Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing lockboxes go the way of the dinosaurs even if it means some games have to go. MMOs were more enjoyable when they didn't have the lockbox setup. Especially ones that tie power creep to their lock box systems instead of actual progression game play that keeps a story moving forward.
The problem is that not enough people will put money into MMOs by other means like subscriptions and C-Store sales.
Would you rather have lock boxes in STO, or half as many story episodes and no Trek voice actors? Speaking for myself I'd choose the gamble boxes.
tru dat. And lets be honest STO died as a sub only game. Lets not kill it again.
Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing lockboxes go the way of the dinosaurs even if it means some games have to go. MMOs were more enjoyable when they didn't have the lockbox setup. Especially ones that tie power creep to their lock box systems instead of actual progression game play that keeps a story moving forward.
I fully agree. Lockboxes ARE gambling. Period. You're paying money for a chance of reward. Can you buy those items on the exchange? Yes, but you can also buy most gambling rewards in any form of gambling, that doesn't mean that you're not gambling any less. As such, with the way gaming has become, it's adding too much monitization. Most people have paid to buy the game. Some are still paying to play monthly, while some (like myself) paid heavier up front to not pay extra. The addition of lock boxes and the mentality behind them, more money is coming in from that than any other form of development. I would much rather just pay for the actual items i want, versus a fraction of a chance at them. But, no, they go where the money is better, so rather than innovating new means, they're letting all other wells dry up by over saturating the single deeper well. With how EA has been especially, more focus has been given to lock boxes and how much they're really destroying gaming, rather than adding to it. I undestand that, yes, games are a business and as such, enjoy making money. More so, when they're making more than they're spending but they've over reached. EA placed too much emphasis on it and tied too much into spending money, to the extent that it's actually interfering with game play (endgame especially).
Here in STO, it's no where near as bad, but in a similar regard, they're very clearly doing the same thing but with the META, rather than the direct gameplay or end game. Looking at all of the high end ship builds, you're hard pressed to find ships without C-store transactions all over it. Granted, a lot of those items can be bought through in game means but at a much heavier cost in time and grind investment. It's this weird kind of pay to win without actually being pay to win. So much so, that they made the right choice by going with the Lobi Crystal Consortium as their in-game presence for the C-store. Only a Ferengi would be so blantent and unrelenting in their search of profit. (Veiled political statements moderated out. - BMR)
Regardless of it all, the gaming industry is suffering due to the lock boxes and i would gladly see them go away. I would rather my money actually get me more game that advertisement for how to spend more money. When i DO spend money beyond the initial purchase, i would like it to be on things that build on the game as a whole. Much of what Cryptic does is just half baking things to randomly wedge into the open spaces, often abandoning them shortly after the first few patches. Very seldom do they add things that make the game better or more engaging. No... Just lockboxes and cheap money grabs, coupled with overpriced everything else.
Personally, i would love for more places to actually crack down on the lotto boxes for being gambling, because they are, and i don't care the aftermath of. If STO gets shutdown, oh well. Maybe they will strive for a better Star Trek MMO as a follow up. If they just have to remove the lotto boxes, i'm okay with that as well. The forums have a multitude of great ideas on just how to take our money. I would much rather be seeing creativity, customizations, and many other things in the cash shop then just "Here's a new lock box, leave us alone." It's not like money spent on lock boxes is going towards revamping and improving things like ships, interiors and bridges, officers, boffs, weapon customizations, the character creator, etc. It can be argued that some of it does go to story and VO but i really doubt it's nearly as much as they're raking in, and with how little we're getting these things, it's not really enough to make it worth the annoyance and paywall of the lottobox offerings.
I would Gladly pay $20 easily for seriously improving the Playable Borg. They need full body skins, that head only TRIBBLE is terrible and really shows how little effort they put into this game. They need better traits, way more parts and pieces for customizing the look, better borg weaponry, and way better Borg abilities. Nothing game breaking mind you but just a massive revamp to bring them, not only up to date, but into the future as well. They could even expand that premise to other races and playable species as well, having Cardassian packs, Klingon packs, I would love a Playable Jem'Hadar character and pack like that.
As a side note, a while back, didn't China put down the requirement to list the actual drop rates and does anyone know if Cryptic posted theirs?
They might have to make the keys account bound and bought via the website rather than in game.
Would allow minors to play and have access to the store while not exposing them to the gamble boxes.
Lotro's gamble boxes have keys as random drops and I think possibly also earnable with a lot of effort, so that would be another possible workaround. Kind of amazed that PWE hasnt gone this route as it would be a better hook for luring folk into the boxes than the current spamming of loot-tables and tweaking the drop rate to push a popular box (disco box drops far more often than the kethi one)
PoE's boxes are opened at purchase rather than loot drops and they clearly state the value is never less than the asking price, debatable for stuff like the fireworks but for cosmetics and stash tabs its pretty accurate. In comparison keys are a slightly more fluid price due to the exchange and the minor prizes are certainly not worth the same in a lot of cases.
Because the boxes have been in sto for so long now they can't as easily remove keys from the game.
I'd love for them to remove the padding from the boxes, be upfront and publish the %'s, have the boxes themselves on a fixed drop rate and just put the cosmetics into the boxes as an item not a chance of a chance via the weapon crates.
Only downside for me with moving keys out the store and web based would be I'd have nothing to spend stipend on until a t6 kar'fi arrives.
The real issue, is that there is no Universally agreed upon Age Approval system on the internet. There's nothing stopping a kid swiping a credit card from their parent, or getting the parent to sign up on their behalf. The Nanny-State Compliance Mongers, are saying that one of their areas for concern is 'the kids' and 'those who may be vulnerable to addictive behaviours' and they can leverage that, against the lack of a Universally Agreed System. A company could just say they'll make their game credit card subscription only. But that doesn't stop a kid siping the card, or getting the parent to sign up for them. Nor does it take into account adults who don't have credit cards. Then there's the issue of the fact that the game went F2P (I would guess, due to not enough subscriptions) People have been playing the game for free for the better part of a decade: I question how many of those players, would continue to play, if a subscription was the only way to play. The issue goes way beyond 'LockBoxes are gambling!' faux-outrage in terms of its implications on the future of the game. I just hope cooler heads prevail and shut this nonsense down, before it kills, not just our game, but many games which many people enjoy...
