The Barrens
An area of space spanning one hundred light years in which there are no stars, The Barrens are a subspace node of curved space-time. It was used for experiments in sub-quantum transporter technology in the early 22nd Century before it was decided to be a fundamentally flawed concept. It's relatively close to the Sol System as it was used for experiments well before the launch of the NX-01 Enterprise, United Earth's first Warp 5 starship. I'm rather surprised that the area wasn't used by the likes of the Elachi or Solanae since it the separation between normal space and subspace appears to be thinner there.
It occurs to me that if The Barrens are in the Alpha Quadrant to the 'west' of the Sol System, it might explain why it took so long for Earth to come into contact with the likes of the Ferengi, Bajorans and Cardassians. With that large a gap of stars, The Barrens might have acted to slow exploration in the direction of the Alpha Quadrant as opposed to the Beta Quadrant with the Romulans, Klingons, Tholians and Gorn.
Enh, Soval was the only source for the claim that it was 2000 ly in some way.
But later Daniels mentioned it grew to encompass fifty thousand light years.... But THAT measurement isn't the width, and seems to be more like a cubic measurement. 2000 ly as a cubic measure would make a 10x10x20 box. Not that big.
People had that same theory about the delphic expanse as well, but it was later proven wrong.
The problem with ENT was that it was known for getting all its number wrong, like the claim that the Delphic expanse was 2,000 light years across, which is far larger then the entirety of known space in Star Trek, and had to be rationalized that the Delphic Expanse was thin, but very tall.
The biggest reason why it took so long encounter those species is because space isn't flat. The Federation likely flew over or under the space several of those races had visited, without encountering them.
100 LYs is far smaller than 2000 LYs, and I highly doubt the Vulcans of the time took the time to map the entire boundary of the thermobaric cloud surrounding the Delphic Expanse. As was stated repeatedly during that series, the Vulcans of the High Command era weren't explorers. Likely they measured a portion of it and extrapolated, but the shape was likely more irregular than they knew. It could have been much smaller in reality. Archer's Enterprise only made its way through a small portion of what would have been 2000 LYs and successfully found the Xindi and the main sphere of the network. But I digress.
Earth used The Barrens for those transporter experiments when they were still trying to break the Warp 2 barrier. That means that it must be relatively close to Sol. Even a ship like Voyager in the 24th Century would take approximately a little over a month to cross 100 LYs - if it's even 100 LYs across - it would take a 22nd Century ship much longer. It could be that it was an obstacle not worth crossing up until the early 24th Century when warp technology made it a much shorter journey and relative peace with both the Romulans - after the Tomed Incident - and Klingons - after the Khitomer Accords - allowed Starfleet to begin probing through the Barrens and into the space beyond. Likely they built a starbase or two along the way.
I fully understand that space isn't flat, but it's still relatively flat along a galactic plane. It's only a few thousand LYs thick compared to 100,000 LYs across.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Well, find a place for it on the map that makes sense
See that space between Barnard's Star and Vega to the northwest of Sol? That could be the location of the Barrens. Memory Alpha even states that Vega colony is located less than ninety LYs from Sol, and the Barrens aren't necessarily 100 LYs across, they could be 100 square LYs in area, along the galactic plane and up and down away from it. Memory Alpha even states that Vega colony was located on the frontier of known space for decades, which makes sense if the Barrens were in the way with no systems or existing infrastructure of starbases.
It occurs to me that if The Barrens are in the Alpha Quadrant to the 'west' of the Sol System, it might explain why it took so long for Earth to come into contact with the likes of the Ferengi, Bajorans and Cardassians. With that large a gap of stars, The Barrens might have acted to slow exploration in the direction of the Alpha Quadrant as opposed to the Beta Quadrant with the Romulans, Klingons, Tholians and Gorn.
People had that same theory about the delphic expanse as well, but it was later proven wrong.
The problem with ENT was that it was known for getting all its number wrong, like the claim that the Delphic expanse was 2,000 light years across, which is far larger then the entirety of known space in Star Trek, and had to be rationalized that the Delphic Expanse was thin, but very tall.
That isn't anywhere near the "entirety of known space in Star Trek." First Contact quoted the Federation alone at 8,000 ly.
The real problem with the size is it isn't visible from anywhere else. At that size, the brightly glowing thermobaric cloud should be prominently visible from everywhere.
concidering General Order 7,if we can ignore the classified nature of the guardian of forever,and the restrictions on the use of time travel,perhaps we can also ignore
General Order 7 too..........
Maybe we're the ones enforcing General Order 7. Come to Talos IV, get murdered by the player.
