All I can hear is "I don't know/don't want to know how to make an uber build, NERF EVERYONE!".
Someone, please call the waaaambulance.
Well I think the reason it's so unfocused is that the people whining don't know what to whine about, so they just whine. Personally..... I've seen plasma explosions deal 10k damage... recently. That's pretty ridiculous for a weapon proc that you can go off multiple times each time you hit an enemy with a weapon. Is that the ONLY reason? nah, but it's in the heap of balance issues somewhere.
What you refer as a toxic environment is merely identifying the cause of the problem: lag, latency and the resulting penalties for players since their map could not load fast enough due to someone throwing down a "mega stack".
No toxicity is in how players react to such things. Ranting about how DPSers are ruining the game doesn't help anything at all.
All I can hear is "I don't know/don't want to know how to make an uber build, NERF EVERYONE!".
Someone, please call the waaaambulance.
Well I think the reason it's so unfocused is that the people whining don't know what to whine about, so they just whine. Personally..... I've seen plasma explosions deal 10k damage... recently. That's pretty ridiculous for a weapon proc that you can go off multiple times each time you hit an enemy with a weapon. Is that the ONLY reason? nah, but it's in the heap of balance issues somewhere.
Come to think of it, we haven't had a kemocite topic in ages.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
you're misunderstanding me, Salazaar, I'm not so much attacking you, as attacking your position-which you've shifted to a rights thing. You started off with "Don't you DARE nurf My Stuffz!"
Those two things go hand-in-hand actually. Just look at the previous posts that I'm responding to. "The problem" according to them is the players and the combination of powers that they're using to get high numbers. The stance that they're just "too good" and are exploiters that ruin everyone else's experience is a toxic one. They don't ruin my experience. I will continue to assert that everyone's limitations are their own and not anyone else's fault. And that players should focus on improving themselves instead of bringing others down to their level.
Easiest solution: 80+k DPS crowd should stay out of PUG and only play premade.
You should just be happy that the high dpsers are carrying all the below average players through the advanced q's. Otherwise you would be failing all the optionals. If the low dps people would play in normal difficulty where they belong there would be less issues, but they join advanced hoping someone will carry them and they can get a better reward.
you're misunderstanding me, Salazaar, I'm not so much attacking you, as attacking your position-which you've shifted to a rights thing. You started off with "Don't you DARE nurf My Stuffz!"
Those two things go hand-in-hand actually. Just look at the previous posts that I'm responding to. "The problem" according to them is the players and the combination of powers that they're using to get high numbers. The stance that they're just "too good" and are exploiters that ruin everyone else's experience is a toxic one. They don't ruin my experience. I will continue to assert that everyone's limitations are their own and not anyone else's fault. And that players should focus on improving themselves instead of bringing others down to their level.
Easiest solution: 80+k DPS crowd should stay out of PUG and only play premade.
You should just be happy that the high dpsers are carrying all the below average players through the advanced q's. Otherwise you would be failing all the optionals. If the low dps people would play in normal difficulty where they belong there would be less issues, but they join advanced hoping someone will carry them and they can get a better reward.
More reason for the 80k+ crowd to only play premade.
It's the need for elite marks and the slightly higher rewards which drive low dps players (<10k DPS) into advanced queues.
Let the optionals fail because it might encourage the low dps players to pay attention. Losing optionals is preferable to the decapitating lag at this time.
A queue only needs one or two 20k players who know their stuff, anything above that only hinders the team.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
you're misunderstanding me, Salazaar, I'm not so much attacking you, as attacking your position-which you've shifted to a rights thing. You started off with "Don't you DARE nurf My Stuffz!"
Those two things go hand-in-hand actually. Just look at the previous posts that I'm responding to. "The problem" according to them is the players and the combination of powers that they're using to get high numbers. The stance that they're just "too good" and are exploiters that ruin everyone else's experience is a toxic one. They don't ruin my experience. I will continue to assert that everyone's limitations are their own and not anyone else's fault. And that players should focus on improving themselves instead of bringing others down to their level.
The large amount of stacking powers/buffs/debuffs has been identified in one of the podcasts as the main reason for the lag/latency in the game. By using those "mega stacks" the DPS gurus are in fact ruining the game experience for everyone.
Actually, Borticus found the source of all the lag that we had and it was due to the way debuffs were being calculated and the [pen] modifier not working as intended. He made a post on Reddit about this and the solution. The solution was implemented and alleviated a significant portion of lag. So this argument holds no water.
I am pretty sure most DPS people aren't there to selfishly take all the damage for themselves so the "lesser" players get stuck with penalties.
Could some of this be alleviated by talking to the team at the start and make them aware you need help to gain such and such marks? I should add...instead of getting AFK.
Or I could be wrong.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
you're misunderstanding me, Salazaar, I'm not so much attacking you, as attacking your position-which you've shifted to a rights thing. You started off with "Don't you DARE nurf My Stuffz!"
Those two things go hand-in-hand actually. Just look at the previous posts that I'm responding to. "The problem" according to them is the players and the combination of powers that they're using to get high numbers. The stance that they're just "too good" and are exploiters that ruin everyone else's experience is a toxic one. They don't ruin my experience. I will continue to assert that everyone's limitations are their own and not anyone else's fault. And that players should focus on improving themselves instead of bringing others down to their level.
The large amount of stacking powers/buffs/debuffs has been identified in one of the podcasts as the main reason for the lag/latency in the game. By using those "mega stacks" the DPS gurus are in fact ruining the game experience for everyone.
Actually, Borticus found the source of all the lag that we had and it was due to the way debuffs were being calculated and the [pen] modifier not working as intended. He made a post on Reddit about this and the solution. The solution was implemented and alleviated a significant portion of lag. So this argument holds no water.
The debuffs and pen were the main source at that time, but never the only one so the argument holds.
Every one of those buffs and debuffs has to be calculated and while the process has been streamlined, it still causes problems especially in queues with large initial spawns of NPC like ISA and CCA.
As for specific powers, currently the temporal stuff seems to wreck havoc/ cause lag. This is probably due to their new damage type (physical) and the nature of some powers (Save hitpoints at t=0 and subtract 40% of said amount after x seconds.)
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
My ships and builds all average around 12-15k. Which is more than good enough for any and all of the content in this game. Even the "Elite" levels, such as they are. I am nowhere near anything people would consider high end DPS. I stopped chasing DPS a very long time ago. There's a whole thread of my builds over in the Protonic Kool-Aid thread. Where I lay out my builds and why I put the things on them I did. STO Academy and Reddit STO Builds have a plethora of build by people who get better DPS than I do. Further, most of the people who posted these are glad to help by explaining how they did what they did and making suggestions about builds.
So the OP really has no one but himself to blame if he is terrible at playing STO. He also obviously expects other people to do the work for him. B@#&<>*t. And anyone who is defending his viewpoint? More B@#&<>*t. I sucked at this game four years ago. I stuck around and LEARNED TO PLAY. I did not make excuses when I was bad. I did not blame others for my sloppy play and poor choices. I watched and learned and asked questions and read. All of these are things each and every of us has access to. The OP expected to be the "bestest one evah! of all time! of all time". And when he was not, he pouted in public and other people rushed right in to comfort him. What a load of manure.
I wonder if the really truly high end DPS folks make up any more than a tiny fraction of the playerbase. The OP assumed incorrectly. Because he did not do his part and is publicly unwilling to accept the consequences of his actions.