In Germany, we actually have a mechanism for age approval, like POSTIDENT. Banks also seem to use a video-chat-based system these days (though I never tried that myself.) Setting up different identification systems according to different countries laws will cost money and time, but it might be worth it if the alternative is losing the entire market.
Of course, it would be preferable if the EU would agree on something so that whatever will be required works the same way for all member countries.
Of course there is no perfect safety, but adding a hurdle in the first place will offer some protection.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing lockboxes go the way of the dinosaurs even if it means some games have to go. MMOs were more enjoyable when they didn't have the lockbox setup. Especially ones that tie power creep to their lock box systems instead of actual progression game play that keeps a story moving forward.
The problem is that not enough people will put money into MMOs by other means like subscriptions and C-Store sales.
Would you rather have lock boxes in STO, or half as many story episodes and no Trek voice actors? Speaking for myself I'd choose the gamble boxes.
^^^^ This...
And all the time there are people (I could name names, but I won't) who are clearly heavy players, commenting on the FB page about how they are have never spent a penny of real money in-game and grind everything, that, is proof of why the game needs the lockboxes to bring in additional revinue...
Being able to grind so much, is fantastic, and I read that this is one of the most generous MMOs in that regard. But, there also comes a time when someone has to put their hand in their pocket, and pony up some cash to help keep the lights on. Lockboxes facilitate that...
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
To even think that the pitiful amount of lobi could be considered to be the main prize is laughable.
Moreso when its a randomised amount per box. Not to mention the prices in the lobi store equate to several hundred keys worth of boxes.
There has to be a revenue stream for the game but until they come up with a better option than gamble boxes gamers are stuck with the choice of ignoring them or blowing cash on disappointment.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,543Community Moderator
Which was instigated by the fact that lootboxes were integrated into the progression system in Star Wars: Battlefront 2.
Very much this. EA is to blame. Valve and Cryptic actually are doing it right. Lockbox gear is NOT required to progress. Its nice to have, but not manditory. Also there are alternate means to acquire Lockbox shiny than shelling out your own money.
If STO made, say, the next tier of ships extremely scarce (like, you can only get one for not 3000, but 30,000 zen), that could actually work. Many people would want such ships, and after an adjustment period, we'd just grind or pay for them, wouldn't we.
So... you want people to pay the equivelent of a Lifer Sub... for basically one ship that may not even be an account unlock? No. People would not grind for it. $300 for one ship in the C-Store is a ridiculous price. If anything... it would be a deterant. STO is a casual game. Not frickin' EVE.
And also... Star Citizen hasn't even been officially released! Its been in... what... Beta for HOW LONG?
They might have to make the keys account bound and bought via the website rather than in game.
Would allow minors to play and have access to the store while not exposing them to the gamble boxes.
Lotro's gamble boxes have keys as random drops and I think possibly also earnable with a lot of effort, so that would be another possible workaround. Kind of amazed that PWE hasnt gone this route as it would be a better hook for luring folk into the boxes than the current spamming of loot-tables and tweaking the drop rate to push a popular box (disco box drops far more often than the kethi one)
PoE's boxes are opened at purchase rather than loot drops and they clearly state the value is never less than the asking price, debatable for stuff like the fireworks but for cosmetics and stash tabs its pretty accurate. In comparison keys are a slightly more fluid price due to the exchange and the minor prizes are certainly not worth the same in a lot of cases.
Because the boxes have been in sto for so long now they can't as easily remove keys from the game.
I'd love for them to remove the padding from the boxes, be upfront and publish the %'s, have the boxes themselves on a fixed drop rate and just put the cosmetics into the boxes as an item not a chance of a chance via the weapon crates.
Only downside for me with moving keys out the store and web based would be I'd have nothing to spend stipend on until a t6 kar'fi arrives.
The real issue, is that there is no Universally agreed upon Age Approval system on the internet. There's nothing stopping a kid swiping a credit card from their parent, or getting the parent to sign up on their behalf. The Nanny-State Compliance Mongers, are saying that one of their areas for concern is 'the kids' and 'those who may be vulnerable to addictive behaviours' and they can leverage that, against the lack of a Universally Agreed System. A company could just say they'll make their game credit card subscription only. But that doesn't stop a kid siping the card, or getting the parent to sign up for them. Nor does it take into account adults who don't have credit cards. Then there's the issue of the fact that the game went F2P (I would guess, due to not enough subscriptions) People have been playing the game for free for the better part of a decade: I question how many of those players, would continue to play, if a subscription was the only way to play. The issue goes way beyond 'LockBoxes are gambling!' faux-outrage in terms of its implications on the future of the game. I just hope cooler heads prevail and shut this nonsense down, before it kills, not just our game, but many games which many people enjoy...
In Germany, we actually have a mechanism for age approval, like POSTIDENT. Banks also seem to use a video-chat-based system these days (though I never tried that myself.) Setting up different identification systems according to different countries laws will cost money and time, but it might be worth it if the alternative is losing the entire market.
Of course, it would be preferable if the EU would agree on something so that whatever will be required works the same way for all member countries.
Of course there is no perfect safety, but adding a hurdle in the first place will offer some protection.
That sounds good, I didn't know that Is that some kind of government-issued ID card, which is recognized in all shops etc, as a valid ID? As you say, doing it online, will cost time and money. It's by no means impossible, it'll just take time and money. It won't necessarily help in this specific instance, but it will definitely help in the future/long term
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Lockboxes belong in this game, per the current state of video games. It's a free to play MMO. The "good ole days" meant $15 or more per month, and I'm not doing that again. I have Netflix to pay for... I mean kids to feed. Cryptic makes its money from the people who can afford it, and the rest of us play for free and can still grind for the good stuff. It's really a win-win, for as long as it will last. Where lootcrates don't belong are full-price single player games, like Shadow of War.
That **** in Hawaii that started this nonsense, potentially has a lot to answer for
Which was instigated by the fact that lootboxes were integrated into the progression system in Star Wars: Battlefront 2.
I know that that's what instigated it. It doesn't matter who/how/what/why the whole bruhaha came into being, I'm more concerned about how it's going to affect the game which we all love (and many other games, which countless other people love).
