a bunch of teddy bears took out an entire garrison of elite troops with full armor support
primitive != ineffective
also, with regards to that fight on new khitomer...the klingon was the only one among the delegates actually FIGHTING the na'kuhl - all the rest were standing around with their thumbs up their butts or (in the case of the vorta representative) actively cowering against the back wall
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Also my tribe, and that of other Native Americans, who faced a concerted campaign to destroy their culture, language, and even the people themselves for 4 centuries disproves silver's statement.
Yeah, people who CHOOSE to give up their identity are the only cases where it gets erased.
> @patrickngo said: > azrael605 wrote: » > > It lines up with nothing either of you have said especially since the Ambassador is not unarmed. Geeze try paying attention. > > > > > Teh tactical situation, and the fact that you (the player) are running around with a multiple century deficit in terms of knowledge, equipment, training, and technology, but you're more effective than the entire local defense? I think the tactical situation speaks for itself. The local forces in the 29th century were incapable of defending the station, full stop, they were then incapable of retaking it without you-a rag-**** primitive from 'the bad old days' full stop. > > consider what has to happen for that to be a situation that can happen, particularly in a political enviornment where the Klingon Empire has been absorbed into the Federation-and compare to how Klingons do business in the present and for the last 2000 or so years prior to the present (in canon). > > The most consistent and logical explanation, is that 29th century Klingon culture is a touist trap, because everyone's lost the ability to fight.
It's more that, while they can fight, they also realize that they're outnumbered and outgunned, plus are prioritizing keeping the delegates safe. They're security, not soldiers. We're needed because we come from a more violent era, and have much more training in full-scale hostile situations. As to weaponry, to use a quote from the Halo manual "if it hurts, it works" newer, cutting edge gear is cool and all, but even an older weapon from a more dangerous time is still deadly. > @shadowfang240 said: > a bunch of teddy bears took out an entire garrison of elite troops with full armor support > > primitive != ineffective > > also, with regards to that fight on new khitomer...the klingon was the only one among the delegates actually FIGHTING the na'kuhl - all the rest were standing around with their thumbs up their butts or (in the case of the vorta representative) actively cowering against the back wall
Which is a logical move, seeing as they aren't armed, or presumably well-trained at combat
It's not loss, so much as specialization. These guys are station security trained during a time in which there's been centuries of relative peace. Their training has probably been more focused on quelling minor fights and riots, rather than a full-scale assault. Imagine something like security guards being asked to handle a military operation. As to where the Spec-ops forces are, it's possible that there weren't any on site, and the TLF are blocking distress calls. That, or they got specifically targeted first. Not due to their incompetence, either. Rather due to the TLF having trained to specifically hit New Khitomer that day, armed with better intel due to time travel. As to tech, I'd put our involvement more like needing a Mujahedeen/US Specops/Spetznatz armed with a Cold War AK-47. We're simply more dangerous than a security team, and while archaic, our weapons are on par with the current tech (which itself seems to have stalled, but for good reason).
I don't think it's exactly "best of the best" that we're seeing. More likely, what was there is a station security force (more a police force than military specops), and a security detail that was brought with the president (Secret Service types). Unfortunately, because they know how things play out, they could easily preempt any sort of defensive operation. So they probably have already taken out the actual threats, like delegate guards and such. After all, remember what the Na'Khul specialize in. As to why they didn't fortify the station to the gills, two points. One, there hasn't been a major battle since probably somewhere in the 25th century. They don't expect a major attack. Two, it's a peace talk, and stacking a location full of FEDERATION military sends a message of intimidation and threat.
So no, it's not the martial spirit of the Klingons that has been gutted. What has been lost is the forge of actual, real battle.
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> somtaawkhar wrote: »
>
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> the only explanation that doesn't require four-colour comic-book plots, (aka very heavy-handed narration-of-god) is that the 'Grand Galactic Alliance' has lost the art of war, and must bring fighters from the past because the men of the future are...weak.
>
>
>
> Or, you know, its better to use people from the timeframe you are operating in, then using people from the future, in order to limit how much timeline pollution you cause.
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> at the conference, we're looking at technology many centuries in advance of the character's own, and they're the only people capable of dealing with the invasion and recapturing New Khitomer from the invaders.
>
>
>
> If you mean the signing of the Temporal Accords, no one had brought weapons with them because they believed it to be one of the most secure locations in the Galaxy. Not because they had no means of defending themselves besides dragging your butt there. Same thing happens in nearly every conference seen in Trek lore, even in STO. It has nothing to do with anyone being weak.
