Your defense doesn't wash, because everything I just listed is canon fact in the game-a led to b led to c led to a. eliminate a and b, c, d, etc. don't happen. If 'time is self healing' as implied, then the events that are natural to a given point in time, will happen, but without time-travelling shennanigans forcing the issue. Evolution resumes its logical course, cause continues to lead to effect, instead of cause and effect being intertwined through complex temporal mathematics and legalistic gymnastics to keep a specific faction 'on top'.
What you presented was a misrepresentation of the actual events.
The root cause of everything isn't the Annorax, it's Voyager's travel to the Big Bang which set into motion the very series of events(including the Annorax paradox) that led to Voyager being able to exist and go back in time as it is. The Annorax paradox is itself just a symptom of a much larger universal paradox. And since time is self-healing, any attempts to remove the Annorax would naturally get erased as time preserves the sequence of events that led to its own creation, aka Voyager being taken back in time by Quinn. And since the very foundation of the Federation is deeply rooted in both the Iconian's 200,000 years worth of meddling, and the Sphere Builders attempts to destroy The Federation before it can exist, both of which require the Annorax to exist, naturally, time would do everything to make sure you can't get rid of it, because that is how time dictates how itself should unfold.
Your argument is also flawed because its treats time travel shenanigans as unnatural, when they most demonstrably not, as proven by the fact they very universe itself only exist as it does because of them. Specifically, those of the Q.
Just to be an **** here. The T'kon got wiped out 400,000 years before the Iconians did. The Iconian's fall would have had zero impact on them either way. They were LONG dead.
you know, comign back to perpetrate some good old fashioned genocide on people who had nothing to do with what happened to them except trying to help.
Actually, the Iconians never desired to genocide the galaxy. L'Miren even calls T'Ket out on her overly aggressive stance towards the other races by saying there is no point in ruling a galaxy of ghosts. The Iconians only ever wanted to subjugate the various species of the galaxy, which is why they made no effort to outright exterminate any species, despite the fact they very easily could. Even the Romulans, who they hated so much because of Sela, were allowed to live.
There is also something else you fail to consider. Throughout Trek canon, and even in-game, we see various entities such as the Q, the Prophets, and even the Guardian of Forever, who, if its word can be trusted, is the literal manifestation of time itself, help the mortal races fix problems within the timeline, and between the various dimensions. All of them have proven entirely willing to help restore the universe to what it should be. Despite all this however, absolutely none of them see anything wrong with the series of events caused by the Annorax's existence, including the Iconian War, and make no effort to undo any of it. In fact, in the old "State of Q" mission, Q helped us stop the Iconians from manipulating the Borg in the past to destroy the Federation long before it could create the Annorax and cause all of this in the first place. It's almost like... they know the entire universe is based on temporal hoo-ha, and even THEY work to keeping the right amount of temporal hoo-ha going on.
If you hypothesis is correct, then there is no point opposing what patrick and starswordc propose, because time would reverse their actions anyway.
I don't like the idea of self healing time and alternate realities. Nothing we ever do would matter if those things are true. That's not a great idea for a game / MMO which is somewhat dependent on immersion and the idea that your actions matter.
To me it seems that the Galactic Union would come about anyway, that's part of Roddenberry's vision.
> @fleetcaptain5#1134 said: > I don't like the idea of self healing time and alternate realities. Nothing we ever do would matter if those things are true. That's not a great idea for a game / MMO which is somewhat dependent on immersion and the idea that your actions matter. > > To me it seems that the Galactic Union would come about anyway, that's part of Roddenberry's vision.
It's not so much self-healing, so much as that the timeline will attempt to recreate events as best it can. As an example, the coincidence of the Kelvin Enterprise's original helmsman falling ill, a seventeen year old ensign being assigned there, and eventually, Kirk being marooned on the same planet as Montgomery Scott and prime Spock. Events may differ, but certain things are "supposed" to happen. Same as a lot of MMOs, but worth a semi-explanation
And now we've gone from "Time is God" to "Time is the Force": it both manipulates others and is manipulated by others.
We have gone from neither of those, to neither of those. You can keep straw manning these comparisons as much as you want, they are all untrue.
My argument is nothing more than a distillation of your own words, that time acts to correct changes that mortals make to it by manipulating the actions of other mortals. Hence, the Force, which both "controls your actions" and "obeys your commands". The onus is now on you to coherently prove that this is not what you argued and for what reason.
By the way: Your earlier citation of Annorax (the man) from "Year of Hell"? Misrepresents the quotation. In context he simply stated via hyperbole that "it's as if time itself was fighting me" that it was extremely difficult to force time to do what he wanted it to do, since events are so interconnected.
The Lukari were already researching warp ships and were aware of the Ferengi and Tzenkethi. They would have entered the galactic stage either way.
The Lukari had already had warp capable ships since they left Kentar. They CHOSE to remain on their moon world despite having this technology because they didn't want to leave. It was only after the Tholians tried to destroy their sun that they changed their mind. You can claim that they would have entered the galactic stage at some point, but that literally flies in the face of the game's lore.
No, it doesn't. Consider the general behavior of the Ferengi and the Tzenkethi for a minute here. For starters, the Ferengi aren't (all) going to simply abandon a possible market: unlike the Federation, they don't have a Prime Directive. I'll let you work out for yourself what more extensive contact with the Tzenkethi would likely end in.
Isolationism is a very difficult approach to maintain as long as there's the ability of others to travel to you. Ask 19th century Japan how well it worked out.
See, this is the thing you're failing to comprehend. Just as the son cannot be held accountable for crimes committed by the father, the father cannot be held accountable for crimes committed by the son.
That is a nice bit of moral pedantry, but ignores how the world, and indeed the universe, actually works. And how all intelligent mortal creatures act. You can wish for a perfect universe from now till heat death, it wont ever actually exist.