This is why I posted what I did about my Lobi Box proposal the last time this conversation came up: Suggesting ways in which devs might consider re-branding and re-vamping things, is more important than pointing the finger of blame, and saying 'he started it!' We know 'who started it', what we need to do as a community, is suggest ways the devs can consider 'where to go from here' so if the EU does come down as it being Gambling, and impose restrictions which would affect all of us (there is a massive playerbase in Germany) there could still be options to keep the lights on and the game enjoyable for all
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,543Community Moderator
And yet, people pay that kind of money. It is obviously a phenomenon that can finance a game.
STO is far more casual. This isn't WoW. And as pointed out, SC isn't even FINISHED yet, and hasn't been for YEARS. As much as I would enjoy even a hint of something Wing Commander being available again... that kind of financing will not work for STO. Again as I pointed out, this isn't EVE. People are not throwing Cryptic money to buy single ships that can be perma destroyed.
Just because that kind of thing worked for EVE or SC doesn't mean it will work for everything.
The closest you'll get to what you propose is what we already have. Spamming lockbox keys on boxes. And some people will do that. But not a lump sum on the C-Store. Even a lifer would have to live in the game to grind out $300 with the DL exchange. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you burn out players to the point they can't continue.
Before my lifer sub, I was F2P and I ground out the Delta and Temporal packs. I've burned out before. So I know what I'm talking about. Even with my lifer, I still rely on the DL exchange. The extra zen takes some of the load off the grind yes. But it only goes so far.
To even think that the pitiful amount of lobi could be considered to be the main prize is laughable.
Moreso when its a randomised amount per box. Not to mention the prices in the lobi store equate to several hundred keys worth of boxes.
There has to be a revenue stream for the game but until they come up with a better option than gamble boxes gamers are stuck with the choice of ignoring them or blowing cash on disappointment.
Why is it laughable? It's a consistent output: Even randomized, it is at least 3 crystals. Crystals which can be saved for fancy stuff in-game. Don't be dismissive just because you don't consider it valuable. I don't collect Lobi, but I can still appreciate it's value as an in-game commodity (Racial stereotyping moderated out. - BMR) and the importance which its acquisition (cash sales of Zen) has on the survivability of the game. Do you want the game to close?
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My continuous sole problem with STO's Lock Boxes & Promotional Packs, gambling, is that Cryptic doesn't publish the official statistics/percentages for accountability & transparency.
Without knowing the odds it is gambling by definition ... regardless if you do a sample size on Tribble server which doesn't mean the odds are the same as Holodeck & it doesn't matter if you are guaranteed something because other things are not guaranteed & no one but Cryptic, CBS, & PWE can state with certainty what those odds are for x, y, &/or z.
They don't want an informed consumer, because they know having to publish their current odds would hinder sales therefore they would increase the odds if they had to publish to compensate.
More & more of the gaming industry is morphing into this concept, some games are being design primarily around the gambling, just because there is currently a lack of accountability. I think more & more countries will adapt regulations for such eventually but it will take time, possibly lawsuits, & even possibly the gamers/consumers taking a stand.
Remember it isn't "random" at all it is coding with our best technological attempt at pseudo-randomness & it being coded means it is controlled.
And they pay nevertheless. 8000 dollars for a frigate that isn't even available yet. I am sure you see the implication: Who wants to spend money to get a ship will spend money to get a ship.
In other words: Whales will be whales.
There are a LOT of unsatisfied contributors to SC. And there is one thing that you failed to consider. All the ships in the C-Store are ACCOUNT UNLOCKS. SINGLE PURCHASE.
Whales will be whales yes. But in order to sustain a game, you need a sustainable source of income. Single purchases are spikes. Lockbox keys are the stream.
Of course they are. What else are lockbox ships?
Character unlock ships that don't get perma-killed, and are avaialable to even someone like me with enough ECs.
Which was instigated by the fact that lootboxes were integrated into the progression system in Star Wars: Battlefront 2.
Very much this. EA is to blame. Valve and Cryptic actually are doing it right. Lockbox gear is NOT required to progress. Its nice to have, but not manditory. Also there are alternate means to acquire Lockbox shiny than shelling out your own money.
You mean the character unlocks? Those you can get without spending any money. It just takes a long time.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,543Community Moderator
Yea... emphesis on LOOOOOOOOOONG. I don't know how its been changed since Disney dropped the hammer on EA, but before that it was basically blackmail length to push people to spend money to get it sooner.
I know that that's what instigated it. It doesn't matter who/how/what/why the whole bruhaha came into being, I'm more concerned about how it's going to affect the game which we all love (and many other games, which countless other people love).
It's fine that you are concerned about how the potential outcome from the lootbox fallout is going to affect STO.
But you have to understand that the way EA implemented lootboxes in Star Wars: Battlefront 2 was extremely predatory in nature. Not only was it a $60 game upon release, but in order to progress in the you had to either grind for a very long or pay money to open loot boxes to get Star Cards and whatever other currency (if any) that were needed to improve your character in the game. This is extremely predatory because this is a pay to win system since SWBF2 is primarily a PvP game. You can either grind and continuously loose for 40 to 60 hours to get up to par with all the other players (who would themselves have likely improved their characters as well), or you can spend money to quickly level the playing. Well at least close the gap more quickly depending on how much money you want to throw at the game.
That's fine for adults with jobs as long as they can control their spending habits. But SWBF2 is rated PEGI 12 (12 years and older in the EU) and ESRB Teen (13 years and older in the US). They do not work full time and cannot hope to compete against players who can simply pay to win. You can say, "Son (or daughter), just suck it up for 40 or 60 game hours, by the end of that time you will just be as good as the players you were competing against.... 40 or 60 game hours ago".
Christopher Lee, the Democratic politician of Hawaii, is simply attempting to prevent teenagers from being addicted to gambling as a result of lootboxes in games. EA brought it to the forefront as a result of the extremely predatory nature in SWBF2. He wants to prevent people from becoming addicted to games like "Kensgold" in the following Kotaku article where between the age of 16 and 19 he spent about $13,500 on micro-transactions. Though "Kensgold" stated that he first started spending money on micro-transactions at the age of 13.
Consider the repercussions of spending $13.5k between the age of 16 and 19. Since "Kensgold" used bank statements to validate he spent that much money, it likely meant that he earned most of it by working part-time. I am pretty sure there are a lot of teenagers who have not earned that much money by working to fuel their lootbox addiction. So by what other means could teenagers get that much money to fuel a potential lootbox addiction....???
To even think that the pitiful amount of lobi could be considered to be the main prize is laughable.
