Should be noted there there is examples of the Klingon Empire taking a more calculated stance to being a warrior culture, in fact they that most of the TOS era, even well after TNG had launched in "The Undiscovered Country" warlike and dangerous sure but capable of asking the question "is this conflict in my best intrest" and also capable of anwsering "no, peace is the better alternative here".
So Klingons are physically able to avoid fighting if they think doing so is in their best intrests.
Should be noted there there is examples of the Klingon Empire taking a more calculated stance to being a warrior culture, in fact they that most of the TOS era, even well after TNG had launched in "The Undiscovered Country" warlike and dangerous sure but capable of asking the question "is this conflict in my best intrest" and also capable of anwsering "no, peace is the better alternative here".
So Klingons are physically able to avoid fighting if they think doing so is in their best intrests.
Also we should note that we actually see very little about how your average citizen of the Klingon Empire lives, most klingons we see are of the "warrior caste" so to speak, so obviously they would be all about fighting and wars, but we know klingon scientist do exist even if they're not all that respected.
The Klingons are just another tired planet of hats race that is so ridiculously one-sided as to be absurd.
In reality any race that was only into war and fighting as much as they are portrayed would be short lived. I mean they have warp drive, antimatter, science must play a role in their culture yet they are always portrayed as brutish space thugs, more akin to dumb LOTR orcs than any sort of space faring civilisation.
As such I don’t think their development mak s sense compared to real world examples. But it does make for a nice story background I guess. The thuggish warrriors becoming more accepting of others and embracing some diversity.
That's a big part of why I head-canon it that the foundation of Klingon science is Hur'q technology. The Hur'q forced the Klingons to learn about a lot of things they wouldn't have thought of otherwise.
Honestly, I think the Klingon are actually quite intelligent. Just they also happen to REALLY LIKE fighting. Think the Vikings of Earth history. Actually quite skilled at things like shipbuilding, metalworking, poetry, and the like. Just also very very keen on raiding and fighting.
Well the Viking comparison is appropriate because the Klingons are somewhat inspired by it.
BUT.. classical Viking culture was unstable. What most people think of as Viking culture was the way their society was when it had started falling apart. Since Klingon society is in a similar state then it seems likely they are similarly transitioning to a different culture.
> @markhawkman said: > soullessraptor wrote: » > > markhawkman wrote: » > > patrickngo wrote: » > > and that means bodycounts in the BILLIONS. > > > > That or contracting a mysterious disease that causes them to grow brains inside their empty skulls. lordsteve1 wrote: » > > The Klingons are just another tired planet of hats race that is so ridiculously one-sided as to be absurd. > In reality any race that was only into war and fighting as much as they are portrayed would be short lived. I mean they have warp drive, antimatter, science must play a role in their culture yet they are always portrayed as brutish space thugs, more akin to dumb LOTR orcs than any sort of space faring civilisation. > > As such I don’t think their development mak s sense compared to real world examples. But it does make for a nice story background I guess. The thuggish warrriors becoming more accepting of others and embracing some diversity. > > > > That's a big part of why I head-canon it that the foundation of Klingon science is Hur'q technology. The Hur'q forced the Klingons to learn about a lot of things they wouldn't have thought of otherwise. > > > > Honestly, I think the Klingon are actually quite intelligent. Just they also happen to REALLY LIKE fighting. Think the Vikings of Earth history. Actually quite skilled at things like shipbuilding, metalworking, poetry, and the like. Just also very very keen on raiding and fighting. > > > > Well the Viking comparison is appropriate because the Klingons are somewhat inspired by it. > > BUT.. classical Viking culture was unstable. What most people think of as Viking culture was the way their society was when it had started falling apart. Since Klingon society is in a similar state then it seems likely they are similarly transitioning to a different culture.
They're definitely in a state of transition. In this case, it appears to be a split between traditionalist Klingons (Imperialist, belligerent, and aggressive) and a newer generation, shaped more by contact with Starfleet (Open to advancing vassals, willing to sit down and openly discuss matters)
that's not what the UFP is. The United Federation of Planets is another Empire. to consume an empire as large, and dare I say, diverse, as the Klingon empire, it's not going to be because "Hey we like your floral prints." the Klingon Empire has to hit Failure point so severely that it can't recover.
Failures that extreme always end up with lots of deaths, in a place as large and developed as the Klingon Empire, that's BILLIONS of deaths-possibly over many worlds.