How very Trump like of him. Even heard the voice of The Donald when I went back and read his post just now.
All this, "we hates the DPSers! We hates them foevah!" TRIBBLE is just that - TRIBBLE. Because that path leads to the mob turning on each of us and killing off this game. Forever. Do you want to do that? And people wonder why the Devs never come here.
Not really hard to figure out is it?
Some things most of the mob has forgotten in its blind unreasoning jealousy of others:
- The high end DPSers are playing the same STO as the rest of us.
- They do not have access to things and abilities the rest of us do not.
- They are not doing anything which someone else cannot replicate under the same circumstances with the same gear and ship.
- While not everyone has enough money or free time, it is possible to acquire nearly everything in this game to make a high DPS build. Rattler2 ground out enough Zen to purchase a Legacy of Romulus Pack. That's 16,000 Zen for those of you who can't do maths.
- Making the derogatory remark someone paid to win is a dirty underhanded cheap shot.
- Making the derogatory remark someone has no life outside of STO is a dirty underhanded cheap shot.
- Making the derogatory remark someone else's high DPS is ruining your game is a dirty underhanded cheap shot
- People who use any of the above are publicly displaying their own personal insecurities. They have problems much larger than getting a fake ship in a fake universe to fake kill other fake stuff.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Ok, i think it's all about Beam Array Fire at Will (BFAW).
That's incorrect. The one map that is cleared the fastest, is CCA. And that's the map that most typically has people say they couldn't get a shot in before it was done. THAT map is dominated by DPS that comes from kinetic and science sources. FAW lags behind in that map.
It's not Fire at Will causing the Crystaline Entity to die before you can get your ship in range.
The giant problem I think we have is that we are trying to find easy quick fixes, for a issue that has gotten worse over the years, and is not something simple or easy to fix at all. It might have been possible to fix the issue of stfs being far too easy/quick back when delta was released, but that was when delta was released an at this point much more has happened. Hence the level of complexity of the problem has increased, and so also has the needed fix's complexity increased to actually be anything more than a short term bad-aid fix.
To me the different difficulties could use a cap on the output that players can have going into them (for the most part talking infected space, cc, and such instances). So that even if a 50-100k dpser comes in, their output is reduced down to a level that allows the entire group to actually contribute more evenly. Also this allows the group the needed time an ability to actually learn the mechanics of the stfs, as honestly can you expect a group to learn the stf if it is being completed in even 2-5 mins without much needed assistance from the other party members. THis is part of why you get many wanting just to see the stfs have a single player version they can do, since they already can complete them in such a state anyways an the other players are merely a requisite for the instance/stf to launch to them.
To me the different difficulties could use a cap on the output that players can have going into them
In a way, we have such a cap. A Mk XIV, white, completely unmodified beam array does 270 DPS. And the "biggest" ships of the game, cruisers, can only mount 8 of these weapons.
I'm calculating that no "raw" ship, this means no traits, no consoles, no skills, no nothing, just gold weapons packing [DMG]x4 [Acc/Dam] is going to be able to "tooltip" higher than 2,520 DPS, at "standard" 50 weapons power. Tripling from having 125 weapons power, that's 7,560 DPS.
We all start here.
Personally, I find that the existence of enough external modifiers, skills, funky maths, whatever, that enable ships to reach 17x this "base" power level with regularity is... not right.
How do you balance a game when there's such... disparity... in the builds?
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
(for the most part talking infected space, cc, and such instances). So that even if a 50-100k dpser comes in,
What other such instances?
Have you all even parsed Gateway to Grethor? Or Borg Disconnected?
You're not cracking 100k in that map. Ever.
Oh I agree that you are not going to be breaking 100k in stfs that those, but how often are stfs like those actually qued an populated? It is also why I placed 50-100k in that post over purely 100k, as you might not get a 100k parse out of there you very well can get 50k parses in them, though the idea of placing a cap on dps output is more to get the payout/completion times of stfs that lend themselves to those high parses back in line with the other stfs, which can help to make the other stfs more viable a choice in the mind of players. For example if you saw the completion times of ISA go from 2-5 min to 5-15 mins, many players might look at the other instances as possible alternatives to it.
Though i think we have far too many active stfs in the game, and should have some way of having the number of active stfs culled down abit. Like a rotation that sees 5-10 stfs in the public que on a weekly or bi-weekly setup, and if you make sure that each rep has a stf to get their given mark in that would function quite well. Sometimes having a huge amount of choices can be counter-productive as the players might actually have a hard time making the choice, but when you give them a smaller yet still quite diverse set of choices they can make that choice much easier. Also it gives each stf time to shine an be enjoyed by the players, without players feeling they are wasting time in a stf that takes longer than another stf that gives the same reward.
I think that one overall fact that is often overlooked whenever these "it's too powerful" type threads appear is that there isn't just a single "goto" build or console or weapon but rather that it takes a combination of everything connected with outfitting a ship to produce the optimum build.
BOFF abilities, Active DOFF's (and having the correct triggers to activate their abilities), consoles, power settings etc - all these need to be in synergy to start with. Then you need to factor in player skill (or team skill).
Simply blaming high damage stats on a single ability is wrong and nerfing abilities will only lead to even more whining - it will not change the overall spread of where players are ranked in terms of damage, the top 10% will still be the top 10% and the bottom 10% will still be the bottom 10% regardless.
The main problem is that the two popular queues are popular for the speed of completion - players with multiple toons can quickly run through CCA and get either fleet marks to donate for fleet credit or nakura marks to stack for conversion to dil. CCA also gives a reward for finishing in the top 3 which can be converted to EC at a vendor. ISA is percieved as the goto place to parse and therefore compare your build to other players. The solution could be to introduce the rank/reward from CCA across the board or have a weekly featured queue that gives some sort of bonus reward on a daily basis - the mechanics are already in the game as most events such as mirror etc have the ability to do this, just make the reward something simple such as 500 dil or 50 marks of the players choice rather than a token to be collected.
imo the reason there's so much DPS is because NPC's barely pack a punch. Healing and resists/counters is barely worth thinking about so you just pile in all the damage related stuff you're able for boff skills, consoles and traits.
Keep player DPS were it is, that's a nerf minefield, but ramp up NPC dps and abilities, particularly in advanced and elite queues. Players would then have to weigh up their glass cannon high dps strategy versus survivability and staying power. NPC ships need more buff/heal powers imo.
Then things like Aceton and tachyon beams can make a resurgence in usefulness.
Each time you die and respawn an extra 20s should get added to your respawn timer to prevent that attitude of "oh I'll just blow up, it's quicker"
Oh I agree that you are not going to be breaking 100k in stfs that those, but how often are stfs like those actually qued an populated?
Grethor Advanced PUG pops quite frequently because the meta still offers the Iconian 4pc set as the standard (and even though there's other ways to get Ico marks, it's still pretty easy to just run that encounter). Borg Disco pops quite a bit too because it's easy and flexible, and it offers quite a lot of different marks for completion.
It just takes 4 to 5 minutes to pop. (Which is like 5 to 10 times the wait for CCA).
The Nak'hul Red Alert is also a very popular map because it offers every mark possible.
But what's not being considered is the actual numbers. All of the maps mentioned are time gated. You're not getting 50k in those maps either. Because of the artificial time gate. This is why the DPS benchmark is only good as a baseline indicator for your own performance in a set of variables. Your CCA DPS is NOT comparable to your ISA DPS. In much the same way your "Ragnaros" DPS was not comparable to your Onyxia DPS in a different MMO.
