The Tzenkethi do buff each other when they come into proximity. The last thing you want to do is GW them together.
Also in Gravity Kills you don't even need to kill them with firepower. You can push them into the singularity. Tzenkethi Front likewise doesn't require you to kill them all. Just a few select ships to grab the bombs would do. Single target setups will shine here.
@tunebreaker I hear what you say about using powers/abilities effectively and I'd like to learn more. Do you know of any good guides, posts etc. on the subject?
You can always join us at "The Science Channel" in-game if you are on PC. Also, if you are interested in Sci-Torp builds I did a rather lengthy video on how I fly them:
Gravity Well for the pull, Photonic Shockwave to stun everything and push escapers back in, then drop a Torpedo Spread in there. Takes about fifteen seconds to generate multiple warp core breaches killing everything in the hole.
I posted about this kind of thing AGES ago, but there was no response.
Indeed, each race should have a particular tactical style, but we just don't see that.
For instance, Romulans in the shows were DEFINED by the cloaking device... yet here they NEVER use it. Fighting a Romulan should be like trying to fight a submarine. If they're going to have abilities and powers, they should be built around THAT tactical style, with lots of sensor jams, hidden mines, sensor decoys and hit and run tactics.
Klingons are all about speed and forward firepower. They should be JOUSTERS, dropping off boarders as they whip past.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
Yes, a little "Run Silent Run Deep" you know the old Star Trek Academy software game had a simulator where the Romulans did just that, which was based on the the "Balance of Terror" episode (one of the best episodes of all time) as they were cloaked and you to pick up there plasma emission trail and lay down phaser fire.
Now that was fun and thought provoking with strategy in mind!!
and wow, e30ernest, that's a lot of thought put into a game that people just mash spacebar for pew pew!
Hehe yes that's pretty much an info-dump where I ramble off quite a bit. The thing is, once you've committed things to memory and things become more of a reflex, builds like my Eternal are probably some of the easiest to fly and get good results. The Pathfinder in the video requires a bit more micro-management so that might be a bit tougher than the usual spacebar builds.
@lopequil The vid that e30ernest linked is excellent if you're into sci. I'm quite sure it's the best currently out there. However, if science isn't your thing, there's a pretty old, but still solid videoguide that gives more general piloting advice.
In addition, the guide by Qthulhu that was recently promoted by Cryptic themselves and featured in the game news (the same that meimeitoo linked) is a very valuable reading, as are the links to r/stobuilds wiki posted by alcaatraz in this thread.
Finally, I can just suggest watching videos made by various high DPSers, to see how they play.
Yea, but why put a gold plated spoon in a game about flipping pancakes? For that matter, why build the game that doesn't become all about flipping pancakes until you're 100+ hours in and then scoff at people who picked the spoon? That's simply bad design and it should be rectified.
But it isn't bad design. Again, what works in normal story content is not necessarily going to do well for advanced or elite content.
I am going to disagree slightly on this. It does seem to be a bad design. Perhaps a common one, but that does not make it good.
There is little education built into the game to tell you that you have to build differently or that what you are doing now will not work later.
While I am grateful for the help on this forum. It should not be mandatory to go outside the game to learn how to even function at higher levels.
So on that idea I go back to one floated before. There should be a solo mission you have to beat by a certain score to play advanced and another for elite. Basically use the holodeck on Bajor from the 2800 series, as an example. You go in and select advanced borg. You drop into your ship and you have to try an make the optionals. This also gives a default mission that others may use to test designs. Just make the mission reward either nil or trivial beyond the unlock.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
But it isn't bad design. Again, what works in normal story content is not necessarily going to do well for advanced or elite content.
Sorry, but having random dead ends and red herrings in your build options is absolutely awful game design. Anyone with a basic understanding of excel could create a spreadsheet that makes sure all the various build options are normalized to the point where if you put the work in to get good items you don't wind up with something completely useless for no good reason. If they can't manage to make enemies challenging by any other means than just insane regeneration that you need to crack with raw DPS then just freaking normalize the DPS so people don't quit the game because they happen to enjoy tactics that are just arbitrarily not allowed to reach the level of DPS required to play endgame content.
I mean please, give me one good reason why a science carrier with heavy torpedo weaponry should be absolutely useless for elite content? What about that particular combination of weaponry and abilities makes it unworthy of being useful outside of story content? Why should people who enjoy that particular type of ship get screwed over?
Science carrier with heavy torp weaponry doesn't work very well, cause carriers tend to have low turn rate, meaning you can't get your enemies into front 90' arc in reasonable timeframe.
