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Well... Looks like the producers of TRIBBLE have some serious explaining to do

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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    patrickngo wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    Is there no end to the fields in which you're a renowned expert, Patrick? Herpetology, quantum physics, mycology, xenobiology, and now law?

    Jon, if you can't counter someone's argument, it doesn't make them an expert, it just makes you underequipped. I don't have to be an "Expert" to be right. a couple of minutes looking up and reading copyright cases (well, really hours) and you'd be 'just as expert' as I, or anyone else with access to Google am.

    I don't think you'll find anyone here has any problems countering any of your arguments. You just refuse to read those counters and pretend they never happened.​​
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  • f9thretxcf9thretxc Member Posts: 498 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »

    Hideous organic supercomputers that perform complex operations required for navigation for an instantaneous drive. Sounds about right. Only differences is that Navigators use spice and prescience while the Tardigrade uses spores and more conventional methods.

    that is a good point. shoot , they even had such things in a big ole bowl in one of the films .

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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,550 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    Now, there's a pretty doggone huge difference between using one as a sort of organic supercomputer to tie into an interstellar network of quantum-entangled mycelial threads, and having one envelop you as a sort of biological spacesuit before engaging in transgalactic teleportation under its own power (and why intergalactic travel? Wouldn't interstellar be more than sufficient?). It's simply not reasonable, in my opinion, to claim that the not-fully-produced Steam game Tardigrades inspired in any meaningful way the spore drive in ST:D.
    Also, it is implied the 'super tartigrades' are intelligent, where the tartigrade in Star Trek:Discovery is not.

    It is implied that Ripper might be sentient by the Doctor. Being a prisoner, completely alien to anything the Federation has encountered, and being used in experiments against their will definitely doesn't help with having philosophical discussions. Since we only saw Ripper at their absolute worst, then there is no way to determine if they are intelligent. Although, being able to be used as an organic supercomputer implies that Ripper is intelligent.
  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,297 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »

    It is implied that Ripper might be sentient by the Doctor. Being a prisoner, completely alien to anything the Federation has encountered, and being used in experiments against their will definitely doesn't help with having philosophical discussions. Since we only saw Ripper at their absolute worst, then there is no way to determine if they are intelligent. Although, being able to be used as an organic supercomputer implies that Ripper is intelligent.

    It's not unlike the ethical implications of what happened on the Equinox. The difference is that DIS has better writing.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    It is implied that Ripper might be sentient by the Doctor.
    I must have missed something then. I got the impression it wasn't much smarter than a dog. I'm not sure how the tartigrade is a supercomputer when the Discovery just needs to use it to tap into the omni-spores. Isn't that why Stamet can inject himself with tartigrade blood and then everything works? He does not seem like a 'supercomputer'.
  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,297 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    It is implied that Ripper might be sentient by the Doctor.
    I must have missed something then. I got the impression it wasn't much smarter than a dog.

    Impressions can be deceiving though. Even the brightest individual can totally break in captivity.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,550 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    It is implied that Ripper might be sentient by the Doctor.
    I must have missed something then. I got the impression it wasn't much smarter than a dog. I'm not sure how the tartigrade is a supercomputer when the Discovery just needs to use it to tap into the omni-spores. Isn't that why Stamet can inject himself with tartigrade blood and then everything works? He does not seem like a 'supercomputer'.

    Sentience is different from Sapience. Sentience is the ability to feel and react to stimuli while Sapience is the ability to reason. So a dog is sentient, but not sapient while humans are sentient and sapient. It is a common mistake in Science Fiction. We can see that the Tardigrade is sentient due to their reaction to stimuli, but it might be too alien to determine if it is sapient.

    Tapping into the omni-spores is not enough. There might be trillions or more points represented by the spore network. Without a certain level of intelligence, it is impossible to choose which point best represents where the ship needs to go. So injecting Tardigrade DNA into Forrest Gump will not do anything useful, but injecting Tardigrade DNA into a scientist that has study the spore network for years will accomplish something useful. Although, we will have to see what the side effects of injecting Tardigrade DNA into a human are since the ending of the episode certainly showed something weird happening.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 36,988 Arc User
    yeah, like...breaching the barrier between this universe and the mirror universe​​
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,550 Arc User
    yeah, like...breaching the barrier between this universe and the mirror universe​​

    Was my first thought that it had something to do with the Mirror Universe like Stamet switched places with Mirror Stamet.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    Sentience is different from Sapience. Sentience is the ability to feel and react to stimuli while Sapience is the ability to reason. So a dog is sentient, but not sapient while humans are sentient and sapient. It is a common mistake in Science Fiction. We can see that the Tardigrade is sentient due to their reaction to stimuli, but it might be too alien to determine if it is sapient.