NOTE: For comparison's sake, my Tank build which topped out at 50k DPS in ISA, clocked a cool 3k DPS in Borg Disconnected last week (and a comparison to the rest of the group was meaningless due to the team being split for much of the encounter).
That's why chasing DPS isn't anywhere near the problem people think it is. Over 95% of this game's content is not team dependent. Of the content that is, it's mostly set up to be run with a very low bar for success. And all of these discussions about powers and the like hinge on PUGs running TWO maps that are very old content, or teams of people who are coordinated and built for performance running a handful of other maps. That's it. We're talking a tiny fraction of the game's actual content.
Think of it this way right, the last event we had was the Mirror Incursion. Nobody posted any parses from that event. Yet everyone, DPS chasers, non DPS chasers, well geared folks, whales, new players, poor geared folks, everyone, ran the event. Together. Before that, what was it, Risa? The summer event? No DPS numbers from the jet pack/hoverboard races!
And that's why this isn't a problem. It's a red herring. If you don't like the way DPS is in ISA? Don't run ISA. You can run so many other missions and so much other content in this game. And not need to click BFAW one single time. Or chart your performance ever again, or at all. A lot of posters here on this forum are quite vocal and proud of their never having parsed their performance in STO.
Each time you die and respawn an extra 20s should get added to your respawn timer to prevent that attitude of "oh I'll just blow up, it's quicker"
Death penalty does exist currently. And the timer did at one time do something like that. I haven't died enough recently to even remember if this still exists.
Each time you die and respawn an extra 20s should get added to your respawn timer to prevent that attitude of "oh I'll just blow up, it's quicker"
Death penalty does exist currently. And the timer did at one time do something like that. I haven't died enough recently to even remember if this still exists.
I honestly kinda liked the idea of having dying in space function a bit like dying on ground content. In that once you hit 0 hp you are disable (maybe with only the ability to use hull-healing abilities), but that you can be revived by another/ship come an assist you thru a revive ability.
Each time you die and respawn an extra 20s should get added to your respawn timer to prevent that attitude of "oh I'll just blow up, it's quicker"
Death penalty does exist currently. And the timer did at one time do something like that. I haven't died enough recently to even remember if this still exists.
Yeah I went in and checked, it is still that way, in which you have your respawn time increase as you die more often. Though more so I think the fact that in advanced an elite difficulties you gain a debuff as you die in the content, would be more of a actual death penalty than a increment to your respawn timer. Also these debuffs you need a specific item to get rid of them, or go to a med-bay or ship repair officer.
And not need to click BFAW one single time. Or chart your performance ever again, or at all. A lot of posters here on this forum are quite vocal and proud of their never having parsed their performance in STO.
Agreed many times over. I never parse myself when I play. I normally just play and be happy with it. I even ignore other people's good and bad gaming performance. When I do parse myself it is only for fun and just information for myself. Sometimes I just use Beam Overload for fun.
Now, I don't know why people parse in ISA or any other STF for that matter because you only add a number of unreliable parameters that significantly differ from each parsing and each person. I mean, wouldn't it be better to find a better and more solid standard that offers the same parameters for every player regardless of when it is run?
For example, when I parse myself or just try my own performance I always go to Tau Dewa. Usually I go to the Japori system to reduce the number of altering parameters even further because target behavior differ in the different systems. Sometimes I go with a passive friend to double the number of targets and then we take turns to see who does more damage and kill faster. Yes, the targets may die fast but you always have the same number of targets with each parse, and that kill time will be counted toward your DPS. You will be surprised how much more accurate doing DPS readings in Tau Dewa can be. It does not have to be Tau Dewa but it should be a system that offers a number of waves that you have to destroy.
Short version: We may be faced with more of a community problem than a mechanics problem.
This is all that needs to be said. Conversation over.
But I'll say this little bit:
Many people who play this game want to 'engineer' their way through it, make it into an optimization problem, that's unavoidable, it's the kind of person that gravitates to this sort of game. That style of play is not the problem, the problem is that those players play through the same STFs to test their builds, the easy ones, for the most part, the ones that low dps players want to play.
That's a player problem.
That's an 'engineer' player using a game map simply as a statistical performance metric, rather than as game content. The problem? Many of them don't care or understand why it's a problem. If they don't care, it's because they consider the possibility as an opportunity, without regard to the desires of their fellow players. If they don't understand, well, there's nothing you can't do about them, they're just not emotionally mature enough to realize the rammifications of what they're doing. Either way, they're a problem, but the fact that high DPS builds are possible is not the problem. There will always be high DPS builds; they change over time as the mechanics are tweaked, but they're always there, and game content is tweaked to adjust for the builds of the time based on the metrics the devs track.
"Intelligence is finite, stupidity is infinite" -- Umberto Eco
When I read first world problem threads like this one I can’t help but wishing for another Delta Rising.
Wouldn’t that be something? Those few 100-150kers team up exclusively to barley succeed in a premade while all the thousand other PvErs don’t even need to bother with teamed content because they fail anyway and won't get to play at all.
For every good player in STO there are like 10 bad ones. If you hate encountering good players in random matches form a premade of bad players and pve with them. There should be more than enough around to do so.
All is fair in love and pugs, grow up!
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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When I read first world problem threads like this one I can’t help but wishing for another Delta Rising.
Wouldn’t that be something? Those few 100-150kers team up exclusively to barley succeed in a premade while all the thousand other PvErs don’t even need to bother with teamed counted because they fail anyway and won't get to play at all.
For every good player in STO there are like 10 bad ones. If you hate encountering good players in random matches form a premade of bad players and pve with them. There should be more than enough around to do so.
All is fair in love and pugs, grow up!
That 1 to 10 ratio seems a bit high. I think you are being too kind. It's more like 1 to 50.
Agreed with the ratio.. 1 to 50 sounds more correct. Other then that, what @peterconnorfirst said is pretty accurate. We get threads like this all the time, and the answer is the same every time. If you want a specific experience in an STF then play that content with a pre made team of people that seek a similar experience. When you join a public queue of random players the team balance will be just that.. random. Complaining about the random nature of a public queue is silly enough, but to then go on to further complain that you get players that are too good and get upset that they guarantee your success is really just silly.
The only way to get a specific balance of team members is to pre-determine your team before starting the mission. Instead of asking for an alteration to the game, you'll have better luck either altering your methodology or your expectations.
The DPS league. The main reason team play died in STO. The power creep does well for sales. The player base keeps calling for more power creep.
The funny thing about this is. The powercreep is why we lost the old Borg Elites. They became "to hard" for those that focus on DPS. They required teamwork. Some people will tell you it's because they were buggy as hell. That's just an excuse. Those bugs were there long before the DPS league came about. The instant death from invisible whatevers. Been there, done that. My two original Fed characters, Tac and Sci, did them in the level 40 promotion ships. I have all the accolades and Mk X Kits to prove it. Then T5, T5U ships and fleet gear was introduced. The DPS league started, and suddenly, these Elites became "to hard."
I've said this before in other posts. The game is balanced. It's just balanced around Mk XII gear, the skill tree, and the level 40 promotion ships.
It isn't balanced around T5, T5U and T6 ships.
It isn't balanced around Mk XIV gear.
It isn't balanced around specialties.
It isn't balanced around Fleet gear.
