Ha! You couldn’t even describe the lockbox system without using the phrase “take the gamble.” If getting liquored up causes people to drop more cash gambling, then what does being 51% of the way to a lobi item do to a lockbox opener?
All previous Lock Box threads regarding the EA controversy have been merged here and the original thread title renamed.
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Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Lock boxes are gambling, in the common English definition of the word.
Lock boxes are not currently illegal unlicensed gambling, as defined by the laws of the US and the other countries in which STO operates.
Bubble gum trading cards have existed since _1950_ (source: wikipedia) -- 67 years of legal gambling.
Magic: The Gathering card packs have existed since 1993. 24 years of legal gambling.
Some people are applying the English definition then pretending that means STO falls under the legal definitions for gambling that must be licensed and regulated. It does not.
Lock boxes are gambling, in the common English definition of the word.
Lock boxes are not currently illegal unlicensed gambling, as defined by the laws of the US and the other countries in which STO operates.
Bubble gum trading cards have existed since _1950_ (source: wikipedia) -- 67 years of legal gambling.
Magic: The Gathering card packs have existed since 1993. 24 years of legal gambling.
Some people are applying the English definition then pretending that means STO falls under the legal definitions for gambling that must be licensed and regulated. It does not.
If one wishes to go strictly by a dictionary definition (and dictionaries are updated regularly, so definitions can change) yes, because it involves the element of chance. If one goes with a more practical definition, such as the negative connotations some of these lobbyists fear, then no, because there is no element of loss. Lock Boxes are more like 'lucky dips' than lottery or gambling cards, playing the slots etc, because as with a lucky dip, everyone opening a Lock Box gets 'something' every time. There are always Lobi Crystals, and there is Other Stuff as well. One time, I got more back from the sale of the stuff inside, than the cost of the key Opening a lockbox/multiple lockboxes for the T6 is not even like playing the slots, where if one pumps enough money into a machine, they eventually pay out a jackpot. It's a lucky dip, where the item received, is always of in-game value
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
This whole thing is stupid. Where's the outrage to ban real-life loot boxes? Nowhere. This is a fake controversy fueled by politicians trying to get money.
There is nothing fake about it.
The outrage has to do with EA pushing the entire concept of loot boxes too far and pushing a full priced pay-2-win game, and doing it with a high profile and globally recognized IP no less.
The only thing politicians may be guilty of here is latching on and trying to pick brownie points, and they have only reared their heads now in the last day or two.
The EA thing is overblown. Last I heard you could still get all the stuff even without opening any boxes. Granted that was ridiculously time consuming, but most characters aren't hard to grind for while some are ridiculous.
Also "pay-2-win"? really? I don't remember hearing about anything in the system that actually makes paid players any more likely to win. Apparently the free characters are as good as the hard to unlock ones.
The main gripe here? Money.
The very fact that there even exists a massive time consuming grind explicitly designed to pressure people into coughing up more money in a full priced release is reprehensible and indefensible, which is something the vast majority of gamers has made quite clear.
If you haven't heard about the pay-2-win aspect of the game then quite frankly you haven't been paying attention.
This isn't like Overwatch where loot boxes only give purely cosmetic items and nothing else. Lootboxes in Battlefront 2 reward cards that buff characters and abilities in various ways, including but not limited to: massive damage reduction and increased rate of fire. Some card abilities even grant damage immunity from certain abilities when fully upgraded.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
Lock boxes are gambling, in the common English definition of the word.
Lock boxes are not currently illegal unlicensed gambling, as defined by the laws of the US and the other countries in which STO operates.
Bubble gum trading cards have existed since _1950_ (source: wikipedia) -- 67 years of legal gambling.
Magic: The Gathering card packs have existed since 1993. 24 years of legal gambling.
Some people are applying the English definition then pretending that means STO falls under the legal definitions for gambling that must be licensed and regulated. It does not.
Yes, the legal definition of "gambling" requires you to get money by doing it. that's the key difference between regulated and unregulated "gambling". Pachinko machines/MTG cards/lockboxes don't give you your money back EVER. Casinos sometimes do. Usually not. The games are mathed by pros so that they are weighted in the house's favor. But the possibility exists to walk out with more money than you walked in with. This possibility does NOT exist here.
Lock boxes are gambling, in the common English definition of the word.
Lock boxes are not currently illegal unlicensed gambling, as defined by the laws of the US and the other countries in which STO operates.
Bubble gum trading cards have existed since _1950_ (source: wikipedia) -- 67 years of legal gambling.
Magic: The Gathering card packs have existed since 1993. 24 years of legal gambling.
Some people are applying the English definition then pretending that means STO falls under the legal definitions for gambling that must be licensed and regulated. It does not.
If one wishes to go strictly by a dictionary definition (and dictionaries are updated regularly, so definitions can change) yes, because it involves the element of chance. If one goes with a more practical definition, such as the negative connotations some of these lobbyists fear, then no, because there is no element of loss. Lock Boxes are more like 'lucky dips' than lottery or gambling cards, playing the slots etc, because as with a lucky dip, everyone opening a Lock Box gets 'something' every time. There are always Lobi Crystals, and there is Other Stuff as well. One time, I got more back from the sale of the stuff inside, than the cost of the key Opening a lockbox/multiple lockboxes for the T6 is not even like playing the slots, where if one pumps enough money into a machine, they eventually pay out a jackpot. It's a lucky dip, where the item received, is always of in-game value
What you keep refusing to get that it totally does not matter if its currently by some legal definition gambling or not. What matters now for a lot of lawmakers and politicians (with angry parents as voters or even parents themselves) is that LBs are games of chance uncontrolled exposed to minors and if its not in the legal controlled definition of gambling now how to get it there.
