Lastly moving the goalposts by claiming your statement meant something different is just sad.
Also he's blatantly ignoring the fact we DON'T know where most human characters in Star Trek were born.
Actually, we do know were most of them were born:
James T Kirk - Iowa, United States, Earth
Leonard McCoy - Georgia, United States, Earth
Montgomery Scott - Scotland, Earth
Hikaru Sulu - San Francisco, California, United States, Earth
Nyota Uhura - United States of Africa (according to TOS writer's bible and StarTrek.com)
Pavel Chekov - Russia, Earth
Jean-Luc Picard - La Barre, France, Earth
William T Riker - Alaska, United States, Earth
Geordi LaForge - Mogadishu, Somalia, African Confederation, Earth
Beverly Crusher - Copernicus City, Luna
Tasha Yar - Turkana IV
Benjamin Sisko - New Orleans, Louisiana, United States, Earth
Miles O'Brien - Ireland, Earth
Katherine Janeway - Bloomington, Indiana, United States, Earth
Chakotay - Unspecified Federation colony near Cardassian Demilitarized Zone
Harry Kim - South Carolina, United States, Earth
Seven of Nine - Tendara Colony
Jonathan Archer - Upstate New York, United States, Earth
Trip Tucker - (Presumably Florida) United States, Earth
Malcolm Reed - (Presumably England) Earth
Hoshi Sato - Kyoto, Japan, Earth
Travis Mayweather - In space between Draylax and Vega Colony aboard the ECS Horizon
That's a nice list, but it's kinda short. It's just main cast, and not even all of them.
Then there's named minor characters and the thousands of background characters...
Well, it's only the human Starfleet characters from the main casts who we know where they were born. That seemed to be the issue from what I could tell. I was just pointing out that we do know where they were born. As to minor characters and background characters, well, yeah, many are lucky to get a full name much less any background information on their characters.
One thing that I just pondered is the way half-Human characters are typically written, IE not from Earth.
Spock? Raised on Vulcan.
Deanna Troi? Betazed.
B'lanna? some border world.
K'Ehleyr? Well they don't say what planet she was raised on. However she acted human more than Klingon so she was probably raised by humans.
Makes me wonder if the Human population of the Federation still lives mainly on Earth.
except...Klingon space is going to be one, maybe two systems at the most, everything outside of Qo'noS will be "Federation Space".
Except that isn't how the Federation works, or how its ever worked. Colonies belong to the planet who created them, not the Federation as a whole. Though there are Federation colonies as well.
The Klingons would keep all of their worlds such as Qo'noS, Boreth, Forcas, Beta Penthe, Ty'Gokor, H'atoria, Korvat, Hitora, etc. etc.
And the only losses would be worlds that are conquests (Like the Gorn homeworld)
And the only losses would be worlds that are conquests (Like the Gorn homeworld)
Even then, if the conquered world was so used to being part of the Empire that they didn't want to leave, the Klingons likely wouldn't have to actually give them up, just ensure more equal representation on the counsel or w/e.
The Gorn in general seem pretty fine with being part of the Empire.
Not so much as you'd think, I don't believe. The Gorn are rather resentful of the Empire, just have gotten good at knowing their place (or at least knowing that they wouldn't win in a straight battle). If given a chance to reclaim their own sovereignty, I think they'd be all for it. Ferasans might split as well, since they no longer have a shared goal, owing to peace being made with the Caitians.
Note that better off doesn't mean they're particularly pleased with being a vassal race. They know they're better off, but they also resent being a vassal state. If they had a choice between continuing to act as a vassal state, or a chance to return to being recognized as the Gorn Hegemony as peers, they would most likely take the latter (remember, this is considering the Empire and Federation uniting, so they wouldn't be losing any benefits particularly). Same for the Ferasan. Seeing as they are no longer bound by the Treaty of Sirius, which severely limited them. Given access to the Federation, and with restored diplomatic ties to the Caitians, they woud likely also opt for independent recognition
Note that better off doesn't mean they're particularly pleased with being a vassal race. They know they're better off, but they also resent being a vassal state. If they had a choice between continuing to act as a vassal state, or a chance to return to being recognized as the Gorn Hegemony as peers, they would most likely take the latter (remember, this is considering the Empire and Federation uniting, so they wouldn't be losing any benefits particularly). Same for the Ferasan. Seeing as they are no longer bound by the Treaty of Sirius, which severely limited them. Given access to the Federation, and with restored diplomatic ties to the Caitians, they woud likely also opt for independent recognition
Also, I'm sure Slathis would rather have a VOTING seat than his current NON-voting seat.