The NPCs you face are just "stat blocks with abilities." Which, Cryptic's idea of balancing out the power creep is buffing that stat block. They have done this, only to find it out was a failed idea from the start.
With everything we have now. The majority of STO players got what they wanted. An easy mode, Star Trek themed action game.
We did not lose the Borg Elites. They were renamed Advanced. Maybe you forgot, but the game had only two difficulties for PvE Queued content, Normal and Elite. With Delta Rising, they renamed Elite to Advanced and introduced Elite.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Regarding solutions:
DPS Hard Cap. It's a non-starter. It will not be technically feasible to implement something like that. Can you name a single game that uses something like that? Bringing it up in any DPS discussion is pointless, it's not a solution that will ever be taken.
Nerfing certain abilities. Possiby.
I think a major source of weapon DPS is a combination of abilities.
One problem are for example energy levels - it's too easy to keep weapon power high (virtually at 125 at all times, even when doing full broadsides), which used to be a major weapon balance aspect actually. Nerfing the "cheap" energy buff methods like Plasmonic Leech could be a way to reign this in. Personally, I'd ditch the whole overcap concept, but I guess that isn't an option.
The Plasma Embassy consoles are also fundamentally flawed. If they were tactical consoles, they would be fine, but as science consoles, they allow a design space designed to buff one type of ability to buff a completeyl other type of ability. Bad idea. Just like Universal consoles.
The problem is with any of these nerfs is however that Cryptic knows how much resourcs people send on these - and telling these people. "Sucks to be you, all that money was wasted, you need to buy something else" is not something they are willing to do.
So I guess the next best thing they could do is delete all the old STFs and build new ones that fit current DPS values and current design concepts (like the mandatory time gates. They don't have all to be as bad as Mirror Invasion.) It seems that is kinda what they did on consoles, by the way - no Borg Reputation on consoles yet.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
what would be the impact to your build if, say, plasma consoles didn't stack? Or if you couldn't "Overcap" your energy weapons but instead ran against a hard wall?
I mean hypothetically, what change to the system would hit the High-End DPS'ers without basically savagely gutting the low-end players?
Feel free to answer honestly, it's not like anyone on Cryptic Staff is going to be reading any of this, much less reading it for ideas and content.
Since there was no response to this (or I may have missed it), I'll try to take a stab. Though a bit of a disclaimer, I am far from an expert on energy weapons builds, but I do have a basic understanding.
First, "Overcap". Technically, it does not exist because you can stack weapons power way above 125 and gain nothing from it. The most weapons boost you get from that is still 125. So in essence, there is a "hard wall".
What we call "Overcap" does is let you get back to that 125 power easier after your weapons fire and drain power. Because every point of weapons power above 125 doesn't go anywhere, it's still there and is used to refill that subsystem's level. This is where EPS comes into the DPS meta as it affects how much faster that power flows back in.
He's right in saying the actual effect of tactical consoles is minuscule. That is why one of the current highest DPS'ing ships for Feds right now is the Sci Oddy. It may not have that many tac consoles, but it makes it back through Sensor Analysis, Sci console slots and Sci power slots.
Which brings us to the Plasma Generating Consoles. Right now, they provide roughly 3k DPS each on average at epic Mk XIV. That's an example I am pulling from my Engineer (my only end-game kitted toon that uses FAW). That's way below what they used to provide (I remember runs with over 60k in Plasma Consoles back last year) but that is still enough to make them one of the most powerful consoles in the game right now.
Now the current DPS levels are brought about by multiple mechanics used to buff FAW. Let's start with defining the current "DPS meta" build.
The highest DPS ships right now are aggro/threat builds. They gain DPS by getting aggro from everything around the map at them.
They are mostly FAW ships. One might argue that cannons, torps and sci builds can also deal mega DPS, and they are right, but they nowhere near the levels attainable through FAW builds.
They are sci-beam hybrids.
They run Temporal and Strategist Spec trees (yes Intel and Pilot are now old news).
They are spec'ed to reduce weapons power cost.
Most run an Ultimate (usually Science Ultimate)
So how does that all work?
Why are they aggro builds? I refuse to call them "tanks" because most of them are not really geared to tank in the game (like in the old Hive). Instead, they use aggro to buff their own damage and survive by killing everything before they themselves die:
Getting shot at can be converted directly to DPS via FBP.
FBP via the IFBP trait buffs CrtH and CrtD, buffing their FBP and weapons damage as well.
Running with Threatening Stance on lets them use the free CD reduction from Attrition Warfare, part of the Strategist Tree. No need to waste trait slots for stuff like AHOD or Reciprocity now.
Running full on aggro makes it easier for tacs to get good GDF procs. This is made further stronger through the Temporal Spec (more on that later) as well as the Zahl Trait Invincible (O% HP GDFs FTW!).
Moving onto the Temporal Spec:
FAW ships tend to proc Entropic Rider more often (deals an additional DoT effect to target) which then proc's Atrophied Defenses (damage resistance reduction for stuff under a DoT effect). Entropic Rider is about 8-10k on my "canon" builds (only 6 beams). Full FAW setups will have higher gains (seen 10-15k from this from other players).
Most high-end FAW ships are also Sci hybrids to take full advantage of the Temporal Spec. The Temporal Spec gives you firing haste whenever you use an exotic ability through Temporal Crosswiring. Heck, that does not limit you to sci powers at all as well. There are a few that are now using Eng-heavy ships to proc Temporal Crosswiring through Eng skills like Endothermic Inhibitor Beam, Structural Integrity Collapse and Eject Warp Plasma. A full stack of Temporal Crosswiring will give you 20% firing cycle haste which stacks on top of other weapons cycle hastes like EWC, the Oddy consoles and Timeline Stabilizer. Note this only affects energy weapons, torpedoes do not benefit from Firing Cycle Haste. Haste and Power Cost Reduction are some of the biggest boosts to DPS right now.
Uncertainty helps to a certain extent (though not substantially) with survivability.
The Temporal Spec reduces CDs for exotic abilities which in turn helps with keeping Crosswiring up.
Continuity is the big one for Tacs. With proper timing, you can get back-to-back GDFs and APAs. You can reset GDF and APA CDs on the first group via Continuity, then take a 0% GDF when GDF is ready again through Invincible. This is one of the reasons why you see a huge jump in DPS numbers past AoY.
They are also stacking several methods to keeping power levels up:
Plasmonic Leech
Supremacy
Emergency Weapons Cycle (which also adds to Haste)
Now to the spec tree... Most high-DPS PUG runners use the Sci Ultimate for these reasons:
The Tac ultimate is more of a team oriented setup. Good for premades, but heavily investing in Tactical reduces survivability making them less powerful for PUGs.
The Sci ultimate requires you to invest heavily in Sci, which gives you several benefits which include, higher EPG numbers for more exotic damage (which loops back to the Temporal Spec), Flow Caps increase the power of your leech console, Long-Range Targeting sensors reduce weapons damage drop-off and Control Amplification adds a debuff to control powers (hence why you'll see more high-end ships running TBR on top of FBP).
Heavy investment into sci also helps with your ship's tankiness by buffing shields (helping aggro-builds).
Heavy investment into sci also helps with Sci cooldowns, again both directly helping direct DPS through exotic damage, and indirectly through Crosswiring.
Now for the Sci Ultimate itself, it locks your CrtH to 50%, which for Tacs running high CrtD numbers (via buffs like APA, IFBP and Weapon Modifiers) can make for some pretty high numbers. Each of those crits also debuffs the target (up to -25%) and increases your healing (useful for the aggro ship meta).