>
>
>
> A Klingon warrior doesn't need weapons, a Klingon is a weapon in themself. A Klingon can kill a human accidentally with no need for weapons (canon reference, Worf accidentally killing a human boy when they accidentally butted-heads playing soccer)
>
> That these future-Klingons have lost the capacity to fight indeed shows a massive divergence from what we know as 'Klingon culture', which, as patrickngo speculates, they lose due to assimilation into the Federation...
They can kill humans accidentally, yes. But against a relatively large terrorist cabal, that's not going to do much. Might take down one or two, but then you get yourself and possibly everyone else killed, too
Accidentally or otherwise, the point illustrated, is that by strength alone, an unarmed Klingon, is still lethally dangerous.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> markhawkman wrote: »
>
> silverlobes#2676 wrote: »
>
> Well, this is the thing... There are those who plan on living in England (and elsewhere) who would lack the education/work-ethic to actually be compatible and competetive in a non-Welsh job market (which could then be blamed on all the 'keep Welsh Language alive' policies) and there are those who are happy to stay in Wales, which, from an observer's perspective, is just going to lead to cultural stagnation, which will be tackled by a greater insistence in English speaking (and thus loss of Welsh cultural identity, in order to assimilate into an outside culture. Exactly what patrickngo is describing with the future-Klingons)
>
>
>
> Except that Klingons wouldn't NEED to leave Klingon space really. Also with universal translators the learning languages thing isn't necessarily required unless you're going to speak the language constantly.
>
>
>
> A 'save by technology' deflection which completely misses the point I was illustrating; that without people of A Culture actually Speaking Their Language, they will LOSE their cultural history (because aspects of it only exist within their native language, and so can be lost to history)
>
> Regardless of how it is attained, assimilation, involves the loss of cultural identities. And as has been observed above, the future-Klingons, are Klingon-in-genes only. That their culture would be reduced to the level of tourist-attraction curiosity, is reasonable conjecture, and can be projected/paralleled, by the example I gave, regarding the future of Wales and the Welsh language.
Negative.
Affirmative.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Well, this is the thing... There are those who plan on living in England (and elsewhere) who would lack the education/work-ethic to actually be compatible and competetive in a non-Welsh job market (which could then be blamed on all the 'keep Welsh Language alive' policies) and there are those who are happy to stay in Wales, which, from an observer's perspective, is just going to lead to cultural stagnation, which will be tackled by a greater insistence in English speaking (and thus loss of Welsh cultural identity, in order to assimilate into an outside culture. Exactly what patrickngo is describing with the future-Klingons)
Except that Klingons wouldn't NEED to leave Klingon space really. Also with universal translators the learning languages thing isn't necessarily required unless you're going to speak the language constantly.
A 'save by technology' deflection which completely misses the point I was illustrating; that without people of A Culture actually Speaking Their Language, they will LOSE their cultural history (because aspects of it only exist within their native language, and so can be lost to history)
Regardless of how it is attained, assimilation, involves the loss of cultural identities. And as has been observed above, the future-Klingons, are Klingon-in-genes only. That their culture would be reduced to the level of tourist-attraction curiosity, is reasonable conjecture, and can be projected/paralleled, by the example I gave, regarding the future of Wales and the Welsh language.
Histories can be written down. In fact they NEED to be since verbal histories are notoriously ephemeral.
As someone once said, "The only constant in life is change." Kahless wouldn't recognize Qo'nos as it is today. Is that good or bad? Well I'm sure Kahless would certainly find things that he likes about the way things are now. And I'm sure there are many things he would like about uniting the Federation with the Empire.
Also, as for the "dangers" of assimilation.... I'm pretty sure Kahless would laugh at any who suggested it. I imagine he'd say something like "Do you think Klingons are so weak as to need isolation to preserve their identity?"
It doesn't matter if it's written down or recited verbally. If someone Does Not Understand the language, then they can't listen to it, or read it. Actually, that's not 100% true: They can read and hear it, but it will mean nothing to them, so what they are reading, or listening to, will make no sense. For example, I know how to read Welsh. I know how what I read should be spoken aloud. But I wouldn't understand what I was reading or reciting. Within a hundred years, I fully expect the Welsh language to be, like Latin, dead, outside of niche academic study... And that is what assimilation leads to.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Also my tribe, and that of other Native Americans, who faced a concerted campaign to destroy their culture, language, and even the people themselves for 4 centuries disproves silver's statement.
