Not quite. What happens with the Federation is more what happened when the USA came into being. Other groups look at this system, and realize that, despite their notions on it, IT actually WORKS. Look at what the Klingon Empire has done even by 2409. They've given vassal species rights that they had probably never considered. They've allowed Nausicaans, Ferasan, Gorn, and Orions to serve in the military proper, even to captain their own vessels. Their chief diplomatic representative is a Gorn, and the Gorn king has a seat on the high council. And on top of that, they're willing to sit and break bread with the Romulan Republic, which would have been anathema before. They've seen that, remarkably, despite their previous ideology, that the Federation has succeeded, that there have been few major internal conflicts, and that, despite not being warriors, Starfleet has proven to be a powerful adversary. As to why the Federation seems to have a central culture, it's again due to representation. We don't see the drab minutiae of the bureaucracy. There's never been a huge to-do about an election or currency rates. What we see is a very small slice of what is. The universal currency idea is a trope as old as sci-fi itself, almost. As to culture and fashion, both are well and truly alive on the various species home planets. Look at what we see of Vulcan or Ferenginar, or Bajor. Each has its own fashion, architecture, culture, and leadership. The fashion we are most exposed to, though, is of course that of Starfleet, a DEMIMILITARY EXPLORATORY ORGANIZATION. Saying that all the fashion we see looks similar odds like saying all the military movies have similar clothes
Anyhow, you seem to think for some reason the changes will be all one way...that is nonsense. The Klingons and Romulans joining the Federation will change it just as irrevocably as it changes the Klingons and Romulans. For one thing, they get to vote, and will make up an important voter block in their own right. Also, Starfleet and the Federation Gov't will receive a influx of Klingons and Romulans who even with the rough edges smoothed down will still be more warlike and inclined to Realpolitik than the more idealistic humans. The end result will be a Federation that is somewhat more pragmatic and willing to use force that it has been in the past.
--Good point. It would be interesting to see the franchise evolve beyond the human condition when that becomes one small element of a larger whole.
It would be cool to reinvent everything we assume about the Federation.
The only thing that would change about the Federation, is the villain-of-the-week. the Federation itself is probably the worst violator of "Planet of Hats" characterization, with their obsessive cultural stagnation on pre-20th century classical music and thirties Jazz, obsessive legal process-dogma, and the tendency to essentially compel new races to conform.
Hundreds of Races, yet Starfleet is ovewhelmingly dominated by humans born-on=earth.
here's what's going to happen: Romulans and Klingons will get to keep a few quaint costumes and talk a lot about their dead cultures' philosophy, but at the end of the day, the Federation governor of Qo'noS will write home to Earth, and their children will be learning english in their schools, Earth/Federation values in their schools, wearing earth fashions and listening to Earth music, and the native cultures and traditions will be systematically dismantled until they're 'kid safe' for Earthers. the Hall of Heroes will be a tourist exhibit run by Disney, a museum visited more by aliens than by Klingons, (Unless it's torn down to make room for something the folks in Paris think is more important) and the treasures will go to the Federation's 'smithsonian' equivalent, or the Vulcan Science Academy's primitive cultures exhibit.
You can thank Melinda Snodgrass, and her like-minded ilk for that tendency...
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> @patrickngo said: > soullessraptor wrote: » > > Not quite. What happens with the Federation is more what happened when the USA came into being. Other groups look at this system, and realize that, despite their notions on it, IT actually WORKS. Look at what the Klingon Empire has done even by 2409. They've given vassal species rights that they had probably never considered. They've allowed Nausicaans, Ferasan, Gorn, and Orions to serve in the military proper, even to captain their own vessels. Their chief diplomatic representative is a Gorn, and the Gorn king has a seat on the high council. And on top of that, they're willing to sit and break bread with the Romulan Republic, which would have been anathema before. > They've seen that, remarkably, despite their previous ideology, that the Federation has succeeded, that there have been few major internal conflicts, and that, despite not being warriors, Starfleet has proven to be a powerful adversary. > As to why the Federation seems to have a central culture, it's again due to representation. We don't see the drab minutiae of the bureaucracy. There's never been a huge to-do about an election or currency rates. What we see is a very small slice of what is. The universal currency idea is a trope as old as sci-fi itself, almost. As to culture and fashion, both are well and truly alive on the various species home planets. Look at what we see of Vulcan or Ferenginar, or Bajor. Each has its own fashion, architecture, culture, and leadership. The fashion we are most exposed to, though, is of course that of Starfleet, a DEMIMILITARY EXPLORATORY ORGANIZATION. Saying that all the fashion we see looks similar odds like saying all the military movies have similar clothes > > > > > are you familiar with American history? let me try to explain it without going past the 'no politics rule'- the USA was Great if you were from Europe. The indigenous nations in North America didn't fare so well-even the ones that allied early and faithfully to the USA didn't, and that state of affairs persisted well into the 1960's, centuries after they'd been effectively consumed and relegated to reservations. > > when you consider that one of the early Supreme court justices was from an indigenous population, and the reservation still persists, even with the majority actually very mainstream, that we've lost languages from those populations in less than a century (as in nobody speaks or understands those languages)... > > yay, you get to keep your homeworld. The Federation gets everything else. unless you can point me to a Pima Army, or a Cherokee air-force? how 'bout that Stillaguamish space program, or Makah navy? > > They don't exist. This is the most likely and probable outcome for the Klingon people. Qo'noS as a reservation, maybe one of the more 'acceptably assimilated' members being voted into a Presidency with no real power, their culture relegated to tourist items and some 'acceptable outlet', but no real influence outside the fashion industry and maybe entertainment.
You missed the entire point of that. Impressive. The main point stands that America's system was, for the time, considered absurd. This was during the time of kings and queens holding power in all the power players. The US explicitly refuted that, and, despite the attitude at the time, it actually worked out, and kept on working. Suddenly, other countries started adopting the idea, tailored to their needs. As to the Native militaries, remember something. These groups never had one in the first place. And unlike old America, the Federation isn't out to claim territory. It's out to expand the border of known space, and offer other worlds a seat at the table. They aren't colonizing or claiming planets.
Lastly moving the goalposts by claiming your statement meant something different is just sad.
Also he's blatantly ignoring the fact we DON'T know where most human characters in Star Trek were born.
Actually, we do know were most of them were born:
James T Kirk - Iowa, United States, Earth
Leonard McCoy - Georgia, United States, Earth
Montgomery Scott - Scotland, Earth
Hikaru Sulu - San Francisco, California, United States, Earth
Nyota Uhura - United States of Africa (according to TOS writer's bible and StarTrek.com)
Pavel Chekov - Russia, Earth
Jean-Luc Picard - La Barre, France, Earth
William T Riker - Alaska, United States, Earth
Geordi LaForge - Mogadishu, Somalia, African Confederation, Earth
Beverly Crusher - Copernicus City, Luna
Tasha Yar - Turkana IV
Benjamin Sisko - New Orleans, Louisiana, United States, Earth
Miles O'Brien - Ireland, Earth
Katherine Janeway - Bloomington, Indiana, United States, Earth
Chakotay - Unspecified Federation colony near Cardassian Demilitarized Zone
Harry Kim - South Carolina, United States, Earth
Seven of Nine - Tendara Colony
Jonathan Archer - Upstate New York, United States, Earth
Trip Tucker - (Presumably Florida) United States, Earth
Malcolm Reed - (Presumably England) Earth
Hoshi Sato - Kyoto, Japan, Earth
Travis Mayweather - In space between Draylax and Vega Colony aboard the ECS Horizon
That's a nice list, but it's kinda short. It's just main cast, and not even all of them.