I probably missed a lot of of the mechanics involved, or may be downright wrong with some of the above. Again, I am not an expert in beam builds. But that is how the current high-DPS meta builds work.
Now above all that, there is piloting. Anyone can build something to use the above mechanics, but not everyone would be able to apply that effectively though a map. Buff timing, firing cycle management, maximizing arcs and minimizing time to target all make a difference.
The power-leap is not caused by any single thing. It's caused by multiple things that when stacked in the right way by a capable player deals a massive boost in performance. It's not caused by any single skill, or any single trait... It's how they all stack and interact with each other.
I do agree with @snoggymack22 that the problem may be well overstated due to them affecting 2 of the most popular maps most heavily.
ISA and CCA produce huge DPS numbers because they are fast. Those high-DPS players don't fly these maps, they follow a script. It's more like flying in an airshow vs flying a real dogfight. Both require good piloting, neither is more difficult than the other, but they involve a very different mindset. That's why snoggy was right in saying that you won't get 100k in all other maps. It's not only the timegates, it's how the other maps are flown in general. It's also why (most) people get lower parses in longer ISA and CCA runs.
We need real Elites now. You've got Elite level players flocking to Advanced STFs. That is pretty much like Advanced players flocking to Normal queues. Are their DPS outputs too much? Yes. But that's because they are playing in the wrong difficulty levels. It's like the analogy stated here on a pro-baller coming in and playing in a kiddie court. Bring out those Elites before you start nerfing stuff around.
IMO, nerfing stuff is probably not the right way to approach this increasing powercreep. I think the right approach is to buff NPC damage. Higher damage means players will have to invest more into survival especially if they want to make a threat-build. Right now, some of these threat builds rely on just a Hazard Emitters, some immunities and the Kobali Console. This is why the current official Solo-DPS testing map, DPS Mark, is played only in "Advanced". Playing it on "Elite" would require a substantial build change for most players. It's also probably why not a lot of people are trying their builds at DPS Under Fire, since that one is played on "Elite", and that pretty much requires a lot of survivability built into your ship.
what would be the impact to your build if, say, plasma consoles didn't stack? Or if you couldn't "Overcap" your energy weapons but instead ran against a hard wall?
I mean hypothetically, what change to the system would hit the High-End DPS'ers without basically savagely gutting the low-end players?
Feel free to answer honestly, it's not like anyone on Cryptic Staff is going to be reading any of this, much less reading it for ideas and content.
Since there was no response to this (or I may have missed it), I'll try to take a stab. Though a bit of a disclaimer, I am far from an expert on energy weapons builds, but I do have a basic understanding.
First, "Overcap". Technically, it does not exist because you can stack weapons power way above 125 and gain nothing from it. The most weapons boost you get from that is still 125. So in essence, there is a "hard wall".
What we call "Overcap" does is let you get back to that 125 power easier after your weapons fire and drain power. Because every point of weapons power above 125 doesn't go anywhere, it's still there and is used to refill that subsystem's level. This is where EPS comes into the DPS meta as it affects how much faster that power flows back in.
He's right in saying the actual effect of tactical consoles is minuscule. That is why one of the current highest DPS'ing ships for Feds right now is the Sci Oddy. It may not have that many tac consoles, but it makes it back through Sensor Analysis, Sci console slots and Sci power slots.
Which brings us to the Plasma Generating Consoles. Right now, they provide roughly 3k DPS each on average at epic Mk XIV. That's an example I am pulling from my Engineer (my only end-game kitted toon that uses FAW). That's way below what they used to provide (I remember runs with over 60k in Plasma Consoles back last year) but that is still enough to make them one of the most powerful consoles in the game right now.
Now the current DPS levels are brought about by multiple mechanics used to buff FAW. Let's start with defining the current "DPS meta" build.
The highest DPS ships right now are aggro/threat builds. They gain DPS by getting aggro from everything around the map at them.
They are mostly FAW ships. One might argue that cannons, torps and sci builds can also deal mega DPS, and they are right, but they nowhere near the levels attainable through FAW builds.
They are sci-beam hybrids.
They run Temporal and Strategist Spec trees (yes Intel and Pilot are now old news).
They are spec'ed to reduce weapons power cost.
Most run an Ultimate (usually Science Ultimate)
So how does that all work?
Why are they aggro builds? I refuse to call them "tanks" because most of them are not really geared to tank in the game (like in the old Hive). Instead, they use aggro to buff their own damage and survive by killing everything before they themselves die:
Getting shot at can be converted directly to DPS via FBP.
FBP via the IFBP trait buffs CrtH and CrtD, buffing their FBP and weapons damage as well.
Running with Threatening Stance on lets them use the free CD reduction from Attrition Warfare, part of the Strategist Tree. No need to waste trait slots for stuff like AHOD or Reciprocity now.
Running full on aggro makes it easier for tacs to get good GDF procs. This is made further stronger through the Temporal Spec (more on that later) as well as the Zahl Trait Invincible (O% HP GDFs FTW!).
Moving onto the Temporal Spec:
FAW ships tend to proc Entropic Rider more often (deals an additional DoT effect to target) which then proc's Atrophied Defenses (damage resistance reduction for stuff under a DoT effect). Entropic Rider is about 8-10k on my "canon" builds (only 6 beams). Full FAW setups will have higher gains (seen 10-15k from this from other players).
Most high-end FAW ships are also Sci hybrids to take full advantage of the Temporal Spec. The Temporal Spec gives you firing haste whenever you use an exotic ability through Temporal Crosswiring. Heck, that does not limit you to sci powers at all as well. There are a few that are now using Eng-heavy ships to proc Temporal Crosswiring through Eng skills like Endothermic Inhibitor Beam, Structural Integrity Collapse and Eject Warp Plasma. A full stack of Temporal Crosswiring will give you 20% firing cycle haste which stacks on top of other weapons cycle hastes like EWC, the Oddy consoles and Timeline Stabilizer. Note this only affects energy weapons, torpedoes do not benefit from Firing Cycle Haste. Haste and Power Cost Reduction are some of the biggest boosts to DPS right now.
Uncertainty helps to a certain extent (though not substantially) with survivability.
The Temporal Spec reduces CDs for exotic abilities which in turn helps with keeping Crosswiring up.
Continuity is the big one for Tacs. With proper timing, you can get back-to-back GDFs and APAs. You can reset GDF and APA CDs on the first group via Continuity, then take a 0% GDF when GDF is ready again through Invincible. This is one of the reasons why you see a huge jump in DPS numbers past AoY.
They are also stacking several methods to keeping power levels up:
Plasmonic Leech
Supremacy
Emergency Weapons Cycle (which also adds to Haste)
Now to the spec tree... Most high-DPS PUG runners use the Sci Ultimate for these reasons:
The Tac ultimate is more of a team oriented setup. Good for premades, but heavily investing in Tactical reduces survivability making them less powerful for PUGs.
The Sci ultimate requires you to invest heavily in Sci, which gives you several benefits which include, higher EPG numbers for more exotic damage (which loops back to the Temporal Spec), Flow Caps increase the power of your leech console, Long-Range Targeting sensors reduce weapons damage drop-off and Control Amplification adds a debuff to control powers (hence why you'll see more high-end ships running TBR on top of FBP).
Heavy investment into sci also helps with your ship's tankiness by buffing shields (helping aggro-builds).