No, it doesn't disprove anything, other than to illustrate that the circumstances for each culture, and how they reacted to it, are different. We can see that the Klingons of the future can't fight. We're told that they're members of the Federation. We can reason that membership of, and assimilation into, the Federation, has stripped them of their ability to fight. These future-Klingons, are exactly what T'Kuvma, was warning his followers, against becoming. That was what he saw for his people. That was what he feared happening. That was what he was working to prevent (Perhaps T'Kuvma was also visited by the Na'kuhl, as B'vat had been, and warned of the fate of the Klingon Empire...)
I can see the Welsh language, not even 'dying on its feet', but already on life-support, and how being a primary Welsh speaker (and inheritor of a super-laid back attitude) renders a large section of the UK's population, unable to compete in the UK's job-market, because they were raised speaking (and thinking in) an obsolete language, and with such a laid back demeanour, that by the time they bother to think about doing a job, someone else has already done it (and likely done it better) The result of that, is inevitably going to be a swing in the other direction, of parents insisting that their kids learn in, and speak English, so they can be competetive in the job-market. And the more that happens, the more Welsh Culture, will become relegated to the history books (which no one can read) and oral legend which gets forgotten. Don't get me wrong, I don't want that to happen, but from what I'm seeing, it's an inevitability.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Also my tribe, and that of other Native Americans, who faced a concerted campaign to destroy their culture, language, and even the people themselves for 4 centuries disproves silver's statement.
Yeah, people who CHOOSE to give up their identity are the only cases where it gets erased.
Exactly! Those who assimilate! (Or who are made to assimilate!)
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> somtaawkhar wrote: »
>
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> the only explanation that doesn't require four-colour comic-book plots, (aka very heavy-handed narration-of-god) is that the 'Grand Galactic Alliance' has lost the art of war, and must bring fighters from the past because the men of the future are...weak.
>
>
>
> Or, you know, its better to use people from the timeframe you are operating in, then using people from the future, in order to limit how much timeline pollution you cause.
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> at the conference, we're looking at technology many centuries in advance of the character's own, and they're the only people capable of dealing with the invasion and recapturing New Khitomer from the invaders.
>
>
>
> If you mean the signing of the Temporal Accords, no one had brought weapons with them because they believed it to be one of the most secure locations in the Galaxy. Not because they had no means of defending themselves besides dragging your butt there. Same thing happens in nearly every conference seen in Trek lore, even in STO. It has nothing to do with anyone being weak.
>
>
>
> A Klingon warrior doesn't need weapons, a Klingon is a weapon in themself. A Klingon can kill a human accidentally with no need for weapons (canon reference, Worf accidentally killing a human boy when they accidentally butted-heads playing soccer)
>
> That these future-Klingons have lost the capacity to fight indeed shows a massive divergence from what we know as 'Klingon culture', which, as patrickngo speculates, they lose due to assimilation into the Federation...
They can kill humans accidentally, yes. But against a relatively large terrorist cabal, that's not going to do much. Might take down one or two, but then you get yourself and possibly everyone else killed, too
Accidentally or otherwise, the point illustrated, is that by strength alone, an unarmed Klingon, is still lethally dangerous.
Lethally dangerous, yes. But again, one against an unknown quantity of well-armed and equipped warriors of (potentially) comparable strength? Not a winnable battle. At best, you take down a few, but you can't stop an entire group. That'd be like saying a trained martial artist can take down an attacker unarmed, so they should be able to stop a terrorist cell attack on a mall or something.
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> azrael605 wrote: »
>
> > @silverlobes#2676 said:
> > markhawkman wrote: »
> >
> > silverlobes#2676 wrote: »
> >
> > Well, this is the thing... There are those who plan on living in England (and elsewhere) who would lack the education/work-ethic to actually be compatible and competetive in a non-Welsh job market (which could then be blamed on all the 'keep Welsh Language alive' policies) and there are those who are happy to stay in Wales, which, from an observer's perspective, is just going to lead to cultural stagnation, which will be tackled by a greater insistence in English speaking (and thus loss of Welsh cultural identity, in order to assimilate into an outside culture. Exactly what patrickngo is describing with the future-Klingons)
> >
> >
> >
> > Except that Klingons wouldn't NEED to leave Klingon space really. Also with universal translators the learning languages thing isn't necessarily required unless you're going to speak the language constantly.
> >
> >
> >
> > A 'save by technology' deflection which completely misses the point I was illustrating; that without people of A Culture actually Speaking Their Language, they will LOSE their cultural history (because aspects of it only exist within their native language, and so can be lost to history)
> >
> > Regardless of how it is attained, assimilation, involves the loss of cultural identities. And as has been observed above, the future-Klingons, are Klingon-in-genes only. That their culture would be reduced to the level of tourist-attraction curiosity, is reasonable conjecture, and can be projected/paralleled, by the example I gave, regarding the future of Wales and the Welsh language.