    Tapping into the omni-spores is not enough. There might be trillions or more points represented by the spore network. Without a certain level of intelligence, it is impossible to choose which point best represents where the ship needs to go. So injecting Tardigrade DNA into Forrest Gump will not do anything useful, but injecting Tardigrade DNA into a scientist that has study the spore network for years will accomplish something useful. Although, we will have to see what the side effects of injecting Tardigrade DNA into a human are since the ending of the episode certainly showed something weird happening.
    These are some good points.

    The only issue with your description is why would an organic being be able to do what a computer cannot? A scientist can study the spore network for years, yet a computer could hold an infinite amount of data, recall it perfectly, and handle multiple destination points simultaneously. If the scientist was involved in the programming of said computer, it should be able to surpass the scientist's abilities in every way. What exactly does Stamet and the tartigrade bring that a computer cannot?
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,550 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    Sentience is different from Sapience. Sentience is the ability to feel and react to stimuli while Sapience is the ability to reason. So a dog is sentient, but not sapient while humans are sentient and sapient. It is a common mistake in Science Fiction. We can see that the Tardigrade is sentient due to their reaction to stimuli, but it might be too alien to determine if it is sapient.

    Tapping into the omni-spores is not enough. There might be trillions or more points represented by the spore network. Without a certain level of intelligence, it is impossible to choose which point best represents where the ship needs to go. So injecting Tardigrade DNA into Forrest Gump will not do anything useful, but injecting Tardigrade DNA into a scientist that has study the spore network for years will accomplish something useful. Although, we will have to see what the side effects of injecting Tardigrade DNA into a human are since the ending of the episode certainly showed something weird happening.
    These are some good points.

    The only issue with your description is why would an organic being be able to do what a computer cannot? A scientist can study the spore network for years, yet a computer could hold an infinite amount of data, recall it perfectly, and handle multiple destination points simultaneously. If the scientist was involved in the programming of said computer, it should be able to surpass the scientist's abilities in every way. What exactly does Stamet and the tartigrade bring that a computer cannot?

    Intuition, understanding, luck, and/or emotion could be required to navigate the network. Andromeda's slipstream required intuition to travel safely. So in Andromeda, it is possible for an AI to navigate through slipstream, but extremely dangerous. It took until the middle of the 24th Century for the emotion chip to be created. There are just some things that aren't possible with 23rd Century computers.

    Lots of military SF requires an organic pilot due to artificial pilots don't have the piloting skills compared to organic pilots. If intuition, understanding, luck, and emotion can be programmed into a computer, then there would be no need for organic pilots.
  • lordrezeonlordrezeon Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »

    It is implied that Ripper might be sentient by the Doctor. Being a prisoner, completely alien to anything the Federation has encountered, and being used in experiments against their will definitely doesn't help with having philosophical discussions. Since we only saw Ripper at their absolute worst, then there is no way to determine if they are intelligent. Although, being able to be used as an organic supercomputer implies that Ripper is intelligent.

    It's not unlike the ethical implications of what happened on the Equinox. The difference is that DIS has better writing.

    How poorly written is Equinox (haven't seen it) if TRIBBLE has better writing?
    I've seen fanfiction that has a more original and better storyline than TRIBBLE, so Equinox must be horrid.

    Equinox was kind of a throw away plot to let Janeway go all Rambo on another Starfleet ship while gloating about how ethically superior she was during the previous seasons of the show (which occurred after she gave the Borg weapons to exterminate Species 8472). Sadly the writing feeds into the Janeway as a tyrant concept. As soon as Janeway learns there is another Starfleet ship in the Delta Quadrant the first thing she does is look up a regulation that will let her claim seniority over the other captain, and then declares her intent to scuttle the second ship. All of this occurs before Janeway has any clue that the Equinox crew has done anything immoral. The episode ends with her declaring the entire crew of the other ship irredeemably guilty and uses it as justification to kill all but a couple of them. Overall it was a pretty low point for Janeway's character.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    Sentience is different from Sapience. Sentience is the ability to feel and react to stimuli while Sapience is the ability to reason. So a dog is sentient, but not sapient while humans are sentient and sapient. It is a common mistake in Science Fiction. We can see that the Tardigrade is sentient due to their reaction to stimuli, but it might be too alien to determine if it is sapient.