Moreso when its a randomised amount per box. Not to mention the prices in the lobi store equate to several hundred keys worth of boxes.
There has to be a revenue stream for the game but until they come up with a better option than gamble boxes gamers are stuck with the choice of ignoring them or blowing cash on disappointment.
Why is it laughable? It's a consistent output: Even randomized, it is at least 3 crystals. Crystals which can be saved for fancy stuff in-game. Don't be dismissive just because you don't consider it valuable. I don't collect Lobi, but I can still appreciate it's value as an in-game commodity (Racial stereotyping moderated out. - BMR) and the importance which its acquisition (cash sales of Zen) has on the survivability of the game. Do you want the game to close?
Nevertheless, however cleverly padded with half-way decent consolation prizes, we need a moment of honesty here, and realize lock boxes are meant for players to gamble with, so they can get the big ship. Everything else is fluff. Sometimes nice fluff, granted, but nevertheless introduced for no other reason than to obfuscate the authorities on the fact that lock boxes are gambling (and to keep the player gambling with the next box, of course, as he'd likely stop opening more if he had nothing to show for).
Do I mind that they're gambling boxes? Not really. In fact, they're good for the survival of the game. But I don't mind if the gambling authorities finally call a spade a spade.
I know that that's what instigated it. It doesn't matter who/how/what/why the whole bruhaha came into being, I'm more concerned about how it's going to affect the game which we all love (and many other games, which countless other people love).
It's fine that you are concerned about how the potential outcome from the lootbox fallout is going to affect STO.
But you have to understand that the way EA implemented lootboxes in Star Wars: Battlefront 2 was extremely predatory in nature. Not only was it a $60 game upon release, but in order to progress in the you had to either grind for a very long or pay money to open loot boxes to get Star Cards and whatever other currency (if any) that were needed to improve your character in the game. This is extremely predatory because this is a pay to win system since SWBF2 is primarily a PvP game. You can either grind and continuously loose for 40 to 60 hours to get up to par with all the other players (who would themselves have likely improved their characters as well), or you can spend money to quickly level the playing. Well at least close the gap more quickly depending on how much money you want to throw at the game.
That's fine for adults with jobs as long as they can control their spending habits. But SWBF2 is rated PEGI 12 (12 years and older in the EU) and ESRB Teen (13 years and older in the US). They do not work full time and cannot hope to compete against players who can simply pay to win. You can say, "Son (or daughter), just suck it up for 40 or 60 game hours, by the end of that time you will just be as good as the players you were competing against.... 40 or 60 game hours ago".
Christopher Lee, the Democratic politician of Hawaii, is simply attempting to prevent teenagers from being addicted to gambling as a result of lootboxes in games. EA brought it to the forefront as a result of the extremely predatory nature in SWBF2. He wants to prevent people from becoming addicted to games like "Kensgold" in the following Kotaku article where between the age of 16 and 19 he spent about $13,500 on micro-transactions. Though "Kensgold" stated that he first started spending money on micro-transactions at the age of 13.
Consider the repercussions of spending $13.5k between the age of 16 and 19. Since "Kensgold" used bank statements to validate he spent that much money, it likely meant that he earned most of it by working part-time. I am pretty sure there are a lot of teenagers who have not earned that much money by working to fuel their lootbox addiction. So by what other means could teenagers get that much money to fuel a potential lootbox addiction....???
It's the internet, not a TRIBBLE kindergarten! I'm sorry that these kids are incapable of delaying gratification, and that their parents don't give them the attention they need, or that DaboMan892 can't stop himself clicking, but don't try and gaslight me, that there's any need to impugn on everyone else's entertainment! Which is exactly what legislation on this matter, is very likely going to do.
Just because Benefits Dave down the road is an alcoholic, is no reason why the whole town has to go dry, just so he can't fell off the wagon and drink something!
Why are you defending this?? I repeat my question: Do you want this game to close?
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
To even think that the pitiful amount of lobi could be considered to be the main prize is laughable.
Moreso when its a randomised amount per box. Not to mention the prices in the lobi store equate to several hundred keys worth of boxes.
There has to be a revenue stream for the game but until they come up with a better option than gamble boxes gamers are stuck with the choice of ignoring them or blowing cash on disappointment.
Why is it laughable? It's a consistent output: Even randomized, it is at least 3 crystals. Crystals which can be saved for fancy stuff in-game. Don't be dismissive just because you don't consider it valuable. I don't collect Lobi, but I can still appreciate it's value as an in-game commodity (I'm Jewish: Its what we know ) and the importance which its acquisition (cash sales of Zen) has on the survivability of the game. Do you want the game to close?
Nevertheless, however cleverly padded with half-way decent consolation prizes, we need a moment of honesty here, and realize lock boxes are meant for players to gamble with, so they can get the big ship. Everything else is fluff. Sometimes nice fluff, granted, but nevertheless introduced for no other reason than to obfuscate the authorities on the fact that lock boxes are gambling (and to keep the player gambling with the next box, of course, as he'd likely stop opening more if he had nothing to show for).
Do I mind that they're gambling boxes? Not really. In fact, they're good for the survival of the game. But I don't mind if the gambling authorities finally call a spade a spade.
But the point is, the spade, is not the spade it's being made out to be... Especially with STO LockBoxes, there is no actual gambling. If we're going to be honest (and accurate), then English isn't sufficient for this, so I'm going to drop into French (a language I can't even speak) for a moment. What LockBoxes offer, in regards obtaining TheBigShip, is opportunité, las occasion, la chance. It is not lepari, la entreprise risquée, le jeux d'argen... Yes, it is certainly possible to win TheBigShip, but the odds of doing so, are against it. Anyone who's played the game long enough knows that the chances of doing so are slim (queue Someone to tell us all how because he won all his ships everyone else can win all their ships too...) The other week, someone was complaining that he opened 200 odd boxes in the hopes of getting the Crossfield Class. It was pointed out to him, that had he simply sold those keys on the exchange, he would have had enough EC to just buy one, and still have pocket-change And this was someone who professed to know better (well, obviously they didn't know better, or they wouldn't've done it )
This is why when all this first cropped up, I suggested the re-branding to Lobi Boxes, and with definite fixed rewards, in addition to las occasion to win SomethingBig as well (I'll have to do a search to copy the post back) The distinction may be subtle, but it is a very real one. 125 Zen (aka Master Key) = 3 Lobi Crystals. That's straight up currency conversion, and not a gamble. Lobi can be used for stuff in-game, so it has value as a commodity. That is what Cryptic needs to focus on and present, if they want to keep doing what they're doing. Now, if they were to stop the flyaway of 'DaboMan892@QuarksPleasurePlanet has won a SUPERAWESOME PRIZE', then they couldn't even be accused of encouraging people to take la chance There aould simply be The Offer: Win cool prizes when you open a Lobi Box... It might be a ShipOfTheWeek! (it might just be a dilithium claim; Which still has value )
On another note, sooo good to see you posting again I'd missed your hat
*ExtraForTheEditMonster
Post edited by silverlobes#2676 on
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Do understand this is just politicians blowing hot air, it's what they do best. Nothing of any business importance is going to come out of it in any country large enough for Big Entertainment to care.