Then there's named minor characters and the thousands of background characters...
Not quite. What happens with the Federation is more what happened when the USA came into being. Other groups look at this system, and realize that, despite their notions on it, IT actually WORKS. Look at what the Klingon Empire has done even by 2409. They've given vassal species rights that they had probably never considered. They've allowed Nausicaans, Ferasan, Gorn, and Orions to serve in the military proper, even to captain their own vessels. Their chief diplomatic representative is a Gorn, and the Gorn king has a seat on the high council. And on top of that, they're willing to sit and break bread with the Romulan Republic, which would have been anathema before.
They've seen that, remarkably, despite their previous ideology, that the Federation has succeeded, that there have been few major internal conflicts, and that, despite not being warriors, Starfleet has proven to be a powerful adversary.
As to why the Federation seems to have a central culture, it's again due to representation. We don't see the drab minutiae of the bureaucracy. There's never been a huge to-do about an election or currency rates. What we see is a very small slice of what is. The universal currency idea is a trope as old as sci-fi itself, almost. As to culture and fashion, both are well and truly alive on the various species home planets. Look at what we see of Vulcan or Ferenginar, or Bajor. Each has its own fashion, architecture, culture, and leadership. The fashion we are most exposed to, though, is of course that of Starfleet, a DEMIMILITARY EXPLORATORY ORGANIZATION. Saying that all the fashion we see looks similar odds like saying all the military movies have similar clothes
are you familiar with American history? let me try to explain it without going past the 'no politics rule'- the USA was Great if you were from Europe. The indigenous nations in North America didn't fare so well-even the ones that allied early and faithfully to the USA didn't, and that state of affairs persisted well into the 1960's, centuries after they'd been effectively consumed and relegated to reservations.
when you consider that one of the early Supreme court justices was from an indigenous population, and the reservation still persists, even with the majority actually very mainstream, that we've lost languages from those populations in less than a century (as in nobody speaks or understands those languages)...
yay, you get to keep your homeworld. The Federation gets everything else. unless you can point me to a Pima Army, or a Cherokee air-force? how 'bout that Stillaguamish space program, or Makah navy?
They don't exist. This is the most likely and probable outcome for the Klingon people. Qo'noS as a reservation, maybe one of the more 'acceptably assimilated' members being voted into a Presidency with no real power, their culture relegated to tourist items and some 'acceptable outlet', but no real influence outside the fashion industry and maybe entertainment.
Languages are disappearing all over the world though. Such things are happening everywhere and at all times even just because there is contact between species / countries - even without these countries forming larger political entities.
On the other hand, such increased contact between species or countries doesn't necessarily lead to a full replacement of one culture by the other. Elements may change, sure. But cultures always change, even in isolation because people reflect on their actions, beliefs and ideas. We can see that in, for example, all major religions which have formed smaller groups and different strands of thought even in times when contact with other peoples was much more limited.
Cultures are never fully stagnant and their development as well as the disappearance of elements of these cultures have as much to do with internal processes within these cultures, as what can be considered 'normal' activity (trade, intercultural exchanges etc.) between cultures. Of course there are also the less terrific incidents, as with one culture dominating or absorbing the other as you mentioned but that's only just one (sad) subset of cultural development through exchanges between cultures.
We might as well look at another example: the countries in Europe have formed a political entity, and through cultural, economic and political activities it can be argued that English is slowly replacing these languages - in some languages there isn't even a good translation for some English words, 'computer' being just one simple example.
That doesn't mean that the languages are disappearing entirely though - as long as we are talking about large geographic areas that contain multiple millions of speakers and no outsiders who are forcing their culture on the 'native' populations, they will continue to exist. The colonisation of America is a somewhat unique example and I think it's not a good comparison to the Federation and a possible Klingon/Romulan membership.
I think it matters a lot what the intentions of the 'new rulers' are (colonisation and physical replacement of a population vs. cooperation within a single political entity that isn't out to entirely absorb all aspects of daily life). The fact that 'the Klingons are allowed to keep their planet' could well be enough to ensure that their culture endures, even if they joined a larger political entity. It is happening on one of the smallest continents of this planet, between different worlds such more locally placed cultures should have no trouble to keep existing even if it is within a common policy framework. Cause that's basically what the Federation is.
And to link back to the 'simulation' part of the thread:
Technological developments have also always influenced cultures and the way people perceive their world and own culture. Klingons becoming less violent in 'real life' might well be just another cultural development, it doesn't necessarily have to be the disappearance of their culture. Just like the old sea voyages and the technologies that allowed us to map our own planet have not led to the demise of those who developed those technologies - it allowed them to spread and exchange their ideas.
It also led to more horrible events of course but that usually happened because of bad intentions and a serious difference in power and especially the combination of those two things. It isn't necessarily a result of the development of that technology though, other factors may well have been far more important in those worst scenarios.
And to come back to the Klingon culture: it was in fact a technologically superior race that caused the current Klingon culture to come into existence in the first place as Kagran for example mentions during Midnight.
That doesn't mean that the languages are disappearing entirely though - as long as we are talking about large geographic areas that contain multiple millions of speakers and no outsiders who are forcing their culture on the 'native' populations, they will continue to exist.
The Welsh language is most certainly dying out, and although there are actions and policies in place to try and prevent its decline by pushing its usage, in the Grand Scheme of things, it's already obsolete, and will likely be dead within a hundred years.
And the reason for that, is wholly cultural: English influence within Wales. The attitude of the Welsh (being so laid back and unconcerned about things... Great from the aspect of hospitality, absolutely lethal to the idea of business productivity. I know Welsh business owners, who would be considered unemployable in England (or anywhere else) because they are so laid back and 'whatever, that's good enough...' work ethic leads to either shoddy work, or simply work not done.
There is now a younger(than me) generation of Welsh kids being raised primarily to be Welsh-speaking (which is great from a pride in National Identity aspect) but who have such a poor grasp of English, they wouldn't be able to cope with a Higher Education in England, being delivered in the medium of English. Not because they're too stupid to understand fhe subject matter, but because they don't understand the language it's being delivered in.
That's going to lead to a situation where English comprehension is going to have to be pushed once more, just so kids can be competetive in the job-market, and that will eventually lead to a loss of the language, and thus with it, the history and folk-tales, which only exist in the medium of Welsh...