    Tapping into the omni-spores is not enough. There might be trillions or more points represented by the spore network. Without a certain level of intelligence, it is impossible to choose which point best represents where the ship needs to go. So injecting Tardigrade DNA into Forrest Gump will not do anything useful, but injecting Tardigrade DNA into a scientist that has study the spore network for years will accomplish something useful. Although, we will have to see what the side effects of injecting Tardigrade DNA into a human are since the ending of the episode certainly showed something weird happening.
    These are some good points.

    The only issue with your description is why would an organic being be able to do what a computer cannot?
    Organic beings can do all manner of things that computers cannot today. Computers are incapable of original thought, or even of thought in any meaningful sense; they cannot collate and interpret data without human guidance. Interpolation of incomplete data, save in specific "expert system" scenarios, is beyond them.

    We know from canon that the computers of Star Trek, at least into the early 24th century, were incapable of true sapience - the point of the M-5 experiment was an attempt to use human mind "engrams" to provide a duotronic system with the ability to think independently. There's no way that a computer system constructed 10+ years earlier would be able to do most things that would be trivial for an organic mind.
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  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,297 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    lordrezeon wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »

    It is implied that Ripper might be sentient by the Doctor. Being a prisoner, completely alien to anything the Federation has encountered, and being used in experiments against their will definitely doesn't help with having philosophical discussions. Since we only saw Ripper at their absolute worst, then there is no way to determine if they are intelligent. Although, being able to be used as an organic supercomputer implies that Ripper is intelligent.

    It's not unlike the ethical implications of what happened on the Equinox. The difference is that DIS has better writing.

    How poorly written is Equinox (haven't seen it) if TRIBBLE has better writing?
    I've seen fanfiction that has a more original and better storyline than TRIBBLE, so Equinox must be horrid.

    Equinox was kind of a throw away plot to let Janeway go all Rambo on another Starfleet ship while gloating about how ethically superior she was during the previous seasons of the show (which occurred after she gave the Borg weapons to exterminate Species 8472). Sadly the writing feeds into the Janeway as a tyrant concept. As soon as Janeway learns there is another Starfleet ship in the Delta Quadrant the first thing she does is look up a regulation that will let her claim seniority over the other captain, and then declares her intent to scuttle the second ship. All of this occurs before Janeway has any clue that the Equinox crew has done anything immoral. The episode ends with her declaring the entire crew of the other ship irredeemably guilty and uses it as justification to kill all but a couple of them. Overall it was a pretty low point for Janeway's character.

    Also it didn't make much sense that Equinox was brought to the Delta Quadrant prior to Voyager by the same circumstances without investigating.
    And good point about Janeway. She was always jumping back and forth ethically and morally. In the episode "Phage" she was not willing to kill a Vidiian to get Neelix his lungs back because that would be egoistic, but a season later she happily tells Tuvix to go f*** himself for wanting to exist while she simply wanted Tuvok and Neelix (mostly Tuvok) back. She literally made an individual that was born from an accident hate itself so much that it willingly gave up on its life.

    The writers behind Voyager were that stupid throughout the entire seven seasons.
  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,297 Arc User
    My post vanished?
    Is there a problem with linking to Memory Alpha?

    linking should work fine, try to post it again - that same thing happened to me earlier today too. Forum-bugs that need to be smashed, I'd guess :D
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    For some reason, if you submit a post then go to edit it afterward, you have to add to the total text or the Edit Monster will eat the whole post.
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  • jansil#1393 jansil Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    Both the game, and the show "rippedoff" another show from the 1980's. The Americanized show of ROBOTECH. The Spore Drive of TRIBBLE is the Space Fold system of Robotech. Instant teleportation through space, with a somewhat unpredictable drive system powered by the seeds of a plant. Failure meant being off target, to death of the crew. The latter was never in the show, but was discussed in the books and RPG that Harmony Gold lisc. to Palladium Books.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    Intuition, understanding, luck, and/or emotion could be required to navigate the network. Andromeda's slipstream required intuition to travel safely. So in Andromeda, it is possible for an AI to navigate through slipstream, but extremely dangerous. It took until the middle of the 24th Century for the emotion chip to be created. There are just some things that aren't possible with 23rd Century computers.
    The issue shown on screen is "accuracy". They need a fleshy organism to accurately get from point to point. Today, we use computers for this all the time, from large vessels to airplanes to spacecraft.

