...I don't think it's the end of the world. A Battle Cloak as a 3-piece bonus, while leaving the 2-piece pretty much useless on the Yamato, is a decent compromise to make the Valiant's set useful. It'd be nice if they'd get around to making the T5 B'Rel worth owning at some point, specifically by tacking on something to contribute to a KDF 3-piece set, but the Fed 3-piece set isn't worth lighting torches and sharpening pitchforks over.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
imma read the OP. Then, imma read the rest of the thread, Then, imma lol.
Bro? Watchu smokin'? Didja bring some for ever'body?
Where you wuz when nearly everything else nice for KDF got sent to the Feds?
We got nuthin anymores which is just ours.
We get nuthin new or nice cuz Geko trots out that tired old 'only 16% of the playerbase plays KDF' B.S. at every opportunity.
Hell, they don't even bother to pretend we're not really Starfleet anymores in the new FEs. Haven't played anything since LoR where I got referred to by my proper title or rank.
If there was still an active PvP comunity around here (and don't get me started on that, neither!) this might be a problem. Assuming anyone would be stupid enough to give up three console slots for one minor advantage which is only really useful for that intial Alpha Strike.
I'm actually really hoping for that new Cardassian Half Faction to show up soon. Despite what my Sig says. Be kinda interesting to see someone other than the rest of the KDF and the Roms, along with myself, getting the smelly end of the stick for a change.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
I've read somewhere that the only reason Klingons have cloaks at all is because the script of a movie was changed at the last moment.
Klingons and cloaks don't make sense anyway. A species that finds nothing more important than honour and which then goes playing hide and seek in their starships?
"In battle, nothing is more honorable than victory."
its just a tactical escort..aka defiant. The ship is sub par anyways. Any Klingon attack vessel with a battle cloak built in and 5 forward weapons will eat it for breakfast.
LOL, one Fed ship having a battle cloak at the cost of a 3-piece set requirement is not going to completely tank all the cloak advantages KDF and Rom ships have. I am of the opinion that all cloaking devices in this game should be integrated into the ship and be battle cloaks by default, since standard cloaks are basically worthless once combat starts, so this is a welcome change.
If you're worried about balance, just have Romulan battle cloaks recharge much faster, have a higher stealth value, and provide a greater damage boost than Fed and KDF battle cloaks. That way Romulans still have superior cloaking technology, but every cloak-capable ship can reap the benefits of being able to disappear while in combat.
The "DOOOOM!"-ness of this post is a little bit much considering when you consider the actual implications of this scenario, wouldn't you say?
While I'm a big fan of "if you're going to play the equality card, then equality should be applied in all directions, let's see a KDF-Vesta...", I'll toss something else out...
I would love to see a dev response, in 3-6 months, in the next "Feds need Battlecloak (or EBC)" thread, along the lines of:
Due to lack of sales (or metrics demonstrating use) of the Defiant 3pc set's battlecloak, it has been determined that further imports of cloak to the Federation is a waste of development time for no return.
Honestly, that "type" of fairness would be... most appropriate...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,672Community Moderator
Seriously? The OP is ranting about a single ship killing two factions? One of which STILL has the top DPS ship in game AT T5?
Jumping the gun much? I smell DOOOOOM thread. We reviving the DOOOOM joke thread? I had fun with that thread.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
While I have no problem with the battle cloak on the defiant and like many think it’s more along the lines of battle cloak is what normal cloak should be. I would really like to see the powers that be take the time to fix the bug on the Kor that prevents it from being able to use the B’rotlh costume like it should be able to. I really think it just got switched around as in the wrong ship got the costume option because I can make a tier 1 B’rotlh look like a tier 6 Kor but not the other way around. If the t6 Defiant could not use the Sao Paulo’s costume when the pack came out it would have been fixed by the next weekly patch day at the latest.
its just a tactical escort..aka defiant. The ship is sub par anyways. Any Klingon attack vessel with a battle cloak built in and 5 forward weapons will eat it for breakfast.
