The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Not the war, the negotiations... ENT never showed the Romulan War...
And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
I said the premise of the war, which means it's set up and backstory. But yes, Robu encounters Nero prior to when Balance of Terror happens so the Prime Universe (as Robu is referring to the past when he speaks to Nero even though the conversation is now technically happening in the KT) already has diplomatic relations with Romulus (they mention ambassadors or something to that effect).
There's also the fact the Andorians have encountered the Romulans directly and were Earth's closest ally in the early Coalition and they dislike the Vulcans not to be motivated to keep the relationship between the two a secret.
Ahh, yes, I see what you're refering to I'd disagree, as I don't think ENT really showed enough to truly reflect changes, but I would agree that they sailed pretty close to the wind with it
Well there's the direct Andorian/Romulan contact for one. Then the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan Command is another. The lack of primitive nuclear weapons is another.
I don't recal that, what was it?
The Romulan infiltration of the High Command, as I mentioned, can be explained away by the comparatively short Human lifespans, and the Vulcans likely hoping that they could re-write or at least withhold the truth of the history of those events to subsequent Human generations...
The nuclear weapons, I'm not too sure what you're refering to, although I seem to remember Archer having a vision of Surak while carrying his katra, where he conversed with Surak shortly after nuclear detonations had taken place...
An Andorian was captured by and was effectively working for the Romulans and was able to telepathically contact his sister who was working with Shran and Archer.
ENT managed to give us Vulcans who were not d1cks (such as Sovol). Some were ultra nationalists (T'Pau) but would likely despise the Romulans more than they did humans and it's very likely T'Pau would have shared the infiltration if she'd known, especially if she'd be able to use it to gain more power on Vulcan.
The nukes bit was a response to Balance of Terror claiming the war was fought with primitive atomic weapons which it was not. Even the Franklin was equipped with sophisticated Spatial Torpedoes, and the NX-01 had fancy fandangled Photon Torpedos.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Don't forget that during the events of Enterprise the Vulcan High Command was under the direct control of multiple Romulan operatives, which included the leader of the High Command himself. This doesn't excuse the pervasive Vulcan bigotry by any means.
That's very true, but bear in mind that the Romulan departure, would have been the equivalent of a small country's population leaving, there would have been people on Vulcan who had familial ancestors leaving. For example, a friend of mine, is a direct descendant of Robert Devereaux, 2nd Earl of Essex, and is well aware of her family history. I find it unlikely that Vulcans (certainly in the ENT era) were completely unaware of any historical ancestors who left Vulcan to become Romulans
But when the Romulans left Vulcan, they hadn't taken the name Romulan yet. No one who was related to one of the leaving Vulcans would have known that they were going to become Romulans, because Romulans as a racial identity didn't exist yet. So until the Romulans made contact around the ENT era, no Vulcan knew what had become of them, and that information only came to the public's light during Balance of Terror when Spock learned the Romulans were volcanoid.
The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Not the war, the negotiations... ENT never showed the Romulan War...
And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
I said the premise of the war, which means it's set up and backstory. But yes, Robu encounters Nero prior to when Balance of Terror happens so the Prime Universe (as Robu is referring to the past when he speaks to Nero even though the conversation is now technically happening in the KT) already has diplomatic relations with Romulus (they mention ambassadors or something to that effect).
There's also the fact the Andorians have encountered the Romulans directly and were Earth's closest ally in the early Coalition and they dislike the Vulcans not to be motivated to keep the relationship between the two a secret.
Ahh, yes, I see what you're refering to I'd disagree, as I don't think ENT really showed enough to truly reflect changes, but I would agree that they sailed pretty close to the wind with it
Well there's the direct Andorian/Romulan contact for one. Then the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan Command is another. The lack of primitive nuclear weapons is another.
I don't recal that, what was it?
The Romulan infiltration of the High Command, as I mentioned, can be explained away by the comparatively short Human lifespans, and the Vulcans likely hoping that they could re-write or at least withhold the truth of the history of those events to subsequent Human generations...
The nuclear weapons, I'm not too sure what you're refering to, although I seem to remember Archer having a vision of Surak while carrying his katra, where he conversed with Surak shortly after nuclear detonations had taken place...
In 'Balance of Terror' Spock referred to the Earth-Romulan War as having been fought with 'primitive atomic weapons'.
Perhaps they were used... Don't forget, most of TOS was written, in an era of Nuclear Fear, without any real intent of it ever becoming part of a massive ongoing saga which would refer back to said plot points... Such a comment could either be seen as an indication of when it was written, a detail which gets retconned, or somehow shown as accurate
The Earth Romula war wasn't fought over subspace radios anymore than the Romulans were fighting warpless. ENT retconned the whole premise of the war in such a way almost nothing from Balance of Terror can be said to have happened.
Not the war, the negotiations... ENT never showed the Romulan War...
And as before, the Enterprise communication officer couldn't distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan... I think it's safe to say that in the KT, direct contact with the Romulans also happened prior to the TOS dating of the encounter (for Nero and his [physical]appearance to have been of no surprise to Robau, Pike, Kirk or Spock etc...)
I said the premise of the war, which means it's set up and backstory. But yes, Robu encounters Nero prior to when Balance of Terror happens so the Prime Universe (as Robu is referring to the past when he speaks to Nero even though the conversation is now technically happening in the KT) already has diplomatic relations with Romulus (they mention ambassadors or something to that effect).
There's also the fact the Andorians have encountered the Romulans directly and were Earth's closest ally in the early Coalition and they dislike the Vulcans not to be motivated to keep the relationship between the two a secret.
Ahh, yes, I see what you're refering to I'd disagree, as I don't think ENT really showed enough to truly reflect changes, but I would agree that they sailed pretty close to the wind with it
Well there's the direct Andorian/Romulan contact for one. Then the Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan Command is another. The lack of primitive nuclear weapons is another.
I don't recal that, what was it?
The Romulan infiltration of the High Command, as I mentioned, can be explained away by the comparatively short Human lifespans, and the Vulcans likely hoping that they could re-write or at least withhold the truth of the history of those events to subsequent Human generations...
The nuclear weapons, I'm not too sure what you're refering to, although I seem to remember Archer having a vision of Surak while carrying his katra, where he conversed with Surak shortly after nuclear detonations had taken place...
An Andorian was captured by and was effectively working for the Romulans and was able to telepathically contact his sister who was working with Shran and Archer.
ENT managed to give us Vulcans who were not d1cks (such as Sovol). Some were ultra nationalists (T'Pau) but would likely despise the Romulans more than they did humans and it's very likely T'Pau would have shared the infiltration if she'd known, especially if she'd be able to use it to gain more power on Vulcan.
The nukes bit was a response to Balance of Terror claiming the war was fought with primitive atomic weapons which it was not. Even the Franklin was equipped with sophisticated Spatial Torpedoes, and the NX-01 had fancy fandangled Photon Torpedos.
Ahhh, but the Aenar are blind... (at least, that's certainly one way it could be explained as him having 'not seen' the Romulans
To be fair, most of the Vulcans in Enterprise were condescending d*cks... A few were okay, but for the most part, they were pretty different from what we came to seein Tuvok
So to get back to the thread topic. If a character's creator and/or owner makes a declaration about the character's sexual orientation or other attributes then thats final. It's like the people getting upset because Rue in The Hunger Games was black when the author stated she always was. If fan fiction authors feel the need to go against this they could just use Quantum Reality, as that theory allows for parallel timelines so similar that only one thing in the entire universe is different.
There are folks who don't like the idea of Hermione being portrayed by a black actress in the Harry Potter stage show... There're for and againsts for both sides: For the 'for's, apparently, Hermione's race was never described in any of the novels, just that she had curly hair (I've not read them myself) For the 'against's, she was depicted as white on the cover of a novel... Quantum Reality is just too easy an option for That Kind of fanfic authors... They need to Grief Against Their Personal take on a character being challenged, not think of ways round it
So to get back to the thread topic. If a character's creator and/or owner makes a declaration about the character's sexual orientation or other attributes then thats final. It's like the people getting upset because Rue in The Hunger Games was black when the author stated she always was. If fan fiction authors feel the need to go against this they could just use Quantum Reality, as that theory allows for parallel timelines so similar that only one thing in the entire universe is different.
There are folks who don't like the idea of Hermione being portrayed by a black actress in the Harry Potter stage show... There're for and againsts for both sides: For the 'for's, apparently, Hermione's race was never described in any of the novels, just that she had curly hair (I've not read them myself) For the 'against's, she was depicted as white on the cover of a novel... Quantum Reality is just too easy an option for That Kind of fanfic authors... They need to Grief Against Their Personal take on a character being challenged, not think of ways round it
Her pale (or white I can't remember the wording) is mentioned in one of the books.
Not that skin colour is the biggest retcon in Harry Potter anyway.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
So to get back to the thread topic. If a character's creator and/or owner makes a declaration about the character's sexual orientation or other attributes then thats final. It's like the people getting upset because Rue in The Hunger Games was black when the author stated she always was. If fan fiction authors feel the need to go against this they could just use Quantum Reality, as that theory allows for parallel timelines so similar that only one thing in the entire universe is different.
There are folks who don't like the idea of Hermione being portrayed by a black actress in the Harry Potter stage show... There're for and againsts for both sides: For the 'for's, apparently, Hermione's race was never described in any of the novels, just that she had curly hair (I've not read them myself) For the 'against's, she was depicted as white on the cover of a novel... Quantum Reality is just too easy an option for That Kind of fanfic authors... They need to Grief Against Their Personal take on a character being challenged, not think of ways round it
Her pale (or white I can't remember the wording) is mentioned in one of the books.
Not that skin colour is the biggest retcon in Harry Potter anyway.
'Pale' would tend to mean a white person, where a person of color who wasn't dark skinned, would tend to be refered to as 'light', so that (combined with the cover art) I guess Hermione was supposed to be white afterall...
I've not read them, but have seen all the films, although my mother in law has read them all and seen the films, and she's said several times that there's a lot of stuff left out of the movies which is in the books...
So to get back to the thread topic. If a character's creator and/or owner makes a declaration about the character's sexual orientation or other attributes then thats final. It's like the people getting upset because Rue in The Hunger Games was black when the author stated she always was. If fan fiction authors feel the need to go against this they could just use Quantum Reality, as that theory allows for parallel timelines so similar that only one thing in the entire universe is different.
There are folks who don't like the idea of Hermione being portrayed by a black actress in the Harry Potter stage show... There're for and againsts for both sides: For the 'for's, apparently, Hermione's race was never described in any of the novels, just that she had curly hair (I've not read them myself) For the 'against's, she was depicted as white on the cover of a novel... Quantum Reality is just too easy an option for That Kind of fanfic authors... They need to Grief Against Their Personal take on a character being challenged, not think of ways round it
Her pale (or white I can't remember the wording) is mentioned in one of the books.
Not that skin colour is the biggest retcon in Harry Potter anyway.
'Pale' would tend to mean a white person, where a person of color who wasn't dark skinned, would tend to be refered to as 'light', so that (combined with the cover art) I guess Hermione was supposed to be white afterall...
I've not read them, but have seen all the films, although my mother in law has read them all and seen the films, and she's said several times that there's a lot of stuff left out of the movies which is in the books...
It's not that hard to read them. I picked up the first four for about 3 quid in Help the Aged or somewhere.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
*Walks into thread.... notices that the thread completely derailed and the discussion bears no resemblance whatsoever to the thread title. Leaves thread*.
Well, we've pretty much said all there is to say about the original topic and this is more interesting.
In 'Balance of Terror' Spock referred to the Earth-Romulan War as having been fought with 'primitive atomic weapons'.
Perhaps they were used... Don't forget, most of TOS was written, in an era of Nuclear Fear, without any real intent of it ever becoming part of a massive ongoing saga which would refer back to said plot points... Such a comment could either be seen as an indication of when it was written, a detail which gets retconned, or somehow shown as accurate
In any event it's silly mistakes like this that make me segregate ENT off into another timeline altogether from the 24th century shows, for which I blame the Borg incursion. The Kelvin Timeline in turn is a split from the ENT/FC timeline (since they reference the events of ENT in Beyond), but has no direct descent from the TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY timeline.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
So to get back to the thread topic. If a character's creator and/or owner makes a declaration about the character's sexual orientation or other attributes then thats final. It's like the people getting upset because Rue in The Hunger Games was black when the author stated she always was. If fan fiction authors feel the need to go against this they could just use Quantum Reality, as that theory allows for parallel timelines so similar that only one thing in the entire universe is different.
There are folks who don't like the idea of Hermione being portrayed by a black actress in the Harry Potter stage show... There're for and againsts for both sides: For the 'for's, apparently, Hermione's race was never described in any of the novels, just that she had curly hair (I've not read them myself) For the 'against's, she was depicted as white on the cover of a novel... Quantum Reality is just too easy an option for That Kind of fanfic authors... They need to Grief Against Their Personal take on a character being challenged, not think of ways round it
Her pale (or white I can't remember the wording) is mentioned in one of the books.
Not that skin colour is the biggest retcon in Harry Potter anyway.
'Pale' would tend to mean a white person, where a person of color who wasn't dark skinned, would tend to be refered to as 'light', so that (combined with the cover art) I guess Hermione was supposed to be white afterall...
I've not read them, but have seen all the films, although my mother in law has read them all and seen the films, and she's said several times that there's a lot of stuff left out of the movies which is in the books...
It's not that hard to read them. I picked up the first four for about 3 quid in Help the Aged or somewhere.
Nah, I'm happy to just watch the movies (I already have the Adventures of Katnis Everdeen Trilogy waiting to be read at some point I picked the trilogy up in one day, in two different stores )
In 'Balance of Terror' Spock referred to the Earth-Romulan War as having been fought with 'primitive atomic weapons'.
Perhaps they were used... Don't forget, most of TOS was written, in an era of Nuclear Fear, without any real intent of it ever becoming part of a massive ongoing saga which would refer back to said plot points... Such a comment could either be seen as an indication of when it was written, a detail which gets retconned, or somehow shown as accurate
In any event it's silly mistakes like this that make me segregate ENT off into another timeline altogether from the 24th century shows, for which I blame the Borg incursion. The Kelvin Timeline in turn is a split from the ENT/FC timeline (since they reference the events of ENT in Beyond), but has no direct descent from the TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY timeline.
I've always looked at First Contact/ENT/TNG as part of a causality loop, but I can see why you would think of it as a divergent path, because indeed, the Borg incursion Changed Stuff... And yeah, KT is again divergent, because of the Red Matter involvement...
In 'Balance of Terror' Spock referred to the Earth-Romulan War as having been fought with 'primitive atomic weapons'.
Perhaps they were used... Don't forget, most of TOS was written, in an era of Nuclear Fear, without any real intent of it ever becoming part of a massive ongoing saga which would refer back to said plot points... Such a comment could either be seen as an indication of when it was written, a detail which gets retconned, or somehow shown as accurate
In any event it's silly mistakes like this that make me segregate ENT off into another timeline altogether from the 24th century shows, for which I blame the Borg incursion. The Kelvin Timeline in turn is a split from the ENT/FC timeline (since they reference the events of ENT in Beyond), but has no direct descent from the TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY timeline.
I've always looked at First Contact/ENT/TNG as part of a causality loop, but I can see why you would think of it as a divergent path, because indeed, the Borg incursion Changed Stuff... And yeah, KT is again divergent, because of the Red Matter involvement...
This is one of the things that led to me coming up with my "time as a rope" theory in the fic I wrote for ULC 27.* But it's not just the retcons to "Balance of Terror"** that lead me to the conclusion, it's also the fact that Jonathan Archer and the rest, not to mention major events like the Xindi conflict, never get mentioned one single solitary time in the 23rd and 24th century even though, especially in TOS, we have Vulcan characters who are old enough to have lived through them. I don't need to know every single maneuver of every single little skirmish in the boonies, but not even an off-hand mention of somebody shooting a mini-Death Star at Florida?
No, instead, everybody talks about the Romulan War, that's the big ol' war of the 22nd century. The Xindi never come up again until STO, neither does Archer or NX-01 (c.f. Akiraprise versus the Daedalus-class model on Picard's shelf). I just don't find that plausible from an in-universe perspective unless the events literally didn't happen in that timeline.
* For those of you who didn't read the story, it's my attempt to more fully explain the way time seems to behave in Trek. A rope is made of many strands. It can loop, it can tangle, but if you pull on a rope, the strands (strings of probabilities) all move in basically the same direction, explaining how we somehow end up with basically the same characters in basically the same places in wildly different timelines, e.g. the mirror universe. Motion of the rope also leads to time having enough inertia to "true up" smaller temporal incursions so that they look like causality loops (a concept I borrowed from the Farscape episode "Different Destinations"). But you can also damage a rope and cause it to fray, which I envisioned as being done by major temporal incursions such as the Borg attack and Nero shooting up USS Kelvin (which is what Reshek Taryn was about to refer to before stopping herself and saying she was "rambling again").
** Some of which I actually agree with for plausibility's sake, such as putting paid to the silly idea that the Romulans somehow conducted an interstellar war without FTL.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
fighting an interstellar war without FTL is neither impossible nor unheard of
i refer you to exhibit A - the tau'ri
Ah, but they did have FTL travel: the stargate network. Sure, they couldn't move the kinds of forces the Goa'uld could with their starships, but for what they were doing it didn't matter: they were able to use the stargate to deploy special forces teams quite effectively, and even learned to launch armed drones and laser-guided missiles through the gate later.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
In 'Balance of Terror' Spock referred to the Earth-Romulan War as having been fought with 'primitive atomic weapons'.
Perhaps they were used... Don't forget, most of TOS was written, in an era of Nuclear Fear, without any real intent of it ever becoming part of a massive ongoing saga which would refer back to said plot points... Such a comment could either be seen as an indication of when it was written, a detail which gets retconned, or somehow shown as accurate
In any event it's silly mistakes like this that make me segregate ENT off into another timeline altogether from the 24th century shows, for which I blame the Borg incursion. The Kelvin Timeline in turn is a split from the ENT/FC timeline (since they reference the events of ENT in Beyond), but has no direct descent from the TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY timeline.
I've always looked at First Contact/ENT/TNG as part of a causality loop, but I can see why you would think of it as a divergent path, because indeed, the Borg incursion Changed Stuff... And yeah, KT is again divergent, because of the Red Matter involvement...
I'm kinda curious just how many alternate time lines there actually are in the entirety of the tv show.
TOS and TAS showed us at least 5. And then there's all the later stuff. Realistically, every episode that involved time travel represented some level of timeline divergence. AGT... may or may not involve time travel.
My take on Balance of Terror is that the episode SHOWED the Romulan ship move several light years under it's own power in less than a day. What Scotty SAID("Their power is simple impulse.") apparently did NOT mean the ship lacked a warp drive. Most plausible explanation is that he was talking about the size of the ship's main generator or something.
In any event it's silly mistakes like this that make me segregate ENT off into another timeline altogether from the 24th century shows, for which I blame the Borg incursion. The Kelvin Timeline in turn is a split from the ENT/FC timeline (since they reference the events of ENT in Beyond), but has no direct descent from the TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY timeline.
I still think the Temporal Cold War is a better split off point than FC as the future (Picard's time) was unchanged by the events of FC.
Though, if ENT is a separate universe there's no real need to have the KT as a deviation from it in the first place as the Prime Timeline still remained unaffected by anything in it.
I also imagine DSC will but a dampener on any similar theories soon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
In 'Balance of Terror' Spock referred to the Earth-Romulan War as having been fought with 'primitive atomic weapons'.
Perhaps they were used... Don't forget, most of TOS was written, in an era of Nuclear Fear, without any real intent of it ever becoming part of a massive ongoing saga which would refer back to said plot points... Such a comment could either be seen as an indication of when it was written, a detail which gets retconned, or somehow shown as accurate
In any event it's silly mistakes like this that make me segregate ENT off into another timeline altogether from the 24th century shows, for which I blame the Borg incursion. The Kelvin Timeline in turn is a split from the ENT/FC timeline (since they reference the events of ENT in Beyond), but has no direct descent from the TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY timeline.
I've always looked at First Contact/ENT/TNG as part of a causality loop, but I can see why you would think of it as a divergent path, because indeed, the Borg incursion Changed Stuff... And yeah, KT is again divergent, because of the Red Matter involvement...
This is one of the things that led to me coming up with my "time as a rope" theory in the fic I wrote for ULC 27.* But it's not just the retcons to "Balance of Terror"** that lead me to the conclusion, it's also the fact that Jonathan Archer and the rest, not to mention major events like the Xindi conflict, never get mentioned one single solitary time in the 23rd and 24th century even though, especially in TOS, we have Vulcan characters who are old enough to have lived through them. I don't need to know every single maneuver of every single little skirmish in the boonies, but not even an off-hand mention of somebody shooting a mini-Death Star at Florida?
It could make sense if the Romulan War had destroyed half the planet's surface perhaps? And after the Romulan War such evens were still not uncommon? Say, every 30 year some weird alien probe or ship comes around and levels at least a few cities. It's so common that people don't mention it anymore.
Would fit Startrek I and IV.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
See Larry Niven's "Protector," for an example of interstellar war at very low speeds not even approaching light speed.
Slower than light may well mean generations between stars, but it doesn't have to. In the unaired pilot episode of TOS, later edited into "The Menagerie," an officer tells survivors, "We've broken the warp barrier," as if that will be exciting news to them, but nobody on the Enterprise is surprised to see human spacefarers so far from home. This leads me to believe that human engineers had pushed at that barrier for quite some time, and that ships of the preceeding era were able to come close to lightspeed without achieving it. At .999 light one can easily travel to the stars within one's lifetime. Indeed, this could be the genesis of the family run freighter which seems ubiquitous in the Trek universe as well as the robotic ore carrier.
First Contact and Enterprise retconned the slower than light colonial period of trek. In First Contact we see humans learn to run before they even crawl. They go straight from rocket power to warp travel with no intermediary steps. It is almost as if the show's creator understood such technology would come incrementally, but later writers were unable to grasp the idea that sublight does not mean slow. Even .5 light is very very fast. (12 minutes to Jupiter!)
However, sublight does mean that from here to Proxima Centauri, the closest star to the Sun, is going to be no less than 4.3 years, assuming your engines are sufficiently powerful that you can achieve velocities approaching 0.9c. Shipboard time might be only a couple of years, but that doesn't help on the other end.
From here to Epsilon Eridani, the trinary star system that is supposedly home to Vulcan, you'll need better than 40 years at sublight speeds. If you're going out to "undiscovered" star systems, you're going to need a lot longer than that. And Gene never knew anything about the astrophysics involved, nor did he care. He was telling a story, not building a careful scientific background. (Niven's battle in Protector is more realistic because Niven majored in mathematics in college, and because he's an SF writer and that field is heavy in engineers and physicists. And it was possible only because the combatants on both sides were Protector-stage, and effectively immortal as long as they have tree-of-life root and someone to defend.)
Basically, if we don't develop some method of cheating Einstein, any interstellar flights will be generation ships, and probably one-way as well. (Information can be sent back via high-powered masers, so data will travel at lightspeed.)
Generations ships is also a neat concept, but it might be very hard to accomplish.
What complex device on Earth lasts longer than few years without maintenance? If at all? Cars and ships we have now require regular maintanence and plenty of spare parts. And we have factories and manufacturers that produce new ones for some time. If you had to load up the spare parts and tools that a car would require to last 50 years without external help...
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
In Trek, impulse drive is the transition between FTL warp travel and normal space travel, yet we never see Einsteinian time distortions from using them. One presumes that with constant acceleration very high speeds can be achieved which would allow time diallation to occur. I must therefore presume that either there is a cap to impulse speeds never represented in Trek, or the presence of a mechanism as yet unexplained to prevent time distortions. I submit that Impulse drive is a proto-warp engine which can infinitely approach but not achieve lightspeed, which supposition fits in, but is never confirmed by, what we see on screen.
It is certainly slow by Trek standards, but not too slow to preclude the sublight era spoken of in TOS but later simply discarded.
Generations ships is also a neat concept, but it might be very hard to accomplish.
What complex device on Earth lasts longer than few years without maintenance? If at all? Cars and ships we have now require regular maintanence and plenty of spare parts. And we have factories and manufacturers that produce new ones for some time. If you had to load up the spare parts and tools that a car would require to last 50 years without external help...
That is in part a matter of construction techniques and not immutable.
Why would a generation ship be expected to work without maintenance? That's why the crew is there, after all. (Well, that and we haven't successfully frozen and then revived any of the so-called "higher" mammals yet - cryosuspension of people is still even farther-out sci-fi than a thrust system for a generation ship.)
I'm still hoping the Alcubierre-White system proves out - if the theory is sound, the rest is just engineering, and we humans are pretty darn good at the "just engineering" part.
In Trek, impulse drive is the transition between FTL warp travel and normal space travel, yet we never see Einsteinian time distortions from using them. One presumes that with constant acceleration very high speeds can be achieved which would allow time diallation to occur. I must therefore presume that either there is a cap to impulse speeds never represented in Trek, or the presence of a mechanism as yet unexplained to prevent time distortions. I submit that Impulse drive is a proto-warp engine which can infinitely approach but not achieve lightspeed, which supposition fits in, but is never confirmed by, what we see on screen.
It is certainly slow by Trek standards, but not too slow to preclude the sublight era spoken of in TOS but later simply discarded.
You're not far off from what the TNG technical manual says. The main part of the impulse drive is just a fusion rocket, but it's supplemented by a low-power warp effect, some kind of mass-lightening field that reduces the amount of power you need to get the ship moving. It also notes that they usually limit impulse speeds to .25c to keep time and mass dilation down.
Why would a generation ship be expected to work without maintenance? That's why the crew is there, after all. (Well, that and we haven't successfully frozen and then revived any of the so-called "higher" mammals yet - cryosuspension of people is still even farther-out sci-fi than a thrust system for a generation ship.)
I'm still hoping the Alcubierre-White system proves out - if the theory is sound, the rest is just engineering, and we humans are pretty darn good at the "just engineering" part.
I think a lot of the "spare parts" issues with generation ships would be resolved by advances in manufacturing such as 3D printing, although that does mean the ship is going to need its own factories aboard in addition to everything else.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Generations ships is also a neat concept, but it might be very hard to accomplish.
What complex device on Earth lasts longer than few years without maintenance? If at all? Cars and ships we have now require regular maintanence and plenty of spare parts. And we have factories and manufacturers that produce new ones for some time. If you had to load up the spare parts and tools that a car would require to last 50 years without external help...
I think you will find the reason for that is because of capitalism rather than any genuine flaw with the technology. Why sell something that will last when you can resell them a replacement every few years?
It is considered "poor business practice" to sell high quality products, because you can only sell them once. If you had a genuine need to have a ship that would last you could build one (more likely you'd end up with a highly expensive "repair contract" demanding several trained crew members employed by the construction company who could repair it on the way).
The Federation don't have this problem because they've wiped out all that sort of stuff. You may get the occasional Scotty who will short change the rest of the crew to make himself look good, but that's the worst you'll find.
I think you will find the reason for that is because of capitalism rather than any genuine flaw with the technology. Why sell something that will last when you can resell them a replacement every few years?
It is considered "poor business practice" to sell high quality products, because you can only sell them once. If you had a genuine need to have a ship that would last you could build one (more likely you'd end up with a highly expensive "repair contract" demanding several trained crew members employed by the construction company who could repair it on the way).
The Federation don't have this problem because they've wiped out all that sort of stuff. You may get the occasional Scotty who will short change the rest of the crew to make himself look good, but that's the worst you'll find.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
Hey, at least it's leading us back to Star Trek!
My character Tsin'xing
An Andorian was captured by and was effectively working for the Romulans and was able to telepathically contact his sister who was working with Shran and Archer.
ENT managed to give us Vulcans who were not d1cks (such as Sovol). Some were ultra nationalists (T'Pau) but would likely despise the Romulans more than they did humans and it's very likely T'Pau would have shared the infiltration if she'd known, especially if she'd be able to use it to gain more power on Vulcan.
The nukes bit was a response to Balance of Terror claiming the war was fought with primitive atomic weapons which it was not. Even the Franklin was equipped with sophisticated Spatial Torpedoes, and the NX-01 had fancy fandangled Photon Torpedos.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Perhaps they were used... Don't forget, most of TOS was written, in an era of Nuclear Fear, without any real intent of it ever becoming part of a massive ongoing saga which would refer back to said plot points... Such a comment could either be seen as an indication of when it was written, a detail which gets retconned, or somehow shown as accurate
To be fair, most of the Vulcans in Enterprise were condescending d*cks... A few were okay, but for the most part, they were pretty different from what we came to seein Tuvok
Her pale (or white I can't remember the wording) is mentioned in one of the books.
Not that skin colour is the biggest retcon in Harry Potter anyway.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I've not read them, but have seen all the films, although my mother in law has read them all and seen the films, and she's said several times that there's a lot of stuff left out of the movies which is in the books...
It's not that hard to read them. I picked up the first four for about 3 quid in Help the Aged or somewhere.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
In any event it's silly mistakes like this that make me segregate ENT off into another timeline altogether from the 24th century shows, for which I blame the Borg incursion. The Kelvin Timeline in turn is a split from the ENT/FC timeline (since they reference the events of ENT in Beyond), but has no direct descent from the TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY timeline.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
No, instead, everybody talks about the Romulan War, that's the big ol' war of the 22nd century. The Xindi never come up again until STO, neither does Archer or NX-01 (c.f. Akiraprise versus the Daedalus-class model on Picard's shelf). I just don't find that plausible from an in-universe perspective unless the events literally didn't happen in that timeline.
* For those of you who didn't read the story, it's my attempt to more fully explain the way time seems to behave in Trek. A rope is made of many strands. It can loop, it can tangle, but if you pull on a rope, the strands (strings of probabilities) all move in basically the same direction, explaining how we somehow end up with basically the same characters in basically the same places in wildly different timelines, e.g. the mirror universe. Motion of the rope also leads to time having enough inertia to "true up" smaller temporal incursions so that they look like causality loops (a concept I borrowed from the Farscape episode "Different Destinations"). But you can also damage a rope and cause it to fray, which I envisioned as being done by major temporal incursions such as the Borg attack and Nero shooting up USS Kelvin (which is what Reshek Taryn was about to refer to before stopping herself and saying she was "rambling again").
** Some of which I actually agree with for plausibility's sake, such as putting paid to the silly idea that the Romulans somehow conducted an interstellar war without FTL.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
i refer you to exhibit A - the tau'ri
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Ah, but they did have FTL travel: the stargate network. Sure, they couldn't move the kinds of forces the Goa'uld could with their starships, but for what they were doing it didn't matter: they were able to use the stargate to deploy special forces teams quite effectively, and even learned to launch armed drones and laser-guided missiles through the gate later.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
TOS and TAS showed us at least 5. And then there's all the later stuff. Realistically, every episode that involved time travel represented some level of timeline divergence. AGT... may or may not involve time travel.
My take on Balance of Terror is that the episode SHOWED the Romulan ship move several light years under it's own power in less than a day. What Scotty SAID("Their power is simple impulse.") apparently did NOT mean the ship lacked a warp drive. Most plausible explanation is that he was talking about the size of the ship's main generator or something.
My character Tsin'xing
I still think the Temporal Cold War is a better split off point than FC as the future (Picard's time) was unchanged by the events of FC.
Though, if ENT is a separate universe there's no real need to have the KT as a deviation from it in the first place as the Prime Timeline still remained unaffected by anything in it.
I also imagine DSC will but a dampener on any similar theories soon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Would fit Startrek I and IV.
Slower than light may well mean generations between stars, but it doesn't have to. In the unaired pilot episode of TOS, later edited into "The Menagerie," an officer tells survivors, "We've broken the warp barrier," as if that will be exciting news to them, but nobody on the Enterprise is surprised to see human spacefarers so far from home. This leads me to believe that human engineers had pushed at that barrier for quite some time, and that ships of the preceeding era were able to come close to lightspeed without achieving it. At .999 light one can easily travel to the stars within one's lifetime. Indeed, this could be the genesis of the family run freighter which seems ubiquitous in the Trek universe as well as the robotic ore carrier.
First Contact and Enterprise retconned the slower than light colonial period of trek. In First Contact we see humans learn to run before they even crawl. They go straight from rocket power to warp travel with no intermediary steps. It is almost as if the show's creator understood such technology would come incrementally, but later writers were unable to grasp the idea that sublight does not mean slow. Even .5 light is very very fast. (12 minutes to Jupiter!)
From here to Epsilon Eridani, the trinary star system that is supposedly home to Vulcan, you'll need better than 40 years at sublight speeds. If you're going out to "undiscovered" star systems, you're going to need a lot longer than that. And Gene never knew anything about the astrophysics involved, nor did he care. He was telling a story, not building a careful scientific background. (Niven's battle in Protector is more realistic because Niven majored in mathematics in college, and because he's an SF writer and that field is heavy in engineers and physicists. And it was possible only because the combatants on both sides were Protector-stage, and effectively immortal as long as they have tree-of-life root and someone to defend.)
Basically, if we don't develop some method of cheating Einstein, any interstellar flights will be generation ships, and probably one-way as well. (Information can be sent back via high-powered masers, so data will travel at lightspeed.)
What complex device on Earth lasts longer than few years without maintenance? If at all? Cars and ships we have now require regular maintanence and plenty of spare parts. And we have factories and manufacturers that produce new ones for some time. If you had to load up the spare parts and tools that a car would require to last 50 years without external help...
It is certainly slow by Trek standards, but not too slow to preclude the sublight era spoken of in TOS but later simply discarded.
Also: Zefram Cochrane was from Alpha Centauri!
My character Tsin'xing
I'm still hoping the Alcubierre-White system proves out - if the theory is sound, the rest is just engineering, and we humans are pretty darn good at the "just engineering" part.
No, that was just where he lived for a while after developing warp drive. He was born on Earth.
I think a lot of the "spare parts" issues with generation ships would be resolved by advances in manufacturing such as 3D printing, although that does mean the ship is going to need its own factories aboard in addition to everything else.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I think you will find the reason for that is because of capitalism rather than any genuine flaw with the technology. Why sell something that will last when you can resell them a replacement every few years?
It is considered "poor business practice" to sell high quality products, because you can only sell them once. If you had a genuine need to have a ship that would last you could build one (more likely you'd end up with a highly expensive "repair contract" demanding several trained crew members employed by the construction company who could repair it on the way).
The Federation don't have this problem because they've wiped out all that sort of stuff. You may get the occasional Scotty who will short change the rest of the crew to make himself look good, but that's the worst you'll find.
That's true. What a great time to be alive
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!