And while STO might get lucky because it is generous and together with being a PvE centric game one of the very rare cases where F2P is actually viable from beginning to end when/if the laws starting to get rolled out it might get thrown under the bus anyway; and no angry foot-stomping and trying to ridicule this will help. You want to be productive? Help get ideas for Cryptic how STO can succeed without LBs in case they are forced to remove them and do not get any loopholes this time.
The very fact that there even exists a massive time consuming grind explicitly designed to pressure people into coughing up more money in a full priced release is reprehensible and indefensible, which is something the vast majority of gamers has made quite clear.
"Vast majority of gamers" is a bit of a stretch, friend.
EA's failure was that their targeted demographic seemed to be largely unaware or not too familiar with things like time-gated grinds, nor the pay-to-avoid-grind model. Had they been more knowledgeable, they might have responded differently, perhaps with a bit less shock, confusion, and anger. Shock, confusion, and anger, after all, are sadly common responses by the more entitled members of the "gamer sub-culture" when confronted by their own ignorance.
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence. It's gambling under U.S. law just not enforced right now. But E.A. has made a lot of country's now look closer at the practice.
Federal law defines illegal gambling activity as:
Is a violation of the law of the state in which it is conducted; and
(Involves five or more persons who conduct, finance, manage, supervise, direct or own all or part of such business; and
Has been or remains in substantially continuous operation for a period in excess of thirty days, or has a gross revenue of $2,000 in any single day.
The very fact that there even exists a massive time consuming grind explicitly designed to pressure people into coughing up more money in a full priced release is reprehensible and indefensible, which is something the vast majority of gamers has made quite clear.
"Vast majority of gamers" is a bit of a stretch, friend.
EA's failure was that their targeted demographic seemed to be largely unaware or not too familiar with things like time-gated grinds, nor the pay-to-avoid-grind model. Had they been more knowledgeable, they might have responded differently, perhaps with a bit less shock, confusion, and anger. Shock, confusion, and anger, after all, are sadly common responses by the more entitled members of the "gamer sub-culture" when confronted by their own ignorance.
Look around buddy. Virtually every high profile gamer and gaming site/blog is condemning Electronic Arts. As well they should, What EA has done is wrong. pay 2 win, time gates and pay to avoid grind models do not belong in full priced retail releases. Not now, not ever.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
Lock boxes are gambling, in the common English definition of the word.
Lock boxes are not currently illegal unlicensed gambling, as defined by the laws of the US and the other countries in which STO operates.
Bubble gum trading cards have existed since _1950_ (source: wikipedia) -- 67 years of legal gambling.
Magic: The Gathering card packs have existed since 1993. 24 years of legal gambling.
Some people are applying the English definition then pretending that means STO falls under the legal definitions for gambling that must be licensed and regulated. It does not.
If one wishes to go strictly by a dictionary definition (and dictionaries are updated regularly, so definitions can change) yes, because it involves the element of chance. If one goes with a more practical definition, such as the negative connotations some of these lobbyists fear, then no, because there is no element of loss. Lock Boxes are more like 'lucky dips' than lottery or gambling cards, playing the slots etc, because as with a lucky dip, everyone opening a Lock Box gets 'something' every time. There are always Lobi Crystals, and there is Other Stuff as well. One time, I got more back from the sale of the stuff inside, than the cost of the key Opening a lockbox/multiple lockboxes for the T6 is not even like playing the slots, where if one pumps enough money into a machine, they eventually pay out a jackpot. It's a lucky dip, where the item received, is always of in-game value
What you keep refusing to get that it totally does not matter if its currently by some legal definition gambling or not. What matters now for a lot of lawmakers and politicians (with angry parents as voters or even parents themselves) is that LBs are games of chance uncontrolled exposed to minors and if its not in the legal controlled definition of gambling now how to get it there.
And while STO might get lucky because it is generous and together with being a PvE centric game one of the very rare cases where F2P is actually viable from beginning to end when/if the laws starting to get rolled out it might get thrown under the bus anyway; and no angry foot-stomping and trying to ridicule this will help. You want to be productive? Help get ideas for Cryptic how STO can succeed without LBs in case they are forced to remove them and do not get any loopholes this time.
If you'd bothered to actually read my posts, you'd see that I have acknowledged that age verification is a major issue, because it can't be reliably guaranteed
You'd also see, that I have made suggestions for Cryptic for tiered Lock Boxes, rebranding them as Lobi Boxes (themed content, of course) and additional Z-Store unlocks What suggestions have you contibuted?
I also discussed, why the things I would like to see in the Z-Store, such as extra costume unlocks, or cross-faction costume unlocks, won't sell in significant numbers, because most people are still running round Gorn Canyon with fresh-from-the-academy versions of Elisa Flores, Kolez, T'Vrell and Zarva: People who can't even be bothered to customize their boffs, aren't likely to be tempted by additional customization offers.
Rather than thinking you're being clever by challenging people to do things they've already done, why don't you use your time more constructively, and come up with some suggestions yourself. Mug.
*SuckItEditMonster
Post edited by silverlobes#2676 on
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Runescape has something called "Treasure Hunter", was "Squeal of Fortune" prior to 2013. It worked by spending keys, or spins in pre 2013, (members gets 2 a day, non members get 1. More can be earned from various things, like skilling and daily challenges. They also can be purchased in the Game store. It was essentially a 'gamble' feature as well.