So yeah, assimilation into the Federation, because it will be better 'for the Empire', would absolutely eventually have a devestating cultural effect on the Klingon People, to the point where they would indeed, be 'Klingon-in-genes only'... Not an immediate effect, but an gradual and inevitable one... :-\
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
lol that's not just welsh problem. It's called tribalism and it's a problem. Rodenberry's vision is to overcome tribalism. He fought in ww2 which is the greatest tragedy so far caused by tribalism.
Anyway. I also have my own native language too, yet I use english more in my daily routines.
> @silverlobes#2676 said: > fleetcaptain5#1134 wrote: » > > That doesn't mean that the languages are disappearing entirely though - as long as we are talking about large geographic areas that contain multiple millions of speakers and no outsiders who are forcing their culture on the 'native' populations, they will continue to exist. > > > > The Welsh language is most certainly dying out, and although there are actions and policies in place to try and prevent its decline by pushing its usage, in the Grand Scheme of things, it's already obsolete, and will likely be dead within a hundred years. > > And the reason for that, is wholly cultural: English influence within Wales. The attitude of the Welsh (being so laid back and unconcerned about things... Great from the aspect of hospitality, absolutely lethal to the idea of business productivity. I know Welsh business owners, who would be considered unemployable in England (or anywhere else) because they are so laid back and 'whatever, that's good enough...' work ethic leads to either shoddy work, or simply work not done. > > There is now a younger(than me) generation of Welsh kids being raised primarily to be Welsh-speaking (which is great from a pride in National Identity aspect) but who have such a poor grasp of English, they wouldn't be able to cope with a Higher Education in England, being delivered in the medium of English. Not because they're too stupid to understand fhe subject matter, but because they don't understand the language it's being delivered in. > > That's going to lead to a situation where English comprehension is going to have to be pushed once more, just so kids can be competetive in the job-market, and that will eventually lead to a loss of the language, and thus with it, the history and folk-tales, which only exist in the medium of Welsh... > > So yeah, assimilation into the Federation, because it will be better 'for the Empire', would absolutely eventually have a devestating cultural effect on the Klingon People, to the point where they would indeed, be 'Klingon-in-genes only'... Not an immediate effect, but an gradual and inevitable one... :-\
Honestly, such a thing could be solved with a minor split. Take it that the portion of kids who don't really see themselves as going off to university go one path, while the university-bound ones go another with more emphasis on higher level English. Same could happen with Klingon and Romulan. Ones who would join Starfleet get advanced courses in Galactic Standard, advanced cultural lessons, etc, while those whose interests lay homeward have other focuses
lol that's not just welsh problem. It's called tribalism and it's a problem. Rodenberry's vision is to overcome tribalism. He fought in ww2 which is the greatest tragedy so far caused by tribalism.
Anyway. I also have my own native language too, yet I use english more in my daily routines.
No, not just, but one I'm using as a RealWorld example of the impact of assimilation, colonization, and the lack/loss of national identity, and how that could certainly be parallelled by the future-Klingon situation
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> fleetcaptain5#1134 wrote: »
>
> That doesn't mean that the languages are disappearing entirely though - as long as we are talking about large geographic areas that contain multiple millions of speakers and no outsiders who are forcing their culture on the 'native' populations, they will continue to exist.
>
>
>
> The Welsh language is most certainly dying out, and although there are actions and policies in place to try and prevent its decline by pushing its usage, in the Grand Scheme of things, it's already obsolete, and will likely be dead within a hundred years.
>
> And the reason for that, is wholly cultural: English influence within Wales. The attitude of the Welsh (being so laid back and unconcerned about things... Great from the aspect of hospitality, absolutely lethal to the idea of business productivity. I know Welsh business owners, who would be considered unemployable in England (or anywhere else) because they are so laid back and 'whatever, that's good enough...' work ethic leads to either shoddy work, or simply work not done.
>
> There is now a younger(than me) generation of Welsh kids being raised primarily to be Welsh-speaking (which is great from a pride in National Identity aspect) but who have such a poor grasp of English, they wouldn't be able to cope with a Higher Education in England, being delivered in the medium of English. Not because they're too stupid to understand fhe subject matter, but because they don't understand the language it's being delivered in.
>
> That's going to lead to a situation where English comprehension is going to have to be pushed once more, just so kids can be competetive in the job-market, and that will eventually lead to a loss of the language, and thus with it, the history and folk-tales, which only exist in the medium of Welsh...
>
> So yeah, assimilation into the Federation, because it will be better 'for the Empire', would absolutely eventually have a devestating cultural effect on the Klingon People, to the point where they would indeed, be 'Klingon-in-genes only'... Not an immediate effect, but an gradual and inevitable one... :-\
Honestly, such a thing could be solved with a minor split. Take it that the portion of kids who don't really see themselves as going off to university go one path, while the university-bound ones go another with more emphasis on higher level English. Same could happen with Klingon and Romulan. Ones who would join Starfleet get advanced courses in Galactic Standard, advanced cultural lessons, etc, while those whose interests lay homeward have other focuses
The thing is though, it's not just about 'going to university', but simply Being-Employable-Somewhere-Other-Than-Wales
It's all well and good giving these kids their national identity, but without instilling any kind of 'get up and go' work-ethic as well, they're going to be unemployable anywhere where Welsh isn't the primarily spoken language, simply due to an unacceptably sloppy work-ethic.
Don't get me wrong, the laid-back attitude of the Welsh is amazing and inclusive to be living in, and when it comes to making new friends, but it's utterly incompatible with any kind of businesses, outside of local businesses, where such laxness is tollerated. So that's going to lead either to insularity and isolationism (which isn't really part of the Welsh approach to life) or loss of that cultural identity (which is inextricably tied to language) for adoption of a more 'universally English' one...