A war, a plague, an economic downturn so severe it kills people in industrial job-lots...
You mean like the Iconian War? They were probably still recovering from the Dominion War when they got stuck with the butcher's bill for that, not to mention the war they launched against the Federation for the sole reason....if the fanfics the devs write is canon for STO....of making sure the Feds were ready for what they already knew was coming. The Alliance barely survived the War...the Iconians reconsidered their actions, they weren't really defeated....I doubt the High Council failed to notice how close their plan came to failing.
We know that both the Klingons and Romulans are already members of the Federation at the time the Temporal Accords were signed, that is canon. The first moves towards that begin practically as soon as you return from the future, partially because the leaders of the factions know it is their destiny anyhow. IIRC, Quinn tells the Fed toon that since it is going to happen, they may as well get things started. Pretty much, there is either some sort of war or disaster in the future we haven't been told of yet....or the Klingons decide that the Iconian War was the last straw and their continued survival depends on Unity with the other major factions (remember, the Dominion is still out there). From what I've seen in game the latter is the motivation.
Anyhow, you seem to think for some reason the changes will be all one way...that is nonsense. The Klingons and Romulans joining the Federation will change it just as irrevocably as it changes the Klingons and Romulans. For one thing, they get to vote, and will make up an important voter block in their own right. Also, Starfleet and the Federation Gov't will receive a influx of Klingons and Romulans who even with the rough edges smoothed down will still be more warlike and inclined to Realpolitik than the more idealistic humans. The end result will be a Federation that is somewhat more pragmatic and willing to use force that it has been in the past.
I agree largely with what's been said here. I think there has been numerous statements made since the conclusion of Deep Space 9 that the Empire needs to change. The trick is to keep the Klingons recognizable, while still reinventing them enough to make their story fresh and interesting. I don't expect to see this ever, since the franchise seems unwilling to venture beyond the established the 400 year timeline of Trek, but I had an idea a while ago that I thought would be cool.
What we know of Klingon culture is inspired largely by Northern Europe, minus their allegorical representation as the USSR in the Original Series. A lot of the Klingon myths were lifted from Celtic lore, they have their own Valhalla, and the warrior culture is pretty reminiscent of the Vikings. In the same spirit as seeing the Romulans go from an empire to a republic, it would be interesting to see the Klingons follow the same track as the regions they were based on. I'm not so familiar with British/Scandinavian history immediately after the Vikings, Picts, etc., but the next time that England gets a lot of attention is as the British Empire.
The concept I came up with was that after a century or so of civil war and the empire breaking up, it would reunify as a new one. This time however it operates like the British Empire.
After centuries of blood lust and debauchery, the Klingons would become more restrained and almost Victorian. They could be a little more classy and more decorated, but maintain their ignorance.
Even the Klingons we're supposed to like routinely make comments about other races being weaker or more cowardly. So instead of just going around conquering arbitrarily, the new empire could be a colonizing force that see themselves as civilizing other worlds while gaining resources.
As I see it, this would change the Klingons enough and make them less foolhardy in their desire for battle, but preserve their ambition for expansion as a ruling class.
It would also make it easier for these more temperate Klingons to maintain an alliance with the Federation and the Romulans in place of a culture that just wants to fight all the time, and occasionally turns on it's allies when there is a shortage of enemies. At the same time, their focused efforts of supremacy and subjugation of other races could keep the juicy political intrigue going when the other factions try to step in and say, "Hey. Stop colonizing the 'savages.'"
There's no rule that says these fictional races have to maintain the same tracks in progress as their inspirations, but I thought it was a neat concept and it would fit in a world where the Klingons are being forced to reevaluate themselves as a galactic power that has to learn to play nice with the more reserved nations.
Anyhow, you seem to think for some reason the changes will be all one way...that is nonsense. The Klingons and Romulans joining the Federation will change it just as irrevocably as it changes the Klingons and Romulans. For one thing, they get to vote, and will make up an important voter block in their own right. Also, Starfleet and the Federation Gov't will receive a influx of Klingons and Romulans who even with the rough edges smoothed down will still be more warlike and inclined to Realpolitik than the more idealistic humans. The end result will be a Federation that is somewhat more pragmatic and willing to use force that it has been in the past.