Mind you, a friend of mine (sadly not in game anymore) had pretty good results with his torp-Jupiter. Yes, beams worked better even for him, obviously, but that's beside the point.
Turn rate isn't the issue, I can get my weapons on the target just fine, especially since I run Temporal Operative and Pilot, giving me Nonlinear Progression and Back Her Off!. The issue is that at the high end they don't have enough burst to outright kill opponents, nor do they have enough DPS to overcome the opponent's regeneration. On top of that the fact that fighters don't go to full impulse with you means a good chunk of my firepower is always late to the fight.
Turn rate isn't the issue, I can get my weapons on the target just fine, especially since I run Temporal Operative and Pilot, giving me Nonlinear Progression and Back Her Off!. The issue is that at the high end they don't have enough burst to outright kill opponents, nor do they have enough DPS to overcome the opponent's regeneration. On top of that the fact that fighters don't go to full impulse with you means a good chunk of my firepower is always late to the fight.
That last problem is a staging one on your part. You can stop outside the 10km combat range and let your fighters catch up. Or bring them to dock. Or just launch new ones. You can begin to send them to attack from 15km. So why rush into the kill box in a carrier?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Anyone with a basic understanding of excel could create a spreadsheet that makes sure all the various build options are normalized to the point where if you put the work in to get good items you don't wind up with something completely useless for no good reason.
The problem here is that the bar Cryptic set for player performance is already set really low for normal, and not that much higher for Advanced. The following is a parody video which contains some really bad builds, and yet they still managed to do fine in Normal and Advanced stuff:
One of them was even using FAW in a ship with no beams equipped. And yet they still all managed to break the threshold for Advanced content (at 10k and 20k on that ISA).
There are a bunch of things that factor into player (and ship) performance. While gear is certainly one of the factors, the person controlling the ship is a bigger factor. I was egging @tunebreaker and @mmps1 in our channel regarding that video since while they made a very good effort at making a bad build, their piloting still rescued an otherwise sub-par build.
...There is little education built into the game to tell you that you have to build differently or that what you are doing now will not work later.
While I am grateful for the help on this forum. It should not be mandatory to go outside the game to learn how to even function at higher levels....
I don't disagree that there is a lack of information. However, it's my experience that tribal knowledge from more experienced players is always better than anything Developers can build into their game.
Agreed.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Yea, but the thing is, my ship is not randomly tossed together. My skills, consoles, weapons, traits, are all chosen to support the build. I have a fully upgraded Vaadwaur Cluster Torpedo, orange item, two consoles that boost Tricobalt weaponry by 40%, Phasic Artillery, Multipurpose Combat Console, Omega Kinetic Shearing, Pre-Fire Sequence, Even a Duty Officer who gives me a reduction in torpedo reload so I can chuck more of them out there. I've not skimped on any part of the build, I've unlocked my 5th trait slots, I've thought it all through and made sure it's coherent, and it just does not matter.
Mm. A start. Unfortunately, my good sir, that is not nearly specific enough for our purposes. Go here, and fill this out, then post us the link:
I know it seems like a lot of work. But the more that we know, the better we can help you. As is, there is only so much advice that we can give with what we currently know. I am going to assume that you are using multiple Tricobalt Torpedoes since that seems to be the case here.
3 Torpedo Duty Officers is much better than one. That would give three 20% chance per shot to activate, sometimes all three at once. Unfortunately, I don't think that is applies to Cluster Torpedoes since they are officially Mines, and they don't share Torpedo Cooldown. There is also a variant that makes Tricobalt Torpedoes Fly Faster. Kimo, I think his name is. But I have not found them to be as useful as the Cooldown Duty Officer.
Adapted Omega (Fed)/ Honor Guard (Klingon) Reputation Set increases Torpedo Damage by 25%. A Two Piece combination from this and two from the Iconian Set are good for running Torpedo Boats.
Some Universal Consoles that are worth looking in to would be 'Sustained Radiant Field' from Iconian Reputation, 'Chronometric Capacitor' from the mission 'Time And Tide' , and 'Bioneural Infusion Circuits' from the Lobi Store.
If you are using a Carrier and sitting still while firing and using your Pets, consider picking up the 'Anchored' Trait off of the Exchange. It increases your dealty damage the longer that you are stationary
If you use regular Mines, grab the 'Hot Pursuit' Trait off of the Exchange. It will double their lock-on and chase range.
Naturally, the R&D Trait for leveling the Projectile School to 15 (whose name escapes me at the moment) is a must as it gives +10% Shield Penetration.