The backlash against loot boxes has now reached all the way to Australia: Responding to an inquiry from a redditor named -Caesar, a strategic analyst for the Compliance Division of the Victorian Commission for Gambling and Liquor Regulation said that "what occurs with 'loot boxes' does constitute gambling by the definition of the Victorian Legislation."
"We are currently engaging with interstate and international counterparts to progress wider policy changes and to modernize and inform both Federal and State-based legislation," the analyst, Jarrod Wolfe, wrote. "We take on board responses from the community, such as your concerns, to ensure that our actions are reflective of the risks these products pose as well as the community’s expectation. Watching recent Reddit activity certainly indicates the majority of the gaming community is at odds with decisions made by certain companies."
Wolfe said his focus is on "the more predatory aspects related to 'pay to win'" games, while things like skins and virtual currencies are somewhat more secondary. But he made no bones about where he stands on the matter: "The normalization of gambling vernacular and mechanics targeted at vulnerable persons (minors) is not just morally reprehensible, but is also legally questionable."
He also emphasized the inherent difficulties in regulating loot boxes in games, and acknowledged that "enforcement is probably not an option." He believes that the most effective path to change is through cooperation with other agencies that can bring different kinds of pressure to bear on publishers.
"For instance; if these companies want to include significant elements of gambling in their products then perhaps we should work with the Australian Classification Board to ensure than any product that does that and monetizes it gets an immediate R rating," he wrote. "I could imagine that this would send ripples through the industry and it would support the objectives of the Gambling Legislation to ensure minors are not encouraged to participate in gambling."
The response isn't an official position adopted by the government of Australia or Victoria, but the lack of ambiguity clearly illustrates which way the wind is blowing. All that's up for discussion is what to actually do about it. Every nation has its own laws, and Australia certainly hasn't been reluctant about going its own way in the past, but with similar noises coming out of Europe and North America, it certainly looks like trouble could be brewing.
Wolfe also leveled an unmistakable and rather sinister-sounding warning to anyone in the business hoping that this will all blow over: "It is perhaps unfortunate for these companies that gamers have infiltrated most areas of government; be assured that knowledgeable and interested parties are undertaking a large body of work in relation to issues you noted. And if an avenue of investigation or enforcement is found, then we will most definitely pursue it."
Bold/italicized part nails it.
Not really, it's just virtue-signalling which does absolutely nothing to actually address the issue of restricting content to a suitable audience. It's the same as TRIBBLE. There's nothing stopping a kid clicking the box which says "I am over 18 or age of majority in my region" and looking at the naughties. And then taking a parent's credit card and subscribing to the site. Children lie. Shock horror.
As I said a few pages back, prohibition, as a concept, does nothing to prevent those determined to engage in an activity, from engaging in it.
I also said, there's no Universal guaranteed online age verification system yet in existence. No one (yet) has a DigitalPassport with which to 100% verify themself online.
So virtue-signalling about it being 'bad for the kidz' isn't being constructive at all, it's just stating the obvious, while offering no solution.
One way of trying to limit a minor's access to such content, is via a credit card subscription. But that's not a fool-proof system, because a child can either have their parent set up an account for them, in which case they're still exposed to the content, or steal their parent's card and still be exposed to the content.
I don't believe a credit card subscription would work for STO, because too many people brag on how they never spend any money, but grind everything. Players like this, will not want to pay actual money for something, which they are currently getting for free. The level of generousity in this MMO is fantastic, and it really does mean someone can play for free (providing they're prepared to do the grind work) but that also devalues the content as a commodity, meaning people who aren't paying, will be disinclined to do so in the future. I doubt the devs could remove grind elements without utterly breaking the game, it's not even wise to think about such a possibility.
All the solutions I can think of, like more Z-Store content, is unlikely to draw people who aren't even interested to even modify their starting boffs. Then again, perhaps ships are their thing... So Cryptic needs more ships (and more KDF content)
I hate to say it, but these rulings have very likely killed the game
*SuckItEditMonster
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It is great to attempt to gamble to win a new ship that you really want. But honestly the odds shall always be against you with a 0.5% chance of a decent ship. You get lucky if you get the secondary ships but those are rubbish compared to the high standard of the T6 ships that you could get. Honestly this is just another way Cryptic can get more money out of people who really want a specific ship. For me that ship is the T6 Kelvin Timeline Constitution Class but I have opened hundreads of boxes and spent thousands of zen. A good idea would be to make the top prizes available in the C-Store for larger amounts of zen than the normal T6s. At least you would get a guarantee that you would get the ship you want instead of a mirror universe rip-off.
So the path of least resistance(cheapest solution) for Perfect World would be to simply stop doing business in countries where laws prevent the use of loot boxes. How come no one ever sees this coming?
Well...considering that the dutch law can spread to the rest of the EU...that may not be the best solution at hand. If I remember correctly, the german players are a big part of this game's community. But seriously, this is happening because EA got WAY to greedy. The system they have for BF2 hopnestly is why all this is happening. They wanted to see how far they can push these lootboxes...well I think EA just found the limits. If not...than humanity is more foolish than I ever imagined.
3 Outcomes basically
1) They finda different way to get their revenue without lockboxes
2) The game becomes no longer playable in the countries that forbid lockboxes and survives in some form. (As strong as ever, with less content releases, or on maintanence)
3) The game becomes no longer playble in the countries that forbid lockboxes and cannot survive on that, and closes down.
