive impacts of this issue as a global whole and made a suggestion for how it could potentially be remedied. Which is more than you have done! All you have done, is made snarky comments, and been dismissive. But as has been already made very clear, Cryptic won't listen to me, and so I have better things to do than wasting my time arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin with someone who doesn't even grasp the fundamental impacts of the situation, and who is more interested in making snarky comments, and continuing an argument, than being constructive. If y'all want to continue discussing this amongst yourselves, go right ahead, but please don't direct any further comments to me about it. I really am not interested. I've made my suggestion for Cryptic at the top of pg 3, I've done my part, my conscience is clear, and I'm not prepared to waste my time conjecturing, debating, speculating, or otherwise discussing the topic with anyone.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
- It will normally not matter whether you call them "Buy 3 Lobi and maybe a goodie bonus" or "Test out your luck and gamble for the win box". What will matter is the relative worth of what you get guaranteed to what you are aiming for. So basically the authorities will want to know why players are buying these boxes. Of course that differs, and it isn't easy (things like trading cards have been mentioned).
- Depending on the thrust the whole issue gets and the direction it is going, it may even be better (again: German law) to call them "Test out your luck and gamble", because that wouldn't be a name that could fool players. Though again, it is unlikely that it will matter.
- Generally speaking, semantics of "gambling" vs "winning opportunities" may become important, but it is not a matter what Cryptic says or what we say. And it is a sliding scale, there are functional differences whether everything you get is of the same type (a playing card, a toy, ...) and those where it isn't.
- Whatever you think about politicians, they have no influence whatsoever here. And there is no "They" who want to get games shut down, because there is no political agenda as such behind it. This is also not about "new regulations" or suchlike but about the interpretation of already existing laws.
- The actual odds may be required to be published, and the actual odds may have an influence on a decision (i. e. when the worth of a "baseline win" is high enough), but just publishing the odds will not make the BPJM go away.
Gotta disagree here though. What price is "insane" is easily up to debate - even a short lived game may give you more time of entertainment than some concerts, sports events, movies, ... The issue would be more one of hidden costs, that you "have to" pay more to get a full game. STO should be pretty save in that regard though.
People already have a hard time accepting the consequences of their decisions if they were well informed. Yes, many should get more adult with this. But at the same time that cannot mean that everything is fair game. Especially again if it is accessible for people who just aren't adults yet (i. e. kids).
To be honest, your emphatic contributions do come across a bit as "screaming and raging". But to me less in the "he's loud and obnoxious" way, more in the "he's panicky and uncoordinated like a headless chicken" way. If we want to understand what may be going on (because this mostly is understanding, we won't indeed change anything), we would need clear analysis. Repitition of a mantra "this isn't gambling" won't help, we first need a clear understanding of how "gambling" is defined in this special case. Lockboxes in STO may easily not be gambling, but they may just as easily be. "We just need to rebrand it" - as has been said, no. Repeating it won't help. You don't want STO to shut down. Understood, neither do other players. You're looking for scapegoats like some politician or people not adult enough to face consequences of their actions, and you may just as well be correct that they are to blame for the situation, but the blame game doesn't solve problems.
Please don't understand this as a personal attack, it isn't meant as one. I emphasize with what you are trying to do, but I have the feeling you are shooting yourself an arrow into the knee here. Doing something for the sake of doing something is often enough the only course of action that can solve a problem. But more often it is not, and legal matters usually belong in this second group.
POSTIDENT however is not an ID, but a way to confirm your ID using the postal service (Deutsche Post).
Basically, if you expect some form of mail that requires verification (like the German equivalent of an R-Rated movie on Bluray, or maybe a credit card for you), the postal worker who will deliver the item or the post office where you collect the item will make the check, and the postal service will provide the neccessary paperwork to the person sending you the item, confirming that everything was in order.
It would probably still be awkard to do this for a F2P MMO, and it would present a hurdle to overcome not just for a kid, but also an adult player, but it might be preferrable to losing all those customers.
That is basically the most low tech / offline version. Apparently the post also has a video chat sstem.