>
> Negative.
>
>
>
>
> Affirmative.
As I said, my people disprove your supposed point silver. We fought for literally centuries to keep our language and culture alive, and we are not "just tourist attractions". Our culture has adapted, our young men & women are still awarded eagle feathers for major achievements in their lives, the exact criterion has changed, but the cultural importance has not. Unlike the Welsh (who most likely would also resent and reject your conjecture) we faced our children being stolen from their homes by the government and placed into "schools" where they were punished for believing in our religion, speaking our language, even for wanting to show our heritage, and we resisted it and continue to resist it.
Klingons are no more likely to knuckle under to that sort of repression than we were and the Federation is not old USA. In point of fact, TNG era Klingons took some inspiration from us, the battle cry of Crazy Horse, Hoka Hey, means It is a Good Time To Die, back in the 1980s the translation was often given as It Is a Good Day To Die (its even the name of the Crazy Horse biography). The TNG crew has admitted that is the source for the Klingons saying it.
They can 'resent and reject' it all they hypothetically like, that doesn't stop it from being true...
As someone living in one of The Most heavily Welsh-speaking areas of Wales, and someone of Welsh Heritage (although admitedly, not as much as my Jewish Heritage) I'm not speaking about something as constructed as the narrative of the game, but something I can directly see on a daily basis! People who would be unemployable in England (but who are so laid-back in their approach to life, that they wouldn't give a damn that they would be unemployable) I know someone who moved from one area, back to here, because her kids were coming home from school speaking English, despite her and her partner speaking to them in Welsh at home: She wants her kids to grow up with their culture (and I understand that) but I also know, that in the Big Wide World beyond the Valleys, employers demand more of their employees, than the folks round here are capable of giving.
Harsh, maybe, but truthful. The generation like my friend's kids, they'll be the ones,or at least their children will be the ones, who will see that speaking Welsh, and keeping Local, is limiting their options and their potential. They'll be the ones who will demand more for their kids, who will insist on the English education, who will instill a good work-ethic, and who will encourage their kids to move out of the area. All this nonsense of receiving a letter from the waterboard in Welsh and English, will be wiped out. People will demand to be addressed in English (which is the Official Language of the UK, which Wales is simply a part of)
It'll be the swing back from the current 'lets keep the language alive' movement, replaced with those who will demand assimilation for themselves and their kids. Which will be good. But it will also, be what makes the language and culture nothing more than an academic curiousity, or a tourist attraction of pretty girls in frilly dresses and funny hats...
* And you can say that the Klingons wouldn't knuckle under, like your people didn't, all you like, but the fact is, in the context of This Story, we are shown that they did.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> somtaawkhar wrote: »
>
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> the only explanation that doesn't require four-colour comic-book plots, (aka very heavy-handed narration-of-god) is that the 'Grand Galactic Alliance' has lost the art of war, and must bring fighters from the past because the men of the future are...weak.
>
>
>
> Or, you know, its better to use people from the timeframe you are operating in, then using people from the future, in order to limit how much timeline pollution you cause.
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> at the conference, we're looking at technology many centuries in advance of the character's own, and they're the only people capable of dealing with the invasion and recapturing New Khitomer from the invaders.
>
>
>
> If you mean the signing of the Temporal Accords, no one had brought weapons with them because they believed it to be one of the most secure locations in the Galaxy. Not because they had no means of defending themselves besides dragging your butt there. Same thing happens in nearly every conference seen in Trek lore, even in STO. It has nothing to do with anyone being weak.
>
>
>
> A Klingon warrior doesn't need weapons, a Klingon is a weapon in themself. A Klingon can kill a human accidentally with no need for weapons (canon reference, Worf accidentally killing a human boy when they accidentally butted-heads playing soccer)
>
> That these future-Klingons have lost the capacity to fight indeed shows a massive divergence from what we know as 'Klingon culture', which, as patrickngo speculates, they lose due to assimilation into the Federation...
They can kill humans accidentally, yes. But against a relatively large terrorist cabal, that's not going to do much. Might take down one or two, but then you get yourself and possibly everyone else killed, too
Accidentally or otherwise, the point illustrated, is that by strength alone, an unarmed Klingon, is still lethally dangerous.
Lethally dangerous, yes. But again, one against an unknown quantity of well-armed and equipped warriors of (potentially) comparable strength? Not a winnable battle. At best, you take down a few, but you can't stop an entire group. That'd be like saying a trained martial artist can take down an attacker unarmed, so they should be able to stop a terrorist cell attack on a mall or something.