    What makes a fleshy being more accurate than a computer?
    starkaos wrote: »
    Lots of military SF requires an organic pilot due to artificial pilots don't have the piloting skills compared to organic pilots. If intuition, understanding, luck, and emotion can be programmed into a computer, then there would be no need for organic pilots.
    The issue is not intuition or creativity or experience (the qualities most often lauded in fleshy beings in Sci-fi). Even if the omni-spore network was a constantly shifting and complex entity, a computer would be far better equipped to handle that than a human. It is why computers are used extensively in meteorology for that same reason.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,550 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    Intuition, understanding, luck, and/or emotion could be required to navigate the network. Andromeda's slipstream required intuition to travel safely. So in Andromeda, it is possible for an AI to navigate through slipstream, but extremely dangerous. It took until the middle of the 24th Century for the emotion chip to be created. There are just some things that aren't possible with 23rd Century computers.
    The issue shown on screen is "accuracy". They need a fleshy organism to accurately get from point to point. Today, we use computers for this all the time, from large vessels to airplanes to spacecraft.

    What makes a fleshy being more accurate than a computer?
    starkaos wrote: »
    Lots of military SF requires an organic pilot due to artificial pilots don't have the piloting skills compared to organic pilots. If intuition, understanding, luck, and emotion can be programmed into a computer, then there would be no need for organic pilots.
    The issue is not intuition or creativity or experience (the qualities most often lauded in fleshy beings in Sci-fi). Even if the omni-spore network was a constantly shifting and complex entity, a computer would be far better equipped to handle that than a human. It is why computers are used extensively in meteorology for that same reason.

    If Discovery was able to map each point in the spore network, then a computer could be used for navigation assuming that each point didn't randomly move. Of course, such a method would require years or decades to map the spore network. So it would be helpful for creating something like the Stargate network, but not to the level that was shown in Discovery where they can instantly appear next to the enemy.

    The spore network is a chaotic network. Computers are great at using brute force or following instructions, but they are terrible at intuition. Try to create a computer program that can get from your computer to my computer without the internet addresses or the structure of the internet. The program would have to try every point in the network since every point would be a valid destination. If your computer was in the Eastern United States and my computer was in the Western United States and your signal ended up in England, then you would know you are going the wrong way. A computer would not be able to figure that out. They would just know that they were in a location called England with no understanding of how that relates to the Western United States or Eastern United States. With the spore network, it could be even more difficult. To go from the Earth to Alpha Centauri, it could require travelling through points represented by Tau Ceti, Qo'noS, Bajor, Vulcan, Ferenginar, and finally Alpha Centauri.
  • darakossdarakoss Member Posts: 850 Arc User
    there is already a thread on this.
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 7,773 Community Moderator
    Thread: HEY LOOK, CBS/DISCOVERY APPARENTLY RIPPED OFF THIS GAME WITHOUT CREDIT @tunicate515#4416

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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,125 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Is there no end to the fields in which you're a renowned expert, Patrick? Herpetology, quantum physics, mycology, xenobiology, and now law?

    Give him a few more minutes of Google searching and he can add any field to his "expertise". This entire thread is nonsense.
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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    If Discovery was able to map each point in the spore network, then a computer could be used for navigation assuming that each point didn't randomly move. Of course, such a method would require years or decades to map the spore network. So it would be helpful for creating something like the Stargate network, but not to the level that was shown in Discovery where they can instantly appear next to the enemy.

    The spore network is a chaotic network. Computers are great at using brute force or following instructions, but they are terrible at intuition. Try to create a computer program that can get from your computer to my computer without the internet addresses or the structure of the internet. The program would have to try every point in the network since every point would be a valid destination. If your computer was in the Eastern United States and my computer was in the Western United States and your signal ended up in England, then you would know you are going the wrong way. A computer would not be able to figure that out. They would just know that they were in a location called England with no understanding of how that relates to the Western United States or Eastern United States. With the spore network, it could be even more difficult. To go from the Earth to Alpha Centauri, it could require travelling through points represented by Tau Ceti, Qo'noS, Bajor, Vulcan, Ferenginar, and finally Alpha Centauri.
    That is not how mapping and plotting a course work.