Heavy investment into sci also helps with Sci cooldowns, again both directly helping direct DPS through exotic damage, and indirectly through Crosswiring.
Now for the Sci Ultimate itself, it locks your CrtH to 50%, which for Tacs running high CrtD numbers (via buffs like APA, IFBP and Weapon Modifiers) can make for some pretty high numbers. Each of those crits also debuffs the target (up to -25%) and increases your healing (useful for the aggro ship meta).
I probably missed a lot of of the mechanics involved, or may be downright wrong with some of the above. Again, I am not an expert in beam builds. But that is how the current high-DPS meta builds work.
Now above all that, there is piloting. Anyone can build something to use the above mechanics, but not everyone would be able to apply that effectively though a map. Buff timing, firing cycle management, maximizing arcs and minimizing time to target all make a difference.
The power-leap is not caused by any single thing. It's caused by multiple things that when stacked in the right way by a capable player deals a massive boost in performance. It's not caused by any single skill, or any single trait... It's how they all stack and interact with each other.
I do agree with @snoggymack22 that the problem may be well overstated due to them affecting 2 of the most popular maps most heavily.
ISA and CCA produce huge DPS numbers because they are fast. Those high-DPS players don't fly these maps, they follow a script. It's more like flying in an airshow vs flying a real dogfight. Both require good piloting, neither is more difficult than the other, but they involve a very different mindset. That's why snoggy was right in saying that you won't get 100k in all other maps. It's not only the timegates, it's how the other maps are flown in general. It's also why (most) people get lower parses in longer ISA and CCA runs.
We need real Elites now. You've got Elite level players flocking to Advanced STFs. That is pretty much like Advanced players flocking to Normal queues. Are their DPS outputs too much? Yes. But that's because they are playing in the wrong difficulty levels. It's like the analogy stated here on a pro-baller coming in and playing in a kiddie court. Bring out those Elites before you start nerfing stuff around.
IMO, nerfing stuff is probably not the right way to approach this increasing powercreep. I think the right approach is to buff NPC damage. Higher damage means players will have to invest more into survival especially if they want to make a threat-build. Right now, some of these threat builds rely on just a Hazard Emitters, some immunities and the Kobali Console. This is why the current official Solo-DPS testing map, DPS Mark, is played only in "Advanced". Playing it on "Elite" would require a substantial build change for most players. It's also probably why not a lot of people are trying their builds at DPS Under Fire, since that one is played on "Elite", and that pretty much requires a lot of survivability built into your ship.
Wow what a great sum up. As I spend most of my time on elite grounds the past few weeks I didn’t really catch up with the latest art in space combat.
Thanks for your post.
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First, "Overcap". Technically, it does not exist because you can stack weapons power way above 125 and gain nothing from it. The most weapons boost you get from that is still 125. So in essence, there is a "hard wall".
Good sum up, but note OSS does give you actual weapon power above the hard cap of 125, so does the suppliment subsystems console from the Yamato, up to 170 indicated, I think also re-route power from life support (command boff ability) but the latter has a nasty recharge cost iirc. Otherwise great and a good example of why it's not easy getting the best builds, it requires a lot of study and practise which is why I threw a tantrum about some sort of cap playing down to the lowest common denominator.
Good job.
Yeah I knew about OSS and other weapons power sources. I just decided not to include it here to keep from overcomplicating stuff.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
Come to think of it, we haven't had a kemocite topic in ages.
You should just be happy that the high dpsers are carrying all the below average players through the advanced q's. Otherwise you would be failing all the optionals. If the low dps people would play in normal difficulty where they belong there would be less issues, but they join advanced hoping someone will carry them and they can get a better reward.
More reason for the 80k+ crowd to only play premade.
It's the need for elite marks and the slightly higher rewards which drive low dps players (<10k DPS) into advanced queues.
Let the optionals fail because it might encourage the low dps players to pay attention. Losing optionals is preferable to the decapitating lag at this time.
A queue only needs one or two 20k players who know their stuff, anything above that only hinders the team.
Actually, Borticus found the source of all the lag that we had and it was due to the way debuffs were being calculated and the [pen] modifier not working as intended. He made a post on Reddit about this and the solution. The solution was implemented and alleviated a significant portion of lag. So this argument holds no water.
Could some of this be alleviated by talking to the team at the start and make them aware you need help to gain such and such marks? I should add...instead of getting AFK.
Or I could be wrong.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
The debuffs and pen were the main source at that time, but never the only one so the argument holds.
Every one of those buffs and debuffs has to be calculated and while the process has been streamlined, it still causes problems especially in queues with large initial spawns of NPC like ISA and CCA.
As for specific powers, currently the temporal stuff seems to wreck havoc/ cause lag. This is probably due to their new damage type (physical) and the nature of some powers (Save hitpoints at t=0 and subtract 40% of said amount after x seconds.)
So the OP really has no one but himself to blame if he is terrible at playing STO. He also obviously expects other people to do the work for him. B@#&<>*t. And anyone who is defending his viewpoint? More B@#&<>*t. I sucked at this game four years ago. I stuck around and LEARNED TO PLAY. I did not make excuses when I was bad. I did not blame others for my sloppy play and poor choices. I watched and learned and asked questions and read. All of these are things each and every of us has access to. The OP expected to be the "bestest one evah! of all time! of all time". And when he was not, he pouted in public and other people rushed right in to comfort him. What a load of manure.
I wonder if the really truly high end DPS folks make up any more than a tiny fraction of the playerbase. The OP assumed incorrectly. Because he did not do his part and is publicly unwilling to accept the consequences of his actions.
How very Trump like of him. Even heard the voice of The Donald when I went back and read his post just now.
All this, "we hates the DPSers! We hates them foevah!" TRIBBLE is just that - TRIBBLE. Because that path leads to the mob turning on each of us and killing off this game. Forever. Do you want to do that? And people wonder why the Devs never come here.
Not really hard to figure out is it?
Some things most of the mob has forgotten in its blind unreasoning jealousy of others:
- The high end DPSers are playing the same STO as the rest of us.
- They do not have access to things and abilities the rest of us do not.
- They are not doing anything which someone else cannot replicate under the same circumstances with the same gear and ship.
- While not everyone has enough money or free time, it is possible to acquire nearly everything in this game to make a high DPS build. Rattler2 ground out enough Zen to purchase a Legacy of Romulus Pack. That's 16,000 Zen for those of you who can't do maths.
- Making the derogatory remark someone paid to win is a dirty underhanded cheap shot.
- Making the derogatory remark someone has no life outside of STO is a dirty underhanded cheap shot.
- Making the derogatory remark someone else's high DPS is ruining your game is a dirty underhanded cheap shot
- People who use any of the above are publicly displaying their own personal insecurities. They have problems much larger than getting a fake ship in a fake universe to fake kill other fake stuff.
That's incorrect. The one map that is cleared the fastest, is CCA. And that's the map that most typically has people say they couldn't get a shot in before it was done. THAT map is dominated by DPS that comes from kinetic and science sources. FAW lags behind in that map.
It's not Fire at Will causing the Crystaline Entity to die before you can get your ship in range.