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> @silverlobes#2676 said: > soullessraptor wrote: » > > > @silverlobes#2676 said: > > fleetcaptain5#1134 wrote: » > > > > That doesn't mean that the languages are disappearing entirely though - as long as we are talking about large geographic areas that contain multiple millions of speakers and no outsiders who are forcing their culture on the 'native' populations, they will continue to exist. > > > > > > > > The Welsh language is most certainly dying out, and although there are actions and policies in place to try and prevent its decline by pushing its usage, in the Grand Scheme of things, it's already obsolete, and will likely be dead within a hundred years. > > > > And the reason for that, is wholly cultural: English influence within Wales. The attitude of the Welsh (being so laid back and unconcerned about things... Great from the aspect of hospitality, absolutely lethal to the idea of business productivity. I know Welsh business owners, who would be considered unemployable in England (or anywhere else) because they are so laid back and 'whatever, that's good enough...' work ethic leads to either shoddy work, or simply work not done. > > > > There is now a younger(than me) generation of Welsh kids being raised primarily to be Welsh-speaking (which is great from a pride in National Identity aspect) but who have such a poor grasp of English, they wouldn't be able to cope with a Higher Education in England, being delivered in the medium of English. Not because they're too stupid to understand fhe subject matter, but because they don't understand the language it's being delivered in. > > > > That's going to lead to a situation where English comprehension is going to have to be pushed once more, just so kids can be competetive in the job-market, and that will eventually lead to a loss of the language, and thus with it, the history and folk-tales, which only exist in the medium of Welsh... > > > > So yeah, assimilation into the Federation, because it will be better 'for the Empire', would absolutely eventually have a devestating cultural effect on the Klingon People, to the point where they would indeed, be 'Klingon-in-genes only'... Not an immediate effect, but an gradual and inevitable one... :-\ > > Honestly, such a thing could be solved with a minor split. Take it that the portion of kids who don't really see themselves as going off to university go one path, while the university-bound ones go another with more emphasis on higher level English. Same could happen with Klingon and Romulan. Ones who would join Starfleet get advanced courses in Galactic Standard, advanced cultural lessons, etc, while those whose interests lay homeward have other focuses > > > > The thing is though, it's not just about 'going to university', but simply Being-Employable-Somewhere-Other-Than-Wales > > It's all well and good giving these kids their national identity, but without instilling any kind of 'get up and go' work-ethic as well, they're going to be unemployable anywhere where Welsh isn't the primarily spoken language, simply due to an unacceptably sloppy work-ethic. > > Don't get me wrong, the laid-back attitude of the Welsh is amazing and inclusive to be living in, and when it comes to making new friends, but it's utterly incompatible with any kind of businesses, outside of local businesses, where such laxness is tollerated. So that's going to lead either to insularity and isolationism (which isn't really part of the Welsh approach to life) or loss of that cultural identity (which is inextricably tied to language) for adoption of a more 'universally English' one...
That's sorta part and parcel of what i meant. If they plan to leave Wales at all, they'd be on the cultural and linguistic track. It's just the ones who have made abundantly clear that they've absolutely zero interest in leaving that would be on the non-linguist track. It's the same as, say, agricultural areas of the USA.
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> soullessraptor wrote: »
>
> > @silverlobes#2676 said:
> > fleetcaptain5#1134 wrote: »
> >
> > That doesn't mean that the languages are disappearing entirely though - as long as we are talking about large geographic areas that contain multiple millions of speakers and no outsiders who are forcing their culture on the 'native' populations, they will continue to exist.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Welsh language is most certainly dying out, and although there are actions and policies in place to try and prevent its decline by pushing its usage, in the Grand Scheme of things, it's already obsolete, and will likely be dead within a hundred years.
> >
> > And the reason for that, is wholly cultural: English influence within Wales. The attitude of the Welsh (being so laid back and unconcerned about things... Great from the aspect of hospitality, absolutely lethal to the idea of business productivity. I know Welsh business owners, who would be considered unemployable in England (or anywhere else) because they are so laid back and 'whatever, that's good enough...' work ethic leads to either shoddy work, or simply work not done.
> >
> > There is now a younger(than me) generation of Welsh kids being raised primarily to be Welsh-speaking (which is great from a pride in National Identity aspect) but who have such a poor grasp of English, they wouldn't be able to cope with a Higher Education in England, being delivered in the medium of English. Not because they're too stupid to understand fhe subject matter, but because they don't understand the language it's being delivered in.
> >
> > That's going to lead to a situation where English comprehension is going to have to be pushed once more, just so kids can be competetive in the job-market, and that will eventually lead to a loss of the language, and thus with it, the history and folk-tales, which only exist in the medium of Welsh...
> >
> > So yeah, assimilation into the Federation, because it will be better 'for the Empire', would absolutely eventually have a devestating cultural effect on the Klingon People, to the point where they would indeed, be 'Klingon-in-genes only'... Not an immediate effect, but an gradual and inevitable one... :-\
>
> Honestly, such a thing could be solved with a minor split. Take it that the portion of kids who don't really see themselves as going off to university go one path, while the university-bound ones go another with more emphasis on higher level English. Same could happen with Klingon and Romulan. Ones who would join Starfleet get advanced courses in Galactic Standard, advanced cultural lessons, etc, while those whose interests lay homeward have other focuses
>
>
>
> The thing is though, it's not just about 'going to university', but simply Being-Employable-Somewhere-Other-Than-Wales
>
> It's all well and good giving these kids their national identity, but without instilling any kind of 'get up and go' work-ethic as well, they're going to be unemployable anywhere where Welsh isn't the primarily spoken language, simply due to an unacceptably sloppy work-ethic.
>
> Don't get me wrong, the laid-back attitude of the Welsh is amazing and inclusive to be living in, and when it comes to making new friends, but it's utterly incompatible with any kind of businesses, outside of local businesses, where such laxness is tollerated. So that's going to lead either to insularity and isolationism (which isn't really part of the Welsh approach to life) or loss of that cultural identity (which is inextricably tied to language) for adoption of a more 'universally English' one...
That's sorta part and parcel of what i meant. If they plan to leave Wales at all, they'd be on the cultural and linguistic track. It's just the ones who have made abundantly clear that they've absolutely zero interest in leaving that would be on the non-linguist track. It's the same as, say, agricultural areas of the USA.
Well, this is the thing... There are those who plan on living in England (and elsewhere) who would lack the education/work-ethic to actually be compatible and competetive in a non-Welsh job market (which could then be blamed on all the 'keep Welsh Language alive' policies) and there are those who are happy to stay in Wales, which, from an observer's perspective, is just going to lead to cultural stagnation, which will be tackled by a greater insistence in English speaking (and thus loss of Welsh cultural identity, in order to assimilate into an outside culture. Exactly what patrickngo is describing with the future-Klingons)
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Lastly moving the goalposts by claiming your statement meant something different is just sad.
Also he's blatantly ignoring the fact we DON'T know where most human characters in Star Trek were born.
Actually, we do know were most of them were born:
James T Kirk - Iowa, United States, Earth
Leonard McCoy - Georgia, United States, Earth
Montgomery Scott - Scotland, Earth
Hikaru Sulu - San Francisco, California, United States, Earth
Nyota Uhura - United States of Africa (according to TOS writer's bible and StarTrek.com)
Pavel Chekov - Russia, Earth
Jean-Luc Picard - La Barre, France, Earth
William T Riker - Alaska, United States, Earth
Geordi LaForge - Mogadishu, Somalia, African Confederation, Earth
Beverly Crusher - Copernicus City, Luna
Tasha Yar - Turkana IV
Benjamin Sisko - New Orleans, Louisiana, United States, Earth
Miles O'Brien - Ireland, Earth
Katherine Janeway - Bloomington, Indiana, United States, Earth
Chakotay - Unspecified Federation colony near Cardassian Demilitarized Zone
Harry Kim - South Carolina, United States, Earth
Seven of Nine - Tendara Colony
Jonathan Archer - Upstate New York, United States, Earth
Trip Tucker - (Presumably Florida) United States, Earth
Malcolm Reed - (Presumably England) Earth
Hoshi Sato - Kyoto, Japan, Earth
Travis Mayweather - In space between Draylax and Vega Colony aboard the ECS Horizon
That's a nice list, but it's kinda short. It's just main cast, and not even all of them.