You're missing the wood for the trees, and given that you're ignoring the examples patrickngo has made, I'm not going to waste my time rehashing the same points...
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> somtaawkhar wrote: »
>
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> the only explanation that doesn't require four-colour comic-book plots, (aka very heavy-handed narration-of-god) is that the 'Grand Galactic Alliance' has lost the art of war, and must bring fighters from the past because the men of the future are...weak.
>
>
>
> Or, you know, its better to use people from the timeframe you are operating in, then using people from the future, in order to limit how much timeline pollution you cause.
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> at the conference, we're looking at technology many centuries in advance of the character's own, and they're the only people capable of dealing with the invasion and recapturing New Khitomer from the invaders.
>
>
>
> If you mean the signing of the Temporal Accords, no one had brought weapons with them because they believed it to be one of the most secure locations in the Galaxy. Not because they had no means of defending themselves besides dragging your butt there. Same thing happens in nearly every conference seen in Trek lore, even in STO. It has nothing to do with anyone being weak.
>
>
>
> A Klingon warrior doesn't need weapons, a Klingon is a weapon in themself. A Klingon can kill a human accidentally with no need for weapons (canon reference, Worf accidentally killing a human boy when they accidentally butted-heads playing soccer)
>
> That these future-Klingons have lost the capacity to fight indeed shows a massive divergence from what we know as 'Klingon culture', which, as patrickngo speculates, they lose due to assimilation into the Federation...
They can kill humans accidentally, yes. But against a relatively large terrorist cabal, that's not going to do much. Might take down one or two, but then you get yourself and possibly everyone else killed, too
Accidentally or otherwise, the point illustrated, is that by strength alone, an unarmed Klingon, is still lethally dangerous.
Lethally dangerous, yes. But again, one against an unknown quantity of well-armed and equipped warriors of (potentially) comparable strength? Not a winnable battle. At best, you take down a few, but you can't stop an entire group. That'd be like saying a trained martial artist can take down an attacker unarmed, so they should be able to stop a terrorist cell attack on a mall or something.
You're missing the wood for the trees, and given that you're ignoring the examples patrickngo has made, I'm not going to waste my time rehashing the same points...
I've answered every one of his points, and I can say that he's extrapolating way too far into saying that ONE DIPLOMAT not fighting off an army of enemies is a sign of Klingon cultural decline. Your saying I'm missing the wood for the trees is based off a similar extrapolation, that one individual represents a "cultural death" of an entire race.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
If the locals were competent, the Players wouldn't be a sideshow-they'd either not have to fight at all, or they'd be dead in the first thirty seconds from the cross-fire of competent forces on both sides...but that's not what happened.
Right, what happened is that you played a combat mission in an MMO. It doesn't matter what you think is "realistic". The game is written to make the player do stuff, which means fighting off future dudes.
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> somtaawkhar wrote: »
>
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> the only explanation that doesn't require four-colour comic-book plots, (aka very heavy-handed narration-of-god) is that the 'Grand Galactic Alliance' has lost the art of war, and must bring fighters from the past because the men of the future are...weak.
>
>
>
> Or, you know, its better to use people from the timeframe you are operating in, then using people from the future, in order to limit how much timeline pollution you cause.
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> at the conference, we're looking at technology many centuries in advance of the character's own, and they're the only people capable of dealing with the invasion and recapturing New Khitomer from the invaders.
>
>
>
> If you mean the signing of the Temporal Accords, no one had brought weapons with them because they believed it to be one of the most secure locations in the Galaxy. Not because they had no means of defending themselves besides dragging your butt there. Same thing happens in nearly every conference seen in Trek lore, even in STO. It has nothing to do with anyone being weak.
>
>
>
> A Klingon warrior doesn't need weapons, a Klingon is a weapon in themself. A Klingon can kill a human accidentally with no need for weapons (canon reference, Worf accidentally killing a human boy when they accidentally butted-heads playing soccer)
>
> That these future-Klingons have lost the capacity to fight indeed shows a massive divergence from what we know as 'Klingon culture', which, as patrickngo speculates, they lose due to assimilation into the Federation...
They can kill humans accidentally, yes. But against a relatively large terrorist cabal, that's not going to do much. Might take down one or two, but then you get yourself and possibly everyone else killed, too
Accidentally or otherwise, the point illustrated, is that by strength alone, an unarmed Klingon, is still lethally dangerous.
Lethally dangerous, yes. But again, one against an unknown quantity of well-armed and equipped warriors of (potentially) comparable strength? Not a winnable battle. At best, you take down a few, but you can't stop an entire group. That'd be like saying a trained martial artist can take down an attacker unarmed, so they should be able to stop a terrorist cell attack on a mall or something.
