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The effects of simulations on Klingon culture (?)
fleetcaptain5
Member Posts: 4,884 Arc User
in Ten Forward
With all the simulations going on in-game (Sompek, Drannuur) I wonder if this will have an impact on Klingon culture and how violent they will be in real life. We have already seen the Klingons becoming more tolerant towards, for example, the Lukari. Rather than conquering them and their technology, they have followed the example of the Federation and cooperated with them.
From the sixth Star Trek movie, we know that there were Klingons who tended to see the Federation as something similar to the Borg: assimilating every culture that joined it, until non of their members could really distinguish themselves anymore. Similarly, any kind of peaceful attitude would already be seen as the Federation managing to spread their values at the cost of Klingon culture (see Discovery's pilot episodes).
Yet, in-game, we have the Klingons accepting peace and diplomacy (albeit in the face of a greater threat most of the time). One could argue that the fact there's always another enemy to be fought has led the Klingons to be more able to be friendly towards others as there's plenty of room for fighting left, but I suppose the fact that we can be violent in simulations, has also made it less necessary to seek out conflict or conquer whenever possible.
A Klingon is only truly Klingon in battle, but just like Hirogen can be truly Hirogen while hunting holographic prey, so can a Klingon be a true Klingon while fighting holographic enemies.
If we're lucky, we'll see a more benevolent type of Klingon become dominant in the Empire. And with 'we' I mean the Federation, which can easier get them to join thanks to these simulated games of violence - so without threatening their culture or offending them with suggesting a fully peaceful way of life.
From the sixth Star Trek movie, we know that there were Klingons who tended to see the Federation as something similar to the Borg: assimilating every culture that joined it, until non of their members could really distinguish themselves anymore. Similarly, any kind of peaceful attitude would already be seen as the Federation managing to spread their values at the cost of Klingon culture (see Discovery's pilot episodes).
Yet, in-game, we have the Klingons accepting peace and diplomacy (albeit in the face of a greater threat most of the time). One could argue that the fact there's always another enemy to be fought has led the Klingons to be more able to be friendly towards others as there's plenty of room for fighting left, but I suppose the fact that we can be violent in simulations, has also made it less necessary to seek out conflict or conquer whenever possible.
A Klingon is only truly Klingon in battle, but just like Hirogen can be truly Hirogen while hunting holographic prey, so can a Klingon be a true Klingon while fighting holographic enemies.
If we're lucky, we'll see a more benevolent type of Klingon become dominant in the Empire. And with 'we' I mean the Federation, which can easier get them to join thanks to these simulated games of violence - so without threatening their culture or offending them with suggesting a fully peaceful way of life.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
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Praxis… becoming puppets of the Founders… becoming puppets of the Undine/Iconians...
I think the evolution of the Klingon culture from TOS up to the 25th century in STO and beyond is nothing but natural.
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Not sure of how much that holo stuff is responsible for but maybe it contributes.
In reality any race that was only into war and fighting as much as they are portrayed would be short lived. I mean they have warp drive, antimatter, science must play a role in their culture yet they are always portrayed as brutish space thugs, more akin to dumb LOTR orcs than any sort of space faring civilisation.
As such I don’t think their development mak s sense compared to real world examples. But it does make for a nice story background I guess. The thuggish warrriors becoming more accepting of others and embracing some diversity.
I'd say that, if nothing else, it helps give a socially acceptable outlet for their cultural tendency towards fighting. They can fight and fight to their heart's content, with no actual losses.
Only thing that would probably end up happening is the Klingon might lose a few holdings that were never especially keen on being vassal states (Gorn would likely pull for their own independent seat in the Federation, as might Ferasan)
Yes, but I think they would want their own representation, simply because, if they aren't fighting the Federation, there's no real reason to ally with the Klingon
Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. Also they would lose the vassaldom of those races, which they might not be as fond of.
maybe they wouldn't be fond of it but on the other hand by joining the federation klingons would in essense gain all the UFP territory (since they would be as much a part of the United Federation of Planets as Earth is).
Klingons aren't stupid the real klingons that is not the massively simplified stereotype klingons who would make the "savage" Hulk (aka the typical practically mindless "Hulk smash" version of the Hulk) seem like a genius, so they're capable of doing cost/benefit calculations and justifying something that's in the end better for the collective whole of klingon species remember "to loose an empire to win a battle is no victory" (ok could have also been "...to win a war..." it's been a while since I last saw DS9).
I'd say it's closer to the UN or NATO. They're allowed their own governance, their own leadership, and their own way of life, but also have to accede to certain rules and laws. So, they can still have the High Council, and still have their ways of life (clan feuds, duels of honor, etc), BUT may have to give up some things, like slavery or raiding passing ships. But in exchange they reap the benefits of being a Federation world. Trade, military aid, etc
I think you're not seeing the whole picture. Joining the Alliance has been nothing but success to the desires of every Klingon. The Alliance was formed due to a military threat. It has undergone several major conflicts already in the short time of its existence. The Iconian War was a big one. The Alliance has stumbled into war after war after war... What's not to like as a Klingon? For one, I'm sure J'mpok is happy because this gives the Empire purpose, focus. Compared to the TNG-era where the long years of peace was the breeding ground for internal strife for the Empire.
The previous generation of Klingons had the Dominion War. The newer generation of Klingons are seeing as much action these days.
The Federation-Klingon War
The Wars of the Alliance, including the Iconian War
The Temporal War
The Tzenkethi
And everything in between! Today is a good day to be a Klingon Warrior! The opportunities for battle have never been so high that most other generations of Klingons would have been envious.
Eh, I meant real fake life. The simulations are fake-fake, the rest of the game outside those simulations is what I called real life but which maybe should be called real fake life if that doesn't make things more confusing...