---
Verifying Age can be more than just pressing a button "Yes, I am over 18". Depending on the wording of the laws and regulations, it could mean you need to identify yourself legally, e.g. provide an ID. Sure, maybe the parents provide the ID and let the kid play, but it's a hurdle to overcome.
And a game with a M or R rating would also suffer from restrictions to advertisement, as you cannot advertise such a game to kids.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Ha! You couldn’t even describe the lockbox system without using the phrase “take the gamble.”
Because I don't know of any other suitable expression in the English Language to use! If there is a better one, please tell me. Criticizing the semantics of a fragment my statement, doesn't mean you've disproved my statement, it just shows you up as a pedant without a valid argument
If getting liquored up causes people to drop more cash gambling, then what does being 51% of the way to a lobi item do to a lockbox opener?
Absolute Strawman, not to mention you're pulling a percentage out of your aft-shuttlebay! I'm not sure what's funnier: That you think you've made a valid point, or that you think it's actually worthy of acknowledgement for rebuttal
I understand that you don't understand that Lock Boxes are not gambling, even though the dictionary definition can be applied to them. Yes, an element of chance is involved. But there is no gambling/wagering involved, because there is no Risk of Loss involved. There is always Something Recieved. The player literally cannot lose. Get it? They may not win the Grand Prize, but they definitely Do Not Lose anything. At the very least, they are converting 125 EC into 3 Lobi Crystals. That's not a 'gamble', that's a lossless currency conversion. Get it?? Seriously, you have no argument
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It is great to attempt to gamble to win a new ship that you really want. But honestly the odds shall always be against you with a 0.5% chance of a decent ship. You get lucky if you get the secondary ships but those are rubbish compared to the high standard of the T6 ships that you could get. Honestly this is just another way Cryptic can get more money out of people who really want a specific ship. For me that ship is the T6 Kelvin Timeline Constitution Class but I have opened hundreads of boxes and spent thousands of zen. A good idea would be to make the top prizes available in the C-Store for larger amounts of zen than the normal T6s. At least you would get a guarantee that you would get the ship you want instead of a mirror universe rip-off.
Apologies for being rude... The best method, is just buy the Zen, buy the keys, sell them on the exchange, and just buy the ship straight off the exchange. I did... And if I can, you can...
But I would actually say don't bother. The KT Constitution really isn't 'all that'... Cosmetically, yeah, it's a beauty, but in terms of performance, it's mediocre. Personally, on pure performance, I'd recomment getting a Yorktown Class, it's way more versatile in boff seating, and can be built up any number of ways.
If you want the Konnie because you like how it looks, then fair enough, but if you're simply looking for a decent ship for hitting content, there are better options (and better ways of getting them than frittering money away opening the Lock Boxes)
On the subject of Mirror Universe ships, to put them down as mirror universe rip-offs does them a great disservice. In my own experience, I've found them to be prefereable to their Prime Universe counterparts, such as the Mirror Combat Cruiser (I think it's called) over the Star Cruiser (I think it's called) as it has more of a focus on tactical seating. The seating on the Mirror Universe Patrol Escort, I find better than the searing on the T6 Hestia Class (again, more focus on tactical seating) and the Mirror Universe Advanced Escort, is a very nice, maneuverable ship... I'd highly recommend any of those to anyone (I prefer flying the MU Patrol Escort to said character's Kelvin Timeline Dreadnought) but of course, to each his own.
*SuckItEditMonster
*BecauseItsThanksgiving
Post edited by silverlobes#2676 on
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I doubt anything will come of it. Were this to happen to video game companies, the law would need to apply to everything from Cracker Jacks to baseball cards to Pokemon cards to breakfast cereal boxes, all of which are marketed to minors.
Except when you buy a card bundle, you do get cards no matter what. Some (or a lot) you may not want and others more or less "precious", but you get them. So, it's different from lootboxes where you can get everything from an emote to the only weapon you'll ever need in the game.
And with Lock Boxes, you get Lobi Crystals no matter what, which can be saved for some pretty nice stuff...
Yeah true..
There's always the Lobi argument to be made.
And I suppose these lockboxes would be a lot more predatory if the ships in them were bound to character on pickup.
I suppose that's their one saving grace, that the grand prizes aren't locked to "gambling", as you can acquire them by other means.
How would people feel about them if the ships were bound on pick up ? I'm sure a lot more people would make a noise about them.
All joking aside though, they're not predatory; They're completely ignorable...
I guess the ship-flippers would get upset that they can no longer use such things as a way of making SpaceWealth, but that's not predation. It's not as if a player has to open said boxes to progress with the game (unlike the Romulan Reputation System) The only people who are going to 'fell victim' to these boxes, are people who, in all honesty, shouldn't be unsupervised on a computer anyway... This is just another example of namby-pamby statism potentially ruining something for everyone, just because a few can't handle it responsibly... I just hope Cryptic are able to work some solutions, so the franchise doesn't lose a game which has run longer than any of the TV series' which spawned it :-\
Exactly!
Lockboxes contain nothing that is key to progression.
Lockboxes contain nothing that is key to DPS or player capability.
Lockboxes contain nothing that is vital to anything in-game.
Lockboxes are NOT legally classed as gambling. They are legally classed as 'Guaranteed Prize Raffles'.
You do not have to buy Lockboxes, and you are not forced to buy them.
Well, Disney didn't completely stop EA regarding the lootboxes and the horrible progression in Battlefront. They just had the micro-transactions put on hold until The Last Jedi is released and brings the bulk of the money, because they don't want the bad publicity of BFII to taint the movie's hype.