A, that's not merely "moral pedantry", it's a now-commonly accepted legal principle, even one enshrined in the United States Constitution.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
The bolded phrase "Corruption of Blood" can also be termed "collective punishment". It refers to the then-extant idea that family members or associates of the defendant can be held accountable for crimes committed by the defendant. As above, the Constitution explicitly forbids this, restricting punishment for crimes to the people who actually committed them. The Geneva Conventions similarly forbid this, which is one of the common objections raised to certain acts by the State of Israel.
B, how nice of you to conveniently neglect the rest of my argument, that it is morally obligatory to make the effort for that perfect universe to exist. That is the fundamental basis of the Star Trek setting: that we can overcome our animal nature and work to make a better world. It's an idea that goes back at least as far as Charles Darwin, who wrote that the thing that separates humans from lesser animals is our ability to defy our instincts for selfishness and care for the less fortunate among us. Kirk discussed it in "A Taste of Armageddon" when he said to the ruler of Eminiar VII, that, paraphrased, "yes, I'm a barbarian, but I can choose not to act like one. All I have to say is 'No, I decide not to kill today.'"
The Star Trek universe, before VOY and ENT, and now STO butchered it, is one where humanity made the effort, and continues to make the effort. Utopia isn't something that simply exists, it's something that must be continuously struggled for. The timecops with their predetermined vision of the future that requires the unnecessary deaths of billions to exist is a perversion of that.
To borrow another quotation from American jurisprudence:
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Think less "hypocrisy" and more "nuclear disarmament". Eliminating the means for time travel is a net benefit for everyone.
Except you CAN'T eliminate the means of time travel. Even if you remove The Annorax, the Federation knows of 10 other ways to time travel, as do various beings like the Q, and Prophets. Eventually someone somewhere is going to "discover" it again, and there will inevitably be some kind of time war, just a different time war, because that is how all mortal sentient creatures are. All you are doing by removing the Annorx is making a futile attempt to delay the inevitable.
Which is why it, like the goal of the existence of the Star Trek universe itself, is a goal that must be worked for continuously.
So what are you going to do? sit at the very end of time in some anti-time bubble, spending eons of time going back in time to eliminate every means to time travel that ever crops p in some vain attempt to stop it from ever happening to preserve the "natural" timeline? Do you not see how that just makes YOU the biggest disruptor of time to ever exist?
So because it is hard, that makes it not worth doing? Whoever said defying our animal nature was easy?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
If you hypothesis is correct, then there is no point opposing what patrick and starswordc propose, because time would reverse their actions anyway.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
To me it seems that the Galactic Union would come about anyway, that's part of Roddenberry's vision.
> I don't like the idea of self healing time and alternate realities. Nothing we ever do would matter if those things are true. That's not a great idea for a game / MMO which is somewhat dependent on immersion and the idea that your actions matter.
>
> To me it seems that the Galactic Union would come about anyway, that's part of Roddenberry's vision.
It's not so much self-healing, so much as that the timeline will attempt to recreate events as best it can. As an example, the coincidence of the Kelvin Enterprise's original helmsman falling ill, a seventeen year old ensign being assigned there, and eventually, Kirk being marooned on the same planet as Montgomery Scott and prime Spock. Events may differ, but certain things are "supposed" to happen. Same as a lot of MMOs, but worth a semi-explanation
By the way: Your earlier citation of Annorax (the man) from "Year of Hell"? Misrepresents the quotation. In context he simply stated via hyperbole that "it's as if time itself was fighting me" that it was extremely difficult to force time to do what he wanted it to do, since events are so interconnected.
No, it doesn't. Consider the general behavior of the Ferengi and the Tzenkethi for a minute here. For starters, the Ferengi aren't (all) going to simply abandon a possible market: unlike the Federation, they don't have a Prime Directive. I'll let you work out for yourself what more extensive contact with the Tzenkethi would likely end in.
Isolationism is a very difficult approach to maintain as long as there's the ability of others to travel to you. Ask 19th century Japan how well it worked out.
A, that's not merely "moral pedantry", it's a now-commonly accepted legal principle, even one enshrined in the United States Constitution. The bolded phrase "Corruption of Blood" can also be termed "collective punishment". It refers to the then-extant idea that family members or associates of the defendant can be held accountable for crimes committed by the defendant. As above, the Constitution explicitly forbids this, restricting punishment for crimes to the people who actually committed them. The Geneva Conventions similarly forbid this, which is one of the common objections raised to certain acts by the State of Israel.
B, how nice of you to conveniently neglect the rest of my argument, that it is morally obligatory to make the effort for that perfect universe to exist. That is the fundamental basis of the Star Trek setting: that we can overcome our animal nature and work to make a better world. It's an idea that goes back at least as far as Charles Darwin, who wrote that the thing that separates humans from lesser animals is our ability to defy our instincts for selfishness and care for the less fortunate among us. Kirk discussed it in "A Taste of Armageddon" when he said to the ruler of Eminiar VII, that, paraphrased, "yes, I'm a barbarian, but I can choose not to act like one. All I have to say is 'No, I decide not to kill today.'"
The Star Trek universe, before VOY and ENT, and now STO butchered it, is one where humanity made the effort, and continues to make the effort. Utopia isn't something that simply exists, it's something that must be continuously struggled for. The timecops with their predetermined vision of the future that requires the unnecessary deaths of billions to exist is a perversion of that.
To borrow another quotation from American jurisprudence: Which is why it, like the goal of the existence of the Star Trek universe itself, is a goal that must be worked for continuously.
So because it is hard, that makes it not worth doing? Whoever said defying our animal nature was easy?
/deathtotheeditmonster
/furtherdeathtotheeditmonster
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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