I'd put it closer to the second example (Houston and Beijing) as it is in the world now. Distinct cultural and political identities, but a lot of commonalities as well. Why? Because, as it turns out, the intermingling of cultures tends to give a platform to certain more well-loved trends. For example, maybe you'd find younger, more open-minded Klingons taking a shine to, say, Earth fashions (things like hats, or the idea of something like jeans), because it's something they find practical, or comfortable, or whatever. Maybe Earth youth would adopt some aspects of Klingon garb, or Romulan fashion as well. Same for races like Andorian or Caitian.
> @soullessraptor said:
> I'd put it closer to the second example (Houston and Beijing) as it is in the world now. Distinct cultural and political identities, but a lot of commonalities as well. Why? Because, as it turns out, the intermingling of cultures tends to give a platform to certain more well-loved trends. For example, maybe you'd find younger, more open-minded Klingons taking a shine to, say, Earth fashions (things like hats, or the idea of something like jeans), because it's something they find practical, or comfortable, or whatever. Maybe Earth youth would adopt some aspects of Klingon garb, or Romulan fashion as well. Same for races like Andorian or Caitian.
The young Klingons seen in B'elanna's version of the Doctor's holographic life did have some Earth/Human aspects of their clothing, and they were planning a Klingon ritual involving assaulting a complete stranger (Knock out Game anyone?). This may have been a hologram but she specifically stated she changed it to be "more realistic" and I'm quite sure the Doctor would have objected had there not been a Klingon population inside Federation space & sharing worlds with Humans and others. B'elanna herself as well as K'ehlyr also support this and the treaty in ST6 specifically allowed Klingons access to Federation space. In early TNG it was in fact flatly stated that the Klingons had joined the Federation.
Lastly, for you pat, not only have no other worlds in the Federation given up their colonies, culture, or any other such aspect, the various former nations on Earth haven't even done so. Even national pride is alive and well, witness Picard's reaction to Data calling French an "obscure Earth Language", or the accent of the Human members of the Rhozhenko family, to name but 2 tiny examples.
Case and point. You get some familiar norms, but tempered by the culture of the one who picks it up.
Also, you forgot everyone's favorite heavily-accented figures. Montgomery Scott, and Pavel Chekov
Well, this is the thing... There are those who plan on living in England (and elsewhere) who would lack the education/work-ethic to actually be compatible and competetive in a non-Welsh job market (which could then be blamed on all the 'keep Welsh Language alive' policies) and there are those who are happy to stay in Wales, which, from an observer's perspective, is just going to lead to cultural stagnation, which will be tackled by a greater insistence in English speaking (and thus loss of Welsh cultural identity, in order to assimilate into an outside culture. Exactly what patrickngo is describing with the future-Klingons)
Except that Klingons wouldn't NEED to leave Klingon space really. Also with universal translators the learning languages thing isn't necessarily required unless you're going to speak the language constantly.
A 'save by technology' deflection which completely misses the point I was illustrating; that without people of A Culture actually Speaking Their Language, they will LOSE their cultural history (because aspects of it only exist within their native language, and so can be lost to history)
Regardless of how it is attained, assimilation, involves the loss of cultural identities. And as has been observed above, the future-Klingons, are Klingon-in-genes only. That their culture would be reduced to the level of tourist-attraction curiosity, is reasonable conjecture, and can be projected/paralleled, by the example I gave, regarding the future of Wales and the Welsh language.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I'd put it closer to the second example (Houston and Beijing) as it is in the world now. Distinct cultural and political identities, but a lot of commonalities as well. Why? Because, as it turns out, the intermingling of cultures tends to give a platform to certain more well-loved trends. For example, maybe you'd find younger, more open-minded Klingons taking a shine to, say, Earth fashions (things like hats, or the idea of something like jeans), because it's something they find practical, or comfortable, or whatever. Maybe Earth youth would adopt some aspects of Klingon garb, or Romulan fashion as well. Same for races like Andorian or Caitian.
except we've seen the future Federation, and aside from a President playing dressup, it's a monoculture, with only one answer, and that answer is to reach back in time to before the monoculture if you want to save their civilization. This means something critical has been lost. (esp. true if you accept the temporal war arc from the Klingon/KDF perspective).
healthy societies don't have to pull travellers from the distant (centuries ARE distant) past to solve the problems of their present, unless somehow their present has left them inherently weak and enervated. This actually happens in STO. it'd be like needing to bring George Washington (or insert another historic figure from 2 or 3 centuries ago) forward because you don't have anyone capable of leading an army during a crisis.