Do understand that we are NOT talking about politicians in Germany here, but mid-level government officials (who are hired for life here) who just put their mind to a problem that could be seen as covered by existing laws. And it is fully in their legal authority to make such a decision, and enforce it.
Quoted for truth. As long as we're talking Germany, if this action would be taken politicians would do something else than "blowing hot air" to prevent it by changing the law. But many countries work very different from the US here in that the government has way less power in many details because it is delegated to independent institutions which cannot easily be closed down or whose heads cannot be switched out at a whim.
Also, simple rebranding wouldn't work in Germany. Sure, the guaranteed price of 3 lobi may make it considered "buying something with a cereal box goodie maybe inside", but that wouldn't be dependent on the name given to it, rather on the considered relative value, odds and similar. There are odds that such a loophole would hold up as long as nobody wants to unsettle stuff, and legally sound definitions will be difficult to make up, but if the impression of the respective bureaucrats would be that people bought them not for the lobi but for the other stuff, it may get difficult. It will be no easy thing either way (after all, trading cards also guarantee you a certain payout, though it may be of vastly different value).
I am no legal expert, but I also doubt that the fact that you can "grind it out" (by the way: technically not guaranteed if people stopped buying dil) in and of itself would help. But there are quite a few mitigating factors here, so even if such a ban would take place, it is not at all assured that STO would be affected.
It's the internet, not a **** kindergarten! I'm sorry that these kids are incapable of delaying gratification, and that their parents don't give them the attention they need, or that DaboMan892 can't stop himself clicking, but don't try and gaslight me, that there's any need to impugn on everyone else's entertainment! Which is exactly what legislation on this matter, is very likely going to do.
Just because Benefits Dave down the road is an alcoholic, is no reason why the whole town has to go dry, just so he can't fell off the wagon and drink something!
Why are you defending this?? I repeat my question: Do you want this game to close?
Nope, I don't want to. But your personal opinion will not change anything here. And children are impulsive, and parents cannot always watch everything they do, so certain protections will have to be in place. Just because Dave is an alcoholic, alcohol won't be disallowed (though especially alcohol is an oddity in drug terms, but I digress), but it will be checked that e. g. kids cannot legally buy it and people selling to them may get in trouble. And such a check may be needed here, too, to satisfy the law.
And publishing the odds may be required additionally, but will not satisfy the "gambling yes or no?" issue. Nor will "just buying some gambling licence", because getting one would, amongst other things, require you to ascertain that no minors will take part.
In the end this is a German thing though. But Germany may be one of the bigger markets, so it may mean a major slump, if Germans were blocked. Or there may be a solution.
It should be mentioned though that this whole idea is more targeted at games for mobile phones, so it won't affect MMOs as much.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Yea... emphesis on LOOOOOOOOOONG. I don't know how its been changed since Disney dropped the hammer on EA, but before that it was basically blackmail length to push people to spend money to get it sooner.
The way I understand it that was most notable for two specific characters. the rest were considerably easier to unlock.
Do understand this is just politicians blowing hot air, it's what they do best. Nothing of any business importance is going to come out of it in any country large enough for Big Entertainment to care.
Do understand that we are NOT talking about politicians in Germany here, but mid-level government officials (who are hired for life here) who just put their mind to a problem that could be seen as covered by existing laws. And it is fully in their legal authority to make such a decision, and enforce it.
Quoted for truth. As long as we're talking Germany, if this action would be taken politicians would do something else than "blowing hot air" to prevent it by changing the law. But many countries work very different from the US here in that the government has way less power in many details because it is delegated to independent institutions which cannot easily be closed down or whose heads cannot be switched out at a whim.
Also, simple rebranding wouldn't work in Germany. Sure, the guaranteed price of 3 lobi may make it considered "buying something with a cereal box goodie maybe inside", but that wouldn't be dependent on the name given to it, rather on the considered relative value, odds and similar. There are odds that such a loophole would hold up as long as nobody wants to unsettle stuff, and legally sound definitions will be difficult to make up, but if the impression of the respective bureaucrats would be that people bought them not for the lobi but for the other stuff, it may get difficult. It will be no easy thing either way (after all, trading cards also guarantee you a certain payout, though it may be of vastly different value).
I am no legal expert, but I also doubt that the fact that you can "grind it out" (by the way: technically not guaranteed if people stopped buying dil) in and of itself would help. But there are quite a few mitigating factors here, so even if such a ban would take place, it is not at all assured that STO would be affected.
It's the internet, not a **** kindergarten! I'm sorry that these kids are incapable of delaying gratification, and that their parents don't give them the attention they need, or that DaboMan892 can't stop himself clicking, but don't try and gaslight me, that there's any need to impugn on everyone else's entertainment! Which is exactly what legislation on this matter, is very likely going to do.
Just because Benefits Dave down the road is an alcoholic, is no reason why the whole town has to go dry, just so he can't fell off the wagon and drink something!
Why are you defending this?? I repeat my question: Do you want this game to close?
Nope, I don't want to. But your personal opinion will not change anything here. And children are impulsive, and parents cannot always watch everything they do, so certain protections will have to be in place. Just because Dave is an alcoholic, alcohol won't be disallowed (though especially alcohol is an oddity in drug terms, but I digress), but it will be checked that e. g. kids cannot legally buy it and people selling to them may get in trouble. And such a check may be needed here, too, to satisfy the law.
And publishing the odds may be required additionally, but will not satisfy the "gambling yes or no?" issue. Nor will "just buying some gambling licence", because getting one would, amongst other things, require you to ascertain that no minors will take part.