See that space between Barnard's Star and Vega to the northwest of Sol? That could be the location of the Barrens. Memory Alpha even states that Vega colony is located less than ninety LYs from Sol, and the Barrens aren't necessarily 100 LYs across, they could be 100 square LYs in area, along the galactic plane and up and down away from it. Memory Alpha even states that Vega colony was located on the frontier of known space for decades, which makes sense if the Barrens were in the way with no systems or existing infrastructure of starbases.
Possible, but we know that the Federation had a trade route with Denobula Triaxa as far back as Enterprise, and we know Denobula Triaxa had a trade route to Fellebia as far back then as well. And that sector is literally catacorner(to the south east) to the Ferengi system.
Except that Denombula Triaxa is in another direction with Tellar Prime along the way. It isn't quite as far a jump as Sol to Vega. Besides that, there's a fairly large gap between Fellebia and Fereginar, way larger than the one between Sol and Vega. The only routes out that far would be through the Barrens - which was prohibitively expensive for decades - or at the end of a long circuitous route via Denobula Triaxa. And that's when Starfleet was facing the ever present threats of the Klingons and Romulans closer to their core worlds. It makes sense that Vega and Fellebia were the edge of known space for so long while Starfleet kept most of its ships exploring the Beta Quadrant while keeping them in the same general area as their two main rivals in case a major conflict broke out. It was only after the Tomed Incident and Khitomer Accords that Starfleet could relax enough in the 24th Century to go exploring in the Alpha Quadrant in greater detail, leading the Picard's encounter with the Ferengi at Maxia and contact with the Cardassians and the subsequent Border Wars.
So they were literally right next to them as far back as ENT, and in ToS they had gone even further then that, but still never made official contact with them. IIRC, there is even an episode where they find a planet in ENT that mentions doing trading with the Ferengi, and everyone is like "whats a Ferengi". So the Federation had found planets that traded with the Ferengi over 200 years before they actually met the Ferengi.
Boomers found a slew of worlds before Starfleet found them. They also rarely shared their discoveries, or their ships were lost before they could. Travis Mayweather's home ship the Horizon found Sigma Iotia II in the mid 22nd Century, leaving behind 'Chicago Mobs of the Twenties', and it wasn't officially discovered by Starfleet until a full century later. They also discovered the Deltans before Enterprise was even launched.
It's also likely that the Ferengi that the the planet Valakis met was the same marauder crew who tried to raid Archer's Enterprise later on, especially since one of those Ferengi mentioned the Menk from Valakis. Not traders, but probably an, ah, enterprising crew of Ferengi who went much further out from Ferenginar then any Ferengi had before and wouldn't again for centuries. Those Ferengi hadn't even heard of Vulcans before, and the Vulcans were the top regional power of that section of the galaxy for centuries before that. Ulis and his crew were probably the equivalent of Marco Polo or Francis Drake, traveling much further afield than their contemporaries in search of new trade routes and not above some piracy along the way, though in service to personal profit rather than the Ferengi flag or the equivalent thereof. When they got back, all they could say was that they found little latinum, not much loot, and the idea for a holoprogram that would be popular much later.
This is why I feel like trying to rationalize first contact with species is fairly pointless. Star Trek isn't real, its made by people. And people can't know everything they would possibly want to add in the future when first making it. Species first contact is decided by nothing more then author whim. Any in-universe reason as to why it took so long is simply "space is big, and they missed them"
Star Trek offers a whole jigsaw puzzle of pieces that can fit together if you arrange them the right way. That's a big part of the fun of paying attention to Star Trek canon. Just waving it all off and simply stating 'It's not real' or 'space is big' seems both lazy and boring. Some of the better Star Trek novels I've read dealt with them taking various apparently unrelated facets of different episodes and movies and connecting them together in a narrative that's both logical and entertaining.
That isn't anywhere near the "entirety of known space in Star Trek." First Contact quoted the Federation alone at 8,000 ly.
That's the total cubic area of the Federation, not any singular measurement of length/width as I was talking about with the reference to the statement that the Delphic expanse was 2,000 light years across in ENT.
1. Picard did not say cubic lightyears.
2. A 8,000 ly³ volume would only be 20 lightyears to a side (if its cube-shaped) or 24.8 lightyears in diameter (if it's sphere-shaped). That's ridiculously small.
3. The density of stars in our area of the galaxy is estimated to be 0.004 stars per cubic lightyear. Given 8,000 ly³, that would be 32 stars. It's extremely unlikely if not impossible for the also quoted 150 member worlds to all be orbiting only 32 stars. Especially since all the star systems shown on screen have one, maybe two habitable planets, if any.
1. Picard did not say cubic lightyears.
2. A 8,000 ly³ volume would only be 20 lightyears to a side (if its cube-shaped) or 24.8 lightyears in diameter (if it's sphere-shaped). That's ridiculously small.