You're missing the wood for the trees, and given that you're ignoring the examples patrickngo has made, I'm not going to waste my time rehashing the same points...
I've answered every one of his points, and I can say that he's extrapolating way too far into saying that ONE DIPLOMAT not fighting off an army of enemies is a sign of Klingon cultural decline. Your saying I'm missing the wood for the trees is based off a similar extrapolation, that one individual represents a "cultural death" of an entire race.
actually, the one diplomat's just a diplomat, it's the building full of active duty military personnel and classified information with attendant security having to rely on time-displaced primitives to handle a basic security issue that's utterly foreseeable. this isn't the Rose Garden or Camp David here, this is more like NORAD or SAC. Completely ineffectual organic security forces, see?
If the locals were competent, the Players wouldn't be a sideshow-they'd either not have to fight at all, or they'd be dead in the first thirty seconds from the cross-fire of competent forces on both sides...but that's not what happened. What happened, was that the organic, local security elements were utterly and totally ineffectual.
Similar to NORAD, yes. but at the same time, there hasn't been a war for CENTURIES. So yes, the mainline forces are somewhat less effective, but they have never had need to be. It has NOTHING to do with any single culture, everything to do with the consequences of peace.
Or, if you want a potential, plausible narrative explanation: "Oh hey! That one dude from the past, who wrote that one classified captain's log detailing the events of today, is here, so we need to stand around being ineffectual while he fulfills the predestination paradox."
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> @baddmoonrizin said: > Yeah, it's a game. > > Or, if you want a potential, plausible narrative explanation: "Oh hey! That one dude from the past, who wrote that one classified captain's log detailing the events of today, is here, so we need to stand around being ineffectual while he fulfills the predestination paradox."
No, I'm with Patrick on this one. A plausible narrative explanation would have had the player never be allowed to become involved in any of the time war storylines in the first place. "If anyone knows what you did, you failed."
But then again, these are the same timecops who couldn't figure out that having time machines means they can go back in time a few days earlier and take the keys out of the Mary Sueperweapon's ignition so it can't be stolen by some random hammy guy in the first place. Seriously, the timecops in this game make the agency in Spying with Lana look like GSG 9.
Though frankly I think the Klingons' decay in this game started when an Iconian was able to randomly show up in the middle of the High Council hall and kill the entire Council and not have a single person present had the presence of mind to take a potshot at him. Then there's Emperor Darwin Award and the rest of House Pratfall...
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> somtaawkhar wrote: »
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> patrickngo wrote: »
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> the only explanation that doesn't require four-colour comic-book plots, (aka very heavy-handed narration-of-god) is that the 'Grand Galactic Alliance' has lost the art of war, and must bring fighters from the past because the men of the future are...weak.
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> Or, you know, its better to use people from the timeframe you are operating in, then using people from the future, in order to limit how much timeline pollution you cause.
> patrickngo wrote: »
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> at the conference, we're looking at technology many centuries in advance of the character's own, and they're the only people capable of dealing with the invasion and recapturing New Khitomer from the invaders.
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> If you mean the signing of the Temporal Accords, no one had brought weapons with them because they believed it to be one of the most secure locations in the Galaxy. Not because they had no means of defending themselves besides dragging your butt there. Same thing happens in nearly every conference seen in Trek lore, even in STO. It has nothing to do with anyone being weak.
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> A Klingon warrior doesn't need weapons, a Klingon is a weapon in themself. A Klingon can kill a human accidentally with no need for weapons (canon reference, Worf accidentally killing a human boy when they accidentally butted-heads playing soccer)
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> That these future-Klingons have lost the capacity to fight indeed shows a massive divergence from what we know as 'Klingon culture', which, as patrickngo speculates, they lose due to assimilation into the Federation...
They can kill humans accidentally, yes. But against a relatively large terrorist cabal, that's not going to do much. Might take down one or two, but then you get yourself and possibly everyone else killed, too
Accidentally or otherwise, the point illustrated, is that by strength alone, an unarmed Klingon, is still lethally dangerous.
Lethally dangerous, yes. But again, one against an unknown quantity of well-armed and equipped warriors of (potentially) comparable strength? Not a winnable battle. At best, you take down a few, but you can't stop an entire group. That'd be like saying a trained martial artist can take down an attacker unarmed, so they should be able to stop a terrorist cell attack on a mall or something.
You're missing the wood for the trees, and given that you're ignoring the examples patrickngo has made, I'm not going to waste my time rehashing the same points...