--Good point. It would be interesting to see the franchise evolve beyond the human condition when that becomes one small element of a larger whole. It would be cool to reinvent everything we assume about the Federation.
<<By "now" (the time of DS9, Voyagaer, TNG) humans must be a small minority
of the Federation's population. Does the composition of Starfleet reflect
that, or it is a majority or plurality human organization.>>
Answer:
For production reasons, Starfleet on TV is a predominantly human
organization, but we presume that it's a far more heterogenous outfit that we
can normally afford to show. The exact proportions have never been discussed
to my knowledge.
Well to be fair, in many other media where alien appearances are less costly (such as in books) aliens tend to play a greater role.
The USS Titan has to be one of the best examples, and there are Trill captains such as Dax on the Aventine.
- Many Federation presidents both in the books and in the series were of non-human origin: Ra-ghoratreii, Min Zife, Jaresh-Inyo.
- Also in the books, councillors such as T'Los are usually considered important in providing the necessary votes for decisions.
- Even before the Federation was founded, Andorians such as Shran already held important positions.
- Then there are many important diplomatic personnel and policy makers that are of non-human heritage. Take Sarek as just one prominent example.
- In STO we also have a non-human president and although we see aliens as low ranking species (the Bolian security officer for example) there are plenty of alien captains and admirals, some of whom can be considered quite important characters: Quinn, Tuvok, the Bajoran captain of the USS Gold, the Bolian captain in charge of the counter-offensive against the Undine in the battlezone, admiral T'Nae, captain Shon, captain Vo'lok, Nog and so on.
So Starfleet and the Federation are more than just a bunch of humans plus a token Vulcan. And whenever it is feasible to show this, it is usually done.
Presentation is 100% irrelevant when talk about matters of lore as all presentations of any fictional universe are inherently wrong due to real world imitations of presenting something unreal.
want proof? name 1 major character born on a colony (besides Tasha Yar, who is basically a minor recurring character.)
Ahh yes the ever infamous "name one of X... except the one that proves me wrong which I am going to preemptively say you can't use because I know it proves me wrong" argument.
Also
-Beverly Crusher was born on a colony on Earth's moon
-Chakotay was born on a colony near the DMZ with Cardassia
-Seven of Nine was born on the Tendara colony
-Travis Mayweather was born on a ship in space
As a counter-question for Pat: how many Human characters actually have a planet of origin stated on screen?
There's no rule that says these fictional races have to maintain the same tracks in progress as their inspirations, but I thought it was a neat concept and it would fit in a world where the Klingons are being forced to reevaluate themselves as a galactic power that has to learn to play nice with the more reserved nations.
Just a thought--просто так.
Well, Klingons are at least in part inspired by Vikings. Where are the Vikings descendants today? There are people like me who do looting and pillaging in video games. But yeah... only in video games. Modern Norway and Sweden are rather famous for being pacifists.
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Also, the main problem that original Star Trek faced was that A) We were looking at ONE ship, one crew. Enterprise may have been largely Human, but that may have been because it was an Earth-made ship. We've never really seen much about how other species may have their ships fitted. (EX, perhaps Andorian ships have slightly different internal modifications to better suit the physiology, or a Saurian ship may be modified to suit their needs), and When Star Trek was being filmed, there was no conceivable way to create advanced aliens that didn't take a LONG time to do (either heavy makeup and prosthetic work, or a full-body suit, neither of which were particularly conducive to actually having any focus on screen).
Lastly moving the goalposts by claiming your statement meant something different is just sad.
Also he's blatantly ignoring the fact we DON'T know where most human characters in Star Trek were born.