In the end this is a German thing though. But Germany may be one of the bigger markets, so it may mean a major slump, if Germans were blocked. Or there may be a solution.
It should be mentioned though that this whole idea is more targeted at games for mobile phones, so it won't affect MMOs as much.
Agreed, my personal opinion likely won't change anything. But you know what? I'd rather have made the suggestions I made about re-branding (and will re-post for ease of reference) which might be of use to the devs/Cryptic, rather than just arguing semantics and hypotheticals about how what game mechanic effects affect what behavioural group etc, like everyone else is doing, and then who will then scream blue murder and throw hissy-fits when the game gets shut down due to lack of profit...
Age verification (such as credit card subscription) won't work in relation to this game, for the reasons previously mentioned: 1) A child could still obtain access, either with, or without their parent's permission 2) It wouldn't stop an adult with gambling compulsions from signing up 3) P2P format clearly didn't work for STO, so they went F2P: If it didn't work then, it won't work now. The people who grind everything for free, won't be willing to pay for something they have always had free access to. If they can't be bothered to pay cash-money for the Shinies they actually want, there's no chance of them paying a subscription fee 4) Not all adults have credit cards. That's four very solid reasons why age verification won't work here for this.
I completely agree, age verificarion could probably be introduced to work for other things, but not for this game. That's why it would have to be/become compliant to any 'no gambling' statutes... Age verification isn't an option. It won't work, so something else (compliance) has to be considered instead. The more ideas we can generate, then the more options Cryptic have to potentially consider and choose from, if/when the time comes.
Cryptic have been good enough to create this sandbox which we're playing in. I'd rather help them keep it open, in however limited way, that I can, rather than do nothing. Because sitting back and arguing semantics, agreeing with the people who want to do this is what will get this, and many other games, shut down in some markets. Germany has a huge STO contingent, that's obvious from the amount of flyaways in German, and players I see in-game, whose bio information is in German. Losing out on a market like that (due to nanny-state bureaucracy) will hit Cryptic's pocket. Hard. And if I can do something to try and do something which might give them an idea how to prevent that happening, then that's what I'd rather do. Make no mistake, this is a definite Win:Lose scenario. (With 'win' most likely being making changes to be in compliance to EU findings, rather than the case simply being dismissed and people forgetting about it) I
Am
Not
Willing
to allow my primary form of entertainment, to be shutdown thanks to some BigBrother-Knows-Best do-gooder in Hawaii, without at least trying to suggest ways Cryptic could modify the game to be in compliance with such potential changes.
If kael never passes on my suggestions, or if Cryptic choose not to use them, and go another way, then fine. But I'll at least be able to tell myself that I Did My Part to help. That I Tried to stop it from happening, rather than just passively sitting back, letting it happen, and then throwing some outraged tantrum afterwards, demanding to know why the game doesn't load anymore, and the lights have been turned off...
/RantOver #NotDirectedAtYouPersonally
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Comments
tru dat. And lets be honest STO died as a sub only game. Lets not kill it again.
I fully agree. Lockboxes ARE gambling. Period. You're paying money for a chance of reward. Can you buy those items on the exchange? Yes, but you can also buy most gambling rewards in any form of gambling, that doesn't mean that you're not gambling any less. As such, with the way gaming has become, it's adding too much monitization. Most people have paid to buy the game. Some are still paying to play monthly, while some (like myself) paid heavier up front to not pay extra. The addition of lock boxes and the mentality behind them, more money is coming in from that than any other form of development. I would much rather just pay for the actual items i want, versus a fraction of a chance at them. But, no, they go where the money is better, so rather than innovating new means, they're letting all other wells dry up by over saturating the single deeper well. With how EA has been especially, more focus has been given to lock boxes and how much they're really destroying gaming, rather than adding to it. I undestand that, yes, games are a business and as such, enjoy making money. More so, when they're making more than they're spending but they've over reached. EA placed too much emphasis on it and tied too much into spending money, to the extent that it's actually interfering with game play (endgame especially).
Here in STO, it's no where near as bad, but in a similar regard, they're very clearly doing the same thing but with the META, rather than the direct gameplay or end game. Looking at all of the high end ship builds, you're hard pressed to find ships without C-store transactions all over it. Granted, a lot of those items can be bought through in game means but at a much heavier cost in time and grind investment. It's this weird kind of pay to win without actually being pay to win. So much so, that they made the right choice by going with the Lobi Crystal Consortium as their in-game presence for the C-store. Only a Ferengi would be so blantent and unrelenting in their search of profit. (Veiled political statements moderated out. - BMR)
Regardless of it all, the gaming industry is suffering due to the lock boxes and i would gladly see them go away. I would rather my money actually get me more game that advertisement for how to spend more money. When i DO spend money beyond the initial purchase, i would like it to be on things that build on the game as a whole. Much of what Cryptic does is just half baking things to randomly wedge into the open spaces, often abandoning them shortly after the first few patches. Very seldom do they add things that make the game better or more engaging. No... Just lockboxes and cheap money grabs, coupled with overpriced everything else.
Personally, i would love for more places to actually crack down on the lotto boxes for being gambling, because they are, and i don't care the aftermath of. If STO gets shutdown, oh well. Maybe they will strive for a better Star Trek MMO as a follow up. If they just have to remove the lotto boxes, i'm okay with that as well. The forums have a multitude of great ideas on just how to take our money. I would much rather be seeing creativity, customizations, and many other things in the cash shop then just "Here's a new lock box, leave us alone." It's not like money spent on lock boxes is going towards revamping and improving things like ships, interiors and bridges, officers, boffs, weapon customizations, the character creator, etc. It can be argued that some of it does go to story and VO but i really doubt it's nearly as much as they're raking in, and with how little we're getting these things, it's not really enough to make it worth the annoyance and paywall of the lottobox offerings.
I would Gladly pay $20 easily for seriously improving the Playable Borg. They need full body skins, that head only TRIBBLE is terrible and really shows how little effort they put into this game. They need better traits, way more parts and pieces for customizing the look, better borg weaponry, and way better Borg abilities. Nothing game breaking mind you but just a massive revamp to bring them, not only up to date, but into the future as well. They could even expand that premise to other races and playable species as well, having Cardassian packs, Klingon packs, I would love a Playable Jem'Hadar character and pack like that.