It kinda spells it out without outright admitting it, but the "Klingons" of the future aren't any good in a fight.
that pretty much spells it out, really. their culture is so suppressed, so forgotten, that they can't achieve victory without help from an unpolluted past.
Not 'advise" not 'written guidance or memoirs', they need actual fighters from the past. Doesn't that spell it out for you?
at the conference, we're looking at technology many centuries in advance of the character's own, and they're the only people capable of dealing with the invasion and recapturing New Khitomer from the invaders.
the only explanation that doesn't require four-colour comic-book plots, (aka very heavy-handed narration-of-god) is that the 'Grand Galactic Alliance' has lost the art of war, and must bring fighters from the past because the men of the future are...weak.
including the Klingons-of-the-future.
well, how do they get that way? Obviously, "Elements" of Klingon culture that survived must be tourist-trap friendly, harmless, non-dangerous, certified-non-aggressive elements. The total and complete enervation of the Klingon people to make them acceptable as Federation members. That's the death of a culture right there-going from a culture that teaches children to overcome discomfort and pain, to stand-with-a-fist when threatened, to be fighters, and to resist and bite, to a culture that can't even (with superior technology) win a fight against some rag-*ss renegades from the past without summoning janissaries from the past to do the heavy lifting.
That kind of right there spells it out-Assimilation is the end of Klingon culture, The federation swallows them up and grinds them down into domesticated, weak, passive subjects, unable to fight, unable to defend, unwilling to attack, and unsuitable to serve.
1) A more apt comparison for precisely why they need US to go back and fight would be needing Washington because nobody else knows or has the skill to forge a country from basically nothing. By that time period, it's pretty likely that there haven't been any major conflicts that involved heavy combat. The Klingons haven't lost the art of war, but the tempering of constant struggle. We've been battling since day one, facing foes both familiar and legendary, and we've WON. We're less the only hope, so much as the quickest, safest way to win. We have something that a group accustomed to peace doesn't. Battlefield experience. It's not a cultural thing, it's a matter of the times.
2) I doubt that they've changed the Klingon culture. What it is is that, while the warrior culture has survived, the war has not. They've most likely only had to deal with things like border patrols, instead of full-scale invasions and war. We are brought in because we've faced war, and especially that we have experience with the Krenim
the only explanation that doesn't require four-colour comic-book plots, (aka very heavy-handed narration-of-god) is that the 'Grand Galactic Alliance' has lost the art of war, and must bring fighters from the past because the men of the future are...weak.
Or, you know, its better to use people from the timeframe you are operating in, then using people from the future, in order to limit how much timeline pollution you cause.
at the conference, we're looking at technology many centuries in advance of the character's own, and they're the only people capable of dealing with the invasion and recapturing New Khitomer from the invaders.
If you mean the signing of the Temporal Accords, no one had brought weapons with them because they believed it to be one of the most secure locations in the Galaxy. Not because they had no means of defending themselves besides dragging your butt there. Same thing happens in nearly every conference seen in Trek lore, even in STO. It has nothing to do with anyone being weak.
A Klingon warrior doesn't need weapons, a Klingon is a weapon in themself. A Klingon can kill a human accidentally with no need for weapons (canon reference, Worf accidentally killing a human boy when they accidentally butted-heads playing soccer)
That these future-Klingons have lost the capacity to fight indeed shows a massive divergence from what we know as 'Klingon culture', which, as patrickngo speculates, they lose due to assimilation into the Federation...