Actually, we do know were most of them were born:
James T Kirk - Iowa, United States, Earth
Leonard McCoy - Georgia, United States, Earth
Montgomery Scott - Scotland, Earth
Hikaru Sulu - San Francisco, California, United States, Earth
Nyota Uhura - United States of Africa (according to TOS writer's bible and StarTrek.com)
Pavel Chekov - Russia, Earth
Jean-Luc Picard - La Barre, France, Earth
William T Riker - Alaska, United States, Earth
Geordi LaForge - Mogadishu, Somalia, African Confederation, Earth
Beverly Crusher - Copernicus City, Luna
Tasha Yar - Turkana IV
Benjamin Sisko - New Orleans, Louisiana, United States, Earth
Miles O'Brien - Ireland, Earth
Katherine Janeway - Bloomington, Indiana, United States, Earth
Chakotay - Unspecified Federation colony near Cardassian Demilitarized Zone
Harry Kim - South Carolina, United States, Earth
Seven of Nine - Tendara Colony
Jonathan Archer - Upstate New York, United States, Earth
Trip Tucker - (Presumably Florida) United States, Earth
Malcolm Reed - (Presumably England) Earth
Hoshi Sato - Kyoto, Japan, Earth
Travis Mayweather - In space between Draylax and Vega Colony aboard the ECS Horizon
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Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
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The only thing that would change about the Federation, is the villain-of-the-week. the Federation itself is probably the worst violator of "Planet of Hats" characterization, with their obsessive cultural stagnation on pre-20th century classical music and thirties Jazz, obsessive legal process-dogma, and the tendency to essentially compel new races to conform.
Hundreds of Races, yet Starfleet is ovewhelmingly dominated by humans born-on=earth.
here's what's going to happen: Romulans and Klingons will get to keep a few quaint costumes and talk a lot about their dead cultures' philosophy, but at the end of the day, the Federation governor of Qo'noS will write home to Earth, and their children will be learning english in their schools, Earth/Federation values in their schools, wearing earth fashions and listening to Earth music, and the native cultures and traditions will be systematically dismantled until they're 'kid safe' for Earthers. the Hall of Heroes will be a tourist exhibit run by Disney, a museum visited more by aliens than by Klingons, (Unless it's torn down to make room for something the folks in Paris think is more important) and the treasures will go to the Federation's 'smithsonian' equivalent, or the Vulcan Science Academy's primitive cultures exhibit.
Well, Klingons are known to be familiar with Shakespeare, but other than ESL in the schools and increased interest in human culture, that this is largely a pantload, unless you're RPing your Mirror Universe counterpart. No doubt, the Empire has a Military Governor, backed up by orbital defenses, in a starbase above both Qo'Nos and Romulus making sure their unruly subjects obey...or else.
But back to the Federation....does Tellar, Andoria or Vulcan have a "Governor" appointed by Earth? For that manner, does Earth send "Governors" to serve as colonial rulers over any star-faring Member Species's homeworld? Especially two that have both been in space longer than Earth has? How, exactly, is Earth exerting such dominance over the rest of the Federation....in which humans are neither a majority, nor enjoy a significant technologically advantage over the dozens of other species who are members...given their reluctance, expressed again and again in lore, to confront even existential external threats with force? Do you really think the Klingons or Romulans are naive or gullible enough to sign accession Treaties that would take them to the cleaners? And you do remember that they will get to vote....right?
No, the Federation will not be able to absorb both the Romulans and Klingons without significant and irrevocable change. If you want a real world example....look at the 1707 Acts of Union that created Great Britain from the Kingdoms of England and Scotland. It was hardly a easy process...involving multiple wars and insurrections over the entire 17th Century and half of the 18th...but in the end they both benefited greatly from it. I would suspect that letting the Klingons and Romulans into the Federation would probably be as controversial within the Federation..especially Earth and her colonies...itself as it would be on Qo'nos and New Romulus, as they will be well aware that absorbing their two oldest rivals will have a price tag associated with it.
Comments
So Klingons are physically able to avoid fighting if they think doing so is in their best intrests.
BUT.. classical Viking culture was unstable. What most people think of as Viking culture was the way their society was when it had started falling apart. Since Klingon society is in a similar state then it seems likely they are similarly transitioning to a different culture.
My character Tsin'xing
> soullessraptor wrote: »
>
> markhawkman wrote: »
>
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> and that means bodycounts in the BILLIONS.
>
>
>
> That or contracting a mysterious disease that causes them to grow brains inside their empty skulls. lordsteve1 wrote: »
>
> The Klingons are just another tired planet of hats race that is so ridiculously one-sided as to be absurd.
> In reality any race that was only into war and fighting as much as they are portrayed would be short lived. I mean they have warp drive, antimatter, science must play a role in their culture yet they are always portrayed as brutish space thugs, more akin to dumb LOTR orcs than any sort of space faring civilisation.
>
> As such I don’t think their development mak s sense compared to real world examples. But it does make for a nice story background I guess. The thuggish warrriors becoming more accepting of others and embracing some diversity.
