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Forums > Home› Ten Forward

So apparently J.K. Rowling is a homophobe because she won't make Sirius Black g*y.

starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,965 Arc User
edited September 2016 in Ten Forward
http://tinyurl.com/zgu6r64

Apparently she annoyed a bunch of slash and yaoi fans by telling one of them on Twitter that Sirius Black is straight, so now they're calling her a homophobe. Ms. Rowling, welcome to what Star Trek has been dealing with since the '60s. May Q have mercy on your soul.

EDIT: Replaced direct link with TinyURL because the autocensor got in my way.
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Comments

  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan
    legendarylycan#5411
         Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    i hope someone pointed out to these morons that dumbledore is TRIBBLE, and that rowling specifically overrode a section of script for HBP that had him reminiscing about a past love due to that fact​​
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  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    Ýou'll find extremists everywhere. The LGBT-community is not an exception in that regard.
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  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,497 Arc User
    It eludes me why any sort of sexual orientation should be pushed in stories, movies and such.
    Any sort of orientation does not have to be hidden, but they should not be pushed either.

    Pushing any sort of agenda for X orientation would diminish the story.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,471 Arc User
    As far as I can tell, yaoi fans don't really care about orientation. They just want to see boys kissing. (And more, in many instances...)

    For them, Dumbledore wouldn't count, because he was a) too old, and b) not actively making out with anyone.​​
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  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    questerius wrote: »
    It eludes me why any sort of sexual orientation should be pushed in stories, movies and such.
    Any sort of orientation does not have to be hidden, but they should not be pushed either.

    Pushing any sort of agenda for X orientation would diminish the story.

    Well I don't think they'd want it to be present very clearly or have it be the main focus of a specific character. That would obviously diminish the story (much in the same way I once read in a critical review on Voyager, about Chakotay and that his indian background was too much the central feature of the character, that the character revolved too much around this thing).

    Instead they just seem to want the characters to be TRIBBLE or bi, so they are pushing it, but just in the real world. I don't think they're necessarily saying that the story needs to focus on these characters' orientation.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,965 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    deleted
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  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    :D:D:D:D

    If a writer says that their character is g.ay/straight/bi/whatever, then that is the end of the discussion. Can a fan say that they think a character may behavave in a way which might appear a certain way? Of course they can. We're all entitled to our opinions, but opinions aren't facts, and can't be allowed to become considered as valid as facts, especially when countered by the writer responsible for a character's creation.

    Besides, of course Sirius wasn't g.ay, he was as after Lily as everyone else in her school year...

    PS James Potter was a bullying a55hole...
  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    As far as I can tell, yaoi fans don't really care about orientation. They just want to see boys kissing. (And more, in many instances...)

    For them, Dumbledore wouldn't count, because he was a) too old, and b) not actively making out with anyone.​​

    That is the jist of it. Like I said...they really aren't a part of the LGBT community. They don't care about what happens to real life **** men...they just want their fantasy of pretty boys kissing.

    By the looks of things they started it, then the LGBT extremists jumped in which didn't help any.

    If they are interested in two men being involved, leave them be, most people wouldn't even bat an eyelid if it was a man writing about two women. It's the "dirty fan fiction" people that really need a bit of scrutiny because they have a tendency to get a bit... unhinged when their fantasies are denied.
  • wendysue53wendysue53 Member Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    not much to say about this except that '50 Shades of Gray' was a fanzine, where the author played with the characters from 'Twilight' and did a bunch of yaoi stuff and etc. Changed the name, pulled the yaoi, and got rid of the vamps/etc., then released it as '50 Shades'.

    No doubt there are a thousand fanzines doing the same with Mr. Potter.
  • wendysue53wendysue53 Member Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    not that it matters one way or the other. Creator decides final verdict on all their craft, unless they give away that right with the license - like the makers of Superman did with DC.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    Also... fans telling creators what their work should be never works out....
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,965 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    As far as I can tell, yaoi fans don't really care about orientation. They just want to see boys kissing. (And more, in many instances...)

    For them, Dumbledore wouldn't count, because he was a) too old, and b) not actively making out with anyone.​​

    That is the jist of it. Like I said...they really aren't a part of the LGBT community. They don't care about what happens to real life **** men...they just want their fantasy of pretty boys kissing.
    Yeah, essentially it's the same thing as straight guys who like girl-on-girl p*rn. It's "the same but more" of what they're attracted to.
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    By the looks of things they started it, then the LGBT extremists jumped in which didn't help any.

    If they are interested in two men being involved, leave them be, most people wouldn't even bat an eyelid if it was a man writing about two women. It's the "dirty fan fiction" people that really need a bit of scrutiny because they have a tendency to get a bit... unhinged when their fantasies are denied.
    There's actually quite a few lemons out there that are really good. I wrote a TV Tropes page for one of Mass Effect that was essentially a non-p*rn story that happened to have two or three sex scenes (basically a sci-fi romance novel), but even where the story is solely a self-contained sex scene there's a few diamonds.

    My problem with it is really when you do stuff that flies in the face of established characterization, like all the K/S slash where people conveniently ignore Kirk's legion of girls-of-the-week and that Spock has likewise only ever displayed anything resembling romantic interest towards female Vulcanoids. I said it myself regarding Sulu in Star Trek Beyond: as a general rule you really shouldn't just randomly make established characters LGBT as if you're filling a quota (although given the format of the Kelvin Timeline as films only, with the attendant time restrictions on character development in an ensemble cast, I understand and tentatively agree with why they decided to do it that way in that particular case).

    Rowling herself really said it best after the Dumbledore thing: she didn't write Dumbledore as "obviously" g*y because A, he wasn't the protagonist and his sexual orientation wasn't relevant to the plot, and B, "because g*y people just look like... people" (direct quote from one of her Twitter responses).
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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  • sarreoussarreous Member Posts: 336 Arc User
    HAAAAA ha ha ha ha ha ha
    http://www.wired.com/2012/11/meet-the-whales/all/

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  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    As far as I can tell, yaoi fans don't really care about orientation. They just want to see boys kissing. (And more, in many instances...)

    For them, Dumbledore wouldn't count, because he was a) too old, and b) not actively making out with anyone.​​

    That is the jist of it. Like I said...they really aren't a part of the LGBT community. They don't care about what happens to real life **** men...they just want their fantasy of pretty boys kissing.
    Yeah, essentially it's the same thing as straight guys who like girl-on-girl p*rn. It's "the same but more" of what they're attracted to.
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    By the looks of things they started it, then the LGBT extremists jumped in which didn't help any.

    If they are interested in two men being involved, leave them be, most people wouldn't even bat an eyelid if it was a man writing about two women. It's the "dirty fan fiction" people that really need a bit of scrutiny because they have a tendency to get a bit... unhinged when their fantasies are denied.
    There's actually quite a few lemons out there that are really good. I wrote a TV Tropes page for one of Mass Effect that was essentially a non-p*rn story that happened to have two or three sex scenes (basically a sci-fi romance novel), but even where the story is solely a self-contained sex scene there's a few diamonds.

    My problem with it is really when you do stuff that flies in the face of established characterization, like all the K/S slash where people conveniently ignore Kirk's legion of girls-of-the-week and that Spock has likewise only ever displayed anything resembling romantic interest towards female Vulcanoids. I said it myself regarding Sulu in Star Trek Beyond: as a general rule you really shouldn't just randomly make established characters LGBT as if you're filling a quota (although given the format of the Kelvin Timeline as films only, with the attendant time restrictions on character development in an ensemble cast, I understand and tentatively agree with why they decided to do it that way in that particular case).

    Rowling herself really said it best after the Dumbledore thing: she didn't write Dumbledore as "obviously" g*y because A, he wasn't the protagonist and his sexual orientation wasn't relevant to the plot, and B, "because g*y people just look like... people" (direct quote from one of her Twitter responses).

    Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with fan fiction (even some of the... more unusual stuff). It is just this particular group tend to get a little too attached to "their" characters and don't like it when the original writer tells them they are wrong.

    Happens with other groups too, some of the Trek role players still demand TNG is non-canon because it screws up their vision of the FASA Trek universe. When their vision conflicts with the original it causes this friction we see here. Separating fiction from fiction can be hard for some people.

    Could always stick to canon couples, but barely anyone does even though the material is clearly there to be expanded on... now please excuse me, I have to see what Riker and Troi are up to now.
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    As far as I can tell, yaoi fans don't really care about orientation. They just want to see boys kissing. (And more, in many instances...)

    For them, Dumbledore wouldn't count, because he was a) too old, and b) not actively making out with anyone.​​

    That is the jist of it. Like I said...they really aren't a part of the LGBT community. They don't care about what happens to real life **** men...they just want their fantasy of pretty boys kissing.
    Yeah, essentially it's the same thing as straight guys who like girl-on-girl p*rn. It's "the same but more" of what they're attracted to.
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    By the looks of things they started it, then the LGBT extremists jumped in which didn't help any.

    If they are interested in two men being involved, leave them be, most people wouldn't even bat an eyelid if it was a man writing about two women. It's the "dirty fan fiction" people that really need a bit of scrutiny because they have a tendency to get a bit... unhinged when their fantasies are denied.
    There's actually quite a few lemons out there that are really good. I wrote a TV Tropes page for one of Mass Effect that was essentially a non-p*rn story that happened to have two or three sex scenes (basically a sci-fi romance novel), but even where the story is solely a self-contained sex scene there's a few diamonds.

    My problem with it is really when you do stuff that flies in the face of established characterization, like all the K/S slash where people conveniently ignore Kirk's legion of girls-of-the-week and that Spock has likewise only ever displayed anything resembling romantic interest towards female Vulcanoids. I said it myself regarding Sulu in Star Trek Beyond: as a general rule you really shouldn't just randomly make established characters LGBT as if you're filling a quota (although given the format of the Kelvin Timeline as films only, with the attendant time restrictions on character development in an ensemble cast, I understand and tentatively agree with why they decided to do it that way in that particular case).

    Rowling herself really said it best after the Dumbledore thing: she didn't write Dumbledore as "obviously" g*y because A, he wasn't the protagonist and his sexual orientation wasn't relevant to the plot, and B, "because g*y people just look like... people" (direct quote from one of her Twitter responses).

    Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with fan fiction (even some of the... more unusual stuff). It is just this particular group tend to get a little too attached to "their" characters and don't like it when the original writer tells them they are wrong.

    Happens with other groups too, some of the Trek role players still demand TNG is non-canon because it screws up their vision of the FASA Trek universe. When their vision conflicts with the original it causes this friction we see here. Separating fiction from fiction can be hard for some people.

    Could always stick to canon couples, but barely anyone does even though the material is clearly there to be expanded on... now please excuse me, I have to see what Riker and Troi are up to now.
    Still trying to convince Picard to pay Beverly Child Support... Sonofabitch thought that tossing out a field-commission would make things go away... ;)


    As Seven pointed out, 'fan' comes from 'fanatic'... ;)
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,008 Arc User
    No, she's not. I don't know if she actually is, nobody can tell, but not from that nonsense at least.​​
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  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    No, she's not. I don't know if she actually is, nobody can tell, but not from that nonsense at least.​​
    All that nonsense shows, is that SJWs don't have anything to define about themselves but their sexualities, don't see anyone else as anything other than their sexuality, and generally shouldn't have access to the same internet/oxygen as anyone else ;)

  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,965 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    No, she's not. I don't know if she actually is, nobody can tell, but not from that nonsense at least.​​
    Rowling is actually fairly well-known as an LGBT rights advocate. This is just the result of a lunatic fringe of her own fandom mixing with a lunatic fringe of the LGBT rights community, essentially the LGBT equivalent of Christian fundies who think Christianity is under attack in the United States because they're no longer allowed to persecute people.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    marcusdkane wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    No, she's not. I don't know if she actually is, nobody can tell, but not from that nonsense at least.​​
    All that nonsense shows, is that SJWs don't have anything to define about themselves but their sexualities, don't see anyone else as anything other than their sexuality, and generally shouldn't have access to the same internet/oxygen as anyone else ;)
    Yeah way too many activists are like that.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,965 Arc User
    crashdragon wrote: »
    Sounds like someone open a box of Froot Loops and didn't close it afterwards. Some got out and found internet access.​​

    You're seriously scaring me. :P
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,219 Arc User
    Fans have always projected themselves onto fictional characters with whom they identify or admire. Admit it: when Frodo and Sam were climbing Mt. Doom, it was really you cutting your feet on burning hot cinders but still you read on as you neared your goal...

    With any splinter group, there is a desire to 'normalize' what others consider odd or 'bad' behaviors. History is rich with such examples, but let's pick one example that is likely to be familiar, but non- controversial: Rock and Roll.

    Elvis came on the stage and offended many parents with his antics. The kids loved him. All the girls wanted to be with him, and all the boys wanted to be him. They dressed like him, walked like him, and talked like him. These early fans were treated poorly by an unapproving society, but Elvis was soon on every radio and TV station and the fan base grew. By the time Elvis was working in Vegas, it was common to see men of my parent's generation wearing long sideburns and slicked back hair. (A little dab will do ya!)

    All splinter cultures want an Elvis to normalize their behavior to society. They will often project their point of view onto a likely candidate popular in culture at the time, and this sort of projection often becomes a cultural truth, regardless of the intent. One such example is "TRIBBLE Sulu" over Roddenberry's stating he was straight, and George Takei's objection on the grounds that canon should be respected. Far too many people have emotionally identified with 'TRIBBLE Sulu' to ever again accept a straight Sulu. I, like Mr. Takei, think he is a good enough TRIBBLE actor to play a straight man on TV. But then, I have no emotional investment in the issue.

    People of any subculture deserve respect and human dignity. Period. We as lifelong Star Trek nerds should be the first to understand, given our cultural identity over the last 50 years. For most of my life, the word Trekkie was meant as an insult. But then we had Stewart, Brooks, Mulgrew, and Bakula putting Trek in everyone's face. Now I can admit to liking Trek in public without fear of being ridiculed. That was not always the case.

    So, some weird people got upset when the author of a fictional work discredited their projection. So what? It's not like that never happens in STO.
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    Fans have always projected themselves onto fictional characters with whom they identify or admire. Admit it: when Frodo and Sam were climbing Mt. Doom, it was really you cutting your feet on burning hot cinders but still you read on as you neared your goal...

    With any splinter group, there is a desire to 'normalize' what others consider odd or 'bad' behaviors. History is rich with such examples, but let's pick one example that is likely to be familiar, but non- controversial: Rock and Roll.

    Elvis came on the stage and offended many parents with his antics. The kids loved him. All the girls wanted to be with him, and all the boys wanted to be him. They dressed like him, walked like him, and talked like him. These early fans were treated poorly by an unapproving society, but Elvis was soon on every radio and TV station and the fan base grew. By the time Elvis was working in Vegas, it was common to see men of my parent's generation wearing long sideburns and slicked back hair. (A little dab will do ya!)

    All splinter cultures want an Elvis to normalize their behavior to society. They will often project their point of view onto a likely candidate popular in culture at the time, and this sort of projection often becomes a cultural truth, regardless of the intent. One such example is "**** Sulu" over Roddenberry's stating he was straight, and George Takei's objection on the grounds that canon should be respected. Far too many people have emotionally identified with '**** Sulu' to ever again accept a straight Sulu. I, like Mr. Takei, think he is a good enough **** actor to play a straight man on TV. But then, I have no emotional investment in the issue.

    People of any subculture deserve respect and human dignity. Period. We as lifelong Star Trek nerds should be the first to understand, given our cultural identity over the last 50 years. For most of my life, the word Trekkie was meant as an insult. But then we had Stewart, Brooks, Mulgrew, and Bakula putting Trek in everyone's face. Now I can admit to liking Trek in public without fear of being ridiculed. That was not always the case.

    So, some weird people got upset when the author of a fictional work discredited their projection. So what? It's not like that never happens in STO.
    Sure, but it won't be granted all the time there are fanatics getting their panties in a twist over issues like this. Most g.ay people probably couldn't care less, but as with everything, there's always going to be one or two fringe whackjobs who give everyone else a bad name... All the time there are Snowflakes like this around, communities won't get the respect they deserve, because of that very vocal minority spoiling it for everyone else...



    For the record, I REALLY hope Finn and Poe turn out to be g.ay for each other... On the one hand, it would be a nice step forward to have some decent openly-g.ay characters for folks to look up to, and on the other, the dynamic between them (and the comments by Oscar Isaac) genuinely seems to support the possibility, rather than SnowflakeProjection of something which isn't there at all (such as Sirius Black) B)
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    brian334 wrote: »
    One such example is "**** Sulu" over Roddenberry's stating he was straight, and George Takei's objection on the grounds that canon should be respected. Far too many people have emotionally identified with '**** Sulu' to ever again accept a straight Sulu. I, like Mr. Takei, think he is a good enough **** actor to play a straight man on TV. But then, I have no emotional investment in the issue.

    Star trek canon is the material included in the shows or films not any behind the scenes material at all. Sulu had no sexuality onscreen not influenced by a virus and is a blank slate as far as canon is confirmed.​​
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  • wendysue53wendysue53 Member Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    ...have to say this is a sad thread...
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,219 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    One such example is "**** Sulu" over Roddenberry's stating he was straight, and George Takei's objection on the grounds that canon should be respected. Far too many people have emotionally identified with '**** Sulu' to ever again accept a straight Sulu. I, like Mr. Takei, think he is a good enough **** actor to play a straight man on TV. But then, I have no emotional investment in the issue.

    Star trek canon is the material included in the shows or films not any behind the scenes material at all. Sulu had no sexuality onscreen not influenced by a virus and is a blank slate as far as canon is confirmed.​​

    His daughter who bore his family name appeared in Generations. This is not evidence he is straight, but Sulu was shown on screen on more than one occasion displaying interest in females.

    While there is no proof, the preponderance of evidence shows he isn't. Until Beyond.

    I'm of the opinion that sexual orientations of characters are only important if there is a plot purpose or point of characterization to be made. Simply going down the roster and checking off boxes in the name of inclusiveness does nothing to advance the story, and may well distract from it. Others feel differently on the matter, but I refer you to Douglas Adams for more discussion on that topic.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    wendysue53 wrote: »
    ...have to say this is a sad thread...
    The even sadder part is that this probably has no more substance than a "fan" trying to manipulate her.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,965 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    brian334 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    One such example is "**** Sulu" over Roddenberry's stating he was straight, and George Takei's objection on the grounds that canon should be respected. Far too many people have emotionally identified with '**** Sulu' to ever again accept a straight Sulu. I, like Mr. Takei, think he is a good enough **** actor to play a straight man on TV. But then, I have no emotional investment in the issue.

    Star trek canon is the material included in the shows or films not any behind the scenes material at all. Sulu had no sexuality onscreen not influenced by a virus and is a blank slate as far as canon is confirmed.​​

    His daughter who bore his family name appeared in Generations. This is not evidence he is straight, but Sulu was shown on screen on more than one occasion displaying interest in females.

    While there is no proof, the preponderance of evidence shows he isn't. Until Beyond.
    I just chalk it up to the timeline split. He and several of the other crew members (Chekov for example) were born after it, which would be enough for KT!Sulu to swing the other direction (since current science suggests sexual orientation is determined during gestation IIRC).
    brian334 wrote: »
    I'm of the opinion that sexual orientations of characters are only important if there is a plot purpose or point of characterization to be made. Simply going down the roster and checking off boxes in the name of inclusiveness does nothing to advance the story, and may well distract from it. Others feel differently on the matter, but I refer you to Douglas Adams for more discussion on that topic.
    Yeah, same here. I do like how they handled it with Sulu in the actual movie, though: his husband and kid are visible for all of twenty seconds in the entire film and he's still the same talented and confident conn officer we've known for two movies. I.e. "Yeah, he's g*y, so what, who cares, let's go back to sci-fi coolness now."
    Post edited by starswordc on
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