Then there's named minor characters and the thousands of background characters...
Well, it's only the human Starfleet characters from the main casts who we know where they were born. That seemed to be the issue from what I could tell. I was just pointing out that we do know where they were born. As to minor characters and background characters, well, yeah, many are lucky to get a full name much less any background information on their characters.
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are you familiar with American history? let me try to explain it without going past the 'no politics rule'- the USA was Great if you were from Europe. The indigenous nations in North America didn't fare so well-even the ones that allied early and faithfully to the USA didn't, and that state of affairs persisted well into the 1960's, centuries after they'd been effectively consumed and relegated to reservations.
when you consider that one of the early Supreme court justices was from an indigenous population, and the reservation still persists, even with the majority actually very mainstream, that we've lost languages from those populations in less than a century (as in nobody speaks or understands those languages)...
yay, you get to keep your homeworld. The Federation gets everything else. unless you can point me to a Pima Army, or a Cherokee air-force? how 'bout that Stillaguamish space program, or Makah navy?
They don't exist. This is the most likely and probable outcome for the Klingon people. Qo'noS as a reservation, maybe one of the more 'acceptably assimilated' members being voted into a Presidency with no real power, their culture relegated to tourist items and some 'acceptable outlet', but no real influence outside the fashion industry and maybe entertainment.
The Federation doesn't work that way....Roddenberry's vision for the Federation was that it categorically rejected treating other cultures that way, basically it was the United States, revised to correct it's past mistakes while carrying forward the good parts. And it's really a stretch to believe that Earth would be able to subjugate two societies...Klingon and Romulan...both with many billions of people (less so for the Romulans, though they should have reached at least thier pre-Hobus population by the 27th Century or so when they probably joined the Federation), and spacefaring societies that long predate the Federation, like the US did with smaller tribal societies. The Federation lacks the power, not to mention will, to force such a fate onto them.
One thing that you seem to fail to realize is that the power of Earth in the Federation rests upon the consent of all the other species that are in it with them. One major theme of Enterprise was the serious concerns that the Vulcans, and to a lesser extent the Andorians, had about Earth and it's intentions. At the point of the game, the humans are trusted to use the power they have been given responsibly.....one serious misstep could blow that goodwill up forever, something I'm sure the people in Paris are keenly aware of and strive to avoid.
are you familiar with American history? let me try to explain it without going past the 'no politics rule'- the USA was Great if you were from Europe. The indigenous nations in North America didn't fare so well-even the ones that allied early and faithfully to the USA didn't, and that state of affairs persisted well into the 1960's, centuries after they'd been effectively consumed and relegated to reservations.
when you consider that one of the early Supreme court justices was from an indigenous population, and the reservation still persists, even with the majority actually very mainstream, that we've lost languages from those populations in less than a century (as in nobody speaks or understands those languages)...
yay, you get to keep your homeworld. The Federation gets everything else. unless you can point me to a Pima Army, or a Cherokee air-force? how 'bout that Stillaguamish space program, or Makah navy?
They don't exist. This is the most likely and probable outcome for the Klingon people. Qo'noS as a reservation, maybe one of the more 'acceptably assimilated' members being voted into a Presidency with no real power, their culture relegated to tourist items and some 'acceptable outlet', but no real influence outside the fashion industry and maybe entertainment.
The Federation doesn't work that way....Roddenberry's vision for the Federation was that it categorically rejected treating other cultures that way, basically it was the United States, revised to correct it's past mistakes while carrying forward the good parts. And it's really a stretch to believe that Earth would be able to subjugate two societies...Klingon and Romulan...both with many billions of people (less so for the Romulans, though they should have reached at least thier pre-Hobus population by the 27th Century or so when they probably joined the Federation), and spacefaring societies that long predate the Federation, like the US did with smaller tribal societies. The Federation lacks the power, not to mention will, to force such a fate onto them.
One thing that you seem to fail to realize is that the power of Earth in the Federation rests upon the consent of all the other species that are in it with them. One major theme of Enterprise was the serious concerns that the Vulcans, and to a lesser extent the Andorians, had about Earth and it's intentions. At the point of the game, the humans are trusted to use the power they have been given responsibly.....one serious misstep could blow that goodwill up forever, something I'm sure the people in Paris are keenly aware of and strive to avoid.
It's not a matter of 'forcing a change', but a matter of the change being an inevitability, due to the way in which cultures shift and dilute. Creeping assimilation may be gradual, but it's still assimilation, at the cost of the indigenous culture of those integrating, in an unavoidable integration.
*ExtraBecauseThisIsHowTheForumNeedsEditsHandled
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> @azrael605 said: > > @soullessraptor said: > > > @patrickngo said: > > > soullessraptor wrote: » > > > > > > Not quite. What happens with the Federation is more what happened when the USA came into being. Other groups look at this system, and realize that, despite their notions on it, IT actually WORKS. Look at what the Klingon Empire has done even by 2409. They've given vassal species rights that they had probably never considered. They've allowed Nausicaans, Ferasan, Gorn, and Orions to serve in the military proper, even to captain their own vessels. Their chief diplomatic representative is a Gorn, and the Gorn king has a seat on the high council. And on top of that, they're willing to sit and break bread with the Romulan Republic, which would have been anathema before. > > > They've seen that, remarkably, despite their previous ideology, that the Federation has succeeded, that there have been few major internal conflicts, and that, despite not being warriors, Starfleet has proven to be a powerful adversary. > > > As to why the Federation seems to have a central culture, it's again due to representation. We don't see the drab minutiae of the bureaucracy. There's never been a huge to-do about an election or currency rates. What we see is a very small slice of what is. The universal currency idea is a trope as old as sci-fi itself, almost. As to culture and fashion, both are well and truly alive on the various species home planets. Look at what we see of Vulcan or Ferenginar, or Bajor. Each has its own fashion, architecture, culture, and leadership. The fashion we are most exposed to, though, is of course that of Starfleet, a DEMIMILITARY EXPLORATORY ORGANIZATION. Saying that all the fashion we see looks similar odds like saying all the military movies have similar clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are you familiar with American history? let me try to explain it without going past the 'no politics rule'- the USA was Great if you were from Europe. The indigenous nations in North America didn't fare so well-even the ones that allied early and faithfully to the USA didn't, and that state of affairs persisted well into the 1960's, centuries after they'd been effectively consumed and relegated to reservations. > > > > > > when you consider that one of the early Supreme court justices was from an indigenous population, and the reservation still persists, even with the majority actually very mainstream, that we've lost languages from those populations in less than a century (as in nobody speaks or understands those languages)... > > > > > > yay, you get to keep your homeworld. The Federation gets everything else. unless you can point me to a Pima Army, or a Cherokee air-force? how 'bout that Stillaguamish space program, or Makah navy? > > > > > > They don't exist. This is the most likely and probable outcome for the Klingon people. Qo'noS as a reservation, maybe one of the more 'acceptably assimilated' members being voted into a Presidency with no real power, their culture relegated to tourist items and some 'acceptable outlet', but no real influence outside the fashion industry and maybe entertainment. > > > > You missed the entire point of that. Impressive. The main point stands that America's system was, for the time, considered absurd. This was during the time of kings and queens holding power in all the power players. The US explicitly refuted that, and, despite the attitude at the time, it actually worked out, and kept on working. Suddenly, other countries started adopting the idea, tailored to their needs. > > As to the Native militaries, remember something. These groups never had one in the first place. > > And unlike old America, the Federation isn't out to claim territory. It's out to expand the border of known space, and offer other worlds a seat at the table. They aren't colonizing or claiming planets. > > Regarding Native Militaries not existing, tell that to George Custer. Historical note: the story of Custer's Last Stand has been arcaeologically disproven, Custer died early in the battle, on the run, most likely shot by one of his own men for being a cowardly ****, my ancestors simply mutilated his body to cripple him in the next life. Additional historical note, several years before the Battle of the Little Big Horn a US Marshal, who was also an ancestor of mine, arrested Custer for violating the US treaty with the Lakota when he entered the Black Hills and discovered gold, Custer chose to resist arrest and got his **** handed to him.