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> @silverlobes#2676 said: > somtaawkhar wrote: » > > patrickngo wrote: » > > the only explanation that doesn't require four-colour comic-book plots, (aka very heavy-handed narration-of-god) is that the 'Grand Galactic Alliance' has lost the art of war, and must bring fighters from the past because the men of the future are...weak. > > > > Or, you know, its better to use people from the timeframe you are operating in, then using people from the future, in order to limit how much timeline pollution you cause. > patrickngo wrote: » > > at the conference, we're looking at technology many centuries in advance of the character's own, and they're the only people capable of dealing with the invasion and recapturing New Khitomer from the invaders. > > > > If you mean the signing of the Temporal Accords, no one had brought weapons with them because they believed it to be one of the most secure locations in the Galaxy. Not because they had no means of defending themselves besides dragging your butt there. Same thing happens in nearly every conference seen in Trek lore, even in STO. It has nothing to do with anyone being weak. > > > > A Klingon warrior doesn't need weapons, a Klingon is a weapon in themself. A Klingon can kill a human accidentally with no need for weapons (canon reference, Worf accidentally killing a human boy when they accidentally butted-heads playing soccer) > > That these future-Klingons have lost the capacity to fight indeed shows a massive divergence from what we know as 'Klingon culture', which, as patrickngo speculates, they lose due to assimilation into the Federation...
They can kill humans accidentally, yes. But against a relatively large terrorist cabal, that's not going to do much. Might take down one or two, but then you get yourself and possibly everyone else killed, too
Go back in time to the 1800s and try to operate effectively when the language is different, social mores are different, literally everything is different from the world you come from and no matter how well prepared you think you are you will die fast. The movie Timeline starring Paul Walker showed this quite well but even it did not go far enough. For the future Galactic Alliance it makes far more sense to recruit locally (timewise) than it does to throw away their operatives in utterly futile operations that have not even the slightest chance of succeeding. Just as when you climb Everest you get local guides (even then many die on the mountain every year), you don't say "I've studied this mountain for years I can do this without help" you get locals who actually know the area.
that's fine for operating in the past. but that's not the point here. The point is, nobody in the future was fit to fight. "Klingons are always armed" (TNG showed this) in the present, they don't attend 'conferences' without a means of self-defense...until the future, when all of a sudden, we've got a high Klingon official without so much as a ritual letter-opener.
That is a fundamental cultural change.
It's also possible that said delegate is "armed", but also canny enough to know that any attempt at attacking a well-armed terrorist cabal with anything short of a full arsenal is tantamount to suicidal stupidity.
Less a cultural change, more experience and savvy gained from time
Well, this is the thing... There are those who plan on living in England (and elsewhere) who would lack the education/work-ethic to actually be compatible and competetive in a non-Welsh job market (which could then be blamed on all the 'keep Welsh Language alive' policies) and there are those who are happy to stay in Wales, which, from an observer's perspective, is just going to lead to cultural stagnation, which will be tackled by a greater insistence in English speaking (and thus loss of Welsh cultural identity, in order to assimilate into an outside culture. Exactly what patrickngo is describing with the future-Klingons)
Except that Klingons wouldn't NEED to leave Klingon space really. Also with universal translators the learning languages thing isn't necessarily required unless you're going to speak the language constantly.
A 'save by technology' deflection which completely misses the point I was illustrating; that without people of A Culture actually Speaking Their Language, they will LOSE their cultural history (because aspects of it only exist within their native language, and so can be lost to history)
Regardless of how it is attained, assimilation, involves the loss of cultural identities. And as has been observed above, the future-Klingons, are Klingon-in-genes only. That their culture would be reduced to the level of tourist-attraction curiosity, is reasonable conjecture, and can be projected/paralleled, by the example I gave, regarding the future of Wales and the Welsh language.
Histories can be written down. In fact they NEED to be since verbal histories are notoriously ephemeral.
As someone once said, "The only constant in life is change." Kahless wouldn't recognize Qo'nos as it is today. Is that good or bad? Well I'm sure Kahless would certainly find things that he likes about the way things are now. And I'm sure there are many things he would like about uniting the Federation with the Empire.
Also, as for the "dangers" of assimilation.... I'm pretty sure Kahless would laugh at any who suggested it. I imagine he'd say something like "Do you think Klingons are so weak as to need isolation to preserve their identity?"
Comments
Spock? Raised on Vulcan.
Deanna Troi? Betazed.
B'lanna? some border world.