To me the different difficulties could use a cap on the output that players can have going into them (for the most part talking infected space, cc, and such instances). So that even if a 50-100k dpser comes in, their output is reduced down to a level that allows the entire group to actually contribute more evenly. Also this allows the group the needed time an ability to actually learn the mechanics of the stfs, as honestly can you expect a group to learn the stf if it is being completed in even 2-5 mins without much needed assistance from the other party members. THis is part of why you get many wanting just to see the stfs have a single player version they can do, since they already can complete them in such a state anyways an the other players are merely a requisite for the instance/stf to launch to them.
What other such instances?
Have you all even parsed Gateway to Grethor? Or Borg Disconnected?
You're not cracking 100k in that map. Ever.
In a way, we have such a cap. A Mk XIV, white, completely unmodified beam array does 270 DPS. And the "biggest" ships of the game, cruisers, can only mount 8 of these weapons.
I'm calculating that no "raw" ship, this means no traits, no consoles, no skills, no nothing, just gold weapons packing [DMG]x4 [Acc/Dam] is going to be able to "tooltip" higher than 2,520 DPS, at "standard" 50 weapons power. Tripling from having 125 weapons power, that's 7,560 DPS.
We all start here.
Personally, I find that the existence of enough external modifiers, skills, funky maths, whatever, that enable ships to reach 17x this "base" power level with regularity is... not right.
How do you balance a game when there's such... disparity... in the builds?
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Oh I agree that you are not going to be breaking 100k in stfs that those, but how often are stfs like those actually qued an populated? It is also why I placed 50-100k in that post over purely 100k, as you might not get a 100k parse out of there you very well can get 50k parses in them, though the idea of placing a cap on dps output is more to get the payout/completion times of stfs that lend themselves to those high parses back in line with the other stfs, which can help to make the other stfs more viable a choice in the mind of players. For example if you saw the completion times of ISA go from 2-5 min to 5-15 mins, many players might look at the other instances as possible alternatives to it.
Though i think we have far too many active stfs in the game, and should have some way of having the number of active stfs culled down abit. Like a rotation that sees 5-10 stfs in the public que on a weekly or bi-weekly setup, and if you make sure that each rep has a stf to get their given mark in that would function quite well. Sometimes having a huge amount of choices can be counter-productive as the players might actually have a hard time making the choice, but when you give them a smaller yet still quite diverse set of choices they can make that choice much easier. Also it gives each stf time to shine an be enjoyed by the players, without players feeling they are wasting time in a stf that takes longer than another stf that gives the same reward.
BOFF abilities, Active DOFF's (and having the correct triggers to activate their abilities), consoles, power settings etc - all these need to be in synergy to start with. Then you need to factor in player skill (or team skill).
Simply blaming high damage stats on a single ability is wrong and nerfing abilities will only lead to even more whining - it will not change the overall spread of where players are ranked in terms of damage, the top 10% will still be the top 10% and the bottom 10% will still be the bottom 10% regardless.
The main problem is that the two popular queues are popular for the speed of completion - players with multiple toons can quickly run through CCA and get either fleet marks to donate for fleet credit or nakura marks to stack for conversion to dil. CCA also gives a reward for finishing in the top 3 which can be converted to EC at a vendor. ISA is percieved as the goto place to parse and therefore compare your build to other players. The solution could be to introduce the rank/reward from CCA across the board or have a weekly featured queue that gives some sort of bonus reward on a daily basis - the mechanics are already in the game as most events such as mirror etc have the ability to do this, just make the reward something simple such as 500 dil or 50 marks of the players choice rather than a token to be collected.
Keep player DPS were it is, that's a nerf minefield, but ramp up NPC dps and abilities, particularly in advanced and elite queues. Players would then have to weigh up their glass cannon high dps strategy versus survivability and staying power. NPC ships need more buff/heal powers imo.
Then things like Aceton and tachyon beams can make a resurgence in usefulness.
Each time you die and respawn an extra 20s should get added to your respawn timer to prevent that attitude of "oh I'll just blow up, it's quicker"
Grethor Advanced PUG pops quite frequently because the meta still offers the Iconian 4pc set as the standard (and even though there's other ways to get Ico marks, it's still pretty easy to just run that encounter). Borg Disco pops quite a bit too because it's easy and flexible, and it offers quite a lot of different marks for completion.
It just takes 4 to 5 minutes to pop. (Which is like 5 to 10 times the wait for CCA).
The Nak'hul Red Alert is also a very popular map because it offers every mark possible.
But what's not being considered is the actual numbers. All of the maps mentioned are time gated. You're not getting 50k in those maps either. Because of the artificial time gate. This is why the DPS benchmark is only good as a baseline indicator for your own performance in a set of variables. Your CCA DPS is NOT comparable to your ISA DPS. In much the same way your "Ragnaros" DPS was not comparable to your Onyxia DPS in a different MMO.
NOTE: For comparison's sake, my Tank build which topped out at 50k DPS in ISA, clocked a cool 3k DPS in Borg Disconnected last week (and a comparison to the rest of the group was meaningless due to the team being split for much of the encounter).
That's why chasing DPS isn't anywhere near the problem people think it is. Over 95% of this game's content is not team dependent. Of the content that is, it's mostly set up to be run with a very low bar for success. And all of these discussions about powers and the like hinge on PUGs running TWO maps that are very old content, or teams of people who are coordinated and built for performance running a handful of other maps. That's it. We're talking a tiny fraction of the game's actual content.
Think of it this way right, the last event we had was the Mirror Incursion. Nobody posted any parses from that event. Yet everyone, DPS chasers, non DPS chasers, well geared folks, whales, new players, poor geared folks, everyone, ran the event. Together. Before that, what was it, Risa? The summer event? No DPS numbers from the jet pack/hoverboard races!
And that's why this isn't a problem. It's a red herring. If you don't like the way DPS is in ISA? Don't run ISA. You can run so many other missions and so much other content in this game. And not need to click BFAW one single time. Or chart your performance ever again, or at all. A lot of posters here on this forum are quite vocal and proud of their never having parsed their performance in STO.
Death penalty does exist currently. And the timer did at one time do something like that. I haven't died enough recently to even remember if this still exists.
My character Tsin'xing
Yeah I went in and checked, it is still that way, in which you have your respawn time increase as you die more often. Though more so I think the fact that in advanced an elite difficulties you gain a debuff as you die in the content, would be more of a actual death penalty than a increment to your respawn timer. Also these debuffs you need a specific item to get rid of them, or go to a med-bay or ship repair officer.
Agreed many times over. I never parse myself when I play. I normally just play and be happy with it. I even ignore other people's good and bad gaming performance. When I do parse myself it is only for fun and just information for myself. Sometimes I just use Beam Overload for fun.
Now, I don't know why people parse in ISA or any other STF for that matter because you only add a number of unreliable parameters that significantly differ from each parsing and each person. I mean, wouldn't it be better to find a better and more solid standard that offers the same parameters for every player regardless of when it is run?
For example, when I parse myself or just try my own performance I always go to Tau Dewa. Usually I go to the Japori system to reduce the number of altering parameters even further because target behavior differ in the different systems. Sometimes I go with a passive friend to double the number of targets and then we take turns to see who does more damage and kill faster. Yes, the targets may die fast but you always have the same number of targets with each parse, and that kill time will be counted toward your DPS. You will be surprised how much more accurate doing DPS readings in Tau Dewa can be. It does not have to be Tau Dewa but it should be a system that offers a number of waves that you have to destroy.
This is all that needs to be said. Conversation over.