As a side note, a while back, didn't China put down the requirement to list the actual drop rates and does anyone know if Cryptic posted theirs?
In Germany, we actually have a mechanism for age approval, like POSTIDENT. Banks also seem to use a video-chat-based system these days (though I never tried that myself.) Setting up different identification systems according to different countries laws will cost money and time, but it might be worth it if the alternative is losing the entire market.
Of course, it would be preferable if the EU would agree on something so that whatever will be required works the same way for all member countries.
Of course there is no perfect safety, but adding a hurdle in the first place will offer some protection.
Which was instigated by the fact that lootboxes were integrated into the progression system in Star Wars: Battlefront 2.
^^^^ This...
And all the time there are people (I could name names, but I won't) who are clearly heavy players, commenting on the FB page about how they are have never spent a penny of real money in-game and grind everything, that, is proof of why the game needs the lockboxes to bring in additional revinue...
Being able to grind so much, is fantastic, and I read that this is one of the most generous MMOs in that regard. But, there also comes a time when someone has to put their hand in their pocket, and pony up some cash to help keep the lights on. Lockboxes facilitate that...
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Moreso when its a randomised amount per box. Not to mention the prices in the lobi store equate to several hundred keys worth of boxes.
There has to be a revenue stream for the game but until they come up with a better option than gamble boxes gamers are stuck with the choice of ignoring them or blowing cash on disappointment.
Very much this. EA is to blame. Valve and Cryptic actually are doing it right. Lockbox gear is NOT required to progress. Its nice to have, but not manditory. Also there are alternate means to acquire Lockbox shiny than shelling out your own money.
So... you want people to pay the equivelent of a Lifer Sub... for basically one ship that may not even be an account unlock? No. People would not grind for it. $300 for one ship in the C-Store is a ridiculous price. If anything... it would be a deterant. STO is a casual game. Not frickin' EVE.
And also... Star Citizen hasn't even been officially released! Its been in... what... Beta for HOW LONG?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
This is why I posted what I did about my Lobi Box proposal the last time this conversation came up: Suggesting ways in which devs might consider re-branding and re-vamping things, is more important than pointing the finger of blame, and saying 'he started it!' We know 'who started it', what we need to do as a community, is suggest ways the devs can consider 'where to go from here' so if the EU does come down as it being Gambling, and impose restrictions which would affect all of us (there is a massive playerbase in Germany) there could still be options to keep the lights on and the game enjoyable for all
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
STO is far more casual. This isn't WoW. And as pointed out, SC isn't even FINISHED yet, and hasn't been for YEARS. As much as I would enjoy even a hint of something Wing Commander being available again... that kind of financing will not work for STO. Again as I pointed out, this isn't EVE. People are not throwing Cryptic money to buy single ships that can be perma destroyed.
Just because that kind of thing worked for EVE or SC doesn't mean it will work for everything.
The closest you'll get to what you propose is what we already have. Spamming lockbox keys on boxes. And some people will do that. But not a lump sum on the C-Store. Even a lifer would have to live in the game to grind out $300 with the DL exchange. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you burn out players to the point they can't continue.
Before my lifer sub, I was F2P and I ground out the Delta and Temporal packs. I've burned out before. So I know what I'm talking about. Even with my lifer, I still rely on the DL exchange. The extra zen takes some of the load off the grind yes. But it only goes so far.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Without knowing the odds it is gambling by definition ... regardless if you do a sample size on Tribble server which doesn't mean the odds are the same as Holodeck & it doesn't matter if you are guaranteed something because other things are not guaranteed & no one but Cryptic, CBS, & PWE can state with certainty what those odds are for x, y, &/or z.
They don't want an informed consumer, because they know having to publish their current odds would hinder sales therefore they would increase the odds if they had to publish to compensate.
More & more of the gaming industry is morphing into this concept, some games are being design primarily around the gambling, just because there is currently a lack of accountability. I think more & more countries will adapt regulations for such eventually but it will take time, possibly lawsuits, & even possibly the gamers/consumers taking a stand.
Remember it isn't "random" at all it is coding with our best technological attempt at pseudo-randomness & it being coded means it is controlled.
There are a LOT of unsatisfied contributors to SC. And there is one thing that you failed to consider. All the ships in the C-Store are ACCOUNT UNLOCKS. SINGLE PURCHASE.
Whales will be whales yes. But in order to sustain a game, you need a sustainable source of income. Single purchases are spikes. Lockbox keys are the stream.
Character unlock ships that don't get perma-killed, and are avaialable to even someone like me with enough ECs.
My character Tsin'xing
It's fine that you are concerned about how the potential outcome from the lootbox fallout is going to affect STO.
But you have to understand that the way EA implemented lootboxes in Star Wars: Battlefront 2 was extremely predatory in nature. Not only was it a $60 game upon release, but in order to progress in the you had to either grind for a very long or pay money to open loot boxes to get Star Cards and whatever other currency (if any) that were needed to improve your character in the game. This is extremely predatory because this is a pay to win system since SWBF2 is primarily a PvP game. You can either grind and continuously loose for 40 to 60 hours to get up to par with all the other players (who would themselves have likely improved their characters as well), or you can spend money to quickly level the playing. Well at least close the gap more quickly depending on how much money you want to throw at the game.
That's fine for adults with jobs as long as they can control their spending habits. But SWBF2 is rated PEGI 12 (12 years and older in the EU) and ESRB Teen (13 years and older in the US). They do not work full time and cannot hope to compete against players who can simply pay to win. You can say, "Son (or daughter), just suck it up for 40 or 60 game hours, by the end of that time you will just be as good as the players you were competing against.... 40 or 60 game hours ago".
Christopher Lee, the Democratic politician of Hawaii, is simply attempting to prevent teenagers from being addicted to gambling as a result of lootboxes in games. EA brought it to the forefront as a result of the extremely predatory nature in SWBF2. He wants to prevent people from becoming addicted to games like "Kensgold" in the following Kotaku article where between the age of 16 and 19 he spent about $13,500 on micro-transactions. Though "Kensgold" stated that he first started spending money on micro-transactions at the age of 13.
https://kotaku.com/meet-the-19-year-old-who-spent-over-10-000-on-microtra-1820854953
Consider the repercussions of spending $13.5k between the age of 16 and 19. Since "Kensgold" used bank statements to validate he spent that much money, it likely meant that he earned most of it by working part-time. I am pretty sure there are a lot of teenagers who have not earned that much money by working to fuel their lootbox addiction. So by what other means could teenagers get that much money to fuel a potential lootbox addiction....???