>
>
>
> That's a big part of why I head-canon it that the foundation of Klingon science is Hur'q technology. The Hur'q forced the Klingons to learn about a lot of things they wouldn't have thought of otherwise.
>
>
>
> Honestly, I think the Klingon are actually quite intelligent. Just they also happen to REALLY LIKE fighting. Think the Vikings of Earth history. Actually quite skilled at things like shipbuilding, metalworking, poetry, and the like. Just also very very keen on raiding and fighting.
>
>
>
> Well the Viking comparison is appropriate because the Klingons are somewhat inspired by it.
>
> BUT.. classical Viking culture was unstable. What most people think of as Viking culture was the way their society was when it had started falling apart. Since Klingon society is in a similar state then it seems likely they are similarly transitioning to a different culture.
They're definitely in a state of transition. In this case, it appears to be a split between traditionalist Klingons (Imperialist, belligerent, and aggressive) and a newer generation, shaped more by contact with Starfleet (Open to advancing vassals, willing to sit down and openly discuss matters)
You mean like the Iconian War? They were probably still recovering from the Dominion War when they got stuck with the butcher's bill for that, not to mention the war they launched against the Federation for the sole reason....if the fanfics the devs write is canon for STO....of making sure the Feds were ready for what they already knew was coming. The Alliance barely survived the War...the Iconians reconsidered their actions, they weren't really defeated....I doubt the High Council failed to notice how close their plan came to failing.
We know that both the Klingons and Romulans are already members of the Federation at the time the Temporal Accords were signed, that is canon. The first moves towards that begin practically as soon as you return from the future, partially because the leaders of the factions know it is their destiny anyhow. IIRC, Quinn tells the Fed toon that since it is going to happen, they may as well get things started. Pretty much, there is either some sort of war or disaster in the future we haven't been told of yet....or the Klingons decide that the Iconian War was the last straw and their continued survival depends on Unity with the other major factions (remember, the Dominion is still out there). From what I've seen in game the latter is the motivation.
Anyhow, you seem to think for some reason the changes will be all one way...that is nonsense. The Klingons and Romulans joining the Federation will change it just as irrevocably as it changes the Klingons and Romulans. For one thing, they get to vote, and will make up an important voter block in their own right. Also, Starfleet and the Federation Gov't will receive a influx of Klingons and Romulans who even with the rough edges smoothed down will still be more warlike and inclined to Realpolitik than the more idealistic humans. The end result will be a Federation that is somewhat more pragmatic and willing to use force that it has been in the past.
What we know of Klingon culture is inspired largely by Northern Europe, minus their allegorical representation as the USSR in the Original Series. A lot of the Klingon myths were lifted from Celtic lore, they have their own Valhalla, and the warrior culture is pretty reminiscent of the Vikings. In the same spirit as seeing the Romulans go from an empire to a republic, it would be interesting to see the Klingons follow the same track as the regions they were based on. I'm not so familiar with British/Scandinavian history immediately after the Vikings, Picts, etc., but the next time that England gets a lot of attention is as the British Empire.
The concept I came up with was that after a century or so of civil war and the empire breaking up, it would reunify as a new one. This time however it operates like the British Empire.
After centuries of blood lust and debauchery, the Klingons would become more restrained and almost Victorian. They could be a little more classy and more decorated, but maintain their ignorance.
Even the Klingons we're supposed to like routinely make comments about other races being weaker or more cowardly. So instead of just going around conquering arbitrarily, the new empire could be a colonizing force that see themselves as civilizing other worlds while gaining resources.
As I see it, this would change the Klingons enough and make them less foolhardy in their desire for battle, but preserve their ambition for expansion as a ruling class.
It would also make it easier for these more temperate Klingons to maintain an alliance with the Federation and the Romulans in place of a culture that just wants to fight all the time, and occasionally turns on it's allies when there is a shortage of enemies. At the same time, their focused efforts of supremacy and subjugation of other races could keep the juicy political intrigue going when the other factions try to step in and say, "Hey. Stop colonizing the 'savages.'"
There's no rule that says these fictional races have to maintain the same tracks in progress as their inspirations, but I thought it was a neat concept and it would fit in a world where the Klingons are being forced to reevaluate themselves as a galactic power that has to learn to play nice with the more reserved nations.
Just a thought--просто так.
--Good point. It would be interesting to see the franchise evolve beyond the human condition when that becomes one small element of a larger whole.