3. The density of stars in our area of the galaxy is estimated to be 0.004 stars per cubic lightyear. Given 8,000 ly³, that would be 32 stars. It's extremely unlikely if not impossible for the also quoted 150 member worlds to all be orbiting only 32 stars. Especially since all the star systems shown on screen have one, maybe two habitable planets, if any.
1. I don't really care what Picard did or didn't say. Star Trek writers were never known for being consistent.
2. Star Trek is not real life, you can quote real life star density until you are blue in the face, but that doesn't mean jack for Star Trek.
3. A collection of people who made much of the art and background stuff on the show agree on 8,000 light years cubed area as seen in the pic I linked in this post.
And I don't really care what your collection of people who clearly don't know what a cubic lightyear is agree on, Picard's quote is the canon one. That it's also the one that makes sense is a nice bonus.
EDIT: Also note, 8,000 lightyears cubed is not the same thing as 8,000 cubic lightyears.
And I don't really care what your collection of people who clearly don't know what a cubic lightyear is agree on, Picard's quote is the canon one. That it's also the one that makes sense is a nice bonus.
EDIT: Also note, 8,000 lightyears cubed is not the same thing as 8,000 cubic lightyears.
Except it doesn't really make sense as that would make the Federation far larger then its shown to be in the TV shows, which is why no one takes the idea that its 8,000 light years across seriously.
at 8,000 light years across it would take years to get from side of the Federation to the other, when it only takes a few months, if not weeks, at most.
How large is it shown to be in the TV shows? It's not. It's size has only ever been talked about, and to my knowledge Picard's 8,000 ly quote is not contradicted. Usually people talk about the number of members or planets (which, again, support the 8,000 ly distance rather than an 8,000 ly³ volume).
How fast are the ships? As fast as they need to be. Speeds, travel times and distances are rarely given. The few times when they are, the results are not consistent.
For that matter, I don't recall any incident in which a ship did fly all the way from one side of the Federation to the other on screen, or mention of how long it's supposed to take either. What I do remember is a lot of incidents in which the Enterprise is the only ship in range.
What's the big deal about violating General Order 7? The Canon Characters and we routinely violate the PRIME Directive. So, what. Since we last met the Talosians we met the Undine and shrugged off their Psi effects, met the Borg and slaughter them like cordwood.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
We shouldn't rely on series maps, since they're outdated. Other than that, we could add stuff like the Fabrini's post-asteroid home, Cestus colony(with a memorial, and bb diamond somewhere), or other TOS colonies.
Its stated in Deep Space 9 that
A. Cestus III was on the other side of the Federation from DS9
B. It would take 8 weeks at the SS Xhosa's maximum warp to reach Cestus III
Even if we assume the Xhosa could somehow maintain a constant warp as fast as Voyager, which is highly unlikely given how small it was, that still makes the federation MUCH smaller then 8000 LY across.
No, it really doesn't. Because "maximum warp" doesn't actually mean anything.
And of course, nobody ever said the Federation was a perfect sphere, so it could be thinner in some places and wider in others. The quote only specifies its 8,000 ly at some point.
It also took Voyager a full year to get 438 light years, while going in as much of a straight line as they could through the Delta quadrant. If the Federation was 8,000 LY across, it would take Voyager 18.26 years at maximum sustainable warp to get from one side to the other, which is obviously not true.
Yes, because one ship stranded in the middle of nowhere having to trade or scavenge for supplies, evade or fight various hostiles and generally engage in all kinds of adventures is of course the very model of fast travel.
Nor did Voyager ever use maximum sustainable warp outside emergencies anyway, preferring to plod along at warp 6 or something most of the time...likely to conserve fuel.
Also, [citation needed].
Not to mention how quickly the NX was able to reach Klingon Space in Enterprise, despite its slow speed.
So Earth is close to the Klingon border. What's the point?
While the shows may not be consistent, none of them show traversing 8,000 light years as being doable in any reasonable amount of time.
Sure they do. Like in ST5 when they take a trip to the center of the galaxy.
What I do remember is a lot of incidents in which the Enterprise is the only ship in range.
ToS also said the Enterprise was the only ship in the quadrant tons of times, despite that not making any sense.
If you'd done your research you'd know that the galaxy isn't the only thing that gets divided into quadrants in Star Trek. And it isn't just a quirk of TOS, either.
How fast are the ships? As fast as they need to be. Speeds, travel times and distances are rarely given. The few times when they are, the results are not consistent.
And despite admitting this, you are willing to take Picard's distance as being valid because?
Why wouldn't I? Should I expect Picard to lie about it? For what purpose?
Comments
-.-
Enh, Soval was the only source for the claim that it was 2000 ly in some way.
But later Daniels mentioned it grew to encompass fifty thousand light years.... But THAT measurement isn't the width, and seems to be more like a cubic measurement. 2000 ly as a cubic measure would make a 10x10x20 box. Not that big.