    The user designates a destination and that is where the computer starts plotting from. Endpoint to where you are. Have you used a GPS navigation system? One that maps a route for you? That is how they work.

    While I have enjoyed this discussion, at this point, I think we will have to agree to disagree. While fleshy beings have creativity, intuition and experience, they are also prone to being distracted, tired, forgetful and have poor response times compared to machines. I have seen some of the really amazing things modern computers and programs can map, plenty of things that shift and move in real time. My belief is that the fleshy being is required more for drama purposes than functionality.
  • swamarianswamarian Member Posts: 1,492 Arc User
    Both the game, and the show "rippedoff" another show from the 1980's. The Americanized show of ROBOTECH. The Spore Drive of TRIBBLE is the Space Fold system of Robotech. Instant teleportation through space, with a somewhat unpredictable drive system powered by the seeds of a plant. Failure meant being off target, to death of the crew. The latter was never in the show, but was discussed in the books and RPG that Harmony Gold lisc. to Palladium Books.

    I might as well jump in since Harmony Gold & FASA have already been mentioned.
    The first 1/3 of Robotech is a Japanese show, Superdimensional Fortress Macross. Protoculture in that show was more or less men and women living together, plus the power of song. Protoculture being a plant power source was invented by Carl Macek when he stitched Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeda together.
    Both Harmony Gold and FASA licensed the designs from Macross, from different sources. Harmony Gold won the lawsuit between them, but they have limited rights. They can't bring over any of the later shows, and will sue anyone else who tries, so it's bootlegs for us in North America. (Macross II and Plus made it in before they got lawsuit happy.)
    The Tardigrade was only in the show for two episodes. The spore drive was shown to work (over short distances) before they had one, and now they have a better substitute. If this did go to court, it would involve the nature of star drive more than just "tardigrades!" and I doubt that the developer would win.
    As for Harmony Gold, they sued Hasbro in 2013 over the JetFire Skystriker. That lawsuit went exactly nowhere.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,951 Arc User
    lordrezeon wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »

    It is implied that Ripper might be sentient by the Doctor. Being a prisoner, completely alien to anything the Federation has encountered, and being used in experiments against their will definitely doesn't help with having philosophical discussions. Since we only saw Ripper at their absolute worst, then there is no way to determine if they are intelligent. Although, being able to be used as an organic supercomputer implies that Ripper is intelligent.

    It's not unlike the ethical implications of what happened on the Equinox. The difference is that DIS has better writing.

    How poorly written is Equinox (haven't seen it) if TRIBBLE has better writing?
    I've seen fanfiction that has a more original and better storyline than TRIBBLE, so Equinox must be horrid.

    Equinox was kind of a throw away plot to let Janeway go all Rambo on another Starfleet ship while gloating about how ethically superior she was during the previous seasons of the show (which occurred after she gave the Borg weapons to exterminate Species 8472). Sadly the writing feeds into the Janeway as a tyrant concept. As soon as Janeway learns there is another Starfleet ship in the Delta Quadrant the first thing she does is look up a regulation that will let her claim seniority over the other captain, and then declares her intent to scuttle the second ship. All of this occurs before Janeway has any clue that the Equinox crew has done anything immoral. The episode ends with her declaring the entire crew of the other ship irredeemably guilty and uses it as justification to kill all but a couple of them. Overall it was a pretty low point for Janeway's character.

    Also it didn't make much sense that Equinox was brought to the Delta Quadrant prior to Voyager by the same circumstances without investigating.
    And good point about Janeway. She was always jumping back and forth ethically and morally. In the episode "Phage" she was not willing to kill a Vidiian to get Neelix his lungs back because that would be egoistic, but a season later she happily tells Tuvix to go f*** himself for wanting to exist while she simply wanted Tuvok and Neelix (mostly Tuvok) back. She literally made an individual that was born from an accident hate itself so much that it willingly gave up on its life.

    The writers behind Voyager were that stupid throughout the entire seven seasons.

    It's actually even worse than that. Tuvix was begging not to be killed but Janeway ordered the Doctor to do it anyway, and then switched him off and did it herself when the Doctor rightly refused the illegal order.

    The Doctor should've just sedated her and had Chakotay take command for a while.
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