You can be sure that once the initial backlash dies out, they'll put the stuff back slightly improved and by the time countries finally settled with something regarding the lootboxes, BFII will be considered obsolete by EA.
It's actually a really beautiful SW game I must say. Kind of a shame some might miss out on it because of negative metacritic reviews by a wretched hive of circle-jerking pitchfork totting bandwagon haters.
A real shame.
Progression isn't as bad as the "Reddit Outrage Mob" would like you to believe.
I played a few hours of multiplayer with a friend the other night and had earned enough credits to buy 3 of the locked heroes.
Played through the campaign (which I enjoyed quite a lot), with the credits I earned there I can buy another 2 or 3 locked heroes.
So I really don't see where people are getting the poor progression argument from. (Actually I do know-Social media circle-Jerks hyping up the issue to fit their narrative).
It's no where near as grim as some of these people are claiming. Anyone who's actually played the game knows that for themselves.
The SW/EA social media controversy is only going to help ticket sales for The Last Jedi. Everyone is looking squarely at SW right now, good or bad, you can't buy advertisement that is this far reaching. And with TLJ just around the corner, this is an unexpected boon to their advertisement campaign.
If the movie is not complete garbage, you'll have a lot of the fence sitters jump into game with Christmas discounts on the horizon. Plus you have to consider that this game has already sold millions of copies in preorders alone. Add to that, it's the only "new" SW game in town for the forseeable future... It only looks good for both the movie and game going forward.
EA has said they won't re introduce the lootcrates until they've been adjusted with the communities concerns in mind. Now, normally I wouldn't trust much of anything that EA says, but with Disney breathing down their neck (and threatening to pull the SW license from EA), there is no way in hell they'll come back without major changes that will be palatable for the majority of the community.
Of course, not everyone will agree on the new lootcrate system (no matter what they do), and you can't please everyone, especially zealot level social media circle-jerks (who haven't even played the game for themselves), but the majority of gamers will swallow them so long as they're not nearly as predatory.
Some of the rumors so far indicate that they're going to go the cosmetic route, and rework the boxes and star card progression.
BUT it's wait and see, and you may be right about them slipping them back in with little change, we'll have to watch this as it unfolds.. But honestly, that would be the stupidest thing EA could do, and another controversy like they had last week about lootcrates will surely lose them the Big Fat Star Wars licence.
In STO's case, they have plenty of time to plan for future legislation.
But my guess is PWE will simply pull the plug on STO if lockboxes/lootcrates are deemed illegal.
Either that or they'll have to rework their pay structure and put everything in the lobi store/C-Store. Or some other similar solution.
As of right now, STO is on life support as far as new content and development is concerned. Their development team is tiny, and nowhere near the size of something like BF2's team.
And if it's too much effort/money to rework the sales structure, prepare for STO 's sunset. PWE won't invest into a game that's already near it's expiration date in terms of player population, and activity.
DOOOOOOOM!
How do you know STO is on life support??
I don't. I was being a little over dramatic I guess
But there's a few things as of late that have caught my attention.
- Episode Missions - Reduced to 3 or 4 a year. (Budget cuts ?)
- A huge drop in DPS channel chatter and team calling since S13 Balance Pass (and it was already in decline before that)
- A decline in zone chat activity at ESD or in Sector space. Could be my perception, but it certainly feels a lot quieter.
- Dead Queues ... but that's nothing new if I'm being fair.
- Less Armada activity/chatter in general since before the S13 Balance Pass
- Constant C-Store sales (granted they've always had a lot of sales over the course of the year, but as of late it seems like there are far more of them in frequency. Could be imagining that though.)
Amongst other things I've noticed over time.
So maybe I'm exaggerating in the last post but by that same token, given what I've listed above I don't think the game is necessarily in a super healthy state.
Also the PWE (co ltd) stock seems to be on a downward trend since 2015, despite a new Trek Series. So I dunno. I'm just looking at many different things that don't give me that much confidence.
"Vast majority of gamers" is a bit of a stretch, friend.
EA's failure was that their targeted demographic seemed to be largely unaware or not too familiar with things like time-gated grinds, nor the pay-to-avoid-grind model. Had they been more knowledgeable, they might have responded differently, perhaps with a bit less shock, confusion, and anger. Shock, confusion, and anger, after all, are sadly common responses by the more entitled members of the "gamer sub-culture" when confronted by their own ignorance.
How about vasy majority of the game's playerbase? That is console gamers who paid for the game...not some PC player doing a F2P game. Lockboxes in F2P PvE games is tolerable. In F2P PvP games it's fine if the items are cosemetics or have no mechanical advantage. However BF2 failed on ALL counts. It's NOT a F2P game. It's a PvP game. And those items in lockboxes give MASSIVE mechanical boosts in those PvP matches. Yeah getting a couple heros you want ain't that bad to unlock. But fully leveling them up? That is another story. This was a pure out and out old school P2W model in a PvP game. And when fans complained that this was a stupid model...because it is...the company instead of listening went on the attack on their customers. EA basically did EVERYTHING wrong in this case. Like royally wrong. And the worst part is that other games may end up suffering...and of the politicans think just a little bit, this could be worse...WAY worse and local game shops can be closed down (because seriously, no Magic = no game shops).
They actually don't give "MASSIVE mechanical boosts in PVP"@coldnapalm, trust me I own SWBF2.
You get things like a "2 sec cooldown reduction on a starcard" or other mundane boosts like that; (ex: your themal detonator will be off cooldown in 16 sec instead of 18sec).