Very true. However, one day the conflict will stop and I guess that even the Klingons will have to realise sooner or later that they can't keep fighting huge conflicts forever. Or conquer everything and everyone they encounter so that's why I thought the simulations could help transform their culture for when that day arrives and they have to become more peaceful in 'real life' (so outside of the simulations).
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
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> It's already hard STO canon that both the klingon (and the romulans) become full fledged federation members at some point so over time their culture will change to a more open minded and accepting one.
> Not sure of how much that holo stuff is responsible for but maybe it contributes.
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> I think it may have more to do with becoming nearly extinct enough to be contained on a single homeworld some point in the upcoming future-becoming "Just another Federation world" means the Empire is gone. that's not something that's going to go easy.
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> I mean, really t he expectation is similar to t hinking that just because we've helped out Great Britain through two world wars, they're someday going to become the 51st State of the United States, or, that Canadians will one day wake up some morning, and just join the U.S. in a single nation, or that Mexico would.
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> Now take the pride, the cultural devotion, that Britain, France, Russia, Canada, or the U.S. feel, crank it all the way to 11, and then ask, "are they going to abandon their sovereignty to join a bigger nation voluntarily?"
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> The answer's NO. They can LIKE the feds, even emulate them to a point, but the only thing that'll get that level of surrender is something horrific, we're talking at or near genocide levels, happening to the Klingon people to render them as homeless and directionless as the Romulans post-Hobus.
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> Why? because to render them 'just another member of the federation' means the destruction of their entire cultural identity, the shattering and destruction of their ethnic identity, their national pride, and it's got to be WORSE than Praxis to do it.
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> and that means bodycounts in the BILLIONS.
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> I sincerely doubt it works like that.
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> Various episodes suggested that member worlds were left to manage their own governance in accordance with their own traditions and local laws, so long as the general requirements of Federation membership were met.
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> Yes, like Judea under the romans, or India under Great Britain. (Neither of those situations were exactly voluntary btw.) it's like saying "Sure, Canada, you can still keep your election system-but you have a president now and he lives in Washington D.C."
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> The only way that annexation (and that's your most PROBABLE annexation model) is through either massive genocidal disaster or open warfare, particularly when you're talking about cultures as entirely different as Federation and Klingon.
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> I'd say it's closer to the UN or NATO. They're allowed their own governance, their own leadership, and their own way of life, but also have to accede to certain rules and laws. So, they can still have the High Council, and still have their ways of life (clan feuds, duels of honor, etc), BUT may have to give up some things, like slavery or raiding passing ships. But in exchange they reap the benefits of being a Federation world. Trade, military aid, etc
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> except the Federation isn't like the U.N. or NATO. Vulcan doesn't, for example, have their own functioning military (nor does Andoria, Tellar Prime, or Earth). Colonial possessions, likewise, fall under Starfleet or Federation jurisdiction, local governments are subordinate to Federation Law. the relationship is more akin to the British Empire or United States than a Commonwealth or mere political alliance. member races also don't have the freedom to pursue independently their own foreign policies, and Federal law trumps local law (seen several times in TOS, TNG, DS9, etc.)
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> Only NON member races are protected from interference.
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> effectively, it is absolutely the loss of sovereignty. as I said, you can't get from "This alliance is beneficial" to "I want to be ruled from Paris" without lots of people dying.
1). I believe each member world does have their own military, or at least can. The only difference is those militaries are only on their own planet. Bajoran militia, Earth militaries, etc. Starfleet is just the largest and most mobile force, able to travel between planets freely and in charge of the defense of everything between them.
2) Which is functionally how the UN works. UN law overrides local law unless that locality wants trouble. The only distinction is that the Federation actively has a recognized leader, whereas the UN president does not act as such. As to allowing groups to pursue their own foreign policy, they're definitely allowed to, again within the Federation accords.
3) Again not a total loss of sovereignty. It's agreeing to align yourself with a group in order to benefit. Buy the time we see the future, it's been 4 centuries, roughly. Things could very easily have changed. Perhaps the Federation offered a good deal. Maybe the Klingons saw that the Federation had more and more allies, decided another war wouldn't end well, and opted to join. Maybe the old guard started dying down, and more Klingons who knew the Federation rose to positions of power, and the rest saw the benefits.
There's thousands of reasons and ways the two would come together that don't involve deaths
actually even being a non member isn't protection, prime directive or no prime directive. if starfleet want to interfere they will find a way, even if they are supposed to be anywhere near you, see all they time we've seen Federation allied sciencist outright stalking "underdeveloped" planets till it's "acceptable" to interact with them.
and if they can't find an excuse. good thing they have all these insane "rogue" admirals floating around.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
They have slightly more pull because they were one of the founders, but they aren't any more powerful than, say, Cait. Only reason they have so much focus is familiarity, as a bonding agent for the audience (And due to VFX of the day). And they would be giving up only one of those things. That being a small aspect of their culture, the part based on directly invading other planets (also, possibly slavery). They'd keep their history, their structure, their sovereignty, and most of their culture, short of free and militarized expansionism and perhaps slavery (even that MIGHT be allowable, to some extent, via grandfather clause and with restriction) As to the example with Bajor, the key point is that all member worlds do keep their own military forces, but that those militaries are mostly focused on their homeworlds, with Starfleet acting as an interplanetary exploration/defense force.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My character Tsin'xing
Honestly, I think the Klingon are actually quite intelligent. Just they also happen to REALLY LIKE fighting. Think the Vikings of Earth history. Actually quite skilled at things like shipbuilding, metalworking, poetry, and the like. Just also very very keen on raiding and fighting.