K'Ehleyr? Well they don't say what planet she was raised on. However she acted human more than Klingon so she was probably raised by humans.
Makes me wonder if the Human population of the Federation still lives mainly on Earth.
My character Tsin'xing
And the only losses would be worlds that are conquests (Like the Gorn homeworld)
Not so much as you'd think, I don't believe. The Gorn are rather resentful of the Empire, just have gotten good at knowing their place (or at least knowing that they wouldn't win in a straight battle). If given a chance to reclaim their own sovereignty, I think they'd be all for it. Ferasans might split as well, since they no longer have a shared goal, owing to peace being made with the Caitians.
My character Tsin'xing
Case and point. You get some familiar norms, but tempered by the culture of the one who picks it up.
Also, you forgot everyone's favorite heavily-accented figures. Montgomery Scott, and Pavel Chekov
Regardless of how it is attained, assimilation, involves the loss of cultural identities. And as has been observed above, the future-Klingons, are Klingon-in-genes only. That their culture would be reduced to the level of tourist-attraction curiosity, is reasonable conjecture, and can be projected/paralleled, by the example I gave, regarding the future of Wales and the Welsh language.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
1) A more apt comparison for precisely why they need US to go back and fight would be needing Washington because nobody else knows or has the skill to forge a country from basically nothing. By that time period, it's pretty likely that there haven't been any major conflicts that involved heavy combat. The Klingons haven't lost the art of war, but the tempering of constant struggle. We've been battling since day one, facing foes both familiar and legendary, and we've WON. We're less the only hope, so much as the quickest, safest way to win. We have something that a group accustomed to peace doesn't. Battlefield experience. It's not a cultural thing, it's a matter of the times.
2) I doubt that they've changed the Klingon culture. What it is is that, while the warrior culture has survived, the war has not. They've most likely only had to deal with things like border patrols, instead of full-scale invasions and war. We are brought in because we've faced war, and especially that we have experience with the Krenim
That these future-Klingons have lost the capacity to fight indeed shows a massive divergence from what we know as 'Klingon culture', which, as patrickngo speculates, they lose due to assimilation into the Federation...
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> somtaawkhar wrote: »
>
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> the only explanation that doesn't require four-colour comic-book plots, (aka very heavy-handed narration-of-god) is that the 'Grand Galactic Alliance' has lost the art of war, and must bring fighters from the past because the men of the future are...weak.
>
>
>
> Or, you know, its better to use people from the timeframe you are operating in, then using people from the future, in order to limit how much timeline pollution you cause.
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> at the conference, we're looking at technology many centuries in advance of the character's own, and they're the only people capable of dealing with the invasion and recapturing New Khitomer from the invaders.
>
>
>
> If you mean the signing of the Temporal Accords, no one had brought weapons with them because they believed it to be one of the most secure locations in the Galaxy. Not because they had no means of defending themselves besides dragging your butt there. Same thing happens in nearly every conference seen in Trek lore, even in STO. It has nothing to do with anyone being weak.
>
>
>
> A Klingon warrior doesn't need weapons, a Klingon is a weapon in themself. A Klingon can kill a human accidentally with no need for weapons (canon reference, Worf accidentally killing a human boy when they accidentally butted-heads playing soccer)
>
> That these future-Klingons have lost the capacity to fight indeed shows a massive divergence from what we know as 'Klingon culture', which, as patrickngo speculates, they lose due to assimilation into the Federation...
They can kill humans accidentally, yes. But against a relatively large terrorist cabal, that's not going to do much. Might take down one or two, but then you get yourself and possibly everyone else killed, too
It's also possible that said delegate is "armed", but also canny enough to know that any attempt at attacking a well-armed terrorist cabal with anything short of a full arsenal is tantamount to suicidal stupidity.
Less a cultural change, more experience and savvy gained from time
As someone once said, "The only constant in life is change." Kahless wouldn't recognize Qo'nos as it is today. Is that good or bad? Well I'm sure Kahless would certainly find things that he likes about the way things are now. And I'm sure there are many things he would like about uniting the Federation with the Empire.
Also, as for the "dangers" of assimilation.... I'm pretty sure Kahless would laugh at any who suggested it. I imagine he'd say something like "Do you think Klingons are so weak as to need isolation to preserve their identity?"
My character Tsin'xing