Not saying their military capacity didn't exist, just that they didn't have formal militaries. They certainly had military power, but it wasn't the regimented, formally compartmentalized organization that we consider military. They didn't have specific armies, or navies, or aerospace programs.
It just occured to me that this thread isn't really talking about the game. Moving to Ten Forward.
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Well, this is the thing... There are those who plan on living in England (and elsewhere) who would lack the education/work-ethic to actually be compatible and competetive in a non-Welsh job market (which could then be blamed on all the 'keep Welsh Language alive' policies) and there are those who are happy to stay in Wales, which, from an observer's perspective, is just going to lead to cultural stagnation, which will be tackled by a greater insistence in English speaking (and thus loss of Welsh cultural identity, in order to assimilate into an outside culture. Exactly what patrickngo is describing with the future-Klingons)
Except that Klingons wouldn't NEED to leave Klingon space really. Also with universal translators the learning languages thing isn't necessarily required unless you're going to speak the language constantly.
Comments
They've seen that, remarkably, despite their previous ideology, that the Federation has succeeded, that there have been few major internal conflicts, and that, despite not being warriors, Starfleet has proven to be a powerful adversary.
As to why the Federation seems to have a central culture, it's again due to representation. We don't see the drab minutiae of the bureaucracy. There's never been a huge to-do about an election or currency rates. What we see is a very small slice of what is. The universal currency idea is a trope as old as sci-fi itself, almost. As to culture and fashion, both are well and truly alive on the various species home planets. Look at what we see of Vulcan or Ferenginar, or Bajor. Each has its own fashion, architecture, culture, and leadership. The fashion we are most exposed to, though, is of course that of Starfleet, a DEMIMILITARY EXPLORATORY ORGANIZATION. Saying that all the fashion we see looks similar odds like saying all the military movies have similar clothes
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> soullessraptor wrote: »
>
> Not quite. What happens with the Federation is more what happened when the USA came into being. Other groups look at this system, and realize that, despite their notions on it, IT actually WORKS. Look at what the Klingon Empire has done even by 2409. They've given vassal species rights that they had probably never considered. They've allowed Nausicaans, Ferasan, Gorn, and Orions to serve in the military proper, even to captain their own vessels. Their chief diplomatic representative is a Gorn, and the Gorn king has a seat on the high council. And on top of that, they're willing to sit and break bread with the Romulan Republic, which would have been anathema before.
> They've seen that, remarkably, despite their previous ideology, that the Federation has succeeded, that there have been few major internal conflicts, and that, despite not being warriors, Starfleet has proven to be a powerful adversary.
> As to why the Federation seems to have a central culture, it's again due to representation. We don't see the drab minutiae of the bureaucracy. There's never been a huge to-do about an election or currency rates. What we see is a very small slice of what is. The universal currency idea is a trope as old as sci-fi itself, almost. As to culture and fashion, both are well and truly alive on the various species home planets. Look at what we see of Vulcan or Ferenginar, or Bajor. Each has its own fashion, architecture, culture, and leadership. The fashion we are most exposed to, though, is of course that of Starfleet, a DEMIMILITARY EXPLORATORY ORGANIZATION. Saying that all the fashion we see looks similar odds like saying all the military movies have similar clothes
>
>
>
>
> are you familiar with American history? let me try to explain it without going past the 'no politics rule'- the USA was Great if you were from Europe. The indigenous nations in North America didn't fare so well-even the ones that allied early and faithfully to the USA didn't, and that state of affairs persisted well into the 1960's, centuries after they'd been effectively consumed and relegated to reservations.
>
> when you consider that one of the early Supreme court justices was from an indigenous population, and the reservation still persists, even with the majority actually very mainstream, that we've lost languages from those populations in less than a century (as in nobody speaks or understands those languages)...
>
> yay, you get to keep your homeworld. The Federation gets everything else. unless you can point me to a Pima Army, or a Cherokee air-force? how 'bout that Stillaguamish space program, or Makah navy?
>
> They don't exist. This is the most likely and probable outcome for the Klingon people. Qo'noS as a reservation, maybe one of the more 'acceptably assimilated' members being voted into a Presidency with no real power, their culture relegated to tourist items and some 'acceptable outlet', but no real influence outside the fashion industry and maybe entertainment.
You missed the entire point of that. Impressive. The main point stands that America's system was, for the time, considered absurd. This was during the time of kings and queens holding power in all the power players. The US explicitly refuted that, and, despite the attitude at the time, it actually worked out, and kept on working. Suddenly, other countries started adopting the idea, tailored to their needs.
As to the Native militaries, remember something. These groups never had one in the first place.
And unlike old America, the Federation isn't out to claim territory. It's out to expand the border of known space, and offer other worlds a seat at the table. They aren't colonizing or claiming planets.
Then there's named minor characters and the thousands of background characters...
My character Tsin'xing
Languages are disappearing all over the world though. Such things are happening everywhere and at all times even just because there is contact between species / countries - even without these countries forming larger political entities.
On the other hand, such increased contact between species or countries doesn't necessarily lead to a full replacement of one culture by the other. Elements may change, sure. But cultures always change, even in isolation because people reflect on their actions, beliefs and ideas. We can see that in, for example, all major religions which have formed smaller groups and different strands of thought even in times when contact with other peoples was much more limited.
Cultures are never fully stagnant and their development as well as the disappearance of elements of these cultures have as much to do with internal processes within these cultures, as what can be considered 'normal' activity (trade, intercultural exchanges etc.) between cultures. Of course there are also the less terrific incidents, as with one culture dominating or absorbing the other as you mentioned but that's only just one (sad) subset of cultural development through exchanges between cultures.