I've answered every one of his points, and I can say that he's extrapolating way too far into saying that ONE DIPLOMAT not fighting off an army of enemies is a sign of Klingon cultural decline. Your saying I'm missing the wood for the trees is based off a similar extrapolation, that one individual represents a "cultural death" of an entire race.
That you 'provided responses' to his comments, is irrelevant, as you are ignoring what he is actually saying. And I say 'ignoring', because if you weren't missing the wood for the trees, you wouldn't be disagreeing with him, or trying to counter his points with opinions of your own.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Admittedly, I was being facetious. My first answer is my real answer: it's a game.
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> @somtaawkhar said: > Taking away Noye's ability to steal the Annorax would only create a paradox, as it would prevent the time war from happening in the first place, which means everything that led to the formation of the Temporal Cops wouldn't have happened, thus meaning they wouldn't have existed to take the keys away from Noye in the first place, meaning everything would happen, meaning endless loop.
And yet that's not how it ever worked in canon. In canon, getting rid of the means of time travel simply reverts the timeline to the default, pre-temporal meddling settings, i.e. the timeline that existed before a bunch of terrorists and tyrants* decided to start altering it to benefit themselves. See for example "Time and Again" and "Year of Hell" (original flavor, not Cryptic's ripoff of it).
* Remember, who, exactly, decided that one particular post-time travel iteration of events was correct? The people whom that timeline put into power. Which is a complete perversion of the Federation's supposed founding ethos: that the ends do NOT automatically justify the means.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
primitive != ineffective
also, with regards to that fight on new khitomer...the klingon was the only one among the delegates actually FIGHTING the na'kuhl - all the rest were standing around with their thumbs up their butts or (in the case of the vorta representative) actively cowering against the back wall
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
My character Tsin'xing
> azrael605 wrote: »
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> It lines up with nothing either of you have said especially since the Ambassador is not unarmed. Geeze try paying attention.
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> Teh tactical situation, and the fact that you (the player) are running around with a multiple century deficit in terms of knowledge, equipment, training, and technology, but you're more effective than the entire local defense? I think the tactical situation speaks for itself. The local forces in the 29th century were incapable of defending the station, full stop, they were then incapable of retaking it without you-a rag-**** primitive from 'the bad old days' full stop.
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> consider what has to happen for that to be a situation that can happen, particularly in a political enviornment where the Klingon Empire has been absorbed into the Federation-and compare to how Klingons do business in the present and for the last 2000 or so years prior to the present (in canon).
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> The most consistent and logical explanation, is that 29th century Klingon culture is a touist trap, because everyone's lost the ability to fight.
It's more that, while they can fight, they also realize that they're outnumbered and outgunned, plus are prioritizing keeping the delegates safe. They're security, not soldiers. We're needed because we come from a more violent era, and have much more training in full-scale hostile situations. As to weaponry, to use a quote from the Halo manual "if it hurts, it works" newer, cutting edge gear is cool and all, but even an older weapon from a more dangerous time is still deadly.
> @shadowfang240 said:
> a bunch of teddy bears took out an entire garrison of elite troops with full armor support
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> primitive != ineffective
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> also, with regards to that fight on new khitomer...the klingon was the only one among the delegates actually FIGHTING the na'kuhl - all the rest were standing around with their thumbs up their butts or (in the case of the vorta representative) actively cowering against the back wall
Which is a logical move, seeing as they aren't armed, or presumably well-trained at combat
As to where the Spec-ops forces are, it's possible that there weren't any on site, and the TLF are blocking distress calls. That, or they got specifically targeted first. Not due to their incompetence, either. Rather due to the TLF having trained to specifically hit New Khitomer that day, armed with better intel due to time travel.
As to tech, I'd put our involvement more like needing a Mujahedeen/US Specops/Spetznatz armed with a Cold War AK-47. We're simply more dangerous than a security team, and while archaic, our weapons are on par with the current tech (which itself seems to have stalled, but for good reason).
So no, it's not the martial spirit of the Klingons that has been gutted. What has been lost is the forge of actual, real battle.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Affirmative.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I can see the Welsh language, not even 'dying on its feet', but already on life-support, and how being a primary Welsh speaker (and inheritor of a super-laid back attitude) renders a large section of the UK's population, unable to compete in the UK's job-market, because they were raised speaking (and thinking in) an obsolete language, and with such a laid back demeanour, that by the time they bother to think about doing a job, someone else has already done it (and likely done it better) The result of that, is inevitably going to be a swing in the other direction, of parents insisting that their kids learn in, and speak English, so they can be competetive in the job-market. And the more that happens, the more Welsh Culture, will become relegated to the history books (which no one can read) and oral legend which gets forgotten. Don't get me wrong, I don't want that to happen, but from what I'm seeing, it's an inevitability.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Lethally dangerous, yes. But again, one against an unknown quantity of well-armed and equipped warriors of (potentially) comparable strength? Not a winnable battle. At best, you take down a few, but you can't stop an entire group. That'd be like saying a trained martial artist can take down an attacker unarmed, so they should be able to stop a terrorist cell attack on a mall or something.
