Therefore, it is wrong to continually claim Starfleet is a military organization because it acts like a real life military when canon expressly tells us it isn't. Fictional facts are fictional facts in their respective fictional world.
With that said, does that mean Starfleet appears to be more military than not to us? Of course it does. It has all the elements of everything we know in real life that defines a military. However, in the fictional world of Star Trek, Starfleet is not viewed as being a military by the people within the fictional world, perhaps because it's focus is more on exploration and humanitarian efforts than defense or waging war. Who knows? All we know is we're told Starfleet is not a military organization and that's meant to be sufficient for us.
that or the "non-military" claims made in the TV show were fueled by (in-universe, maybe) political wrangling....
that or the "non-military" claims made in the TV show were fueled by (in-universe, maybe) political wrangling....
There's no indication for that other than wishful thinking though. Expositional statements in a written piece are not a matter of interpretation. If some sort of political wrangling was involved the episode would have shown it as a plot point. As was stated before in this thread: In writing, characters do not "just say things". It's not a reality soap Time is limited and everything that is said is written for a reason.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
If starfleet has courts martial then it must be a military, because 'court martial' just means 'military court.'
QED
A pretty good rule of thumb, though not all militaries use court martials (military law is a subset of civilian law rather then its own thing in this case) and sometimes non-military groups have used the term to refer to internal justice systems even if there is nothing military about it.
Are you one of the people who deny that starfleet is a military?
Why do you deny it, what do you have against militaries?
I've asked over and over again but none of you have been willing to explain your motive.
My position is that there is not a hard line between military and police.
I personally think Starfleet somewhere along the line slid across the grey area, and is in denial.
What do I have against militaries? They make poor police, and police make poor militaries, yet governments keep trying to use them interchangeably.
Your court martial argument on the face of it is a good one in this case and I appreciate you bringing it up, though in practice things get murky and very political.
that or the "non-military" claims made in the TV show were fueled by (in-universe, maybe) political wrangling....
There's no indication for that other than wishful thinking though. Expositional statements in a written piece are not a matter of interpretation. If some sort of political wrangling was involved the episode would have shown it as a plot point. As was stated before in this thread: In writing, characters do not "just say things". It's not a reality soap Time is limited and everything that is said is written for a reason.
And in this case there are conflicts between what is written.
You like Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court-martial
Germany's military doesn't normally use court-martials.
Egypt gets criticized for using court-martials for non military uses.
Netherlands apparently uses some kind of hybrid system when military personal are involved where they pick case by case.
Civilian on civilian crime on international waters was court-martialed until a system of public international law was implemented. Pirates, slavers and torturers still are.
While a court-martial normally means that everything involved is military, there are exceptions.
In the US military personnel CAN be tried in civilian courts too, it depends on what law they broke. Military proceedings are for military law. Stuff like for example, parking tickets, that's not handled by military courts.
What happens if a soldier commits a crime under another countries' jurisdiction? Say they get in a bar fight abroad in a friendly country. Do they get charged in the country they are in or do they get a internal trial?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
You can find a couple of lines from star trek where it is falsely claimed that starfleet isnt the federation's military, but that doesnt make it true.
If it is said on screen, then it is canon to the IP and cannot be a false claim. Saying it in canon makes it true for that fictional world, just like it's true there are wizards in Middle Earth and true the Force exists in the Star Wars universe and true that Gamma Radiation can turn someone into a super hero in the Marvel Universe.
It's all part of a very elementary, very simple precept of entertainment; the suspension of disbelief. As a viewer, we're meant to suspend our critical faculties and believe in the unbelievable all for the sake of enjoying whatever fiction we're watching or reading or listening to. We sacrifice realism and logic for the sake of enjoyment.
Therefore, it is wrong to continually claim Starfleet is a military organization because it acts like a real life military when canon expressly tells us it isn't. Fictional facts are fictional facts in their respective fictional world.
With that said, does that mean Starfleet appears to be more military than not to us? Of course it does. It has all the elements of everything we know in real life that defines a military. However, in the fictional world of Star Trek, Starfleet is not viewed as being a military by the people within the fictional world, perhaps because it's focus is more on exploration and humanitarian efforts than defense or waging war. Who knows? All we know is we're told Starfleet is not a military organization and that's meant to be sufficient for us.
I think it's perfectly fine to say "I don't find it believable Starfleet is a non-military organization on Star Trek because....." whereas saying "Starfleet is a military despite what canon tells us because....". There is a difference between the two.
If I just watched TNG, I might be able to wrap my head on Star Fleet being non-military because many of the ships we see are research vessels or old warships repurposed to cargo runs (USS Lantree, Unnatural Selection) The Enterprise herself pretty much seems to be two beams and two torpedo launchers. So despite being able to win staring matches with dedicated warships I could see her as a multi role ship and not a warship.
But, the scene in Into Darkness, where Scotty decries they are not military right next to the 36 torpedo tubes on this side of the ship. My suspension of disbelief breaks badly.
And before someone says it needs that much armament to do scientific missions. Why was Mudd's ship unarmed?
Part of the issue is no one rescues Star Fleet, they go around behaving like either the military or they are gunslingers. Using weapons more often than not. I may draw ire for this. But, TNG episode Final Mission. Wesley did the scientific and explorer way to solve a problem. Captain Dirgo the loose cannon there. (Though they did mention him claiming to be a captain despite no formality was amusing.)
So it comes back to the whole walk like a duck argument. Despite what they say.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
See, I get Olivia. She thinks military = militaristic = evil, and she's desperate, for some reason, to make us think the UFP is the same thing as the NSDAP. I strongly disagree with every bit of what she says, but I get it.
I just don't understand why some of y'all others, who claim that you don't intend any disrespect to the military as an institution, are so frantically twisting logic, evidence, and semantics around like a clown making a balloon giraffe out of a car tire in order to deny the plainly obvious fact that Starfleet is the uniformed, disciplined defense service - the military, in short - of the Federation.
Can one of you explain it to me? Without claiming that a character on a TV show is all-wise and all-knowing, particularly when they've been shown to be mistaken in other particulars?
What happens if a soldier commits a crime under another countries' jurisdiction? Say they get in a bar fight abroad in a friendly country. Do they get charged in the country they are in or do they get a internal trial?
That depends on the specifics of the local laws, and whether there is a treaty about that. In some countries there's a SOFA(Status of Forces Agreement) that says that US personnel will always be held accountable by US law(and vice versa).
Then there's the question of whether the local cops actually catch you. Technically, if they don't and you get back to US soil(which also includes over seas bases) they have to file for extradition to prosecute... or wait for you to return to their soil to arrest you. It'd have to be something significant for them to bother with either...
Extradition is iffy, but depends a lot on treaties. In some cases a treaty has been established where the only thing required for extradition is for the local police to ask nicely through official channels. In other cases, it might require the locals to argue a case and basically prove you're guilty before the US will turn you over.
See, I get Olivia. She thinks military = militaristic = evil, and she's desperate, for some reason, to make us think the UFP is the same thing as the NSDAP. I strongly disagree with every bit of what she says, but I get it.
I just don't understand why some of y'all others, who claim that you don't intend any disrespect to the military as an institution, are so frantically twisting logic, evidence, and semantics around like a clown making a balloon giraffe out of a car tire in order to deny the plainly obvious fact that Starfleet is the uniformed, disciplined defense service - the military, in short - of the Federation.
Can one of you explain it to me? Without claiming that a character on a TV show is all-wise and all-knowing, particularly when they've been shown to be mistaken in other particulars?
It's beyond me. I try to to see things from different perspectives and understand where they're coming from, but we're basically just debating the correct synonym to use atm. Military is a dirty word for some reason.
My final point on this though is pretty simple. If any of us were in charge of say, the Klingons, Romulans or the Dominion, and we wanted to attack the Federation and go to war. Would we assess the Federation's military capabilites before doing so, or would we show our subordinates the youtube clip of Picard telling us Starfleet isn't a military so they need not worry?
Or would you realise that despite what he says, there is in fact a very large armed force capable of defending the Federation (Starflee). In other words, their military strength is very strong and no amount of semantics changes that.
See, I get Olivia. She thinks military = militaristic = evil, and she's desperate, for some reason, to make us think the UFP is the same thing as the NSDAP. I strongly disagree with every bit of what she says, but I get it.
I just don't understand why some of y'all others, who claim that you don't intend any disrespect to the military as an institution, are so frantically twisting logic, evidence, and semantics around like a clown making a balloon giraffe out of a car tire in order to deny the plainly obvious fact that Starfleet is the uniformed, disciplined defense service - the military, in short - of the Federation.
Can one of you explain it to me? Without claiming that a character on a TV show is all-wise and all-knowing, particularly when they've been shown to be mistaken in other particulars?
It's beyond me. I try to to see things from different perspectives and understand where they're coming from, but we're basically just debating the correct synonym to use atm. Military is a dirty word for some reason.
My final point on this though is pretty simple. If any of us were in charge of say, the Klingons, Romulans or the Dominion, and we wanted to attack the Federation and go to war. Would we assess the Federation's military capabilites before doing so, or would we show our subordinates the youtube clip of Picard telling us Starfleet isn't a military so they need not worry?
Or would you realise that despite what he says, there is in fact a very large armed force capable of defending the Federation (Starflee). In other words, their military strength is very strong and no amount of semantics changes that.
Hardly.
Not only have any of us agreed to, or insinuated, that Military is a dirty word. That's all you.
What isn't understood is that your words don't matter. Your opinion doesn't matter. My opinion doesn't matter.
It has been repeatedly stressed that Starfleet is not a Military. Onscreen.
That ends the argument of whether Starfleet is Military within the Star Trek franchise/universe.
Why do you ask us to do what you will not?
We have conceded that if Starfleet was functioning right now in the year 2016 as a non fictional organization, it would be a Military. But since it is not, and instead exists in a fictional universe, it is not a Military.
Like I said, characters in Trek frequently spin some elaborate BS for the benefit of making themselves look better to less "advanced" cultures. "We don't have money or get paid" for example, stated on screen lots of times, and contradicted by their use of money and references to getting paid just as often. The "not a military" line is the same thing as far as I see, they say it every now and again, and it is contradicted even more commonly.
This^ especially given the absurdity of the idea that the Federation simply doesn't have a military....
I can agree that it is possible that Starfleet, as a whole, is not entirely military and that maybe that is adequate for calling the organization non-military... However, that does not change the fact that Starfleet is the Federation's military.
Like I said, characters in Trek frequently spin some elaborate BS for the benefit of making themselves look better to less "advanced" cultures. "We don't have money or get paid" for example, stated on screen lots of times, and contradicted by their use of money and references to getting paid just as often. The "not a military" line is the same thing as far as I see, they say it every now and again, and it is contradicted even more commonly.
This^ especially given the absurdity of the idea that the Federation simply doesn't have a military....
I can agree that it is possible that Starfleet, as a whole, is not entirely military and that maybe that is adequate for calling the organization non-military... However, that does not change the fact that Starfleet is the Federation's military.
Minus the fact that it isn't.
Seriously people. Read what others have posted.
So far it is your word against the word of the IP.
Guess who wins.
Like I said, characters in Trek frequently spin some elaborate BS for the benefit of making themselves look better to less "advanced" cultures. "We don't have money or get paid" for example, stated on screen lots of times, and contradicted by their use of money and references to getting paid just as often. The "not a military" line is the same thing as far as I see, they say it every now and again, and it is contradicted even more commonly.
This^ especially given the absurdity of the idea that the Federation simply doesn't have a military....
I can agree that it is possible that Starfleet, as a whole, is not entirely military and that maybe that is adequate for calling the organization non-military... However, that does not change the fact that Starfleet is the Federation's military.
Minus the fact that it isn't.
Seriously people. Read what others have posted.
So far it is your word against the word of the IP.
Guess who wins.
You say that as if the IP is consistent in this matter. It is not.
Like I said, characters in Trek frequently spin some elaborate BS for the benefit of making themselves look better to less "advanced" cultures. "We don't have money or get paid" for example, stated on screen lots of times, and contradicted by their use of money and references to getting paid just as often. The "not a military" line is the same thing as far as I see, they say it every now and again, and it is contradicted even more commonly.
This^ especially given the absurdity of the idea that the Federation simply doesn't have a military....
I can agree that it is possible that Starfleet, as a whole, is not entirely military and that maybe that is adequate for calling the organization non-military... However, that does not change the fact that Starfleet is the Federation's military.
Minus the fact that it isn't.
Seriously people. Read what others have posted.
So far it is your word against the word of the IP.
Guess who wins.
You say that as if the IP is consistent in this matter. It is not.
Do you have a clip that has any member of Starfleet stating that they are the Military?
Yet even he (Kirk) hasn't called Starfleet a Military.
He is enlisted in Starfleet. That does fall under the terminology of a soldier. And in times of war or conflict we have already agreed that Starfleet functions as the defensive arm of the Federation.
So by today's definitions that would seem to make Starfleet the Military of the Federation.
Alas, we don't get to use today's definitions in all things fiction related.
This is now to the point where we all go back to the more elaborate attempts of explaining why the other side is wrong.
I am a man defending my home with a gun.
Later I am a man defending my neighborhood, along side my neighbors, with a gun.
And again later, I am a man in charge of my neighbors with their guns.
Never do I view myself as a Militia. Others may define us as such, but we do not view ourselves as anything other than the common people looking to defend ourselves against the unjust/unprovoked actions of another.
We seek neither power over others, or the continued pursuit of conflict. That which drives us is a desire to live ones life pursing that which gives us the most fulfillment. Peace.
Chekov is not too young to enlist in the military, I have personally known people who enlisted at 17, and Koenig was 30 when he joined the TOS cast, born 1936, joined TOS in 1966.
17 is the earliest that the USNA will accept into the Academy.
So he hasn't even been in it a year.
Even less believable for a Military than Kirk's promotion to Captain of the Enterprise.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
There's no indication for that other than wishful thinking though. Expositional statements in a written piece are not a matter of interpretation. If some sort of political wrangling was involved the episode would have shown it as a plot point. As was stated before in this thread: In writing, characters do not "just say things". It's not a reality soap
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My position is that there is not a hard line between military and police.
I personally think Starfleet somewhere along the line slid across the grey area, and is in denial.
What do I have against militaries? They make poor police, and police make poor militaries, yet governments keep trying to use them interchangeably.
Your court martial argument on the face of it is a good one in this case and I appreciate you bringing it up, though in practice things get murky and very political.
My character Tsin'xing
You like Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court-martial
Germany's military doesn't normally use court-martials.
Egypt gets criticized for using court-martials for non military uses.
Netherlands apparently uses some kind of hybrid system when military personal are involved where they pick case by case.
On the other hand:
For US citizens vs US citizen a loose interpatation of "In time of declared war or a contingency operation, persons serving with or accompanying an armed force in the field." is rarely used. With contingency operation and accompanying being fairly flexible.
Civilian on civilian crime on international waters was court-martialed until a system of public international law was implemented. Pirates, slavers and torturers still are.
While a court-martial normally means that everything involved is military, there are exceptions.
My character Tsin'xing
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
If I just watched TNG, I might be able to wrap my head on Star Fleet being non-military because many of the ships we see are research vessels or old warships repurposed to cargo runs (USS Lantree, Unnatural Selection) The Enterprise herself pretty much seems to be two beams and two torpedo launchers. So despite being able to win staring matches with dedicated warships I could see her as a multi role ship and not a warship.
But, the scene in Into Darkness, where Scotty decries they are not military right next to the 36 torpedo tubes on this side
of the ship. My suspension of disbelief breaks badly.
And before someone says it needs that much armament to do scientific missions. Why was Mudd's ship unarmed?
Part of the issue is no one rescues Star Fleet, they go around behaving like either the military or they are gunslingers. Using weapons more often than not. I may draw ire for this. But, TNG episode Final Mission. Wesley did the scientific and explorer way to solve a problem. Captain Dirgo the loose cannon there. (Though they did mention him claiming to be a captain despite no formality was amusing.)
So it comes back to the whole walk like a duck argument. Despite what they say.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I just don't understand why some of y'all others, who claim that you don't intend any disrespect to the military as an institution, are so frantically twisting logic, evidence, and semantics around like a clown making a balloon giraffe out of a car tire in order to deny the plainly obvious fact that Starfleet is the uniformed, disciplined defense service - the military, in short - of the Federation.
Can one of you explain it to me? Without claiming that a character on a TV show is all-wise and all-knowing, particularly when they've been shown to be mistaken in other particulars?
Because nobody ever grouses about being pulled off of their preferred assignment to participate in wargames...
Then there's the question of whether the local cops actually catch you. Technically, if they don't and you get back to US soil(which also includes over seas bases) they have to file for extradition to prosecute... or wait for you to return to their soil to arrest you. It'd have to be something significant for them to bother with either...
Extradition is iffy, but depends a lot on treaties. In some cases a treaty has been established where the only thing required for extradition is for the local police to ask nicely through official channels. In other cases, it might require the locals to argue a case and basically prove you're guilty before the US will turn you over.
My character Tsin'xing
hahahahahahahahahaha
Does OP have other posts in the other 13 pages that are as batsh*t insane? If so, I want to read them, this is hilarious.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
It's beyond me. I try to to see things from different perspectives and understand where they're coming from, but we're basically just debating the correct synonym to use atm. Military is a dirty word for some reason.
My final point on this though is pretty simple. If any of us were in charge of say, the Klingons, Romulans or the Dominion, and we wanted to attack the Federation and go to war. Would we assess the Federation's military capabilites before doing so, or would we show our subordinates the youtube clip of Picard telling us Starfleet isn't a military so they need not worry?
Or would you realise that despite what he says, there is in fact a very large armed force capable of defending the Federation (Starflee). In other words, their military strength is very strong and no amount of semantics changes that.
Hardly.
Not only have any of us agreed to, or insinuated, that Military is a dirty word. That's all you.
What isn't understood is that your words don't matter. Your opinion doesn't matter. My opinion doesn't matter.
It has been repeatedly stressed that Starfleet is not a Military. Onscreen.
That ends the argument of whether Starfleet is Military within the Star Trek franchise/universe.
Why do you ask us to do what you will not?
We have conceded that if Starfleet was functioning right now in the year 2016 as a non fictional organization, it would be a Military. But since it is not, and instead exists in a fictional universe, it is not a Military.
Your turn.
I can agree that it is possible that Starfleet, as a whole, is not entirely military and that maybe that is adequate for calling the organization non-military... However, that does not change the fact that Starfleet is the Federation's military.
My character Tsin'xing
Minus the fact that it isn't.
Seriously people. Read what others have posted.
So far it is your word against the word of the IP.
Guess who wins.
My character Tsin'xing
Do you have a clip that has any member of Starfleet stating that they are the Military?
Yet even he (Kirk) hasn't called Starfleet a Military.
He is enlisted in Starfleet. That does fall under the terminology of a soldier. And in times of war or conflict we have already agreed that Starfleet functions as the defensive arm of the Federation.
So by today's definitions that would seem to make Starfleet the Military of the Federation.
Alas, we don't get to use today's definitions in all things fiction related.
This is now to the point where we all go back to the more elaborate attempts of explaining why the other side is wrong.
I am a man defending my home with a gun.
Later I am a man defending my neighborhood, along side my neighbors, with a gun.
And again later, I am a man in charge of my neighbors with their guns.
Never do I view myself as a Militia. Others may define us as such, but we do not view ourselves as anything other than the common people looking to defend ourselves against the unjust/unprovoked actions of another.
We seek neither power over others, or the continued pursuit of conflict. That which drives us is a desire to live ones life pursing that which gives us the most fulfillment. Peace.
17 is the earliest that the USNA will accept into the Academy.
So he hasn't even been in it a year.
Even less believable for a Military than Kirk's promotion to Captain of the Enterprise.