It would be cool to reinvent everything we assume about the Federation.
Question: Answer:
The USS Titan has to be one of the best examples, and there are Trill captains such as Dax on the Aventine.
- Many Federation presidents both in the books and in the series were of non-human origin: Ra-ghoratreii, Min Zife, Jaresh-Inyo.
- Also in the books, councillors such as T'Los are usually considered important in providing the necessary votes for decisions.
- Even before the Federation was founded, Andorians such as Shran already held important positions.
- Then there are many important diplomatic personnel and policy makers that are of non-human heritage. Take Sarek as just one prominent example.
- In STO we also have a non-human president and although we see aliens as low ranking species (the Bolian security officer for example) there are plenty of alien captains and admirals, some of whom can be considered quite important characters: Quinn, Tuvok, the Bajoran captain of the USS Gold, the Bolian captain in charge of the counter-offensive against the Undine in the battlezone, admiral T'Nae, captain Shon, captain Vo'lok, Nog and so on.
So Starfleet and the Federation are more than just a bunch of humans plus a token Vulcan. And whenever it is feasible to show this, it is usually done.
HINT: not many. Well, Klingons are at least in part inspired by Vikings. Where are the Vikings descendants today? There are people like me who do looting and pillaging in video games. But yeah... only in video games. Modern Norway and Sweden are rather famous for being pacifists.
My character Tsin'xing
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My character Tsin'xing
Actually, we do know were most of them were born:
James T Kirk - Iowa, United States, Earth
Leonard McCoy - Georgia, United States, Earth
Montgomery Scott - Scotland, Earth
Hikaru Sulu - San Francisco, California, United States, Earth
Nyota Uhura - United States of Africa (according to TOS writer's bible and StarTrek.com)
Pavel Chekov - Russia, Earth
Jean-Luc Picard - La Barre, France, Earth
William T Riker - Alaska, United States, Earth
Geordi LaForge - Mogadishu, Somalia, African Confederation, Earth
Beverly Crusher - Copernicus City, Luna
Tasha Yar - Turkana IV
Benjamin Sisko - New Orleans, Louisiana, United States, Earth
Miles O'Brien - Ireland, Earth
Katherine Janeway - Bloomington, Indiana, United States, Earth
Chakotay - Unspecified Federation colony near Cardassian Demilitarized Zone
Harry Kim - South Carolina, United States, Earth
Seven of Nine - Tendara Colony
Jonathan Archer - Upstate New York, United States, Earth
Trip Tucker - (Presumably Florida) United States, Earth
Malcolm Reed - (Presumably England) Earth
Hoshi Sato - Kyoto, Japan, Earth
Travis Mayweather - In space between Draylax and Vega Colony aboard the ECS Horizon
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
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Well, Klingons are known to be familiar with Shakespeare, but other than ESL in the schools and increased interest in human culture, that this is largely a pantload, unless you're RPing your Mirror Universe counterpart. No doubt, the Empire has a Military Governor, backed up by orbital defenses, in a starbase above both Qo'Nos and Romulus making sure their unruly subjects obey...or else.
But back to the Federation....does Tellar, Andoria or Vulcan have a "Governor" appointed by Earth? For that manner, does Earth send "Governors" to serve as colonial rulers over any star-faring Member Species's homeworld? Especially two that have both been in space longer than Earth has? How, exactly, is Earth exerting such dominance over the rest of the Federation....in which humans are neither a majority, nor enjoy a significant technologically advantage over the dozens of other species who are members...given their reluctance, expressed again and again in lore, to confront even existential external threats with force? Do you really think the Klingons or Romulans are naive or gullible enough to sign accession Treaties that would take them to the cleaners? And you do remember that they will get to vote....right?
No, the Federation will not be able to absorb both the Romulans and Klingons without significant and irrevocable change. If you want a real world example....look at the 1707 Acts of Union that created Great Britain from the Kingdoms of England and Scotland. It was hardly a easy process...involving multiple wars and insurrections over the entire 17th Century and half of the 18th...but in the end they both benefited greatly from it. I would suspect that letting the Klingons and Romulans into the Federation would probably be as controversial within the Federation..especially Earth and her colonies...itself as it would be on Qo'nos and New Romulus, as they will be well aware that absorbing their two oldest rivals will have a price tag associated with it.