As someone living in one of The Most heavily Welsh-speaking areas of Wales, and someone of Welsh Heritage (although admitedly, not as much as my Jewish Heritage) I'm not speaking about something as constructed as the narrative of the game, but something I can directly see on a daily basis! People who would be unemployable in England (but who are so laid-back in their approach to life, that they wouldn't give a damn that they would be unemployable) I know someone who moved from one area, back to here, because her kids were coming home from school speaking English, despite her and her partner speaking to them in Welsh at home: She wants her kids to grow up with their culture (and I understand that) but I also know, that in the Big Wide World beyond the Valleys, employers demand more of their employees, than the folks round here are capable of giving.
Harsh, maybe, but truthful. The generation like my friend's kids, they'll be the ones,or at least their children will be the ones, who will see that speaking Welsh, and keeping Local, is limiting their options and their potential. They'll be the ones who will demand more for their kids, who will insist on the English education, who will instill a good work-ethic, and who will encourage their kids to move out of the area. All this nonsense of receiving a letter from the waterboard in Welsh and English, will be wiped out. People will demand to be addressed in English (which is the Official Language of the UK, which Wales is simply a part of)
It'll be the swing back from the current 'lets keep the language alive' movement, replaced with those who will demand assimilation for themselves and their kids. Which will be good. But it will also, be what makes the language and culture nothing more than an academic curiousity, or a tourist attraction of pretty girls in frilly dresses and funny hats...
* And you can say that the Klingons wouldn't knuckle under, like your people didn't, all you like, but the fact is, in the context of This Story, we are shown that they did.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I've answered every one of his points, and I can say that he's extrapolating way too far into saying that ONE DIPLOMAT not fighting off an army of enemies is a sign of Klingon cultural decline. Your saying I'm missing the wood for the trees is based off a similar extrapolation, that one individual represents a "cultural death" of an entire race.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
My character Tsin'xing
Similar to NORAD, yes. but at the same time, there hasn't been a war for CENTURIES. So yes, the mainline forces are somewhat less effective, but they have never had need to be. It has NOTHING to do with any single culture, everything to do with the consequences of peace.
Or, if you want a potential, plausible narrative explanation: "Oh hey! That one dude from the past, who wrote that one classified captain's log detailing the events of today, is here, so we need to stand around being ineffectual while he fulfills the predestination paradox."
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> Yeah, it's a game.
>
> Or, if you want a potential, plausible narrative explanation: "Oh hey! That one dude from the past, who wrote that one classified captain's log detailing the events of today, is here, so we need to stand around being ineffectual while he fulfills the predestination paradox."
No, I'm with Patrick on this one. A plausible narrative explanation would have had the player never be allowed to become involved in any of the time war storylines in the first place. "If anyone knows what you did, you failed."
But then again, these are the same timecops who couldn't figure out that having time machines means they can go back in time a few days earlier and take the keys out of the Mary Sueperweapon's ignition so it can't be stolen by some random hammy guy in the first place. Seriously, the timecops in this game make the agency in Spying with Lana look like GSG 9.
Though frankly I think the Klingons' decay in this game started when an Iconian was able to randomly show up in the middle of the High Council hall and kill the entire Council and not have a single person present had the presence of mind to take a potshot at him. Then there's Emperor Darwin Award and the rest of House Pratfall...
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
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> Taking away Noye's ability to steal the Annorax would only create a paradox, as it would prevent the time war from happening in the first place, which means everything that led to the formation of the Temporal Cops wouldn't have happened, thus meaning they wouldn't have existed to take the keys away from Noye in the first place, meaning everything would happen, meaning endless loop.
And yet that's not how it ever worked in canon. In canon, getting rid of the means of time travel simply reverts the timeline to the default, pre-temporal meddling settings, i.e. the timeline that existed before a bunch of terrorists and tyrants* decided to start altering it to benefit themselves. See for example "Time and Again" and "Year of Hell" (original flavor, not Cryptic's ripoff of it).
* Remember, who, exactly, decided that one particular post-time travel iteration of events was correct? The people whom that timeline put into power. Which is a complete perversion of the Federation's supposed founding ethos: that the ends do NOT automatically justify the means.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/