Oh, and new German passports ("Personalausweis") can be equipped with a chip that could also be used online, but it's not a default feature yet I think, or rather, you have to say that you want that feature available. (It doesn't cost extra, but you will need a reader to use it for anything.)
you need to talk about seating and traits. also HP and shields, turn rates... is there a site that has all these where you can sort and see?
Lock box ships are ahead. Tact Dread-carrier is ONLY on lockbox. Lock box ships are better by per stats.
Look at Escorts @ L60
These are all the Zen store ships you can buy - next is the Fleet version - Fleet does not come with trait or consoles!
Advanced Escort - 41,333/45,466
Tactical Escort - 40,000/44K
Phantom Intel Escort - 38,000/41.8K
Mercury Class Pilot Escort - 38,800 <- No fleet version
Theseus Temporal Escort - 36,000/39.6K
Caitian Shikaris Escort - 40,000/44K
Lobi - gotten from lock boxes also only character 1 time ship
NX Escort Refit - 45,000
Several Lock Box ships - Yes not all LB ships have super high hulls.
Amarie-class Smuggler's Heavy Escort - 46,000
Jem'Hadar Recon Ship - 46,000
Jem'Hadar Strike Ship - 46,000
Still saying LB ships are not better? BS, look at ship stats. Sure not all LB ship is better than the previous LB ship but on average a LB ship is superior.
We can apply various skins to our ships... there is no reason to put actual ships in LBs but to generate money cause those are better ships. Again they wont make you god and one shot people or content, but on paper looking at stats, seating etc... no question LBS edge out regular ships.
However, by that point, they might as well remove keys and just sell Lobi in the cstore, directly.
> No lockbox ships are not better, they have slightly higher base hull & shields because they are already fleet grade when you get them. Fleet versions of c-store ships are at the same level of hull & shields. Traits and consoles are irrelevant and always will be no matter what ship your talking about. There is no "must have" trait or console that exists anywhere in the game, most of the time I utterly ignore traits & consoles because they have no impact whatsoever into how good the ship is. I might have 1 ship thats actually using the consoke that came with it. Boff seating for Lockbox/Lobi ships is the same as c-store ships (in terms of available number of Boff skills) with fewer options on spec seating (for example the Walker class has a Lt. & an Ensign spec seat, extremely limited, the Event Nandi has better spec seating with one seat).
>
> Lockbox/Lobi ships are exactly on par with fleet or fleet grade ships (ie Event ships, c-store ships like the Command Battlecruiser that are fleet grade out of the box, etc). Individual ship classes may be slightly ahead in one area or another, but they will be correspondingly lacking in another. At no point in the history of the game has any ship ever been just flatly better than all others, and they never will be.
>
>
Your first sentence doesn't really make sense and is really just wrong. If you look closely at stats Lockbox and lobi ships have higher shield and hull modifies then fleet ships. So they generally have slightly better stats overall then c-store and fleet ships. They generally also have more flexible boff layout with more universal stations.
Like this thing...are germans not going to have easter eggs this year, because it's "gambling?"
The quote was by me, not sophlogimo. And yes, you are correct that it will fail more often than not, with "often enough" I wanted to say that you will get gazillions of people telling you how they were in a situation where they actually had to do something (in one minute the car will explode situations) and it worked. Usually we never get told of the people who tried something and failed. So basically I was toning it down for the sake of the argument and agree with you.
As for the latter part: easter eggs don't have a random element in Germany, they're just chocolate with or without filling (but it will tell you on the packaging when you buy it). Unless you mean Kinder eggs, which despite their form aren't as much associated with easter as they may be elsewhere.
And, as has already been said, the "you don't get the toy you wanted" aspect has some crucial differences. First the chocolate as a guaranteed "win" plus the "unwanted toy" compare way more favorably than winning a Vonph or not. Second, the overall amount of money spent and "risked" is not comparable to what some players do in online games.
Your reductio ad absurdum doesn't work here. Some things would be absurd to consider gambling. Some things are clearly gambling. The exact point where it changes is blurry, but comparing standard online gaming lockboxes to either end doesn't help your case neither for nor against.