Granted I guess its a "little pay2win." But the Reddit crowd have really blown this whole system way out of proportion.
Like I said in an earlier post... One of the major complaints was heroes being locked, and their cost to unlock them. That unlock cost has been reduced by 75%. And I was able to buy 3 heroes after an hour or 2 of multiplayer.
Darth Vader being the first hero I unlocked.
If you're not a complete noob at FPS games you're still on a relatively level playing field even with the big crystal buyers.
There have been a couple of youtube vids posted already of people destroying other fully upgraded players with no loadouts other then their stock blasters.
The Outrage got way out of control imho as a long time gamer. But I don't really blame people at the same time, because EA has F'd up so much in the past, and people have become very resentful towards them.
And tbh it's one of the prettiest Star Wars games I've ever seen in my life, Sound design is incredible as well. It's really is a shame some people will miss out on it due to misinformation and out of control Reddit Outrage Culture.
I mean... look at these screen caps... I had to stop what I was doing in Campaign mode a dozen times to get screencaps because the game looks so frikken nice. - And I'm not even playing on PS4 Pro. Supposedly looks even better on XBOX and PC. (These are taken on my cell phone so they're not top quality either)
[img][/img]
[img][/img]
A real shame some people are gonna miss out due to misinformation.
Thats funny, yet scores of game reviewers, streamers and youtubers say otherwise, and even have even shown cards that give significant amounts of actual damage reduction, damage buffs and rate of fire buffs. Including cards that even grant immortality when fully upgraded.
Your right though it is gorgeous, but pretty graphics aren't everything, and in fact graphics can actually be "too good" for competitive play in games.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
OK, everyone, let's all calm down. Everyone's got an opinion. You may not agree, but that's ok. No matter the case, or difference of opinion, it doesn't justify attacking, belittling, or name calling, so let's knock all that off and get back to the discussion in a civil manner. Happy Thanksgiving!
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
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"Vast majority of gamers" is a bit of a stretch, friend.
EA's failure was that their targeted demographic seemed to be largely unaware or not too familiar with things like time-gated grinds, nor the pay-to-avoid-grind model. Had they been more knowledgeable, they might have responded differently, perhaps with a bit less shock, confusion, and anger. Shock, confusion, and anger, after all, are sadly common responses by the more entitled members of the "gamer sub-culture" when confronted by their own ignorance.
How about vasy majority of the game's playerbase? That is console gamers who paid for the game...not some PC player doing a F2P game. Lockboxes in F2P PvE games is tolerable. In F2P PvP games it's fine if the items are cosemetics or have no mechanical advantage. However BF2 failed on ALL counts. It's NOT a F2P game. It's a PvP game. And those items in lockboxes give MASSIVE mechanical boosts in those PvP matches. Yeah getting a couple heros you want ain't that bad to unlock. But fully leveling them up? That is another story. This was a pure out and out old school P2W model in a PvP game. And when fans complained that this was a stupid model...because it is...the company instead of listening went on the attack on their customers. EA basically did EVERYTHING wrong in this case. Like royally wrong. And the worst part is that other games may end up suffering...and of the politicans think just a little bit, this could be worse...WAY worse and local game shops can be closed down (because seriously, no Magic = no game shops).
They actually don't give "MASSIVE mechanical boosts in PVP"@coldnapalm, trust me I own SWBF2.
You get things like a "2 sec cooldown reduction on a starcard" or other mundane boosts like that; (ex: your themal detonator will be off cooldown in 16 sec instead of 18sec).
Granted I guess its a "little pay2win." But the Reddit crowd have really blown this whole system way out of proportion.
Like I said in an earlier post... One of the major complaints was heroes being locked, and their cost to unlock them. That unlock cost has been reduced by 75%. And I was able to buy 3 heroes after an hour or 2 of multiplayer.
Darth Vader being the first hero I unlocked.
If you're not a complete noob at FPS games you're still on a relatively level playing field even with the big crystal buyers.
There have been a couple of youtube vids posted already of people destroying other fully upgraded players with no loadouts other then their stock blasters.
The Outrage got way out of control imho as a long time gamer. But I don't really blame people at the same time, because EA has F'd up so much in the past, and people have become very resentful towards them.
And tbh it's one of the prettiest Star Wars games I've ever seen in my life, Sound design is incredible as well. It's really is a shame some people will miss out on it due to misinformation and out of control Reddit Outrage Culture.
I'm sorry...but did you just say that a more than 10% cooldown reduction in a PvP game was not that big of an advantage?!? And had the gaul to claim that if you didn't think that was a pretty big advantage that it is because you are noob?!? BWHAHAHAHA. Yeah if you think cooldown reduction is not a big advantage, I'm sorry, but you ARE the noob. And yes a good player can take out a bad player using base gear. I can out DPS the bad players in this game using common vendor gear. So are you gonna claim that the all those shiney epic fleet/lobi/crafted gear does not give a massive advantage in this game? No, it just means that terrible players will be terrible. Also there are more that just a 2 second cooldown on grenades when fully upgrading some of the heros that is even WAY more P2W than a pretty hefty cooldown reduction advantage (for a PvP game).
And yes they did eventaully reduce the grind significantly when they had to pull out their way to immediately monitize it so you have a SEMI working game now. I say semi because now it is a play x number of hours to grind out yourself for PvP game...and that is not good either. Better than P2W sure...but it is a bad design in anycase (look at STO for a prime example of why).
