Grandfather Rommie lives among humans. To avoid accusations of being a spy, or perhaps because he is a spy, he passes as a Vulcan. His half human child is raised to pass as a Vulcan as well, because Rommie is still alive and maintaining his disguise. His 3/4 human grandson maintains the lie to avoid outing Grandpa Rommie, who is still kicking around, and upon whom many curious minds will turn once word gets out.
Sure, there may have been nothing to prevent a 1/4 Romulan from entering Starfleet. In fact, Spock's protege was 1/2 Romulan. But there are many family secrets that people work hard to keep secret, even long after revealing it would make little difference.
Well like I said despite the Federation's ideals Vulcans have always been portrayed as incredibly bigoted, so much so that it would not surprise me if Tarses lied just to conceal his ancestry from Vulcans in Starfleet.
That's certainly a possibility, meaning that he was fearful of reactions if the truth of his ancestry was known...
Well like I said despite the Federation's ideals Vulcans have always been portrayed as incredibly bigoted, so much so that it would not surprise me if Tarses lied just to conceal his ancestry from Vulcans in Starfleet.
Also... we don't really know much about the status of his parents, and that status might have a lot to do with why he did it.
In terms of 'Federation Freedom', what would it have to do with anything? As mentioned, during WWII, interned Japanese-Americans were able to enlist in the military (and this was an acknowledged way out of the camp) despite the fact they could have very legitimate grudges against the US Government... I can't believe that Starfleet (given that Worf and Ro were allowed to enlist) would discriminate against an applicant for such reasons...
Again... why are we assuming he did it because he thought he would be denied entry?
Because anything else, would be baseless speculation, which there simply isn't enough information to confirm or deny, so would be pointless to discuss...
The point isn't even so much why did he tell the lie, but why continue to do so once he was in a hearing... The most simple and identifiable answer, is: fear of the consequences. For one to have fear of consequences, there have to be consequences to fear... The fact that he was lying about his ancestry, suggests that revelation of said ancestry would be unfavourable...
Actually, it's baseless speculation to assume ANY reason.
Why continue in the hearing? Well, he'd apparently been in Starfleet for years. And every time someone asked him about his ancestry he told the same story. So when Sadie asked him, he did the same thing he'd done every other time.
The point isn't even so much why did he tell the lie, but why continue to do so once he was in a hearing... The most simple and identifiable answer, is: fear of the consequences. For one to have fear of consequences, there have to be consequences to fear... The fact that he was lying about his ancestry, suggests that revelation of said ancestry would be unfavourable...
Or that he believed such would be the case. Such fears are not always reasonable - it may have simply been that he'd heard so much casually derogatory talk about Romulans in his life that he feared the revelation of his true ancestry would keep him out of Starfleet, and then that it would get him drummed out after he got in. (In fact, the only disciplinary action he received, IIRC, was due to the lie itself, not to his Romulan grandfather.)
And just because a society has become enlightened, doesn't necessarily mean that all of its members have kept pace. I could offer tidbits from personal experience, but let's keep this to Trek - anyone remember the navigator in the episode "Balance of Terror", after they got their first look at a Romulan? His reaction to Spock after that wasn't in the "oh so enlightened" mode that Roddenberry preached of in "The Savage Curtain"...
Orrrrrrrrrr, The writers wanted to set up Patrick Stweart to give the greatest line in TNG, which now more than ever has become the sad reality we are in now.
Actually, it's baseless speculation to assume ANY reason.
Why continue in the hearing? Well, he'd apparently been in Starfleet for years. And every time someone asked him about his ancestry he told the same story. So when Sadie asked him, he did the same thing he'd done every other time.
By which, it's equally baseless to speculate on why Malcolm was in the closet... (which was the original point) Screen canon showed him interacting with women, but Dominic Keating said he played him as g.ay, so there has to be a middle ground to those two notions. What we can take from the 'Malcolm's Birthday Cake' episode, was that he was essentially an enigma and non-entity in the lives of everyone, even those closest to him, because he kept things to himself (probably why Section 31 recruited him) and went along with things (anything) so as to not rock the boat. This 'self-removal' was so entrenched, that when he got speared by the Romulan mine, so Archer would no longer have to worry about rescuing a live crewman, he tried to suffocate himself! That's how much he put everything and everyone else above his own needs and desires...
When ENT started, and it was revealed that one of the crew was actually from the future, my initial guess(and hope) was that it was Malcolm. His complaint about scans not being a standard procedure, etc, seemed to show someone who was used to standard procedure, and finding it frustrating to be dealing with people who didn't have standard procedures, rather than someone who was simply trying to bring about sound operating practices (again for the benefit of literally everyone else) To say I was disappointed when that timetraveler turned out to be an inconsequential background no-body would be an understatement. Not because I'd guessed wrong, but because it didn't actually change the status quo for how everyone would have then behaved toward said character, and because it didn't really live up to the expectation intentionally generated by the comment. The comment lead one to believe that it was refering to one of the principle characters (the senior officers) not an unknown. (I just worked out that they may have been inspired by Under Seige (which I haven't seen) where the chef turns out to be the biggest bad*ss on the ship...)
Actually, it's baseless speculation to assume ANY reason.
Why continue in the hearing? Well, he'd apparently been in Starfleet for years. And every time someone asked him about his ancestry he told the same story. So when Sadie asked him, he did the same thing he'd done every other time.
By which, it's equally baseless to speculate on why Malcolm was in the closet... (which was the original point) Screen canon showed him interacting with women, but Dominic Keating said he played him as g.ay, so there has to be a middle ground to those two notions. What we can take from the 'Malcolm's Birthday Cake' episode, was that he was essentially an enigma and non-entity in the lives of everyone, even those closest to him, because he kept things to himself (probably why Section 31 recruited him) and went along with things (anything) so as to not rock the boat. This 'self-removal' was so entrenched, that when he got speared by the Romulan mine, so Archer would no longer have to worry about rescuing a live crewman, he tried to suffocate himself! That's how much he put everything and everyone else above his own needs and desires...
When ENT started, and it was revealed that one of the crew was actually from the future, my initial guess(and hope) was that it was Malcolm. His complaint about scans not being a standard procedure, etc, seemed to show someone who was used to standard procedure, and finding it frustrating to be dealing with people who didn't have standard procedures, rather than someone who was simply trying to bring about sound operating practices (again for the benefit of literally everyone else) To say I was disappointed when that timetraveler turned out to be an inconsequential background no-body would be an understatement. Not because I'd guessed wrong, but because it didn't actually change the status quo for how everyone would have then behaved toward said character, and because it didn't really live up to the expectation intentionally generated by the comment. The comment lead one to believe that it was refering to one of the principle characters (the senior officers) not an unknown. (I just worked out that they may have been inspired by Under Seige (which I haven't seen) where the chef turns out to be the biggest bad*ss on the ship...)
That 'chef' thing seems to be a bit of a trope, because in The Hunt for Red October, the crewmember who tried to destroy the sub was actually the boat's cook!
The point isn't even so much why did he tell the lie, but why continue to do so once he was in a hearing... The most simple and identifiable answer, is: fear of the consequences. For one to have fear of consequences, there have to be consequences to fear... The fact that he was lying about his ancestry, suggests that revelation of said ancestry would be unfavourable...
Or that he believed such would be the case. Such fears are not always reasonable - it may have simply been that he'd heard so much casually derogatory talk about Romulans in his life that he feared the revelation of his true ancestry would keep him out of Starfleet, and then that it would get him drummed out after he got in. (In fact, the only disciplinary action he received, IIRC, was due to the lie itself, not to his Romulan grandfather.)
Absolutely so, afterall, lying on an application can/will get someone kicked out of most any job or organisation. The point of the point I was making, was to illustrate that even in the Utopia of the Federation, people still 'kept things to themselves' because they feared consequences of the revelation.
And just because a society has become enlightened, doesn't necessarily mean that all of its members have kept pace. I could offer tidbits from personal experience, but let's keep this to Trek - anyone remember the navigator in the episode "Balance of Terror", after they got their first look at a Romulan? His reaction to Spock after that wasn't in the "oh so enlightened" mode that Roddenberry preached of in "The Savage Curtain"...
Completely understandable, and something which ENT somewhat illustrated: Since the Romulan War, Vulcan (as a planet/political body) allowed Humanity (and presumeably everyone else) to have the assumption that Romulans were a race as distinct and unique as say Andorians, Tellarites and Klingons. But they weren't/aren't... Romulans are just Vulcans who refused to be bound by Surak's manifesto. Romulans are actually the True Vulcans, who remained true to the Old Ways, rather than re-inventing their entire society by route of mass-conformity. What ENT showed us with the treatment of the Syranites, hints at the same levels of ideological bigotry and borderline fascism/totalitarianism, which must have existed just prior to the Time of the Sundering. Bearing that notion in mind, is it any wonder why disinformation, guardedness, secrecy and paranoia are the underpinnings of the Romulan psychology?
This level of same-ness is best shown in Trek 09, when the Enterprise's original communications officer reports: "Sir, I'm not sure I can distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan..." A communcations officer who can't tell two languages from the other?? But given the actual history of the Romulans, this absolutely makes sense (for the languages to be near-identical) but this then also opens a massive can of worms...
The Earth-Romulan Treaty was established entirely over radio.
It was established via communicated language.
It doesn't matter what format that language took, because the base language being used needs to be understood. For example, we're using the Roman alphabet; We could use binary, or Morse, but we would still be communicating in, and need to understand, English, for said messages to make sense. Are we seriously to believe that no Human linguists working on the Treaty talks realized that these aliens were talking to them in a language they already understood (Vuhlkansu) It's unlikely, bordering on incredulity, that Romulans would agree to the use of a ligua-franca to aid in negotiations (because they would want to know exactly what these Terrhasu are saying!) so the assumption must be that they were sending messages in Rihan, which were then being translated into English. But who was doing the translation? As noted, clearly not Human liguists, so if not, who?
Given the behaviours of the High Command seen in ENT, it's very easy to see Vulcan stepping up as an intermediary, and every good Human knows that Vulcans are our friends and we trust what they tell us, because Vulcan's can't lie. But the truth behind that mediation, would be to keep from Humanity (and the rest of the fledgeling Federation) that Romulans are really Vulcans! Vulcans who didn't agree with the behaviour of 'the Vulcan Establishment! (which at this point, many Humans also took issue with) When faced with the prospect of losing its Elder Brother stranglehold on Humanity to new allies who would well and truly share the dark secrets of Vulcan's past, the logical action is to act as mediator to control the flow of information and keep Humanity from ever learning the truth. So to bring things back to the afore-mentioned navigator: This is someone dealing with the revelation that everything he's ever been told about Romulans (from Vulcan sources) is potentially a lie. Are you really surprized that he is suddenly wary of Spock (and by extension, the Vulcan heirarchy which misled him/Humanity for over a hundred years) ? There's a difference between the message Rodenberry preached through a mouthpiece like Kirk, and the, pardon the expression, logic of how the situation actually would have been... The Federation may have ideals and people may strive to live up to them, but on a day-to-day basis, putting their pants on one hoof at a time like the rest of us, these are still Humans, and genrally, Humans have a strong aversion to liars and manipulators, and they take exception when they find out they have been lied to and manipulated. Especially by their friends... Again, is it any wonder that this navigator would now view Spock with suspicion?
The point isn't even so much why did he tell the lie, but why continue to do so once he was in a hearing... The most simple and identifiable answer, is: fear of the consequences. For one to have fear of consequences, there have to be consequences to fear... The fact that he was lying about his ancestry, suggests that revelation of said ancestry would be unfavourable...
Or that he believed such would be the case. Such fears are not always reasonable - it may have simply been that he'd heard so much casually derogatory talk about Romulans in his life that he feared the revelation of his true ancestry would keep him out of Starfleet, and then that it would get him drummed out after he got in. (In fact, the only disciplinary action he received, IIRC, was due to the lie itself, not to his Romulan grandfather.)
Absolutely so, afterall, lying on an application can/will get someone kicked out of most any job or organisation. The point of the point I was making, was to illustrate that even in the Utopia of the Federation, people still 'kept things to themselves' because they feared consequences of the revelation.
And just because a society has become enlightened, doesn't necessarily mean that all of its members have kept pace. I could offer tidbits from personal experience, but let's keep this to Trek - anyone remember the navigator in the episode "Balance of Terror", after they got their first look at a Romulan? His reaction to Spock after that wasn't in the "oh so enlightened" mode that Roddenberry preached of in "The Savage Curtain"...
Completely understandable, and something which ENT somewhat illustrated: Since the Romulan War, Vulcan (as a planet/political body) allowed Humanity (and presumeably everyone else) to have the assumption that Romulans were a race as distinct and unique as say Andorians, Tellarites and Klingons. But they weren't/aren't... Romulans are just Vulcans who refused to be bound by Surak's manifesto. Romulans are actually the True Vulcans, who remained true to the Old Ways, rather than re-inventing their entire society by route of mass-conformity. What ENT showed us with the Syranites, hints at the same levels of ideological bigotry and borderline fascism/totalitarianism, which must have existed just prior to the Time of the Sundering. Bearing that notion in mind, is it any wonder why disinformation, guardedness, secrecy and paranoia are the underpinnings of the Romulan psychology?
This level of same-ness is best shown in Trek 09, when the Enterprise original communications officer admits: "Sir, I'm not sure I can distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan..." A communcations officer who can't tell two languages from the other?? But given the actual history of the Romulans, this absolutely makes sense (for the languages to be near-identical) but this then also opens a massive can of worms...
The Earth-Romulan Treaty was established entirely over radio.
It was established via communicated language.
It doesn't matter what format that language took, because the base language bing used needs to be understood. For example, we're using the Roman alphabet; We could use binary, or Morse, but we would still be communicating in, and need to understand, English, for said messages to make sense. Are we seriously to believe that no Human linguists working on the Treaty talks realized that these aliens were talking to them in a language they already understood (Vuhlkansu) It's unlikely, bordering on incredulity, that Romulans would agree to the use of a ligua-franca to aid in negotiations (because they would want to know exactly what these Terrhasu are saying!) so the assumption must be that they were sending messages in Rihan, which were then being translated into English. But who was doing the translation? As noted, clearly not Human liguists, so if not, who?
Given the behaviours of the High Command seen in ENT, it's very easy to see Vulcan stepping up as an intermediary, and every good Human knows that Vulcans are our friends and we trust what they tell us, because Vulcan's can't lie. But the truth behind that mediation, would be to keep from Humanity (and the rest of the fledgeling Federation) that Romulans are really Vulcans! Vulcans who didn't agree with the behaviour of 'the Vulcan Establishment! (which at this point, many Humans also took issue with) When faced with the prospect of losing its Elder Brother stranglehold on Humanity to new allies who would well and truly share the dark secrets of Vulcan's past, the logical action is to act as mediator to control the flow of information and keep Humanity from ever learning the truth. So to bring things back to the afore-mentioned navigator: This is someone dealing with the recelation the everything he's ever been told about Romulans (from Vulcan sources) is potentially a lie. Are you really surprized that he is suddenly wary of Spock (and by extension, the Vulcan heirarchy which misslead him/Humanity for over a hundred years) ? There's a difference between the message Rodenberry preached through a mouthpiece like Kirk, and the, pardon the expression, logic of how the situation actually would have been... The Federation may have ideals and people may strive to live up to them, but on a day-to-day basis, putting their pants on one hoof at a time like the rest of us, these are still Humans, and genrally, Humans have a strong aversion to liars and manipulators, and they take exception when they find out they have been lied to and manipulated. Especially by their friends... Again, is it any wonder that this navigator would now view Spock with suspicion?
The Enterprise Romulan War novel 'Beneath the Raptor's Wings' may provide an answer to the language question. The Klingons already had diplomatic relations with the Romulans and the Coalition, so it's possible that thlingan'hol was used as an intermediary language. Alternatively, they might have used something similar to Babylon 5's interlac, which is a language specifically designed to be easily translated for communication between two races which don't know each other's language.
Or that the Romulans had learned English.
As to 'Vulcan's deep dark secret', I'd like to point out that while the Vulcan High Command in ENT had dealings with Romulans, there's no indication that the general public (or even T'Pau's administration) knew until 'A Balance of Terror', where Spock was as surprised as everybody else to discover the Romulans were Vulcanoid.
The point isn't even so much why did he tell the lie, but why continue to do so once he was in a hearing... The most simple and identifiable answer, is: fear of the consequences. For one to have fear of consequences, there have to be consequences to fear... The fact that he was lying about his ancestry, suggests that revelation of said ancestry would be unfavourable...
Or that he believed such would be the case. Such fears are not always reasonable - it may have simply been that he'd heard so much casually derogatory talk about Romulans in his life that he feared the revelation of his true ancestry would keep him out of Starfleet, and then that it would get him drummed out after he got in. (In fact, the only disciplinary action he received, IIRC, was due to the lie itself, not to his Romulan grandfather.)
Absolutely so, afterall, lying on an application can/will get someone kicked out of most any job or organisation. The point of the point I was making, was to illustrate that even in the Utopia of the Federation, people still 'kept things to themselves' because they feared consequences of the revelation.
And just because a society has become enlightened, doesn't necessarily mean that all of its members have kept pace. I could offer tidbits from personal experience, but let's keep this to Trek - anyone remember the navigator in the episode "Balance of Terror", after they got their first look at a Romulan? His reaction to Spock after that wasn't in the "oh so enlightened" mode that Roddenberry preached of in "The Savage Curtain"...
Completely understandable, and something which ENT somewhat illustrated: Since the Romulan War, Vulcan (as a planet/political body) allowed Humanity (and presumeably everyone else) to have the assumption that Romulans were a race as distinct and unique as say Andorians, Tellarites and Klingons. But they weren't/aren't... Romulans are just Vulcans who refused to be bound by Surak's manifesto. Romulans are actually the True Vulcans, who remained true to the Old Ways, rather than re-inventing their entire society by route of mass-conformity. What ENT showed us with the Syranites, hints at the same levels of ideological bigotry and borderline fascism/totalitarianism, which must have existed just prior to the Time of the Sundering. Bearing that notion in mind, is it any wonder why disinformation, guardedness, secrecy and paranoia are the underpinnings of the Romulan psychology?
This level of same-ness is best shown in Trek 09, when the Enterprise original communications officer admits: "Sir, I'm not sure I can distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan..." A communcations officer who can't tell two languages from the other?? But given the actual history of the Romulans, this absolutely makes sense (for the languages to be near-identical) but this then also opens a massive can of worms...
The Earth-Romulan Treaty was established entirely over radio.
It was established via communicated language.
It doesn't matter what format that language took, because the base language bing used needs to be understood. For example, we're using the Roman alphabet; We could use binary, or Morse, but we would still be communicating in, and need to understand, English, for said messages to make sense. Are we seriously to believe that no Human linguists working on the Treaty talks realized that these aliens were talking to them in a language they already understood (Vuhlkansu) It's unlikely, bordering on incredulity, that Romulans would agree to the use of a ligua-franca to aid in negotiations (because they would want to know exactly what these Terrhasu are saying!) so the assumption must be that they were sending messages in Rihan, which were then being translated into English. But who was doing the translation? As noted, clearly not Human liguists, so if not, who?
Given the behaviours of the High Command seen in ENT, it's very easy to see Vulcan stepping up as an intermediary, and every good Human knows that Vulcans are our friends and we trust what they tell us, because Vulcan's can't lie. But the truth behind that mediation, would be to keep from Humanity (and the rest of the fledgeling Federation) that Romulans are really Vulcans! Vulcans who didn't agree with the behaviour of 'the Vulcan Establishment! (which at this point, many Humans also took issue with) When faced with the prospect of losing its Elder Brother stranglehold on Humanity to new allies who would well and truly share the dark secrets of Vulcan's past, the logical action is to act as mediator to control the flow of information and keep Humanity from ever learning the truth. So to bring things back to the afore-mentioned navigator: This is someone dealing with the recelation the everything he's ever been told about Romulans (from Vulcan sources) is potentially a lie. Are you really surprized that he is suddenly wary of Spock (and by extension, the Vulcan heirarchy which misslead him/Humanity for over a hundred years) ? There's a difference between the message Rodenberry preached through a mouthpiece like Kirk, and the, pardon the expression, logic of how the situation actually would have been... The Federation may have ideals and people may strive to live up to them, but on a day-to-day basis, putting their pants on one hoof at a time like the rest of us, these are still Humans, and genrally, Humans have a strong aversion to liars and manipulators, and they take exception when they find out they have been lied to and manipulated. Especially by their friends... Again, is it any wonder that this navigator would now view Spock with suspicion?
The Enterprise Romulan War novel 'Beneath the Raptor's Wings' may provide an answer to the language question. The Klingons already had diplomatic relations with the Romulans and the Coalition, so it's possible that thlingan'hol was used as an intermediary language. Alternatively, they might have used something similar to Babylon 5's interlac, which is a language specifically designed to be easily translated for communication between two races which don't know each other's language.
Or that the Romulans had learned English.
As to 'Vulcan's deep dark secret', I'd like to point out that while the Vulcan High Command in ENT had dealings with Romulans, there's no indication that the general public (or even T'Pau's administration) knew until 'A Balance of Terror', where Spock was as surprised as everybody else to discover the Romulans were Vulcanoid.
It's possible, yes, but unlikely, because as I mentioned, the Romulans would want to know exactly what was being said by the Humans...
And yes, that is my point entirely, that the Vulcan government was not open about things. Something else which may have factored into the logic of the Vulcans of the day (when the negotiations took place) is that Humans only have just over a third of a Vulcan/Romulan lifespan. It would have occured to them (the Vulcans) that the Earth's current world leaders (and those on Andor and Tellar) would die and be replaced before the Vulcan counterparts even retire... With at least two or three success generational shifts of leadership, it would be very easy for the still-alive Vulcans to simply say "No, things weren't like that then... This is how they were..." And have that testimony taken without question due to the Vulcan's seniority (in years) and direct experience of having been alive at the time. A bit like the meme doing the rounds about a generation of American children now learning about 9/11 as a historical event which they did not personally witness. A version of events sorry, curriculum, hasn't yet been formulated to discuss the topic from a historical standpoint. All I have to say to an American student, is "Hey, I was actually alive when that happened... I remember exactly what happened..." and they're going to, at the very least, consider my direct testimony as having some validity. That's the kind of intellectual stranglehold Vulcan had over Earth (and even its own public) back in the day. They were lying to their own people, about a capability of their own body's... Is it impossible to believe that they would lie to Earth about their knowledge of the Romulans?
Don't forget that during the events of Enterprise the Vulcan High Command was under the direct control of multiple Romulan operatives, which included the leader of the High Command himself. This doesn't excuse the pervasive Vulcan bigotry by any means.
That's very true, but bear in mind that the Romulan departure, would have been the equivalent of a small country's population leaving, there would have been people on Vulcan who had familial ancestors leaving. For example, a friend of mine, is a direct descendant of Robert Devereaux, 2nd Earl of Essex, and is well aware of her family history. I find it unlikely that Vulcans (certainly in the ENT era) were completely unaware of any historical ancestors who left Vulcan to become Romulans
Don't forget that during the events of Enterprise the Vulcan High Command was under the direct control of multiple Romulan operatives, which included the leader of the High Command himself. This doesn't excuse the pervasive Vulcan bigotry by any means.
That's very true, but bear in mind that the Romulan departure, would have been the equivalent of a small country's population leaving, there would have been people on Vulcan who had familial ancestors leaving. For example, a friend of mine, is a direct descendant of Robert Devereaux, 2nd Earl of Essex, and is well aware of her family history. I find it unlikely that Vulcans (certainly in the ENT era) were completely unaware of any historical ancestors who left Vulcan to become Romulans
But when the Romulans left Vulcan, they hadn't taken the name Romulan yet. No one who was related to one of the leaving Vulcans would have known that they were going to become Romulans, because Romulans as a racial identity didn't exist yet. So until the Romulans made contact around the ENT era, no Vulcan knew what had become of them, and that information only came to the public's light during Balance of Terror when Spock learned the Romulans were volcanoid.
The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Not the war, the negotiations... ENT never showed the Romulan War...
And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Not the war, the negotiations... ENT never showed the Romulan War...
And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
I said the premise of the war, which means it's set up and backstory. But yes, Robu encounters Nero prior to when Balance of Terror happens so the Prime Universe (as Robu is referring to the past when he speaks to Nero even though the conversation is now technically happening in the KT) already has diplomatic relations with Romulus (they mention ambassadors or something to that effect).
There's also the fact the Andorians have encountered the Romulans directly and were Earth's closest ally in the early Coalition and they dislike the Vulcans not to be motivated to keep the relationship between the two a secret.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Not the war, the negotiations... ENT never showed the Romulan War...
And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
I said the premise of the war, which means it's set up and backstory. But yes, Robu encounters Nero prior to when Balance of Terror happens so the Prime Universe (as Robu is referring to the past when he speaks to Nero even though the conversation is now technically happening in the KT) already has diplomatic relations with Romulus (they mention ambassadors or something to that effect).
There's also the fact the Andorians have encountered the Romulans directly and were Earth's closest ally in the early Coalition and they dislike the Vulcans not to be motivated to keep the relationship between the two a secret.
Ahh, yes, I see what you're refering to I'd disagree, as I don't think ENT really showed enough to truly reflect changes, but I would agree that they sailed pretty close to the wind with it
The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Not the war, the negotiations... ENT never showed the Romulan War...
And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
I said the premise of the war, which means it's set up and backstory. But yes, Robu encounters Nero prior to when Balance of Terror happens so the Prime Universe (as Robu is referring to the past when he speaks to Nero even though the conversation is now technically happening in the KT) already has diplomatic relations with Romulus (they mention ambassadors or something to that effect).
There's also the fact the Andorians have encountered the Romulans directly and were Earth's closest ally in the early Coalition and they dislike the Vulcans not to be motivated to keep the relationship between the two a secret.
Ahh, yes, I see what you're refering to I'd disagree, as I don't think ENT really showed enough to truly reflect changes, but I would agree that they sailed pretty close to the wind with it
Well there's the direct Andorian/Romulan contact for one. Then the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan Command is another. The lack of primitive nuclear weapons is another.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Not the war, the negotiations... ENT never showed the Romulan War...
And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
I said the premise of the war, which means it's set up and backstory. But yes, Robu encounters Nero prior to when Balance of Terror happens so the Prime Universe (as Robu is referring to the past when he speaks to Nero even though the conversation is now technically happening in the KT) already has diplomatic relations with Romulus (they mention ambassadors or something to that effect).
There's also the fact the Andorians have encountered the Romulans directly and were Earth's closest ally in the early Coalition and they dislike the Vulcans not to be motivated to keep the relationship between the two a secret.
Ahh, yes, I see what you're refering to I'd disagree, as I don't think ENT really showed enough to truly reflect changes, but I would agree that they sailed pretty close to the wind with it
Well there's the direct Andorian/Romulan contact for one. Then the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan Command is another. The lack of primitive nuclear weapons is another.
I don't recal that, what was it?
The Romulan infiltration of the High Command, as I mentioned, can be explained away by the comparatively short Human lifespans, and the Vulcans likely hoping that they could re-write or at least withhold the truth of the history of those events to subsequent Human generations...
The nuclear weapons, I'm not too sure what you're refering to, although I seem to remember Archer having a vision of Surak while carrying his katra, where he conversed with Surak shortly after nuclear detonations had taken place...
The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Not the war, the negotiations... ENT never showed the Romulan War...
And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
I said the premise of the war, which means it's set up and backstory. But yes, Robu encounters Nero prior to when Balance of Terror happens so the Prime Universe (as Robu is referring to the past when he speaks to Nero even though the conversation is now technically happening in the KT) already has diplomatic relations with Romulus (they mention ambassadors or something to that effect).
There's also the fact the Andorians have encountered the Romulans directly and were Earth's closest ally in the early Coalition and they dislike the Vulcans not to be motivated to keep the relationship between the two a secret.
Ahh, yes, I see what you're refering to I'd disagree, as I don't think ENT really showed enough to truly reflect changes, but I would agree that they sailed pretty close to the wind with it
Well there's the direct Andorian/Romulan contact for one. Then the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan Command is another. The lack of primitive nuclear weapons is another.
I don't recal that, what was it?
The Romulan infiltration of the High Command, as I mentioned, can be explained away by the comparatively short Human lifespans, and the Vulcans likely hoping that they could re-write or at least withhold the truth of the history of those events to subsequent Human generations...
The nuclear weapons, I'm not too sure what you're refering to, although I seem to remember Archer having a vision of Surak while carrying his katra, where he conversed with Surak shortly after nuclear detonations had taken place...
In 'Balance of Terror' Spock referred to the Earth-Romulan War as having been fought with 'primitive atomic weapons'.
The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Not the war, the negotiations... ENT never showed the Romulan War...
And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
I said the premise of the war, which means it's set up and backstory. But yes, Robu encounters Nero prior to when Balance of Terror happens so the Prime Universe (as Robu is referring to the past when he speaks to Nero even though the conversation is now technically happening in the KT) already has diplomatic relations with Romulus (they mention ambassadors or something to that effect).
There's also the fact the Andorians have encountered the Romulans directly and were Earth's closest ally in the early Coalition and they dislike the Vulcans not to be motivated to keep the relationship between the two a secret.
Ahh, yes, I see what you're refering to I'd disagree, as I don't think ENT really showed enough to truly reflect changes, but I would agree that they sailed pretty close to the wind with it
Well there's the direct Andorian/Romulan contact for one. Then the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan Command is another. The lack of primitive nuclear weapons is another.
I don't recal that, what was it?
The Romulan infiltration of the High Command, as I mentioned, can be explained away by the comparatively short Human lifespans, and the Vulcans likely hoping that they could re-write or at least withhold the truth of the history of those events to subsequent Human generations...
The nuclear weapons, I'm not too sure what you're refering to, although I seem to remember Archer having a vision of Surak while carrying his katra, where he conversed with Surak shortly after nuclear detonations had taken place...
An Andorian was captured by and was effectively working for the Romulans and was able to telepathically contact his sister who was working with Shran and Archer.
ENT managed to give us Vulcans who were not d1cks (such as Sovol). Some were ultra nationalists (T'Pau) but would likely despise the Romulans more than they did humans and it's very likely T'Pau would have shared the infiltration if she'd known, especially if she'd be able to use it to gain more power on Vulcan.
The nukes bit was a response to Balance of Terror claiming the war was fought with primitive atomic weapons which it was not. Even the Franklin was equipped with sophisticated Spatial Torpedoes, and the NX-01 had fancy fandangled Photon Torpedos.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Don't forget that during the events of Enterprise the Vulcan High Command was under the direct control of multiple Romulan operatives, which included the leader of the High Command himself. This doesn't excuse the pervasive Vulcan bigotry by any means.
That's very true, but bear in mind that the Romulan departure, would have been the equivalent of a small country's population leaving, there would have been people on Vulcan who had familial ancestors leaving. For example, a friend of mine, is a direct descendant of Robert Devereaux, 2nd Earl of Essex, and is well aware of her family history. I find it unlikely that Vulcans (certainly in the ENT era) were completely unaware of any historical ancestors who left Vulcan to become Romulans
But when the Romulans left Vulcan, they hadn't taken the name Romulan yet. No one who was related to one of the leaving Vulcans would have known that they were going to become Romulans, because Romulans as a racial identity didn't exist yet. So until the Romulans made contact around the ENT era, no Vulcan knew what had become of them, and that information only came to the public's light during Balance of Terror when Spock learned the Romulans were volcanoid.
The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Not the war, the negotiations... ENT never showed the Romulan War...
And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
I said the premise of the war, which means it's set up and backstory. But yes, Robu encounters Nero prior to when Balance of Terror happens so the Prime Universe (as Robu is referring to the past when he speaks to Nero even though the conversation is now technically happening in the KT) already has diplomatic relations with Romulus (they mention ambassadors or something to that effect).
There's also the fact the Andorians have encountered the Romulans directly and were Earth's closest ally in the early Coalition and they dislike the Vulcans not to be motivated to keep the relationship between the two a secret.
Ahh, yes, I see what you're refering to I'd disagree, as I don't think ENT really showed enough to truly reflect changes, but I would agree that they sailed pretty close to the wind with it
Well there's the direct Andorian/Romulan contact for one. Then the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan Command is another. The lack of primitive nuclear weapons is another.
I don't recal that, what was it?
The Romulan infiltration of the High Command, as I mentioned, can be explained away by the comparatively short Human lifespans, and the Vulcans likely hoping that they could re-write or at least withhold the truth of the history of those events to subsequent Human generations...
The nuclear weapons, I'm not too sure what you're refering to, although I seem to remember Archer having a vision of Surak while carrying his katra, where he conversed with Surak shortly after nuclear detonations had taken place...
In 'Balance of Terror' Spock referred to the Earth-Romulan War as having been fought with 'primitive atomic weapons'.
Perhaps they were used... Don't forget, most of TOS was written, in an era of Nuclear Fear, without any real intent of it ever becoming part of a massive ongoing saga which would refer back to said plot points... Such a comment could either be seen as an indication of when it was written, a detail which gets retconned, or somehow shown as accurate
The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Not the war, the negotiations... ENT never showed the Romulan War...
And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
I said the premise of the war, which means it's set up and backstory. But yes, Robu encounters Nero prior to when Balance of Terror happens so the Prime Universe (as Robu is referring to the past when he speaks to Nero even though the conversation is now technically happening in the KT) already has diplomatic relations with Romulus (they mention ambassadors or something to that effect).
There's also the fact the Andorians have encountered the Romulans directly and were Earth's closest ally in the early Coalition and they dislike the Vulcans not to be motivated to keep the relationship between the two a secret.
Ahh, yes, I see what you're refering to I'd disagree, as I don't think ENT really showed enough to truly reflect changes, but I would agree that they sailed pretty close to the wind with it
Well there's the direct Andorian/Romulan contact for one. Then the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan Command is another. The lack of primitive nuclear weapons is another.
I don't recal that, what was it?
The Romulan infiltration of the High Command, as I mentioned, can be explained away by the comparatively short Human lifespans, and the Vulcans likely hoping that they could re-write or at least withhold the truth of the history of those events to subsequent Human generations...
The nuclear weapons, I'm not too sure what you're refering to, although I seem to remember Archer having a vision of Surak while carrying his katra, where he conversed with Surak shortly after nuclear detonations had taken place...
An Andorian was captured by and was effectively working for the Romulans and was able to telepathically contact his sister who was working with Shran and Archer.
ENT managed to give us Vulcans who were not d1cks (such as Sovol). Some were ultra nationalists (T'Pau) but would likely despise the Romulans more than they did humans and it's very likely T'Pau would have shared the infiltration if she'd known, especially if she'd be able to use it to gain more power on Vulcan.
The nukes bit was a response to Balance of Terror claiming the war was fought with primitive atomic weapons which it was not. Even the Franklin was equipped with sophisticated Spatial Torpedoes, and the NX-01 had fancy fandangled Photon Torpedos.
Ahhh, but the Aenar are blind... (at least, that's certainly one way it could be explained as him having 'not seen' the Romulans
To be fair, most of the Vulcans in Enterprise were condescending d*cks... A few were okay, but for the most part, they were pretty different from what we came to seein Tuvok
So to get back to the thread topic. If a character's creator and/or owner makes a declaration about the character's sexual orientation or other attributes then thats final. It's like the people getting upset because Rue in The Hunger Games was black when the author stated she always was. If fan fiction authors feel the need to go against this they could just use Quantum Reality, as that theory allows for parallel timelines so similar that only one thing in the entire universe is different.
There are folks who don't like the idea of Hermione being portrayed by a black actress in the Harry Potter stage show... There're for and againsts for both sides: For the 'for's, apparently, Hermione's race was never described in any of the novels, just that she had curly hair (I've not read them myself) For the 'against's, she was depicted as white on the cover of a novel... Quantum Reality is just too easy an option for That Kind of fanfic authors... They need to Grief Against Their Personal take on a character being challenged, not think of ways round it
So to get back to the thread topic. If a character's creator and/or owner makes a declaration about the character's sexual orientation or other attributes then thats final. It's like the people getting upset because Rue in The Hunger Games was black when the author stated she always was. If fan fiction authors feel the need to go against this they could just use Quantum Reality, as that theory allows for parallel timelines so similar that only one thing in the entire universe is different.
There are folks who don't like the idea of Hermione being portrayed by a black actress in the Harry Potter stage show... There're for and againsts for both sides: For the 'for's, apparently, Hermione's race was never described in any of the novels, just that she had curly hair (I've not read them myself) For the 'against's, she was depicted as white on the cover of a novel... Quantum Reality is just too easy an option for That Kind of fanfic authors... They need to Grief Against Their Personal take on a character being challenged, not think of ways round it
Her pale (or white I can't remember the wording) is mentioned in one of the books.
Not that skin colour is the biggest retcon in Harry Potter anyway.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
So to get back to the thread topic. If a character's creator and/or owner makes a declaration about the character's sexual orientation or other attributes then thats final. It's like the people getting upset because Rue in The Hunger Games was black when the author stated she always was. If fan fiction authors feel the need to go against this they could just use Quantum Reality, as that theory allows for parallel timelines so similar that only one thing in the entire universe is different.
There are folks who don't like the idea of Hermione being portrayed by a black actress in the Harry Potter stage show... There're for and againsts for both sides: For the 'for's, apparently, Hermione's race was never described in any of the novels, just that she had curly hair (I've not read them myself) For the 'against's, she was depicted as white on the cover of a novel... Quantum Reality is just too easy an option for That Kind of fanfic authors... They need to Grief Against Their Personal take on a character being challenged, not think of ways round it
Her pale (or white I can't remember the wording) is mentioned in one of the books.
Not that skin colour is the biggest retcon in Harry Potter anyway.
'Pale' would tend to mean a white person, where a person of color who wasn't dark skinned, would tend to be refered to as 'light', so that (combined with the cover art) I guess Hermione was supposed to be white afterall...
I've not read them, but have seen all the films, although my mother in law has read them all and seen the films, and she's said several times that there's a lot of stuff left out of the movies which is in the books...
So to get back to the thread topic. If a character's creator and/or owner makes a declaration about the character's sexual orientation or other attributes then thats final. It's like the people getting upset because Rue in The Hunger Games was black when the author stated she always was. If fan fiction authors feel the need to go against this they could just use Quantum Reality, as that theory allows for parallel timelines so similar that only one thing in the entire universe is different.
There are folks who don't like the idea of Hermione being portrayed by a black actress in the Harry Potter stage show... There're for and againsts for both sides: For the 'for's, apparently, Hermione's race was never described in any of the novels, just that she had curly hair (I've not read them myself) For the 'against's, she was depicted as white on the cover of a novel... Quantum Reality is just too easy an option for That Kind of fanfic authors... They need to Grief Against Their Personal take on a character being challenged, not think of ways round it
Her pale (or white I can't remember the wording) is mentioned in one of the books.
Not that skin colour is the biggest retcon in Harry Potter anyway.
'Pale' would tend to mean a white person, where a person of color who wasn't dark skinned, would tend to be refered to as 'light', so that (combined with the cover art) I guess Hermione was supposed to be white afterall...
I've not read them, but have seen all the films, although my mother in law has read them all and seen the films, and she's said several times that there's a lot of stuff left out of the movies which is in the books...
It's not that hard to read them. I picked up the first four for about 3 quid in Help the Aged or somewhere.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
Sure, there may have been nothing to prevent a 1/4 Romulan from entering Starfleet. In fact, Spock's protege was 1/2 Romulan. But there are many family secrets that people work hard to keep secret, even long after revealing it would make little difference.
The point isn't even so much why did he tell the lie, but why continue to do so once he was in a hearing... The most simple and identifiable answer, is: fear of the consequences. For one to have fear of consequences, there have to be consequences to fear... The fact that he was lying about his ancestry, suggests that revelation of said ancestry would be unfavourable...
Why continue in the hearing? Well, he'd apparently been in Starfleet for years. And every time someone asked him about his ancestry he told the same story. So when Sadie asked him, he did the same thing he'd done every other time.
My character Tsin'xing
And just because a society has become enlightened, doesn't necessarily mean that all of its members have kept pace. I could offer tidbits from personal experience, but let's keep this to Trek - anyone remember the navigator in the episode "Balance of Terror", after they got their first look at a Romulan? His reaction to Spock after that wasn't in the "oh so enlightened" mode that Roddenberry preached of in "The Savage Curtain"...
When ENT started, and it was revealed that one of the crew was actually from the future, my initial guess(and hope) was that it was Malcolm. His complaint about scans not being a standard procedure, etc, seemed to show someone who was used to standard procedure, and finding it frustrating to be dealing with people who didn't have standard procedures, rather than someone who was simply trying to bring about sound operating practices (again for the benefit of literally everyone else) To say I was disappointed when that timetraveler turned out to be an inconsequential background no-body would be an understatement. Not because I'd guessed wrong, but because it didn't actually change the status quo for how everyone would have then behaved toward said character, and because it didn't really live up to the expectation intentionally generated by the comment. The comment lead one to believe that it was refering to one of the principle characters (the senior officers) not an unknown. (I just worked out that they may have been inspired by Under Seige (which I haven't seen) where the chef turns out to be the biggest bad*ss on the ship...)
That 'chef' thing seems to be a bit of a trope, because in The Hunt for Red October, the crewmember who tried to destroy the sub was actually the boat's cook!
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Completely understandable, and something which ENT somewhat illustrated: Since the Romulan War, Vulcan (as a planet/political body) allowed Humanity (and presumeably everyone else) to have the assumption that Romulans were a race as distinct and unique as say Andorians, Tellarites and Klingons. But they weren't/aren't... Romulans are just Vulcans who refused to be bound by Surak's manifesto. Romulans are actually the True Vulcans, who remained true to the Old Ways, rather than re-inventing their entire society by route of mass-conformity. What ENT showed us with the treatment of the Syranites, hints at the same levels of ideological bigotry and borderline fascism/totalitarianism, which must have existed just prior to the Time of the Sundering. Bearing that notion in mind, is it any wonder why disinformation, guardedness, secrecy and paranoia are the underpinnings of the Romulan psychology?
This level of same-ness is best shown in Trek 09, when the Enterprise's original communications officer reports: "Sir, I'm not sure I can distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan..."
The Earth-Romulan Treaty was established entirely over radio.
It was established via communicated language.
It doesn't matter what format that language took, because the base language being used needs to be understood. For example, we're using the Roman alphabet; We could use binary, or Morse, but we would still be communicating in, and need to understand, English, for said messages to make sense. Are we seriously to believe that no Human linguists working on the Treaty talks realized that these aliens were talking to them in a language they already understood (Vuhlkansu) It's unlikely, bordering on incredulity, that Romulans would agree to the use of a ligua-franca to aid in negotiations (because they would want to know exactly what these Terrhasu are saying!) so the assumption must be that they were sending messages in Rihan, which were then being translated into English. But who was doing the translation? As noted, clearly not Human liguists, so if not, who?
Given the behaviours of the High Command seen in ENT, it's very easy to see Vulcan stepping up as an intermediary, and every good Human knows that Vulcans are our friends and we trust what they tell us, because Vulcan's can't lie. But the truth behind that mediation, would be to keep from Humanity (and the rest of the fledgeling Federation) that Romulans are really Vulcans! Vulcans who didn't agree with the behaviour of 'the Vulcan Establishment! (which at this point, many Humans also took issue with) When faced with the prospect of losing its Elder Brother stranglehold on Humanity to new allies who would well and truly share the dark secrets of Vulcan's past, the logical action is to act as mediator to control the flow of information and keep Humanity from ever learning the truth. So to bring things back to the afore-mentioned navigator: This is someone dealing with the revelation that everything he's ever been told about Romulans (from Vulcan sources) is potentially a lie. Are you really surprized that he is suddenly wary of Spock (and by extension, the Vulcan heirarchy which misled him/Humanity for over a hundred years) ? There's a difference between the message Rodenberry preached through a mouthpiece like Kirk, and the, pardon the expression, logic of how the situation actually would have been... The Federation may have ideals and people may strive to live up to them, but on a day-to-day basis, putting their pants on one hoof at a time like the rest of us, these are still Humans, and genrally, Humans have a strong aversion to liars and manipulators, and they take exception when they find out they have been lied to and manipulated. Especially by their friends... Again, is it any wonder that this navigator would now view Spock with suspicion?
The Enterprise Romulan War novel 'Beneath the Raptor's Wings' may provide an answer to the language question. The Klingons already had diplomatic relations with the Romulans and the Coalition, so it's possible that thlingan'hol was used as an intermediary language. Alternatively, they might have used something similar to Babylon 5's interlac, which is a language specifically designed to be easily translated for communication between two races which don't know each other's language.
Or that the Romulans had learned English.
As to 'Vulcan's deep dark secret', I'd like to point out that while the Vulcan High Command in ENT had dealings with Romulans, there's no indication that the general public (or even T'Pau's administration) knew until 'A Balance of Terror', where Spock was as surprised as everybody else to discover the Romulans were Vulcanoid.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
It's possible, yes, but unlikely, because as I mentioned, the Romulans would want to know exactly what was being said by the Humans...
And yes, that is my point entirely, that the Vulcan government was not open about things. Something else which may have factored into the logic of the Vulcans of the day (when the negotiations took place) is that Humans only have just over a third of a Vulcan/Romulan lifespan. It would have occured to them (the Vulcans) that the Earth's current world leaders (and those on Andor and Tellar) would die and be replaced before the Vulcan counterparts even retire... With at least two or three success generational shifts of leadership, it would be very easy for the still-alive Vulcans to simply say "No, things weren't like that then... This is how they were..." And have that testimony taken without question due to the Vulcan's seniority (in years) and direct experience of having been alive at the time. A bit like the meme doing the rounds about a generation of American children now learning about 9/11 as a historical event which they did not personally witness. A version of events sorry, curriculum, hasn't yet been formulated to discuss the topic from a historical standpoint. All I have to say to an American student, is "Hey, I was actually alive when that happened... I remember exactly what happened..." and they're going to, at the very least, consider my direct testimony as having some validity. That's the kind of intellectual stranglehold Vulcan had over Earth (and even its own public) back in the day. They were lying to their own people, about a capability of their own body's... Is it impossible to believe that they would lie to Earth about their knowledge of the Romulans?
But when the Romulans left Vulcan, they hadn't taken the name Romulan yet. No one who was related to one of the leaving Vulcans would have known that they were going to become Romulans, because Romulans as a racial identity didn't exist yet. So until the Romulans made contact around the ENT era, no Vulcan knew what had become of them, and that information only came to the public's light during Balance of Terror when Spock learned the Romulans were volcanoid.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
I said the premise of the war, which means it's set up and backstory. But yes, Robu encounters Nero prior to when Balance of Terror happens so the Prime Universe (as Robu is referring to the past when he speaks to Nero even though the conversation is now technically happening in the KT) already has diplomatic relations with Romulus (they mention ambassadors or something to that effect).
There's also the fact the Andorians have encountered the Romulans directly and were Earth's closest ally in the early Coalition and they dislike the Vulcans not to be motivated to keep the relationship between the two a secret.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Well there's the direct Andorian/Romulan contact for one. Then the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan Command is another. The lack of primitive nuclear weapons is another.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The Romulan infiltration of the High Command, as I mentioned, can be explained away by the comparatively short Human lifespans, and the Vulcans likely hoping that they could re-write or at least withhold the truth of the history of those events to subsequent Human generations...
The nuclear weapons, I'm not too sure what you're refering to, although I seem to remember Archer having a vision of Surak while carrying his katra, where he conversed with Surak shortly after nuclear detonations had taken place...
In 'Balance of Terror' Spock referred to the Earth-Romulan War as having been fought with 'primitive atomic weapons'.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
My character Tsin'xing
Hey, at least it's leading us back to Star Trek!
My character Tsin'xing
An Andorian was captured by and was effectively working for the Romulans and was able to telepathically contact his sister who was working with Shran and Archer.
ENT managed to give us Vulcans who were not d1cks (such as Sovol). Some were ultra nationalists (T'Pau) but would likely despise the Romulans more than they did humans and it's very likely T'Pau would have shared the infiltration if she'd known, especially if she'd be able to use it to gain more power on Vulcan.
The nukes bit was a response to Balance of Terror claiming the war was fought with primitive atomic weapons which it was not. Even the Franklin was equipped with sophisticated Spatial Torpedoes, and the NX-01 had fancy fandangled Photon Torpedos.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Perhaps they were used... Don't forget, most of TOS was written, in an era of Nuclear Fear, without any real intent of it ever becoming part of a massive ongoing saga which would refer back to said plot points... Such a comment could either be seen as an indication of when it was written, a detail which gets retconned, or somehow shown as accurate
To be fair, most of the Vulcans in Enterprise were condescending d*cks... A few were okay, but for the most part, they were pretty different from what we came to seein Tuvok
Her pale (or white I can't remember the wording) is mentioned in one of the books.
Not that skin colour is the biggest retcon in Harry Potter anyway.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I've not read them, but have seen all the films, although my mother in law has read them all and seen the films, and she's said several times that there's a lot of stuff left out of the movies which is in the books...
It's not that hard to read them. I picked up the first four for about 3 quid in Help the Aged or somewhere.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!