'Auxiliary Power Configuration' from the Nukara Reputation is good. It is even better if you are using a Torpedo Boat since you do not require Weapon Power and can shunt that into Auxiliary.
Consider using 'Energy Siphon' instead of 'Tachyon Beam'. It just does a better job of hurting the enemy's shields (and everything else), plus it powers you up. The Breen Ship Traits can make it even better.
Consider 'Tyken's Rift' instead of 'Gravity Well'. Coupled with 'Energy Siphon', your enemies won't have much, if any, shields to get in your way. Regardless of which you choose, there are Gravimetic Scientist Duty Officers that let you spawn multiple TRs or GWs.
Kemocite-Laced Weaponry, if you have a spare Ensign Tactical Slot, compliments the Tricobalt's area effect blasts nicely.
If you have access to the 'Unstable Anomalies' Starship Trait from the Paradox Temporal Dreadnought, it will make your rifts detonate in a 5 km explosion when they end.
And, of course, there is the simple 'Gravity Well' followed a few seconds later by 'Torpedo Spread' combo. The splash damage from a bunch of Tricobalts against several clustered ships is a beautiful sight to behold. I, personally, have gotten 250,000 damage hits with just that several times and am NOT a power gamer. It averages at about 100,000 to 125,000 per combo, though.
But it isn't bad design. Again, what works in normal story content is not necessarily going to do well for advanced or elite content.
Sorry, but having random dead ends and red herrings in your build options is absolutely awful game design. Anyone with a basic understanding of excel could create a spreadsheet that makes sure all the various build options are normalized to the point where if you put the work in to get good items you don't wind up with something completely useless for no good reason. If they can't manage to make enemies challenging by any other means than just insane regeneration that you need to crack with raw DPS then just freaking normalize the DPS so people don't quit the game because they happen to enjoy tactics that are just arbitrarily not allowed to reach the level of DPS required to play endgame content.
I mean please, give me one good reason why a science carrier with heavy torpedo weaponry should be absolutely useless for elite content? What about that particular combination of weaponry and abilities makes it unworthy of being useful outside of story content? Why should people who enjoy that particular type of ship get screwed over?
But it is not. A science carrier with (heavy) torpedo weapons is not useless. Science ships are not useless, regardless of whether they are using torpedoes or something else. That's what a lot of people are trying to explain here.
Sorry, but having random dead ends and red herrings in your build options is absolutely awful game design....
I disagree. From the sound of it, you have essentially built a kind of one trick pony build that you find works for you under most circumstances in normal content that you are expecting to just work the same in higher end content.
Again, normal content is a totally different animal than advanced or elite content. Your build and tactics need to adjust.
The post @e30ernest made in this thread about using GW on the Tzenkethi is a fantastic example. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people use GW on them in the queue only to cry "WTF!!! WHY WON'T THEY DIE!??" in chat because they don't drop like flies. Clearly, using GW to group enemies together works under most circumstances. Yet here it doesn't. You as a player need to adapt your strategy.
Basically this. That Gravity well can still be useful btw, you'll just need to prioritse the targets that are in the Gravity well for a change.
It seems that the problem here is regeneration. Simply shooting the enemies that help the others regenerate can easily solve the problem. That can be done with that gravity well in fact, personally I find Tyken's rift to be very useful against Tzenkethi. Or any other AoE ability such as a Torpedo spread. As long as you target the cruisers first with your main weapons and abilities and preferably in their front arc, there shouldn't be too much of a problem.
What you are calling Dead Ends the build junkies call opportunity to create a new build.
The game is intentionally complex. So complex that guys who have years of building experience are still creating new builds, or resurrecting builds from older incarnations of the game which now perform differently.
My main is a Tactical Bird of Prey hit-and-run raider. I decloak, blow stuff up until I'm targeted, and zip out of range before my shields fail. In this build my own piloting is the difference between success and respawn.
My second is an Engineering Warbird tank. He ain't going nowhere fast but he can regen faster than anything short of elite content, (or players,) can dish out. Piloting isn't important, but being in the right place at the right time is.
My first character is a Science Science Torp Boat. I can shield tank anything in game with him except other players, and I can hold them off for a while. Learning to fly the BoP almost doubled my damage output in this ship.
Now please don't take this the wrong way; I didn't get it at first either. But the truth is, virtually any build can see you through the episodes. Virtually any focused build can see you through Advanced content if you learn a little piloting. But Elite content requires synergy. Synergy between abilities, gear, and player capability.