And I don't care if the game is the prettiest thing EVER. I'm not going to give EA money for behaving badly and being told no by Disney before they did the rightish thing. I'm voting with the only thing a corporation cares about...money. And no, it's not JUST this game...I am voting no over what they did by not getting any more of their games. You can look at the pretty shiney lights if you want...I don't appreciate a vast array of things I enjoy getting threatened because EA decided to get super greedy.
^^^This... Two seconds cooldown reduction is a massive difference in an environment measured in nanoseconds. I now (EC balance allowing) only use Kelvin Timeline photon torpedoes as the primary torpedo. Why? Four second reload rather than six seconds. Those two seconds, make a hell of a difference, especially on a timed instance, such as Flying Blind/Operation Gamma... Might not sound like much, but it's noticeable...
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
The writing is on the wall, regardless of peoples' individual stances on the subject, Cryptic should really start looking into a replacement for the current system. Maybe they should try going the Star Citizen route and replace crate ships with $200 ships.
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Lock boxes are not currently illegal unlicensed gambling, as defined by the laws of the US and the other countries in which STO operates.
Bubble gum trading cards have existed since _1950_ (source: wikipedia) -- 67 years of legal gambling.
Magic: The Gathering card packs have existed since 1993. 24 years of legal gambling.
Some people are applying the English definition then pretending that means STO falls under the legal definitions for gambling that must be licensed and regulated. It does not.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
The very fact that there even exists a massive time consuming grind explicitly designed to pressure people into coughing up more money in a full priced release is reprehensible and indefensible, which is something the vast majority of gamers has made quite clear.
If you haven't heard about the pay-2-win aspect of the game then quite frankly you haven't been paying attention.
This isn't like Overwatch where loot boxes only give purely cosmetic items and nothing else. Lootboxes in Battlefront 2 reward cards that buff characters and abilities in various ways, including but not limited to: massive damage reduction and increased rate of fire. Some card abilities even grant damage immunity from certain abilities when fully upgraded.
My character Tsin'xing
What you keep refusing to get that it totally does not matter if its currently by some legal definition gambling or not. What matters now for a lot of lawmakers and politicians (with angry parents as voters or even parents themselves) is that LBs are games of chance uncontrolled exposed to minors and if its not in the legal controlled definition of gambling now how to get it there.
And while STO might get lucky because it is generous and together with being a PvE centric game one of the very rare cases where F2P is actually viable from beginning to end when/if the laws starting to get rolled out it might get thrown under the bus anyway; and no angry foot-stomping and trying to ridicule this will help. You want to be productive? Help get ideas for Cryptic how STO can succeed without LBs in case they are forced to remove them and do not get any loopholes this time.
Also I don't see any reason to think this will go anywhere. "Moral outrage" doesn't get that far in politics.
My character Tsin'xing
"Vast majority of gamers" is a bit of a stretch, friend.
EA's failure was that their targeted demographic seemed to be largely unaware or not too familiar with things like time-gated grinds, nor the pay-to-avoid-grind model. Had they been more knowledgeable, they might have responded differently, perhaps with a bit less shock, confusion, and anger. Shock, confusion, and anger, after all, are sadly common responses by the more entitled members of the "gamer sub-culture" when confronted by their own ignorance.
Federal law defines illegal gambling activity as:
Is a violation of the law of the state in which it is conducted; and
(Involves five or more persons who conduct, finance, manage, supervise, direct or own all or part of such business; and
Has been or remains in substantially continuous operation for a period in excess of thirty days, or has a gross revenue of $2,000 in any single day.
Look around buddy. Virtually every high profile gamer and gaming site/blog is condemning Electronic Arts. As well they should, What EA has done is wrong. pay 2 win, time gates and pay to avoid grind models do not belong in full priced retail releases. Not now, not ever.
If you'd bothered to actually read my posts, you'd see that I have acknowledged that age verification is a major issue, because it can't be reliably guaranteed
You'd also see, that I have made suggestions for Cryptic for tiered Lock Boxes, rebranding them as Lobi Boxes (themed content, of course) and additional Z-Store unlocks
I also discussed, why the things I would like to see in the Z-Store, such as extra costume unlocks, or cross-faction costume unlocks, won't sell in significant numbers, because most people are still running round Gorn Canyon with fresh-from-the-academy versions of Elisa Flores, Kolez, T'Vrell and Zarva: People who can't even be bothered to customize their boffs, aren't likely to be tempted by additional customization offers.
Rather than thinking you're being clever by challenging people to do things they've already done, why don't you use your time more constructively, and come up with some suggestions yourself. Mug.
*SuckItEditMonster
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
No biggy for me.
As I said a few pages back, prohibition, as a concept, does nothing to prevent those determined to engage in an activity, from engaging in it.
I also said, there's no Universal guaranteed online age verification system yet in existence. No one (yet) has a DigitalPassport with which to 100% verify themself online.
So virtue-signalling about it being 'bad for the kidz' isn't being constructive at all, it's just stating the obvious, while offering no solution.
One way of trying to limit a minor's access to such content, is via a credit card subscription. But that's not a fool-proof system, because a child can either have their parent set up an account for them, in which case they're still exposed to the content, or steal their parent's card and still be exposed to the content.
I don't believe a credit card subscription would work for STO, because too many people brag on how they never spend any money, but grind everything. Players like this, will not want to pay actual money for something, which they are currently getting for free. The level of generousity in this MMO is fantastic, and it really does mean someone can play for free (providing they're prepared to do the grind work) but that also devalues the content as a commodity, meaning people who aren't paying, will be disinclined to do so in the future. I doubt the devs could remove grind elements without utterly breaking the game, it's not even wise to think about such a possibility.