Nevertheless, however cleverly padded with half-way decent consolation prizes, we need a moment of honesty here, and realize lock boxes are meant for players to gamble with, so they can get the big ship. Everything else is fluff. Sometimes nice fluff, granted, but nevertheless introduced for no other reason than to obfuscate the authorities on the fact that lock boxes are gambling (and to keep the player gambling with the next box, of course, as he'd likely stop opening more if he had nothing to show for).
Do I mind that they're gambling boxes? Not really. In fact, they're good for the survival of the game. But I don't mind if the gambling authorities finally call a spade a spade.
Just because Benefits Dave down the road is an alcoholic, is no reason why the whole town has to go dry, just so he can't fell off the wagon and drink something!
Why are you defending this?? I repeat my question: Do you want this game to close?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
This is why when all this first cropped up, I suggested the re-branding to Lobi Boxes, and with definite fixed rewards, in addition to las occasion to win SomethingBig as well (I'll have to do a search to copy the post back) The distinction may be subtle, but it is a very real one. 125 Zen (aka Master Key) = 3 Lobi Crystals. That's straight up currency conversion, and not a gamble. Lobi can be used for stuff in-game, so it has value as a commodity. That is what Cryptic needs to focus on and present, if they want to keep doing what they're doing. Now, if they were to stop the flyaway of 'DaboMan892@QuarksPleasurePlanet has won a SUPERAWESOME PRIZE', then they couldn't even be accused of encouraging people to take la chance
On another note, sooo good to see you posting again
*ExtraForTheEditMonster
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Quoted for truth. As long as we're talking Germany, if this action would be taken politicians would do something else than "blowing hot air" to prevent it by changing the law. But many countries work very different from the US here in that the government has way less power in many details because it is delegated to independent institutions which cannot easily be closed down or whose heads cannot be switched out at a whim.
Also, simple rebranding wouldn't work in Germany. Sure, the guaranteed price of 3 lobi may make it considered "buying something with a cereal box goodie maybe inside", but that wouldn't be dependent on the name given to it, rather on the considered relative value, odds and similar. There are odds that such a loophole would hold up as long as nobody wants to unsettle stuff, and legally sound definitions will be difficult to make up, but if the impression of the respective bureaucrats would be that people bought them not for the lobi but for the other stuff, it may get difficult. It will be no easy thing either way (after all, trading cards also guarantee you a certain payout, though it may be of vastly different value).
I am no legal expert, but I also doubt that the fact that you can "grind it out" (by the way: technically not guaranteed if people stopped buying dil) in and of itself would help. But there are quite a few mitigating factors here, so even if such a ban would take place, it is not at all assured that STO would be affected.
Nope, I don't want to. But your personal opinion will not change anything here. And children are impulsive, and parents cannot always watch everything they do, so certain protections will have to be in place. Just because Dave is an alcoholic, alcohol won't be disallowed (though especially alcohol is an oddity in drug terms, but I digress), but it will be checked that e. g. kids cannot legally buy it and people selling to them may get in trouble. And such a check may be needed here, too, to satisfy the law.
And publishing the odds may be required additionally, but will not satisfy the "gambling yes or no?" issue. Nor will "just buying some gambling licence", because getting one would, amongst other things, require you to ascertain that no minors will take part.
In the end this is a German thing though. But Germany may be one of the bigger markets, so it may mean a major slump, if Germans were blocked. Or there may be a solution.
It should be mentioned though that this whole idea is more targeted at games for mobile phones, so it won't affect MMOs as much.
My character Tsin'xing
Agreed, my personal opinion likely won't change anything. But you know what? I'd rather have made the suggestions I made about re-branding (and will re-post for ease of reference) which might be of use to the devs/Cryptic, rather than just arguing semantics and hypotheticals about how what game mechanic effects affect what behavioural group etc, like everyone else is doing, and then who will then scream blue murder and throw hissy-fits when the game gets shut down due to lack of profit...
Age verification (such as credit card subscription) won't work in relation to this game, for the reasons previously mentioned: 1) A child could still obtain access, either with, or without their parent's permission 2) It wouldn't stop an adult with gambling compulsions from signing up 3) P2P format clearly didn't work for STO, so they went F2P: If it didn't work then, it won't work now. The people who grind everything for free, won't be willing to pay for something they have always had free access to. If they can't be bothered to pay cash-money for the Shinies they actually want, there's no chance of them paying a subscription fee 4) Not all adults have credit cards. That's four very solid reasons why age verification won't work here for this.
I completely agree, age verificarion could probably be introduced to work for other things, but not for this game. That's why it would have to be/become compliant to any 'no gambling' statutes... Age verification isn't an option. It won't work, so something else (compliance) has to be considered instead. The more ideas we can generate, then the more options Cryptic have to potentially consider and choose from, if/when the time comes.
Cryptic have been good enough to create this sandbox which we're playing in. I'd rather help them keep it open, in however limited way, that I can, rather than do nothing. Because sitting back and arguing semantics, agreeing with the people who want to do this is what will get this, and many other games, shut down in some markets. Germany has a huge STO contingent, that's obvious from the amount of flyaways in German, and players I see in-game, whose bio information is in German. Losing out on a market like that (due to nanny-state bureaucracy) will hit Cryptic's pocket. Hard. And if I can do something to try and do something which might give them an idea how to prevent that happening, then that's what I'd rather do. Make no mistake, this is a definite Win:Lose scenario. (With 'win' most likely being making changes to be in compliance to EU findings, rather than the case simply being dismissed and people forgetting about it) I
Am
Not
Willing
to allow my primary form of entertainment, to be shutdown thanks to some BigBrother-Knows-Best do-gooder in Hawaii, without at least trying to suggest ways Cryptic could modify the game to be in compliance with such potential changes.
If kael never passes on my suggestions, or if Cryptic choose not to use them, and go another way, then fine. But I'll at least be able to tell myself that I Did My Part to help. That I Tried to stop it from happening, rather than just passively sitting back, letting it happen, and then throwing some outraged tantrum afterwards, demanding to know why the game doesn't load anymore, and the lights have been turned off...
/RantOver #NotDirectedAtYouPersonally
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth