If any real traction gets going on this Stateside, expect Hasbro to gear up in opposition (the same laws, in order to target such innocuous things as STO lockboxes, would of necessity have to be so broad that they would outlaw Magic: the Gathering booster packs, with their random cards that may or may not favor a particular player). In fact, any company producing CCGs would probably have to mobilize on this, simply to protect their product. (Steve Jackson Games, for instance, recently started production and sales of a Munchkin CCG. It wouldn't be Jackson's first time fighting the government, however - the company already had to deal with a Secret Service raid over their GURPS Cyberpunk sourcebook back in the '80s, when someone got the weird idea that it was some kind of cyberterrorism instruction pamphlet...)
So EA added loot boxes to BF2 and now the sh@t hit the fan. A lot of Country's are calling them gambling are you going to remove them from your game now?
Gentlemen, gambling is a serious thing (to say the least), and I don't think that the men of the Dutch Gambling Authority are a bunch of fools.
If they say "lockbox = gambling" maybe they could be right, isn't it?
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,565Community Moderator
The way STO's works its more like a TCG booster pack. Fun, can get stuff, but not necessary. The reason BF2's boxes were so controvertial is because EA was being greedy again and tried to exploit a system to rake in the money at the expense of a franchise they know people will pay for.
Its the implimentation of the system that is the thing. Team Fortress 2 has had loot crates for years. However just about everything in said crates is ALSO craftable in game as well as available as random drops and available in their store to be bought outright. Meaning you don't have to spend money or you can spend money to get exactly what you want. The ONLY thing that sets their crate loot apart from drops and store is cosmetic. No performance enhancement whatsoever.
What EA tried to do was put stuff that could give people an advantage in the box, and pretty much lock it behind said box. At least as far as I know.
Lockboxes, when implimented correctly, are a decent suppliment to income, especially for a F2P game. Its when you have to not only buy the game, but spend money to stay competative in a PvP environment where it can start to be a problem.
There's enough variety in STO's mechanics and gear that you do not have to "pay to win" by opening Lock Boxes. While the lockbox ships sometimes have *slightly* above average stats, the advantages or flaws of any one ship are often meaningless in the hands of a good player. Battlefront 2, from the looks of things, took a very different approach by putting a lot of must-have gear and bonuses in loot boxes.
Also worth noting that, if STO did lose the lockboxes, it would likely impact the longevity of the game and production of new content, unless the revenue stream was replaced.
Gentlemen, gambling is a serious thing (to say the least), and I don't think that the men of the Dutch Gambling Authority are a bunch of fools.
If they say "lockbox = gambling" maybe they could be right, isn't it?
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It's been said for a long time, all it'll take to end the loot box thing is for a developer to go too far too quickly. That too quickly has proven to be:
-A $60 game
-Tiered special editions
-Paid DLC
-Season pass
-Additional DLC not covered by the season pass
-Loot boxes with pay to win content
-Also initially with exclusive loot box content
-Under license from an outside company that had already come into conflict with said publisher for their treatment of the generous terms of their exclusive deal
STO has two of those, and it's pretty hard to compare the situation.
What EA did might be what finally ruins it for everyone, like the kompu gacha ban in Japan, it was tolerated for a very long time until somebody took it too far without normalizing the baby steps first, and then everybody had to stop doing it. But really? Their biggest enemy in this is Disney, and Disney yanking the license will happen before any laws happen, and the problem will simply go away, and we'll be back to normalizing the baby steps like we've been doing for the last ten years.
Besides some EU countries which could lead to some kind of EU wide thing now also Hawaii stomped hard on this topic and allegedly Australia. While STOs LB system is tame compared to other EA in their boundless greed might have opened Pandoras Lootbox here and what steps out might not be really judgmental about the fine-print differences because the basic problem is, no matter the legal definition of gambling or not, its games of chances kids have unregulated access to.
This whole thing is stupid. Where's the outrage to ban real-life loot boxes? Nowhere. This is a fake controversy fueled by politicians trying to get money.
There is nothing fake about it.
The outrage has to do with EA pushing the entire concept of loot boxes too far and pushing a full priced pay-2-win game, and doing it with a high profile and globally recognized IP no less.
The only thing politicians may be guilty of here is latching on and trying to pick brownie points, and they have only reared their heads now in the last day or two.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
> @hevach said:
> It's been said for a long time, all it'll take to end the loot box thing is for a developer to go too far too quickly. That too quickly has proven to be:
>
> -A $60 game
> -Tiered special editions
> -Paid DLC
> -Season pass
> -Additional DLC not covered by the season pass
> -Loot boxes with pay to win content
> -Also initially with exclusive loot box content
> -Under license from an outside company that had already come into conflict with said publisher for their treatment of the generous terms of their exclusive deal
>
>
> STO has two of those, and it's pretty hard to compare the situation.
>
> What EA did might be what finally ruins it for everyone, like the kompu gacha ban in Japan, it was tolerated for a very long time until somebody took it too far without normalizing the baby steps first, and then everybody had to stop doing it. But really? Their biggest enemy in this is Disney, and Disney yanking the license will happen before any laws happen, and the problem will simply go away, and we'll be back to normalizing the baby steps like we've been doing for the last ten years.
There is no pay 2 win in STO, lockbox or otherwise. There are a few things that edge into "pay for a small advantage" but absolutely none of that is required and players can easily achieve those same levels of performance without any of that stuff.
The 'problem', which the nambies are claiming to be concerned about, is that the rush of excitement from opening the Lock Boxes, may be too addictive for some (people with poor impulse control/addictive personality traits etc) and may cost kids money/'get them into' gambling. This is one of those Big Beother-esque situations of "I say it's for your own good..." but really, it just messes everything up for everyone else... The easiest way around the issue of kids playing, I discussed in the other threads: Without a foolproof ID system, there's no way to ensure that the person clicking the "I am over 18" box actually is... Unless they were to go down the credit card/subscription route... And personally, I don't think people who grind everything, will be willing to pay a subscription. I don't think Lock Boxes are gambling at all, but my concern, is that Industry-wide changes in legislation, would make the game unprofitable, and thus force Cryptic to pull the plug... I don't want to see that, but if this Boxes=Gambling lunacy gains too much traction, sadly, I could see it happening
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Interestingly, when someone buys some digital thingamaby with wallet monies, there is a period of time where there is an obligation to make available the service of using that thing. The cost of providing and maintaining the service for that obligated period of time is the "value" returned in exchange for the monies, and the difference is taxed accordingly.
The big question is whether the purchase of something like keys creates an obligation for providing and maintaining the service until: a) the keys themselves are all consumed or traded; b) the resultant products created by the keys (ships, items, etc) are reasonably "used up"; or c) some other condition (arbitrary fixed time period, when the player quits, when the game shut down, etc)?
You do know we will be getting a new Lockbox within two weeks. Infinity coming out, Son'a added to Infinity a couple of weeks ago. All signs point to a new one. Discovery?
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
This whole thing is stupid. Where's the outrage to ban real-life loot boxes? Nowhere. This is a fake controversy fueled by politicians trying to get money.
There is nothing fake about it.
The outrage has to do with EA pushing the entire concept of loot boxes too far and pushing a full priced pay-2-win game, and doing it with a high profile and globally recognized IP no less.
The only thing politicians may be guilty of here is latching on and trying to pick brownie points, and they have only reared their heads now in the last day or two.
It's pretty much (potentially) the same as when Axanar went too far, and CBS pulled the rug from under everyone: EA have gone too far, and thus the whole games industry may be affected :-\
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
This whole thing is stupid. Where's the outrage to ban real-life loot boxes? Nowhere. This is a fake controversy fueled by politicians trying to get money.
There is nothing fake about it.
The outrage has to do with EA pushing the entire concept of loot boxes too far and pushing a full priced pay-2-win game, and doing it with a high profile and globally recognized IP no less.
The only thing politicians may be guilty of here is latching on and trying to pick brownie points, and they have only reared their heads now in the last day or two.
The EA thing is overblown. Last I heard you could still get all the stuff even without opening any boxes. Granted that was ridiculously time consuming, but most characters aren't hard to grind for while some are ridiculous.
Also "pay-2-win"? really? I don't remember hearing about anything in the system that actually makes paid players any more likely to win. Apparently the free characters are as good as the hard to unlock ones.
Anyway, I don't know why people have such a hard time actually thinking about this. Would a guaranteed prize make a slot machine legal? Or a lottery ticket? It would not. So it doesnt make other gambling legal either.
What makes vidoe game gambling like in Fallout New Vegas or STO legal is that it isnt gambling for money.
A couple of things;
It's important to note that gambling is not universally illegal. More than half US states offer legal gambling of some kind and that number continues to grow every year. IIRC there are around 25 countries throughout the world where gambling is legal with more allowing it every year. Granted it isn't promoted to minors.
I also tend to agree with the response from the ESRB in that loot boxes are more akin to collectible card games. This is nothing new as the practice has been in many things from Cracker Jack boxes to baseball cards to breakfast cereal boxes.
Well,, also, minors are less likely to have money. That's something worth taking into account.
Lockboxes have been in STO since before Disney owned Star Wars, and despite the claims of uninformed people they do not fall under any legal definition of gambling recognized in the US.
Those are valid concerns. I clearly can't speak for everyone but I will admit that I am one of those "addictive types". I drank for years, the last year of which I had regular alchohol blackouts. I was able to put that to bed some time ago. I smoke, and freely admit I can't quit anytime I want. I'm also addicted to caffeine. Oddly enough despite living in Las Vegas for a time I was never a gambler.
I've struggled with other things as well, including gaming (anytime I start reminding myself of Codex from the Guild I know its time for a break). I have been able to handle these issues fairly well in regards to how I now approach lockboxes but yeah at one point I dropped hundreds of dollars for 1 ship. Then did it again for another ship.
Nowadays I restrict my spending on STO to my sub fee, anything else I want to have, such as lockbox/lobi ships, zen ships, whatever comes from EC, Dill, or my Zen stipend, or some combination of all 3 working in concert. It works for me, but yeah others may struggle more. The same is true of players from pretty much every MMO as well, and STO does have a great F2P system despite what some people say. I dunno what the ultimate answer is (42) but I do not think removing lockboxes is it.
Oh for sure, I can be like that myself... I never smoked, because my dad did, and I rejected it as a rejection of him. I drink infrequently, and never gamble, but a couple nights back, I did drink the better part of two litres of RedBull while running Mirror Invasion while the theme to Airwolf blasted... The Dreadnought which I bought for a now-semi locked character, I paid cash for, in a Key Spend which netted about a billion EC (on a character who now, can only run Deep Space Encounters, Nimbus and Kobalistan groundzones, and face gankings in Ker'rat thanks to an overflow bag glitch) But, I continued spending on other characters as well... A Konnie on one, a Lot of fleet gear on another to make an Avenger a flying cannon, as well as other crazy spends... But, I always know when to step back, only spend what I can afford to spend, and the boxes, I only ever opened for the Lobi for the Herald staff (which I never really use, as they're too slow for my liking) and the Temporal Jumpsuits for my Romulan.
I think the issue (which isn't even an issue) is that The Suits are saying that people might not know when to step back... Might get addicted/go broke etc, and then use that sanctimonious 'oh we're only thinking of you...' presumption, to then push through stupid changes, regardless of how it might affect other people, who wouldn't be affected by what they claim to be concerned about anyway, or the industry itself... I just hope the notion gets quashed, before it goes too far, and really screws the industry as a whole, and pushes This game into a corner where it's no longer financially viable... I think there are definitely options which could be brought in to replace the cash from buying keys, but, I'm not 100% they'd make money... Sure, I'd be willing to shell out on a pack so my Fed Romulan could actually wear a Starfleet uniform, but, all the time I see people running round Nimbus with Stock Away teams, I can tell that the market for such 'optional extras' is pretty niche... I mean, if someone can't even be bothered to alter their Starting Crew in any way, there's no way they're going to pay for Extra Shinies, and that lack of extra income, that I can see being the death of the game :-\
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Some of you are tripping over yourselves and performing amazing feats of logic to argue that people aren’t gambling on lockboxes trying to get rare and valuable ships. It’s clearly gambling, lobi is like free liquor at a casino, and nobody opens a lockbox hoping to score a weapon pack.
Some of you are tripping over yourselves and performing amazing feats of logic to argue that people aren’t gambling on lockboxes trying to get rare and valuable ships. It’s clearly gambling, lobi is like free liquor at a casino, and nobody opens a lockbox hoping to score a weapon pack.
No, it's Not gambling! It's not a gamble, because there is ZERO POSSIBILITY OF LOSS. Opening a Lock Box will ALWAYS deliver 3 Lobi Crystals. Is there a chance, a possibility, an opportunity to gain something better? Sure. But it is not a gamble. Can the sophistry. Free liquor at a casino doesn't get the receiver anything other than drunk, the need to urinate, and maybe married to their best friend. Liquor isn't a prize. If someone's at a casino, and they're given free drinks, then hey, that's awesome, just like getting free drinks in First Class is awesome, but that's not a gambled prize, it's receiving hospitality. Lobi, on the other hand, can be saved, and used to buy genuinely useful and or cool items. How my Romulan's backside looks in her Temporal Jumpsuit, was worth the price paid...
Why anyone opens a Lock Box is their business. If they want to run the chance of actually getting the T6 prize, then that's their choice. They probably won't get it, and if they think they will, then they're either an idiot, or they're lying to themself. If they want to 'take the gamble' (because English doesn't really have any other suitable expression) then that's Up To Them. But it isn't gambling because even if they don't win what they want, they still get something in return. I've opened lock boxes for the weapons, the traits, and whatever else came out which I could then shift on the exchange for EC.
While I might have had some glimmer of the thought that it would be nice If I was to win the T6 ship, I NEVER had any serious expectation of doing so, and anyone who does, shouldn't have unmonitored computer access, because they lack the capacity to grasp the concepts involved.
If you want to go strictly by the dictionary definition, fine... That's the Letter of the Law... The distinction here is the Spirit of the Law... It's not gambling, it's not mandatory, it's not predatory, but it is what brings in the cash for Cryptic. No cash flow for them, no game for us... :-\
*SuckItEditMonster
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
If they say "lockbox = gambling" maybe they could be right, isn't it?
Its the implimentation of the system that is the thing. Team Fortress 2 has had loot crates for years. However just about everything in said crates is ALSO craftable in game as well as available as random drops and available in their store to be bought outright. Meaning you don't have to spend money or you can spend money to get exactly what you want. The ONLY thing that sets their crate loot apart from drops and store is cosmetic. No performance enhancement whatsoever.
What EA tried to do was put stuff that could give people an advantage in the box, and pretty much lock it behind said box. At least as far as I know.
Lockboxes, when implimented correctly, are a decent suppliment to income, especially for a F2P game. Its when you have to not only buy the game, but spend money to stay competative in a PvP environment where it can start to be a problem.
Also worth noting that, if STO did lose the lockboxes, it would likely impact the longevity of the game and production of new content, unless the revenue stream was replaced.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
-A $60 game
-Tiered special editions
-Paid DLC
-Season pass
-Additional DLC not covered by the season pass
-Loot boxes with pay to win content
-Also initially with exclusive loot box content
-Under license from an outside company that had already come into conflict with said publisher for their treatment of the generous terms of their exclusive deal
STO has two of those, and it's pretty hard to compare the situation.
What EA did might be what finally ruins it for everyone, like the kompu gacha ban in Japan, it was tolerated for a very long time until somebody took it too far without normalizing the baby steps first, and then everybody had to stop doing it. But really? Their biggest enemy in this is Disney, and Disney yanking the license will happen before any laws happen, and the problem will simply go away, and we'll be back to normalizing the baby steps like we've been doing for the last ten years.
There is nothing fake about it.
The outrage has to do with EA pushing the entire concept of loot boxes too far and pushing a full priced pay-2-win game, and doing it with a high profile and globally recognized IP no less.
The only thing politicians may be guilty of here is latching on and trying to pick brownie points, and they have only reared their heads now in the last day or two.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
The big question is whether the purchase of something like keys creates an obligation for providing and maintaining the service until: a) the keys themselves are all consumed or traded; b) the resultant products created by the keys (ships, items, etc) are reasonably "used up"; or c) some other condition (arbitrary fixed time period, when the player quits, when the game shut down, etc)?
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
It's pretty much (potentially) the same as when Axanar went too far, and CBS pulled the rug from under everyone: EA have gone too far, and thus the whole games industry may be affected :-\
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Also "pay-2-win"? really? I don't remember hearing about anything in the system that actually makes paid players any more likely to win. Apparently the free characters are as good as the hard to unlock ones.
The main gripe here? Money.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Hawaii is working on it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#808316b7cbcb
I think the issue (which isn't even an issue) is that The Suits are saying that people might not know when to step back... Might get addicted/go broke etc, and then use that sanctimonious 'oh we're only thinking of you...' presumption, to then push through stupid changes, regardless of how it might affect other people, who wouldn't be affected by what they claim to be concerned about anyway, or the industry itself... I just hope the notion gets quashed, before it goes too far, and really screws the industry as a whole, and pushes This game into a corner where it's no longer financially viable... I think there are definitely options which could be brought in to replace the cash from buying keys, but, I'm not 100% they'd make money... Sure, I'd be willing to shell out on a pack so my Fed Romulan could actually wear a Starfleet uniform, but, all the time I see people running round Nimbus with Stock Away teams, I can tell that the market for such 'optional extras' is pretty niche... I mean, if someone can't even be bothered to alter their Starting Crew in any way, there's no way they're going to pay for Extra Shinies, and that lack of extra income, that I can see being the death of the game :-\
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Why anyone opens a Lock Box is their business. If they want to run the chance of actually getting the T6 prize, then that's their choice. They probably won't get it, and if they think they will, then they're either an idiot, or they're lying to themself. If they want to 'take the gamble' (because English doesn't really have any other suitable expression) then that's Up To Them. But it isn't gambling because even if they don't win what they want, they still get something in return. I've opened lock boxes for the weapons, the traits, and whatever else came out which I could then shift on the exchange for EC.
While I might have had some glimmer of the thought that it would be nice If I was to win the T6 ship, I NEVER had any serious expectation of doing so, and anyone who does, shouldn't have unmonitored computer access, because they lack the capacity to grasp the concepts involved.
If you want to go strictly by the dictionary definition, fine... That's the Letter of the Law... The distinction here is the Spirit of the Law... It's not gambling, it's not mandatory, it's not predatory, but it is what brings in the cash for Cryptic. No cash flow for them, no game for us... :-\
*SuckItEditMonster
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'