We might as well look at another example: the countries in Europe have formed a political entity, and through cultural, economic and political activities it can be argued that English is slowly replacing these languages - in some languages there isn't even a good translation for some English words, 'computer' being just one simple example.
That doesn't mean that the languages are disappearing entirely though - as long as we are talking about large geographic areas that contain multiple millions of speakers and no outsiders who are forcing their culture on the 'native' populations, they will continue to exist. The colonisation of America is a somewhat unique example and I think it's not a good comparison to the Federation and a possible Klingon/Romulan membership.
I think it matters a lot what the intentions of the 'new rulers' are (colonisation and physical replacement of a population vs. cooperation within a single political entity that isn't out to entirely absorb all aspects of daily life). The fact that 'the Klingons are allowed to keep their planet' could well be enough to ensure that their culture endures, even if they joined a larger political entity. It is happening on one of the smallest continents of this planet, between different worlds such more locally placed cultures should have no trouble to keep existing even if it is within a common policy framework. Cause that's basically what the Federation is.
Technological developments have also always influenced cultures and the way people perceive their world and own culture. Klingons becoming less violent in 'real life' might well be just another cultural development, it doesn't necessarily have to be the disappearance of their culture. Just like the old sea voyages and the technologies that allowed us to map our own planet have not led to the demise of those who developed those technologies - it allowed them to spread and exchange their ideas.
It also led to more horrible events of course but that usually happened because of bad intentions and a serious difference in power and especially the combination of those two things. It isn't necessarily a result of the development of that technology though, other factors may well have been far more important in those worst scenarios.
And to come back to the Klingon culture: it was in fact a technologically superior race that caused the current Klingon culture to come into existence in the first place as Kagran for example mentions during Midnight.
And the reason for that, is wholly cultural: English influence within Wales. The attitude of the Welsh (being so laid back and unconcerned about things... Great from the aspect of hospitality, absolutely lethal to the idea of business productivity. I know Welsh business owners, who would be considered unemployable in England (or anywhere else) because they are so laid back and 'whatever, that's good enough...' work ethic leads to either shoddy work, or simply work not done.
There is now a younger(than me) generation of Welsh kids being raised primarily to be Welsh-speaking (which is great from a pride in National Identity aspect) but who have such a poor grasp of English, they wouldn't be able to cope with a Higher Education in England, being delivered in the medium of English. Not because they're too stupid to understand fhe subject matter, but because they don't understand the language it's being delivered in.
That's going to lead to a situation where English comprehension is going to have to be pushed once more, just so kids can be competetive in the job-market, and that will eventually lead to a loss of the language, and thus with it, the history and folk-tales, which only exist in the medium of Welsh...
So yeah, assimilation into the Federation, because it will be better 'for the Empire', would absolutely eventually have a devestating cultural effect on the Klingon People, to the point where they would indeed, be 'Klingon-in-genes only'... Not an immediate effect, but an gradual and inevitable one... :-\
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Anyway. I also have my own native language too, yet I use english more in my daily routines.
> fleetcaptain5#1134 wrote: »
>
> That doesn't mean that the languages are disappearing entirely though - as long as we are talking about large geographic areas that contain multiple millions of speakers and no outsiders who are forcing their culture on the 'native' populations, they will continue to exist.
>
>
>
> The Welsh language is most certainly dying out, and although there are actions and policies in place to try and prevent its decline by pushing its usage, in the Grand Scheme of things, it's already obsolete, and will likely be dead within a hundred years.
>
> And the reason for that, is wholly cultural: English influence within Wales. The attitude of the Welsh (being so laid back and unconcerned about things... Great from the aspect of hospitality, absolutely lethal to the idea of business productivity. I know Welsh business owners, who would be considered unemployable in England (or anywhere else) because they are so laid back and 'whatever, that's good enough...' work ethic leads to either shoddy work, or simply work not done.
>
> There is now a younger(than me) generation of Welsh kids being raised primarily to be Welsh-speaking (which is great from a pride in National Identity aspect) but who have such a poor grasp of English, they wouldn't be able to cope with a Higher Education in England, being delivered in the medium of English. Not because they're too stupid to understand fhe subject matter, but because they don't understand the language it's being delivered in.
>
> That's going to lead to a situation where English comprehension is going to have to be pushed once more, just so kids can be competetive in the job-market, and that will eventually lead to a loss of the language, and thus with it, the history and folk-tales, which only exist in the medium of Welsh...
>
> So yeah, assimilation into the Federation, because it will be better 'for the Empire', would absolutely eventually have a devestating cultural effect on the Klingon People, to the point where they would indeed, be 'Klingon-in-genes only'... Not an immediate effect, but an gradual and inevitable one... :-\
Honestly, such a thing could be solved with a minor split. Take it that the portion of kids who don't really see themselves as going off to university go one path, while the university-bound ones go another with more emphasis on higher level English. Same could happen with Klingon and Romulan. Ones who would join Starfleet get advanced courses in Galactic Standard, advanced cultural lessons, etc, while those whose interests lay homeward have other focuses
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It's all well and good giving these kids their national identity, but without instilling any kind of 'get up and go' work-ethic as well, they're going to be unemployable anywhere where Welsh isn't the primarily spoken language, simply due to an unacceptably sloppy work-ethic.
Don't get me wrong, the laid-back attitude of the Welsh is amazing and inclusive to be living in, and when it comes to making new friends, but it's utterly incompatible with any kind of businesses, outside of local businesses, where such laxness is tollerated. So that's going to lead either to insularity and isolationism (which isn't really part of the Welsh approach to life) or loss of that cultural identity (which is inextricably tied to language) for adoption of a more 'universally English' one...
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> soullessraptor wrote: »
>
> > @silverlobes#2676 said:
> > fleetcaptain5#1134 wrote: »
> >
> > That doesn't mean that the languages are disappearing entirely though - as long as we are talking about large geographic areas that contain multiple millions of speakers and no outsiders who are forcing their culture on the 'native' populations, they will continue to exist.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Welsh language is most certainly dying out, and although there are actions and policies in place to try and prevent its decline by pushing its usage, in the Grand Scheme of things, it's already obsolete, and will likely be dead within a hundred years.
> >
> > And the reason for that, is wholly cultural: English influence within Wales. The attitude of the Welsh (being so laid back and unconcerned about things... Great from the aspect of hospitality, absolutely lethal to the idea of business productivity. I know Welsh business owners, who would be considered unemployable in England (or anywhere else) because they are so laid back and 'whatever, that's good enough...' work ethic leads to either shoddy work, or simply work not done.
> >
> > There is now a younger(than me) generation of Welsh kids being raised primarily to be Welsh-speaking (which is great from a pride in National Identity aspect) but who have such a poor grasp of English, they wouldn't be able to cope with a Higher Education in England, being delivered in the medium of English. Not because they're too stupid to understand fhe subject matter, but because they don't understand the language it's being delivered in.
> >
> > That's going to lead to a situation where English comprehension is going to have to be pushed once more, just so kids can be competetive in the job-market, and that will eventually lead to a loss of the language, and thus with it, the history and folk-tales, which only exist in the medium of Welsh...
> >
> > So yeah, assimilation into the Federation, because it will be better 'for the Empire', would absolutely eventually have a devestating cultural effect on the Klingon People, to the point where they would indeed, be 'Klingon-in-genes only'... Not an immediate effect, but an gradual and inevitable one... :-\
>
> Honestly, such a thing could be solved with a minor split. Take it that the portion of kids who don't really see themselves as going off to university go one path, while the university-bound ones go another with more emphasis on higher level English. Same could happen with Klingon and Romulan. Ones who would join Starfleet get advanced courses in Galactic Standard, advanced cultural lessons, etc, while those whose interests lay homeward have other focuses
>
>
>
> The thing is though, it's not just about 'going to university', but simply Being-Employable-Somewhere-Other-Than-Wales
>
> It's all well and good giving these kids their national identity, but without instilling any kind of 'get up and go' work-ethic as well, they're going to be unemployable anywhere where Welsh isn't the primarily spoken language, simply due to an unacceptably sloppy work-ethic.
>
> Don't get me wrong, the laid-back attitude of the Welsh is amazing and inclusive to be living in, and when it comes to making new friends, but it's utterly incompatible with any kind of businesses, outside of local businesses, where such laxness is tollerated. So that's going to lead either to insularity and isolationism (which isn't really part of the Welsh approach to life) or loss of that cultural identity (which is inextricably tied to language) for adoption of a more 'universally English' one...
That's sorta part and parcel of what i meant. If they plan to leave Wales at all, they'd be on the cultural and linguistic track. It's just the ones who have made abundantly clear that they've absolutely zero interest in leaving that would be on the non-linguist track. It's the same as, say, agricultural areas of the USA.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Well, it's only the human Starfleet characters from the main casts who we know where they were born. That seemed to be the issue from what I could tell. I was just pointing out that we do know where they were born. As to minor characters and background characters, well, yeah, many are lucky to get a full name much less any background information on their characters.
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The Federation doesn't work that way....Roddenberry's vision for the Federation was that it categorically rejected treating other cultures that way, basically it was the United States, revised to correct it's past mistakes while carrying forward the good parts. And it's really a stretch to believe that Earth would be able to subjugate two societies...Klingon and Romulan...both with many billions of people (less so for the Romulans, though they should have reached at least thier pre-Hobus population by the 27th Century or so when they probably joined the Federation), and spacefaring societies that long predate the Federation, like the US did with smaller tribal societies. The Federation lacks the power, not to mention will, to force such a fate onto them.
One thing that you seem to fail to realize is that the power of Earth in the Federation rests upon the consent of all the other species that are in it with them. One major theme of Enterprise was the serious concerns that the Vulcans, and to a lesser extent the Andorians, had about Earth and it's intentions. At the point of the game, the humans are trusted to use the power they have been given responsibly.....one serious misstep could blow that goodwill up forever, something I'm sure the people in Paris are keenly aware of and strive to avoid.
*ExtraBecauseThisIsHowTheForumNeedsEditsHandled
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> > @soullessraptor said:
> > > @patrickngo said:
> > > soullessraptor wrote: »
> > >
> > > Not quite. What happens with the Federation is more what happened when the USA came into being. Other groups look at this system, and realize that, despite their notions on it, IT actually WORKS. Look at what the Klingon Empire has done even by 2409. They've given vassal species rights that they had probably never considered. They've allowed Nausicaans, Ferasan, Gorn, and Orions to serve in the military proper, even to captain their own vessels. Their chief diplomatic representative is a Gorn, and the Gorn king has a seat on the high council. And on top of that, they're willing to sit and break bread with the Romulan Republic, which would have been anathema before.
> > > They've seen that, remarkably, despite their previous ideology, that the Federation has succeeded, that there have been few major internal conflicts, and that, despite not being warriors, Starfleet has proven to be a powerful adversary.
> > > As to why the Federation seems to have a central culture, it's again due to representation. We don't see the drab minutiae of the bureaucracy. There's never been a huge to-do about an election or currency rates. What we see is a very small slice of what is. The universal currency idea is a trope as old as sci-fi itself, almost. As to culture and fashion, both are well and truly alive on the various species home planets. Look at what we see of Vulcan or Ferenginar, or Bajor. Each has its own fashion, architecture, culture, and leadership. The fashion we are most exposed to, though, is of course that of Starfleet, a DEMIMILITARY EXPLORATORY ORGANIZATION. Saying that all the fashion we see looks similar odds like saying all the military movies have similar clothes
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > are you familiar with American history? let me try to explain it without going past the 'no politics rule'- the USA was Great if you were from Europe. The indigenous nations in North America didn't fare so well-even the ones that allied early and faithfully to the USA didn't, and that state of affairs persisted well into the 1960's, centuries after they'd been effectively consumed and relegated to reservations.
> > >
> > > when you consider that one of the early Supreme court justices was from an indigenous population, and the reservation still persists, even with the majority actually very mainstream, that we've lost languages from those populations in less than a century (as in nobody speaks or understands those languages)...
> > >
> > > yay, you get to keep your homeworld. The Federation gets everything else. unless you can point me to a Pima Army, or a Cherokee air-force? how 'bout that Stillaguamish space program, or Makah navy?
> > >
> > > They don't exist. This is the most likely and probable outcome for the Klingon people. Qo'noS as a reservation, maybe one of the more 'acceptably assimilated' members being voted into a Presidency with no real power, their culture relegated to tourist items and some 'acceptable outlet', but no real influence outside the fashion industry and maybe entertainment.
> >
> > You missed the entire point of that. Impressive. The main point stands that America's system was, for the time, considered absurd. This was during the time of kings and queens holding power in all the power players. The US explicitly refuted that, and, despite the attitude at the time, it actually worked out, and kept on working. Suddenly, other countries started adopting the idea, tailored to their needs.
> > As to the Native militaries, remember something. These groups never had one in the first place.
> > And unlike old America, the Federation isn't out to claim territory. It's out to expand the border of known space, and offer other worlds a seat at the table. They aren't colonizing or claiming planets.
>
> Regarding Native Militaries not existing, tell that to George Custer. Historical note: the story of Custer's Last Stand has been arcaeologically disproven, Custer died early in the battle, on the run, most likely shot by one of his own men for being a cowardly ****, my ancestors simply mutilated his body to cripple him in the next life. Additional historical note, several years before the Battle of the Little Big Horn a US Marshal, who was also an ancestor of mine, arrested Custer for violating the US treaty with the Lakota when he entered the Black Hills and discovered gold, Custer chose to resist arrest and got his **** handed to him.
Not saying their military capacity didn't exist, just that they didn't have formal militaries. They certainly had military power, but it wasn't the regimented, formally compartmentalized organization that we consider military. They didn't have specific armies, or navies, or aerospace programs.
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