My character Tsin'xing
Earth used The Barrens for those transporter experiments when they were still trying to break the Warp 2 barrier. That means that it must be relatively close to Sol. Even a ship like Voyager in the 24th Century would take approximately a little over a month to cross 100 LYs - if it's even 100 LYs across - it would take a 22nd Century ship much longer. It could be that it was an obstacle not worth crossing up until the early 24th Century when warp technology made it a much shorter journey and relative peace with both the Romulans - after the Tomed Incident - and Klingons - after the Khitomer Accords - allowed Starfleet to begin probing through the Barrens and into the space beyond. Likely they built a starbase or two along the way.
I fully understand that space isn't flat, but it's still relatively flat along a galactic plane. It's only a few thousand LYs thick compared to 100,000 LYs across.
Just a point of order about Quarra: the space assets would have been used for the giant Iconian planet viewer thingie in "Sphere of Influence."
That isn't anywhere near the "entirety of known space in Star Trek." First Contact quoted the Federation alone at 8,000 ly.
The real problem with the size is it isn't visible from anywhere else. At that size, the brightly glowing thermobaric cloud should be prominently visible from everywhere.
AH! You are correct! (I made that, and I'd still forgotten.)
Thanks
Oh, and Talos IV. The General Order 7 for visiting Talos IV would be great for Captain Death, Slayer of Billions to check out.
Maybe we're the ones enforcing General Order 7. Come to Talos IV, get murdered by the player.
It's also likely that the Ferengi that the the planet Valakis met was the same marauder crew who tried to raid Archer's Enterprise later on, especially since one of those Ferengi mentioned the Menk from Valakis. Not traders, but probably an, ah, enterprising crew of Ferengi who went much further out from Ferenginar then any Ferengi had before and wouldn't again for centuries. Those Ferengi hadn't even heard of Vulcans before, and the Vulcans were the top regional power of that section of the galaxy for centuries before that. Ulis and his crew were probably the equivalent of Marco Polo or Francis Drake, traveling much further afield than their contemporaries in search of new trade routes and not above some piracy along the way, though in service to personal profit rather than the Ferengi flag or the equivalent thereof. When they got back, all they could say was that they found little latinum, not much loot, and the idea for a holoprogram that would be popular much later. Star Trek offers a whole jigsaw puzzle of pieces that can fit together if you arrange them the right way. That's a big part of the fun of paying attention to Star Trek canon. Just waving it all off and simply stating 'It's not real' or 'space is big' seems both lazy and boring. Some of the better Star Trek novels I've read dealt with them taking various apparently unrelated facets of different episodes and movies and connecting them together in a narrative that's both logical and entertaining.
1. Picard did not say cubic lightyears.
2. A 8,000 ly³ volume would only be 20 lightyears to a side (if its cube-shaped) or 24.8 lightyears in diameter (if it's sphere-shaped). That's ridiculously small.
3. The density of stars in our area of the galaxy is estimated to be 0.004 stars per cubic lightyear. Given 8,000 ly³, that would be 32 stars. It's extremely unlikely if not impossible for the also quoted 150 member worlds to all be orbiting only 32 stars. Especially since all the star systems shown on screen have one, maybe two habitable planets, if any.
And I don't really care what your collection of people who clearly don't know what a cubic lightyear is agree on, Picard's quote is the canon one. That it's also the one that makes sense is a nice bonus.
EDIT: Also note, 8,000 lightyears cubed is not the same thing as 8,000 cubic lightyears.
How fast are the ships? As fast as they need to be. Speeds, travel times and distances are rarely given. The few times when they are, the results are not consistent.
For that matter, I don't recall any incident in which a ship did fly all the way from one side of the Federation to the other on screen, or mention of how long it's supposed to take either. What I do remember is a lot of incidents in which the Enterprise is the only ship in range.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
And of course, nobody ever said the Federation was a perfect sphere, so it could be thinner in some places and wider in others. The quote only specifies its 8,000 ly at some point. Yes, because one ship stranded in the middle of nowhere having to trade or scavenge for supplies, evade or fight various hostiles and generally engage in all kinds of adventures is of course the very model of fast travel.
Nor did Voyager ever use maximum sustainable warp outside emergencies anyway, preferring to plod along at warp 6 or something most of the time...likely to conserve fuel.
Also, [citation needed].
So Earth is close to the Klingon border. What's the point?
Sure they do. Like in ST5 when they take a trip to the center of the galaxy.
If you'd done your research you'd know that the galaxy isn't the only thing that gets divided into quadrants in Star Trek. And it isn't just a quirk of TOS, either.
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Quadrant
Why wouldn't I? Should I expect Picard to lie about it? For what purpose?