But I'll say this little bit:
Many people who play this game want to 'engineer' their way through it, make it into an optimization problem, that's unavoidable, it's the kind of person that gravitates to this sort of game. That style of play is not the problem, the problem is that those players play through the same STFs to test their builds, the easy ones, for the most part, the ones that low dps players want to play.
That's a player problem.
That's an 'engineer' player using a game map simply as a statistical performance metric, rather than as game content. The problem? Many of them don't care or understand why it's a problem. If they don't care, it's because they consider the possibility as an opportunity, without regard to the desires of their fellow players. If they don't understand, well, there's nothing you can't do about them, they're just not emotionally mature enough to realize the rammifications of what they're doing. Either way, they're a problem, but the fact that high DPS builds are possible is not the problem. There will always be high DPS builds; they change over time as the mechanics are tweaked, but they're always there, and game content is tweaked to adjust for the builds of the time based on the metrics the devs track.
Wouldn’t that be something? Those few 100-150kers team up exclusively to barley succeed in a premade while all the thousand other PvErs don’t even need to bother with teamed content because they fail anyway and won't get to play at all.
For every good player in STO there are like 10 bad ones. If you hate encountering good players in random matches form a premade of bad players and pve with them. There should be more than enough around to do so.
All is fair in love and pugs, grow up!
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Agreed with the ratio.. 1 to 50 sounds more correct. Other then that, what @peterconnorfirst said is pretty accurate. We get threads like this all the time, and the answer is the same every time. If you want a specific experience in an STF then play that content with a pre made team of people that seek a similar experience. When you join a public queue of random players the team balance will be just that.. random. Complaining about the random nature of a public queue is silly enough, but to then go on to further complain that you get players that are too good and get upset that they guarantee your success is really just silly.
The only way to get a specific balance of team members is to pre-determine your team before starting the mission. Instead of asking for an alteration to the game, you'll have better luck either altering your methodology or your expectations.
We did not lose the Borg Elites. They were renamed Advanced. Maybe you forgot, but the game had only two difficulties for PvE Queued content, Normal and Elite. With Delta Rising, they renamed Elite to Advanced and introduced Elite.
DPS Hard Cap. It's a non-starter. It will not be technically feasible to implement something like that. Can you name a single game that uses something like that? Bringing it up in any DPS discussion is pointless, it's not a solution that will ever be taken.
Nerfing certain abilities. Possiby.
I think a major source of weapon DPS is a combination of abilities.
One problem are for example energy levels - it's too easy to keep weapon power high (virtually at 125 at all times, even when doing full broadsides), which used to be a major weapon balance aspect actually. Nerfing the "cheap" energy buff methods like Plasmonic Leech could be a way to reign this in. Personally, I'd ditch the whole overcap concept, but I guess that isn't an option.
The Plasma Embassy consoles are also fundamentally flawed. If they were tactical consoles, they would be fine, but as science consoles, they allow a design space designed to buff one type of ability to buff a completeyl other type of ability. Bad idea. Just like Universal consoles.
The problem is with any of these nerfs is however that Cryptic knows how much resourcs people send on these - and telling these people. "Sucks to be you, all that money was wasted, you need to buy something else" is not something they are willing to do.
So I guess the next best thing they could do is delete all the old STFs and build new ones that fit current DPS values and current design concepts (like the mandatory time gates. They don't have all to be as bad as Mirror Invasion.) It seems that is kinda what they did on consoles, by the way - no Borg Reputation on consoles yet.
Since there was no response to this (or I may have missed it), I'll try to take a stab. Though a bit of a disclaimer, I am far from an expert on energy weapons builds, but I do have a basic understanding.
First, "Overcap". Technically, it does not exist because you can stack weapons power way above 125 and gain nothing from it. The most weapons boost you get from that is still 125. So in essence, there is a "hard wall".
What we call "Overcap" does is let you get back to that 125 power easier after your weapons fire and drain power. Because every point of weapons power above 125 doesn't go anywhere, it's still there and is used to refill that subsystem's level. This is where EPS comes into the DPS meta as it affects how much faster that power flows back in.
He's right in saying the actual effect of tactical consoles is minuscule. That is why one of the current highest DPS'ing ships for Feds right now is the Sci Oddy. It may not have that many tac consoles, but it makes it back through Sensor Analysis, Sci console slots and Sci power slots.
Which brings us to the Plasma Generating Consoles. Right now, they provide roughly 3k DPS each on average at epic Mk XIV. That's an example I am pulling from my Engineer (my only end-game kitted toon that uses FAW). That's way below what they used to provide (I remember runs with over 60k in Plasma Consoles back last year) but that is still enough to make them one of the most powerful consoles in the game right now.
Now the current DPS levels are brought about by multiple mechanics used to buff FAW. Let's start with defining the current "DPS meta" build.
So how does that all work?
Why are they aggro builds? I refuse to call them "tanks" because most of them are not really geared to tank in the game (like in the old Hive). Instead, they use aggro to buff their own damage and survive by killing everything before they themselves die:
Moving onto the Temporal Spec:
They are also stacking several methods to keeping power levels up:
Now to the spec tree... Most high-DPS PUG runners use the Sci Ultimate for these reasons:
I probably missed a lot of of the mechanics involved, or may be downright wrong with some of the above. Again, I am not an expert in beam builds. But that is how the current high-DPS meta builds work.
Now above all that, there is piloting. Anyone can build something to use the above mechanics, but not everyone would be able to apply that effectively though a map. Buff timing, firing cycle management, maximizing arcs and minimizing time to target all make a difference.
The power-leap is not caused by any single thing. It's caused by multiple things that when stacked in the right way by a capable player deals a massive boost in performance. It's not caused by any single skill, or any single trait... It's how they all stack and interact with each other.
I do agree with @snoggymack22 that the problem may be well overstated due to them affecting 2 of the most popular maps most heavily.
ISA and CCA produce huge DPS numbers because they are fast. Those high-DPS players don't fly these maps, they follow a script. It's more like flying in an airshow vs flying a real dogfight. Both require good piloting, neither is more difficult than the other, but they involve a very different mindset. That's why snoggy was right in saying that you won't get 100k in all other maps. It's not only the timegates, it's how the other maps are flown in general. It's also why (most) people get lower parses in longer ISA and CCA runs.
We need real Elites now. You've got Elite level players flocking to Advanced STFs. That is pretty much like Advanced players flocking to Normal queues. Are their DPS outputs too much? Yes. But that's because they are playing in the wrong difficulty levels. It's like the analogy stated here on a pro-baller coming in and playing in a kiddie court. Bring out those Elites before you start nerfing stuff around.
IMO, nerfing stuff is probably not the right way to approach this increasing powercreep. I think the right approach is to buff NPC damage. Higher damage means players will have to invest more into survival especially if they want to make a threat-build. Right now, some of these threat builds rely on just a Hazard Emitters, some immunities and the Kobali Console. This is why the current official Solo-DPS testing map, DPS Mark, is played only in "Advanced". Playing it on "Elite" would require a substantial build change for most players. It's also probably why not a lot of people are trying their builds at DPS Under Fire, since that one is played on "Elite", and that pretty much requires a lot of survivability built into your ship.
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Wow what a great sum up. As I spend most of my time on elite grounds the past few weeks I didn’t really catch up with the latest art in space combat.
Thanks for your post.
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Yeah I knew about OSS and other weapons power sources. I just decided not to include it here to keep from overcomplicating stuff.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Luckily, Cryptic caters the gameplay to those that pay their bills and not those that whine on the forums about how they can't be the best for free.