When I was at your stage of development I ran headfirst into the vertical learning curve that every player encounters in STO once you hit level 50, and I raged. I used almost every argument you've presented and a few of my own to show how unfair the game was. I was attempting to break into PvP at the time, and most matches ended with me as 15 of the 15 required kills.
It was gear, it was hacks, it was everything except me because I had put hours of thought into my build and playstyle.
But I was fighting guys with end game experience, and the episodes do nothing to prepare you for that.Then a player with a similar chosen playstyle started to mentor me, and within days I became less incompetent. PvE became easy. So easy that it posed no real challenge, (to a guy who respawned his way through the Elachi story arc.)
What I learned is that STO has a metagame. Both ground and space combat are so complex that any chosen playstyle can be refined into builds which blow away Elite content. STFs aren't the end game content of STO, build diversity is, and some players are still drilling into that lode and finding gold.
This is a good thing. How many games have you played where there was only one end game style, and you were forced to conform to that meta to complete the game? Plus, how many of those games allowed you to play for five years and still be challenged? Plus, how many of those games had details you were still learning after five years of successful gameplay?
Please don't take this wrong, it is not intended to be an insult. In fact, it is the lesson I had to learn before I could begin to PvP: it is you. There is a great deal for you to learn, and you won't learn it on the forums. It's not something you can gradually learn unless you are willing to spend weeks parsing logs. It's something only other players can teach you. They are willing, but you have to ask.
And before you say it's bad game design, let me say that no other game out there offers the end game diversity of STO.
Fleets used to teach builds and tactics. Avoid vanity fleets by observing the fleet tags of ships you see in the queues. Players are a font of advice, but some is less than useful; watch those in your STF runs and ask them how they do what they do. The Science Channel, the DPS channels, and others are filled with players ready to advise and debate various build strategies and how to support those builds with your playstyle.
Finally, find a mentor. Find someone who is successful at what you want to do and talk to them. They can guide you up the learning cliff and teach you how to succeed, and then you can go on from there to refine and master your chosen playstyle.
@lopequil
The vid that e30ernest linked is excellent if you're into sci. I'm quite sure it's the best currently out there. However, if science isn't your thing, there's a pretty old, but still solid videoguide that gives more general piloting advice.
In addition, the guide by Qthulhu that was recently promoted by Cryptic themselves and featured in the game news (the same that meimeitoo linked) is a very valuable reading, as are the links to r/stobuilds wiki posted by alcaatraz in this thread.
Finally, I can just suggest watching videos made by various high DPSers, to see how they play.
Much obliged, I'll have a look at those. Although I confess I'd never heard of Cthulhu before today.
@tunebreaker I hear what you say about using powers/abilities effectively and I'd like to learn more. Do you know of any good guides, posts etc. on the subject?
You can always join us at "The Science Channel" in-game if you are on PC. Also, if you are interested in Sci-Torp builds I did a rather lengthy video on how I fly them:
What you are calling Dead Ends the build junkies call opportunity to create a new build.
The game is intentionally complex. So complex that guys who have years of building experience are still creating new builds, or resurrecting builds from older incarnations of the game which now perform differently.
My main is a Tactical Bird of Prey hit-and-run raider. I decloak, blow stuff up until I'm targeted, and zip out of range before my shields fail. In this build my own piloting is the difference between success and respawn.
My second is an Engineering Warbird tank. He ain't going nowhere fast but he can regen faster than anything short of elite content, (or players,) can dish out. Piloting isn't important, but being in the right place at the right time is.
My first character is a Science Science Torp Boat. I can shield tank anything in game with him except other players, and I can hold them off for a while. Learning to fly the BoP almost doubled my damage output in this ship.
Now please don't take this the wrong way; I didn't get it at first either. But the truth is, virtually any build can see you through the episodes. Virtually any focused build can see you through Advanced content if you learn a little piloting. But Elite content requires synergy. Synergy between abilities, gear, and player capability.
When I was at your stage of development I ran headfirst into the vertical learning curve that every player encounters in STO once you hit level 50, and I raged. I used almost every argument you've presented and a few of my own to show how unfair the game was. I was attempting to break into PvP at the time, and most matches ended with me as 15 of the 15 required kills.
It was gear, it was hacks, it was everything except me because I had put hours of thought into my build and playstyle.
But I was fighting guys with end game experience, and the episodes do nothing to prepare you for that.Then a player with a similar chosen playstyle started to mentor me, and within days I became less incompetent. PvE became easy. So easy that it posed no real challenge, (to a guy who respawned his way through the Elachi story arc.)
What I learned is that STO has a metagame. Both ground and space combat are so complex that any chosen playstyle can be refined into builds which blow away Elite content. STFs aren't the end game content of STO, build diversity is, and some players are still drilling into that lode and finding gold.
This is a good thing. How many games have you played where there was only one end game style, and you were forced to conform to that meta to complete the game? Plus, how many of those games allowed you to play for five years and still be challenged? Plus, how many of those games had details you were still learning after five years of successful gameplay?
Please don't take this wrong, it is not intended to be an insult. In fact, it is the lesson I had to learn before I could begin to PvP: it is you. There is a great deal for you to learn, and you won't learn it on the forums. It's not something you can gradually learn unless you are willing to spend weeks parsing logs. It's something only other players can teach you. They are willing, but you have to ask.
And before you say it's bad game design, let me say that no other game out there offers the end game diversity of STO.
Fleets used to teach builds and tactics. Avoid vanity fleets by observing the fleet tags of ships you see in the queues. Players are a font of advice, but some is less than useful; watch those in your STF runs and ask them how they do what they do. The Science Channel, the DPS channels, and others are filled with players ready to advise and debate various build strategies and how to support those builds with your playstyle.
Finally, find a mentor. Find someone who is successful at what you want to do and talk to them. They can guide you up the learning cliff and teach you how to succeed, and then you can go on from there to refine and master your chosen playstyle.
Then you're definitely doing it wrong. No, seriously. Brushfire battles (assuming you're playing on Normal) last about 30 seconds, each. And I'm a rather average player.
30 seconds is a bit on the harsh side for an "average player". Unless you have kind of an all-epic build with specialized (lock box?) equipment. A couple of minutes it may take.
Once you reach 5 minutes though, there are two possibilities:
1) you are playing a specialized exotic/drain sci captain on a boat without sci seats and just crumped together some random beam weapons and consoles for this ship just to get the mastery. Relax, you will get the mastery and better times will come.
2) your strategy is off. If you're not doing that high of DPS (as in e. g. a case 1 scenario) you need to know about opponents abilities and why it helps to take out Tzenkethi cruisers first. Because yes, the support vessels can outheal your DPS on the bosses if you don't do enough DPS (or at least peak DPS) and ignore strategies.
However, this is the one mission I remember off the cuff right now where your allies actually do decent damage, so normally you should be fine (unlike say the Tzenkethi dreadnought in the previous episode, where you got hardly any help at all). If a battle takes "hours" something is clearly not tuned to perfection.
Generally speaking: even playing with only Mk XII drops (provided you get the right ones, but you probably will at this time in the storyline) your ship should be able to manage this.
Wait, are we not supposed to build our ship like the Dyson ship in A step between stars?
Temporal Ambassador is bad enough with its build, but at least the Tholians roll over voluntarily. The annoying thing in these "fly a new ship" missions (Sphere of Influence also come to mind) is the messed up tray - and do I really want to spend 10 minutes on a one time build? So yeah, that part isn't the most enjoyable experience of STO.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
The thing is that it's the job of the designers to keep the DPS of all forms of attack close enough together that they don't simply become useless. Of course a tricobalt device can't simply one-shot endgame enemies the way it does random mooks on a single player mission, but if its DPS is so low that they fully regenerate before it can shoot again it's simply a broken weapon. Same goes for singularities, tachyon beams, whatever. They don't have to be 100% of the DPS of an assault ship, but maybe 50 or 60% would be reasonable instead of 5%.
There are many reasons why certain weapons/damage types may be more or less effective against a given NPC. Hate to say it, but if you cannot produce enough damage to defeat NPCs in advanced content, it's not the weapons, it is your build and gear.
and play style. I am sure that there are players that could jump into my ship right now and increase DPS by 50% if not more
> @colonelmarik said: > I posted about this kind of thing AGES ago, but there was no response. > Indeed, each race should have a particular tactical style, but we just don't see that. > > For instance, Romulans in the shows were DEFINED by the cloaking device... yet here they NEVER use it. Fighting a Romulan should be like trying to fight a submarine. If they're going to have abilities and powers, they should be built around THAT tactical style, with lots of sensor jams, hidden mines, sensor decoys and hit and run tactics. > > Klingons are all about speed and forward firepower. They should be JOUSTERS, dropping off boarders as they whip past. > > I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
I totally agree with you! My romulan d'deridix should have 5 weapon mounts up front for that same decloaking surprise, in your face, engagement. That with the battle cloak would offset its poor maneuverability.
I've been pretty happy with the Klingon setups, but again 5 weapon mounts forward should be on every ship for that emphasis on forward firepower.
As for a carrier ship and endgame content, I can't really comment because I don't care for carriers, but I've found that every ship has its particular playing style and nailing it is key to success with the right gear. Perhaps a different playing strategy is needed.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
Also in Gravity Kills you don't even need to kill them with firepower. You can push them into the singularity. Tzenkethi Front likewise doesn't require you to kill them all. Just a few select ships to grab the bombs would do. Single target setups will shine here.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Wow, that video is amazing.. well done.
Most of it goes right over my head.. I'll have to watch it several times.. but man, you know your stuff.
Thanks for sharing it.
Yes, a little "Run Silent Run Deep" you know the old Star Trek Academy software game had a simulator where the Romulans did just that, which was based on the the "Balance of Terror" episode (one of the best episodes of all time) as they were cloaked and you to pick up there plasma emission trail and lay down phaser fire.
Now that was fun and thought provoking with strategy in mind!!
Hehe yes that's pretty much an info-dump where I ramble off quite a bit. The thing is, once you've committed things to memory and things become more of a reflex, builds like my Eternal are probably some of the easiest to fly and get good results. The Pathfinder in the video requires a bit more micro-management so that might be a bit tougher than the usual spacebar builds.
Thanks and I hope you found it helpful!
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
The vid that e30ernest linked is excellent if you're into sci. I'm quite sure it's the best currently out there. However, if science isn't your thing, there's a pretty old, but still solid videoguide that gives more general piloting advice.
In addition, the guide by Qthulhu that was recently promoted by Cryptic themselves and featured in the game news (the same that meimeitoo linked) is a very valuable reading, as are the links to r/stobuilds wiki posted by alcaatraz in this thread.
Finally, I can just suggest watching videos made by various high DPSers, to see how they play.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I am going to disagree slightly on this. It does seem to be a bad design. Perhaps a common one, but that does not make it good.
There is little education built into the game to tell you that you have to build differently or that what you are doing now will not work later.
While I am grateful for the help on this forum. It should not be mandatory to go outside the game to learn how to even function at higher levels.
So on that idea I go back to one floated before. There should be a solo mission you have to beat by a certain score to play advanced and another for elite. Basically use the holodeck on Bajor from the 2800 series, as an example. You go in and select advanced borg. You drop into your ship and you have to try an make the optionals. This also gives a default mission that others may use to test designs. Just make the mission reward either nil or trivial beyond the unlock.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Sorry, but having random dead ends and red herrings in your build options is absolutely awful game design. Anyone with a basic understanding of excel could create a spreadsheet that makes sure all the various build options are normalized to the point where if you put the work in to get good items you don't wind up with something completely useless for no good reason. If they can't manage to make enemies challenging by any other means than just insane regeneration that you need to crack with raw DPS then just freaking normalize the DPS so people don't quit the game because they happen to enjoy tactics that are just arbitrarily not allowed to reach the level of DPS required to play endgame content.
I mean please, give me one good reason why a science carrier with heavy torpedo weaponry should be absolutely useless for elite content? What about that particular combination of weaponry and abilities makes it unworthy of being useful outside of story content? Why should people who enjoy that particular type of ship get screwed over?
Mind you, a friend of mine (sadly not in game anymore) had pretty good results with his torp-Jupiter. Yes, beams worked better even for him, obviously, but that's beside the point.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
That last problem is a staging one on your part. You can stop outside the 10km combat range and let your fighters catch up. Or bring them to dock. Or just launch new ones. You can begin to send them to attack from 15km. So why rush into the kill box in a carrier?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
The problem here is that the bar Cryptic set for player performance is already set really low for normal, and not that much higher for Advanced. The following is a parody video which contains some really bad builds, and yet they still managed to do fine in Normal and Advanced stuff:
One of them was even using FAW in a ship with no beams equipped. And yet they still all managed to break the threshold for Advanced content (at 10k and 20k on that ISA).
There are a bunch of things that factor into player (and ship) performance. While gear is certainly one of the factors, the person controlling the ship is a bigger factor. I was egging @tunebreaker and @mmps1 in our channel regarding that video since while they made a very good effort at making a bad build, their piloting still rescued an otherwise sub-par build.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Agreed.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Mm. A start. Unfortunately, my good sir, that is not nearly specific enough for our purposes. Go here, and fill this out, then post us the link:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/
I know it seems like a lot of work. But the more that we know, the better we can help you. As is, there is only so much advice that we can give with what we currently know. I am going to assume that you are using multiple Tricobalt Torpedoes since that seems to be the case here.
3 Torpedo Duty Officers is much better than one. That would give three 20% chance per shot to activate, sometimes all three at once. Unfortunately, I don't think that is applies to Cluster Torpedoes since they are officially Mines, and they don't share Torpedo Cooldown. There is also a variant that makes Tricobalt Torpedoes Fly Faster. Kimo, I think his name is. But I have not found them to be as useful as the Cooldown Duty Officer.
Adapted Omega (Fed)/ Honor Guard (Klingon) Reputation Set increases Torpedo Damage by 25%. A Two Piece combination from this and two from the Iconian Set are good for running Torpedo Boats.
Some Universal Consoles that are worth looking in to would be 'Sustained Radiant Field' from Iconian Reputation, 'Chronometric Capacitor' from the mission 'Time And Tide' , and 'Bioneural Infusion Circuits' from the Lobi Store.
If you are using a Carrier and sitting still while firing and using your Pets, consider picking up the 'Anchored' Trait off of the Exchange. It increases your dealty damage the longer that you are stationary
If you use regular Mines, grab the 'Hot Pursuit' Trait off of the Exchange. It will double their lock-on and chase range.
Naturally, the R&D Trait for leveling the Projectile School to 15 (whose name escapes me at the moment) is a must as it gives +10% Shield Penetration.
'Auxiliary Power Configuration' from the Nukara Reputation is good. It is even better if you are using a Torpedo Boat since you do not require Weapon Power and can shunt that into Auxiliary.
Consider using 'Energy Siphon' instead of 'Tachyon Beam'. It just does a better job of hurting the enemy's shields (and everything else), plus it powers you up. The Breen Ship Traits can make it even better.
Consider 'Tyken's Rift' instead of 'Gravity Well'. Coupled with 'Energy Siphon', your enemies won't have much, if any, shields to get in your way. Regardless of which you choose, there are Gravimetic Scientist Duty Officers that let you spawn multiple TRs or GWs.
Kemocite-Laced Weaponry, if you have a spare Ensign Tactical Slot, compliments the Tricobalt's area effect blasts nicely.
If you have access to the 'Unstable Anomalies' Starship Trait from the Paradox Temporal Dreadnought, it will make your rifts detonate in a 5 km explosion when they end.
And, of course, there is the simple 'Gravity Well' followed a few seconds later by 'Torpedo Spread' combo. The splash damage from a bunch of Tricobalts against several clustered ships is a beautiful sight to behold. I, personally, have gotten 250,000 damage hits with just that several times and am NOT a power gamer. It averages at about 100,000 to 125,000 per combo, though.
But it is not. A science carrier with (heavy) torpedo weapons is not useless. Science ships are not useless, regardless of whether they are using torpedoes or something else. That's what a lot of people are trying to explain here.
Basically this. That Gravity well can still be useful btw, you'll just need to prioritse the targets that are in the Gravity well for a change.
It seems that the problem here is regeneration. Simply shooting the enemies that help the others regenerate can easily solve the problem. That can be done with that gravity well in fact, personally I find Tyken's rift to be very useful against Tzenkethi. Or any other AoE ability such as a Torpedo spread. As long as you target the cruisers first with your main weapons and abilities and preferably in their front arc, there shouldn't be too much of a problem.
What you are calling Dead Ends the build junkies call opportunity to create a new build.
The game is intentionally complex. So complex that guys who have years of building experience are still creating new builds, or resurrecting builds from older incarnations of the game which now perform differently.
My main is a Tactical Bird of Prey hit-and-run raider. I decloak, blow stuff up until I'm targeted, and zip out of range before my shields fail. In this build my own piloting is the difference between success and respawn.
My second is an Engineering Warbird tank. He ain't going nowhere fast but he can regen faster than anything short of elite content, (or players,) can dish out. Piloting isn't important, but being in the right place at the right time is.
My first character is a Science Science Torp Boat. I can shield tank anything in game with him except other players, and I can hold them off for a while. Learning to fly the BoP almost doubled my damage output in this ship.
Now please don't take this the wrong way; I didn't get it at first either. But the truth is, virtually any build can see you through the episodes. Virtually any focused build can see you through Advanced content if you learn a little piloting. But Elite content requires synergy. Synergy between abilities, gear, and player capability.
When I was at your stage of development I ran headfirst into the vertical learning curve that every player encounters in STO once you hit level 50, and I raged. I used almost every argument you've presented and a few of my own to show how unfair the game was. I was attempting to break into PvP at the time, and most matches ended with me as 15 of the 15 required kills.
It was gear, it was hacks, it was everything except me because I had put hours of thought into my build and playstyle.
But I was fighting guys with end game experience, and the episodes do nothing to prepare you for that.Then a player with a similar chosen playstyle started to mentor me, and within days I became less incompetent. PvE became easy. So easy that it posed no real challenge, (to a guy who respawned his way through the Elachi story arc.)
What I learned is that STO has a metagame. Both ground and space combat are so complex that any chosen playstyle can be refined into builds which blow away Elite content. STFs aren't the end game content of STO, build diversity is, and some players are still drilling into that lode and finding gold.
This is a good thing. How many games have you played where there was only one end game style, and you were forced to conform to that meta to complete the game? Plus, how many of those games allowed you to play for five years and still be challenged? Plus, how many of those games had details you were still learning after five years of successful gameplay?
Please don't take this wrong, it is not intended to be an insult. In fact, it is the lesson I had to learn before I could begin to PvP: it is you. There is a great deal for you to learn, and you won't learn it on the forums. It's not something you can gradually learn unless you are willing to spend weeks parsing logs. It's something only other players can teach you. They are willing, but you have to ask.
And before you say it's bad game design, let me say that no other game out there offers the end game diversity of STO.
Fleets used to teach builds and tactics. Avoid vanity fleets by observing the fleet tags of ships you see in the queues. Players are a font of advice, but some is less than useful; watch those in your STF runs and ask them how they do what they do. The Science Channel, the DPS channels, and others are filled with players ready to advise and debate various build strategies and how to support those builds with your playstyle.
Finally, find a mentor. Find someone who is successful at what you want to do and talk to them. They can guide you up the learning cliff and teach you how to succeed, and then you can go on from there to refine and master your chosen playstyle.
Much obliged, I'll have a look at those. Although I confess I'd never heard of Cthulhu before today.
^ Excellent post!
30 seconds is a bit on the harsh side for an "average player". Unless you have kind of an all-epic build with specialized (lock box?) equipment. A couple of minutes it may take.
Once you reach 5 minutes though, there are two possibilities:
1) you are playing a specialized exotic/drain sci captain on a boat without sci seats and just crumped together some random beam weapons and consoles for this ship just to get the mastery. Relax, you will get the mastery and better times will come.
2) your strategy is off. If you're not doing that high of DPS (as in e. g. a case 1 scenario) you need to know about opponents abilities and why it helps to take out Tzenkethi cruisers first. Because yes, the support vessels can outheal your DPS on the bosses if you don't do enough DPS (or at least peak DPS) and ignore strategies.
However, this is the one mission I remember off the cuff right now where your allies actually do decent damage, so normally you should be fine (unlike say the Tzenkethi dreadnought in the previous episode, where you got hardly any help at all). If a battle takes "hours" something is clearly not tuned to perfection.
Generally speaking: even playing with only Mk XII drops (provided you get the right ones, but you probably will at this time in the storyline) your ship should be able to manage this.
Temporal Ambassador is bad enough with its build, but at least the Tholians roll over voluntarily. The annoying thing in these "fly a new ship" missions (Sphere of Influence also come to mind) is the messed up tray - and do I really want to spend 10 minutes on a one time build? So yeah, that part isn't the most enjoyable experience of STO.
and play style. I am sure that there are players that could jump into my ship right now and increase DPS by 50% if not more
> I posted about this kind of thing AGES ago, but there was no response.
> Indeed, each race should have a particular tactical style, but we just don't see that.
>
> For instance, Romulans in the shows were DEFINED by the cloaking device... yet here they NEVER use it. Fighting a Romulan should be like trying to fight a submarine. If they're going to have abilities and powers, they should be built around THAT tactical style, with lots of sensor jams, hidden mines, sensor decoys and hit and run tactics.
>
> Klingons are all about speed and forward firepower. They should be JOUSTERS, dropping off boarders as they whip past.
>
> I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
I totally agree with you! My romulan d'deridix should have 5 weapon mounts up front for that same decloaking surprise, in your face, engagement. That with the battle cloak would offset its poor maneuverability.
I've been pretty happy with the Klingon setups, but again 5 weapon mounts forward should be on every ship for that emphasis on forward firepower.
As for a carrier ship and endgame content, I can't really comment because I don't care for carriers, but I've found that every ship has its particular playing style and nailing it is key to success with the right gear. Perhaps a different playing strategy is needed.
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