All the solutions I can think of, like more Z-Store content, is unlikely to draw people who aren't even interested to even modify their starting boffs. Then again, perhaps ships are their thing... So Cryptic needs more ships (and more KDF content)
I hate to say it, but these rulings have very likely killed the game
*SuckItEditMonster
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
1) They finda different way to get their revenue without lockboxes
2) The game becomes no longer playable in the countries that forbid lockboxes and survives in some form. (As strong as ever, with less content releases, or on maintanence)
3) The game becomes no longer playble in the countries that forbid lockboxes and cannot survive on that, and closes down.
---
Verifying Age can be more than just pressing a button "Yes, I am over 18". Depending on the wording of the laws and regulations, it could mean you need to identify yourself legally, e.g. provide an ID. Sure, maybe the parents provide the ID and let the kid play, but it's a hurdle to overcome.
And a game with a M or R rating would also suffer from restrictions to advertisement, as you cannot advertise such a game to kids.
Absolute Strawman, not to mention you're pulling a percentage out of your aft-shuttlebay!
I understand that you don't understand that Lock Boxes are not gambling, even though the dictionary definition can be applied to them. Yes, an element of chance is involved. But there is no gambling/wagering involved, because there is no Risk of Loss involved. There is always Something Recieved. The player literally cannot lose. Get it? They may not win the Grand Prize, but they definitely Do Not Lose anything. At the very least, they are converting 125 EC into 3 Lobi Crystals. That's not a 'gamble', that's a lossless currency conversion. Get it?? Seriously, you have no argument
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
But I would actually say don't bother. The KT Constitution really isn't 'all that'... Cosmetically, yeah, it's a beauty, but in terms of performance, it's mediocre. Personally, on pure performance, I'd recomment getting a Yorktown Class, it's way more versatile in boff seating, and can be built up any number of ways.
If you want the Konnie because you like how it looks, then fair enough, but if you're simply looking for a decent ship for hitting content, there are better options
On the subject of Mirror Universe ships, to put them down as mirror universe rip-offs does them a great disservice. In my own experience, I've found them to be prefereable to their Prime Universe counterparts, such as the Mirror Combat Cruiser (I think it's called) over the Star Cruiser (I think it's called) as it has more of a focus on tactical seating. The seating on the Mirror Universe Patrol Escort, I find better than the searing on the T6 Hestia Class (again, more focus on tactical seating) and the Mirror Universe Advanced Escort, is a very nice, maneuverable ship... I'd highly recommend any of those to anyone (I prefer flying the MU Patrol Escort to said character's Kelvin Timeline Dreadnought) but of course, to each his own.
*SuckItEditMonster
*BecauseItsThanksgiving
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I don't. I was being a little over dramatic I guess
But there's a few things as of late that have caught my attention.
- Episode Missions - Reduced to 3 or 4 a year. (Budget cuts ?)
- A huge drop in DPS channel chatter and team calling since S13 Balance Pass (and it was already in decline before that)
- A decline in zone chat activity at ESD or in Sector space. Could be my perception, but it certainly feels a lot quieter.
- Dead Queues ... but that's nothing new if I'm being fair.
- Less Armada activity/chatter in general since before the S13 Balance Pass
- Constant C-Store sales (granted they've always had a lot of sales over the course of the year, but as of late it seems like there are far more of them in frequency. Could be imagining that though.)
Amongst other things I've noticed over time.
So maybe I'm exaggerating in the last post but by that same token, given what I've listed above I don't think the game is necessarily in a super healthy state.
Also the PWE (co ltd) stock seems to be on a downward trend since 2015, despite a new Trek Series. So I dunno. I'm just looking at many different things that don't give me that much confidence.
Maybe everything is A-Okay though.
They actually don't give "MASSIVE mechanical boosts in PVP" @coldnapalm, trust me I own SWBF2.
You get things like a "2 sec cooldown reduction on a starcard" or other mundane boosts like that; (ex: your themal detonator will be off cooldown in 16 sec instead of 18sec).
Granted I guess its a "little pay2win." But the Reddit crowd have really blown this whole system way out of proportion.
Like I said in an earlier post... One of the major complaints was heroes being locked, and their cost to unlock them. That unlock cost has been reduced by 75%. And I was able to buy 3 heroes after an hour or 2 of multiplayer.
Darth Vader being the first hero I unlocked.
If you're not a complete noob at FPS games you're still on a relatively level playing field even with the big crystal buyers.
There have been a couple of youtube vids posted already of people destroying other fully upgraded players with no loadouts other then their stock blasters.
The Outrage got way out of control imho as a long time gamer. But I don't really blame people at the same time, because EA has F'd up so much in the past, and people have become very resentful towards them.
And tbh it's one of the prettiest Star Wars games I've ever seen in my life, Sound design is incredible as well. It's really is a shame some people will miss out on it due to misinformation and out of control Reddit Outrage Culture.
I mean... look at these screen caps... I had to stop what I was doing in Campaign mode a dozen times to get screencaps because the game looks so frikken nice. - And I'm not even playing on PS4 Pro. Supposedly looks even better on XBOX and PC. (These are taken on my cell phone so they're not top quality either)
[img][/img]
[img][/img]
A real shame some people are gonna miss out due to misinformation.
Your right though it is gorgeous, but pretty graphics aren't everything, and in fact graphics can actually be "too good" for competitive play in games.
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"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth