I like the general direction the revamp is going in and the details on the skills now. The tactical tree is really well done in the main skills but is just leaving the eng and sci further in the dust.
Major item to fix- Allow the skills to be all chosen and changed before a final confirmation, not with each point spent. Just like in Holo now. If you make a mistake it costs you a respect token now. This will be a major complaint if it goes live as is.
Missed opportunity. Tactical was well done. But there is very little reason to spec deep into Eng or Sci. You have to waste so many points for +2 energy settings to get into the end specials. Combined them into one and add something new. Its a great time to balance Eng and Sci out vs the tac captians. Sci had a good idea with the ignore crit/heal/reflect but once every 20 sec? vs Tac bonus every shot? Everyone is going to be going tac yet again. The sci one should be changed from once every 20 sec, to a percent chance per hit received. Eng should get an override subsystem safties effect or means of raising the power caps.
So, I have spent 25 points in the Tactical tree... but I need to spend 26 points to unlock the Ultimate Skill.
This does not jive with the blog post or patch notes, which says "25 points or more..."
Sacrificing that many points from other systems is going to cause your survival to plummet. You can plenty enough points to have a high DPS build in the tactical tree, but the Ultimate bonus is not worth sacrificing other systems. The ultimate bonus does kick in at 25. The extra attached to it would be 26...still not worth that many in the tactical tree
How about combining the shield and hull capacity skills into a single 3 tier skill and allowing us to allocate those three extra points into something else?
There's really no need for this. Both are potentially worthwhile Skills entirely on their own.
If all you want is more Skill Points... well, maybe you need to try sacrificing something else?
I understand. With the build you laid out for me earlier, I was able to obtain both of these skills and still grab other stuff to bring the entire build level with my holodeck version.
I was merely offering suggestions and possible hinting at an increase of skill points
Just by looking at the skills... I get the distinct feeling that my current build will be severly broken by this revamp... and I do not like that...
Have to remember one thing...
Just one node in the new skill tree = more benefit than 9 points in the old skill tree. That opens up a lot of possibilities that will exceed your current build on holodeck. I figured this out myself today. Personally, I run a FAW/Leech/Kemocite build with flow caps (thank goodness Kemocite is being fixed in this patch!) and this new tree will allow me to increase my DPS on top of offering me that bonus armor pen and the flat bonus BOFF ability cooldown. Look forward to this going live.
[...]
Unless the entire EPS system is changing, EPS flow also affects the speed at which power:
A. returns to full from Full Impulse
and
B. the speed at which weapon power replenishes after a firing cycle.
The latter hasn't been the case for quite some time, as far as I know. But in any case, the goal of the new system is to be clear and explicit, and if what you say is true, then both of it needs to be added to the description.
I wasnt sure about the latter, but I am sure of the former. In the current skills system, putting points into Starship Electro-Plasma Systems affects your power transfer rate, which in turn affects the rate at which sub systems will reach their set values including when coming out of full impulse (and conversely will affect the speed at which you reach full engine power when entering full impulse). Additionally the skill affects the Engineer Captain ability EPS transfer and the EptX powers. Theres no reason to expect that to change in the new system.
Just by looking at the skills... I get the distinct feeling that my current build will be severly broken by this revamp... and I do not like that...
Have to remember one thing...
Just one node in the new skill tree = more benefit than 9 points in the old skill tree. That opens up a lot of possibilities that will exceed your current build on holodeck. I figured this out myself today. Personally, I run a FAW/Leech/Kemocite build with flow caps (thank goodness Kemocite is being fixed in this patch!) and this new tree will allow me to increase my DPS on top of offering me that bonus armor pen and the flat bonus BOFF ability cooldown. Look forward to this going live.
I aware of that. And until I can transfer my main over to tribble and find out if my build is broken or not, my reaction is a gut reaction, as that is all I can really give. I run a build likely similar to yours (without the kemocite), but Im not sure it will come out of this completely unscathed.
[...]
[...]Additionally the skill affects the Engineer Captain ability EPS transfer and the EptX powers. Theres no reason to expect that to change in the new system.
[...]
Well, I can positively say that respeccing and looking at the EptS power bonus in the tooltip show no difference on Tribble today. Though I did not zone after respec - which might be required.
EPS affects power transfer rate. You wont see a bonus on the power tooltip, but it does affect the power. You dont even see a note on the tool tip under the current system.
The specific specializations are gone, which is good. However I agree the torpedo and energy base abilities could do with combining as well so long as we can find a suitable replacement for the other three points.
I'm open to hearing suggestions.
Okay, well for kick off I have a few ideas to bounce around:
Stealth Detection Rating Increases.
Torpedo Flight Speed/Defence Increases.
Increased Weapon Proc Chance (think @mrtshead mentioned this as well).
Flight Speed and Turn Rate Strength.
If I think of any more I'll say
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
With a skill revamp, I think it would be nice to add a bit more differentiation to captain careers. How about lowering the points required to gain an Ultimate in your specific career? Would mix things up a bit I think.
Hope to test it out at some point but so far 12 different tutorial attempts across all 3 factions get to a point where they aren't actually finishable !
Okay, we've found a major flaw in the new system. Health regeneration in ground combat being set to 0 is not a good thing. I've just been discussing this with other Bug Hunters and I have this to say:
For @sqwished and @jodarkrider this basically invalidates their builds in their entirety. In my case I use health regeneration to offset the amount of times I need to use my other heals, which allows for the cooldown timers. This means we cannot replicate our builds on the test server because they no longer work.
Also, I don't see how removing threat generation helps tanking builds, as that is a fundamental mechanic for their functionality.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
The specific specializations are gone, which is good. However I agree the torpedo and energy base abilities could do with combining as well so long as we can find a suitable replacement for the other three points.
I'm open to hearing suggestions.
Okay, well for kick off I have a few ideas to bounce around:
Stealth Detection Rating Increases.
Torpedo Flight Speed/Defence Increases.
Increased Weapon Proc Chance (think @mrtshead mentioned this as well).
Flight Speed and Turn Rate Strength.
If I think of any more I'll say
well, 2 & 3 there were the ideas i had as well, so i'll just add on the third i had
[*] Decreased arming time of Mines/Increased Stealth Rating and/or Defense/Increased homing speed (stackable with the gene sequencer Hot Pursuit, otherwise that becomes more useless than it already is)
...mines really, REALLY need love, especially since every new enemy introduced within the past several seasons now use large amounts of AoE
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
One thing I am noticing as I am building as though for my various captains; other than specialised Science builds the vast majority are going huge in tactical regardless of their own class or ship, although I am beginning to see why the hanger weapontry option is so low down as it gives the variety of hanger ships more options when building, stealth I am not sure is the right thing to pair with it still though. And I am agreeing with others, the projectile crit change/amount choice seems very forced, even with the recent gear a number of builds still take no projectiles, so right now an energy weapon only non stealth or carrier pet gets really messed around with the tactical advancements. 7
ETA: I do hope they are working on skill icons, as threatening currently looks like abandon ship; yeah no confusion there !
One change I would think is worth doing is adding specific numbers to the talents like the drain overload (electrical dot on power drain) actually right into the tree. "Adds a small amount of damage" is not enough information to make a decision on, especially if it will require a (relatively expensive) respec token to reverse a decision if you don't like the effect of the talent. Other talents are appropriately detailed.
That said, I do like the idea of these talents, they are an interesting alternative to just flat +skill bonuses.
A few things I have issue's with besides the health regen rate that @tarastheslayer mentioned earlier, is I'm being forced to choose either crtH or critD for projectiles, and then again for energy weapons. Now besides my shuttle I've not run a mixed weapons load out for god knows how long. It's always been one or the other. Secondly for ground tree's I'm being forced into a choice for melee either increased run speed or a damage resistance debuff applied when using melee. Now these are useless to me since I'm a long range sniper, with the shotgun for when I have to engage at close range. Also I'd like the 10 point maximum available for ground reexamined.
Also some clarification and consistency on the bonuses applied to crtH and CritD from the unlocks. CrtH is displayed as percentage increase I.E. +3.5% increase to critical hit chance. But Severity is listed as a flat number I.E. +20, now would that be a text error and should in fact +20% increase or not? Looking over the skill tree the original Driver coil skill has been split, and the Full impulse part has been tacked onto what was the Impulse thrusters skill. where's the logic in that one?
So, I think the current implementation of gaining BOFF manuals is... odd.
Why, as a Tactical captain, do I have to spend 17 points in Science to gain the ability to craft BFAW3?
Under the old system, manuals were restricted to their given profession.... if Tactical captains spent X in Trait Y, then only they gain a manual recipe. I think this new system should be similar... instead of spreading out the manuals across the three trees, group all Profession manuals under their given tree. I don't know if this would still mean three manuals per unlock...
Bottom line: IMO, Tactical captains should gain the most training ability (gaining manual recipes) by ONLY investing in Tactical skills. (Of course, the same goes for the other two professions.) The other two professions, no matter how much I invest in them, should not impact my ability to train in my own profession.
Edit: hmm won't let me quote, @tiraomega in regard to ground captain powers
I noticed that also and had that same first impression but after thinking about it some more, it's not a big deal. So many other things can enhance the effectiveness especially tricorder scan. Only one really left in the cold is engineers as reroute may lose some effectiveness. No doffs for that I don't think.
The specific specializations are gone, which is good. However I agree the torpedo and energy base abilities could do with combining as well so long as we can find a suitable replacement for the other three points.
I'm open to hearing suggestions.
Okay, well for kick off I have a few ideas to bounce around:
Stealth Detection Rating Increases.
Torpedo Flight Speed/Defence Increases.
Increased Weapon Proc Chance (think @mrtshead mentioned this as well).
Flight Speed and Turn Rate Strength.
If I think of any more I'll say
well, 2 & 3 there were the ideas i had as well, so i'll just add on the third i had
[*] Decreased arming time of Mines/Increased Stealth Rating and/or Defense/Increased homing speed (stackable with the gene sequencer Hot Pursuit, otherwise that becomes more useless than it already is)
...mines really, REALLY need love, especially since every new enemy introduced within the past several seasons now use large amounts of AoE
I have a couple ideas to add:
1) Increased rate of fire for all weapons
2) Decreased energy weapon power drain
3) Increased torpedo arc
I'd also like to see the various Hangar Pet buffs modified to also include separation style pets, even if they received a smaller bonus than true hangar pets. Would make these skills useful to a slightly broader player base.
After playing around with it a bit I find the system to be cumbersome and there is too much space for user-error with not enough information being conveyed.
Buying one skill (and bonus node choice) at a time will have me going to third party sites to plan every build before doing it on a live character as there is no room for error.
No final stat overview window/summeray has me searching all over the nodes and tooltips to find what I have bought and summing it up in my head. "Okay...I have +3 all energy levels here, now here I have +2 to engines, here is X bonus to Y, here's another bonus...add 5 drop the 1..."
So, please rethink the buying mechanic and add an (optional) window where I can see my final stats with all basic, item and skill bonuses included. If you could even include my ship's current power levels in the calculations I'd be even more grateful.
Have not been able to get on yet. Would like to know I'd anyone has found out how our skills boosting consoles, deflectors,engines etc are being handled? I have many that boosted the old skills.
While I'm liking the majority of the set-up, I have to agree with the Many: Not having a "Confirm" button so that you can lock in choices after playing around a bit is barbaric.
Edit: hmm won't let me quote, @tiraomega in regard to ground captain powers
I noticed that also and had that same first impression but after thinking about it some more, it's not a big deal. So many other things can enhance the effectiveness especially tricorder scan. Only one really left in the cold is engineers as reroute may lose some effectiveness. No doffs for that I don't think.
The real kicker will be Tactical Initiative. I haven't yet leveled a Tactical officer on Tribble to determine what has happened to that ability.
Thing I noticed also is the character status window is missing the Space based stats and Ground based stats tabs. I realize that they are obsolete with the new system but not being sure what you are getting in each can lead to confusion. For example, with 6 points in willpower, I can go over to the stat window and see willpower stat is 84. Without that stat list I will just have to remember that I have 50 or 100 depending on choice. Any particular reason those stat displays can't be adapted to the new tree?
While I'm liking the majority of the set-up, I have to agree with the Many: Not having a "Confirm" button so that you can lock in choices after playing around a bit is barbaric.
Agreed, When I'm trying to respec, I want to be able to shift things around and check out different possibilities before I commit. Not having that ability is a huge step backwards.
"Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie" - The Doctor
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" -Agatha Heterodyne
Personally I like the idea of having more skills that only effect energy weapons or projectile weapons as there are not enough.
The reduction in falloff damage for energy weapons is a good example of a nice choice. But there are no similar choices for projectile or mine users. Could we have some skills that boost projectiles & mines? I know we have the damage ones but some skills that change the function of projectiles & mines would be great.
In fact this is a great time to add variety into the game. Personally I would want to see x amount of skills added that changed the way projectiles and energy weapons function. That way people can specialize there own builds.
From a weapons prospective right now for the most part the choice comes down to boost damage by X amount the more skills you spend the higher the DPS goes. From a weapon prospective the skill tree leads towards most player builds being very similar with the only real change being variations in damage output.
Why not add X amount of skills that slightly change the function of weapons? this is something most MMO's and all the other Space MMO's I have played do. I don't understand why STO doesn't do the same as its great for space games. I always found 99% of weapons being the same range made little sense as well. It would be nice to see more longer range weapons even if they had a drawback like less damage.
EDIT: I know we have the Specialisation trees but I find they have very little to no impact on weapon function. More so as I play as a torpedo/mine boat so gain almost nothing from the Specialisation tree skill points.
But here is a suggestion...
The unlocks do they have to be just either/or at the one node?
Could we take all of the unlocks for tactical and at each unlock node you select which one of the unlocks you want. AT each unlock you get a new chance to select a new one, keeping all previous choices. This allows people to choose what they think is important, maybe a little bit of agonizing as they have to decide what to get first, but you never end up having a point where you are having to choose between two things that have nothing to do with your build. It also means that you will have a great variance in builds out there based on those open ended choices. And everyone will be able to plan to get what they think is most necessary for their planned builds. It's like an win-win for everyone.
Comments
Major item to fix- Allow the skills to be all chosen and changed before a final confirmation, not with each point spent. Just like in Holo now. If you make a mistake it costs you a respect token now. This will be a major complaint if it goes live as is.
Missed opportunity. Tactical was well done. But there is very little reason to spec deep into Eng or Sci. You have to waste so many points for +2 energy settings to get into the end specials. Combined them into one and add something new. Its a great time to balance Eng and Sci out vs the tac captians. Sci had a good idea with the ignore crit/heal/reflect but once every 20 sec? vs Tac bonus every shot? Everyone is going to be going tac yet again. The sci one should be changed from once every 20 sec, to a percent chance per hit received. Eng should get an override subsystem safties effect or means of raising the power caps.
Sacrificing that many points from other systems is going to cause your survival to plummet. You can plenty enough points to have a high DPS build in the tactical tree, but the Ultimate bonus is not worth sacrificing other systems. The ultimate bonus does kick in at 25. The extra attached to it would be 26...still not worth that many in the tactical tree
@borticuscryptic
I understand. With the build you laid out for me earlier, I was able to obtain both of these skills and still grab other stuff to bring the entire build level with my holodeck version.
I was merely offering suggestions and possible hinting at an increase of skill points
Have to remember one thing...
Just one node in the new skill tree = more benefit than 9 points in the old skill tree. That opens up a lot of possibilities that will exceed your current build on holodeck. I figured this out myself today. Personally, I run a FAW/Leech/Kemocite build with flow caps (thank goodness Kemocite is being fixed in this patch!) and this new tree will allow me to increase my DPS on top of offering me that bonus armor pen and the flat bonus BOFF ability cooldown. Look forward to this going live.
I wasnt sure about the latter, but I am sure of the former. In the current skills system, putting points into Starship Electro-Plasma Systems affects your power transfer rate, which in turn affects the rate at which sub systems will reach their set values including when coming out of full impulse (and conversely will affect the speed at which you reach full engine power when entering full impulse). Additionally the skill affects the Engineer Captain ability EPS transfer and the EptX powers. Theres no reason to expect that to change in the new system.
I aware of that. And until I can transfer my main over to tribble and find out if my build is broken or not, my reaction is a gut reaction, as that is all I can really give. I run a build likely similar to yours (without the kemocite), but Im not sure it will come out of this completely unscathed.
EPS affects power transfer rate. You wont see a bonus on the power tooltip, but it does affect the power. You dont even see a note on the tool tip under the current system.
Okay, well for kick off I have a few ideas to bounce around:
If I think of any more I'll say
With a skill revamp, I think it would be nice to add a bit more differentiation to captain careers. How about lowering the points required to gain an Ultimate in your specific career? Would mix things up a bit I think.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
I feel a carrier / Command Battlecruiser captain really needs access to both of these passives.
For @sqwished and @jodarkrider this basically invalidates their builds in their entirety. In my case I use health regeneration to offset the amount of times I need to use my other heals, which allows for the cooldown timers. This means we cannot replicate our builds on the test server because they no longer work.
Also, I don't see how removing threat generation helps tanking builds, as that is a fundamental mechanic for their functionality.
well, 2 & 3 there were the ideas i had as well, so i'll just add on the third i had
[*] Decreased arming time of Mines/Increased Stealth Rating and/or Defense/Increased homing speed (stackable with the gene sequencer Hot Pursuit, otherwise that becomes more useless than it already is)
...mines really, REALLY need love, especially since every new enemy introduced within the past several seasons now use large amounts of AoE
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
ETA: I do hope they are working on skill icons, as threatening currently looks like abandon ship; yeah no confusion there !
That said, I do like the idea of these talents, they are an interesting alternative to just flat +skill bonuses.
Also some clarification and consistency on the bonuses applied to crtH and CritD from the unlocks. CrtH is displayed as percentage increase I.E. +3.5% increase to critical hit chance. But Severity is listed as a flat number I.E. +20, now would that be a text error and should in fact +20% increase or not? Looking over the skill tree the original Driver coil skill has been split, and the Full impulse part has been tacked onto what was the Impulse thrusters skill. where's the logic in that one?
Why, as a Tactical captain, do I have to spend 17 points in Science to gain the ability to craft BFAW3?
Under the old system, manuals were restricted to their given profession.... if Tactical captains spent X in Trait Y, then only they gain a manual recipe. I think this new system should be similar... instead of spreading out the manuals across the three trees, group all Profession manuals under their given tree. I don't know if this would still mean three manuals per unlock...
Bottom line: IMO, Tactical captains should gain the most training ability (gaining manual recipes) by ONLY investing in Tactical skills. (Of course, the same goes for the other two professions.) The other two professions, no matter how much I invest in them, should not impact my ability to train in my own profession.
I noticed that also and had that same first impression but after thinking about it some more, it's not a big deal. So many other things can enhance the effectiveness especially tricorder scan. Only one really left in the cold is engineers as reroute may lose some effectiveness. No doffs for that I don't think.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
I have a couple ideas to add:
1) Increased rate of fire for all weapons
2) Decreased energy weapon power drain
3) Increased torpedo arc
I'd also like to see the various Hangar Pet buffs modified to also include separation style pets, even if they received a smaller bonus than true hangar pets. Would make these skills useful to a slightly broader player base.
Buying one skill (and bonus node choice) at a time will have me going to third party sites to plan every build before doing it on a live character as there is no room for error.
No final stat overview window/summeray has me searching all over the nodes and tooltips to find what I have bought and summing it up in my head. "Okay...I have +3 all energy levels here, now here I have +2 to engines, here is X bonus to Y, here's another bonus...add 5 drop the 1..."
So, please rethink the buying mechanic and add an (optional) window where I can see my final stats with all basic, item and skill bonuses included. If you could even include my ship's current power levels in the calculations I'd be even more grateful.
The real kicker will be Tactical Initiative. I haven't yet leveled a Tactical officer on Tribble to determine what has happened to that ability.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Vanilla Ground PvP information
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" - Agatha Heterodyne
The reduction in falloff damage for energy weapons is a good example of a nice choice. But there are no similar choices for projectile or mine users. Could we have some skills that boost projectiles & mines? I know we have the damage ones but some skills that change the function of projectiles & mines would be great.
In fact this is a great time to add variety into the game. Personally I would want to see x amount of skills added that changed the way projectiles and energy weapons function. That way people can specialize there own builds.
From a weapons prospective right now for the most part the choice comes down to boost damage by X amount the more skills you spend the higher the DPS goes. From a weapon prospective the skill tree leads towards most player builds being very similar with the only real change being variations in damage output.
Why not add X amount of skills that slightly change the function of weapons? this is something most MMO's and all the other Space MMO's I have played do. I don't understand why STO doesn't do the same as its great for space games. I always found 99% of weapons being the same range made little sense as well. It would be nice to see more longer range weapons even if they had a drawback like less damage.
EDIT: I know we have the Specialisation trees but I find they have very little to no impact on weapon function. More so as I play as a torpedo/mine boat so gain almost nothing from the Specialisation tree skill points.
But here is a suggestion...
The unlocks do they have to be just either/or at the one node?
Could we take all of the unlocks for tactical and at each unlock node you select which one of the unlocks you want. AT each unlock you get a new chance to select a new one, keeping all previous choices. This allows people to choose what they think is important, maybe a little bit of agonizing as they have to decide what to get first, but you never end up having a point where you are having to choose between two things that have nothing to do with your build. It also means that you will have a great variance in builds out there based on those open ended choices. And everyone will be able to plan to get what they think is most necessary for their planned builds. It's like an win-win for everyone.
Just an idea....
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)