There's a Klingon attack vessel with a battle cloak built in and 5 forward weapons...?
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,672Community Moderator
Anyone want popcorn before we call a mod to close obvious DOOOOM thread?
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Anyone want popcorn before we call a mod to close obvious DOOOOM thread?
While I think it's more winter discontent than proper DOOOOM, I do think they should add a /popcorn emote to the currency buyback stores.
Only if that emote is ALSO usable on the forums.
OH! I found a gif that will get people riled up. Why I'm on a kick... I blame a well written fanfic. Then again... it was a crossover with Fallout.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Anyone want popcorn before we call a mod to close obvious DOOOOM thread?
While I think it's more winter discontent than proper DOOOOM, I do think they should add a /popcorn emote to the currency buyback stores.
Only if that emote is ALSO usable on the forums.
OH! I found a gif that will get people riled up. Why I'm on a kick... I blame a well written fanfic. Then again... it was a crossover with Fallout.
No, seriously, it's canon!
(...yeah, I know, it wasn't actually popcorn in that scene.)
Closer to the actual thread topic: Now that you've addressed the (previously) useless set bonus on the Fed end, can we get something added to the T5 B'Rel to make it worth purchasing? With the same level requirement as the T6 Kor, and needing a Ship Upgrade Token on top of the 2000 Zen price, it no longer has a real place in the lineup. Just something would be nice, though my old suggestion for a Wide-Angle torp copy/paste/add-to-Set stands. Thanks for reading.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Its just another step closer to fixing the ship to what it should have been on release. The cloak should have been integrated, a battle cloak, and the ship should have had 5 forward weapon slots. Like everyone has said, its 1 ship for the dominant faction in the game in a game where the only place the ability really matters is in PVP.....that only 15 people constantly complain that there isn't any unless you set up a private match.
its just a tactical escort..aka defiant. The ship is sub par anyways. Any Klingon attack vessel with a battle cloak built in and 5 forward weapons will eat it for breakfast.
There's a Klingon attack vessel with a battle cloak built in and 5 forward weapons...?
5 forward guns? Pilot raptors and the Mat'Ha. Battlecloak? Birds of prey! Both on the same ship? Couldn't find it.
It's one ship, ONE battle cloak and it's canon. Technically, the Galaxy-X getting one would be appropriate too, but I do think that KDF and ROM need some love!
What is canon about it? The Original Defiant class had cloak under a agreement with the Romulans...the new Defiant after the original was destroyed didn't, nor did any other Defiant class after the NX
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Was there any TV shows that spanned the years since the agreement and after the shows ended - NO. So there is no canon to disprove it otherwise. Since no canon, we can all just make up what we want or assume that the agreement holds true for the newer model. Especially with us running around on New Romulus fixing nuts and bolts and admonishing the lazy louts. They are grateful to us for yelling at their workers don't you know.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
It's all meh to me at this point. I'll take on your silly defiant cloak and when I hear you buff up before decloaking I'll pop my aux2struct which triggers my Survivor Doff and placate you the moment you hurt me , then you get subnuked and have your buffs wiped followed by a sensor scramble with the CD debuff Doff and then you get the Shiny Science Death Skills and your hull vapes in 1.46 seconds. And the tears and flames start up
I think the big problem this game has with modeling cloaking (and the effectiveness of ship classes) in part comes down to relatively one dimensional combat where damage is overrated.
If diplomacy were a combat mechanic and cloaking was less of a PvP ability, this wouldn't matter so much to people.
I think a big problem with the MMO genre is that they sort of borrow from the tradition of DND but skipped out on bluff, perception, and diplomacy rolls, creating combat systems that focus on hitting things. And when they DO use diplomacy, it's always a text box that's removed from active gameplay.
So here's my thought:
1. Imagine the game had better and more meaningful cloaking mechanics that allows you to do things like perform scans while cloaked...
2. Imagine it had active "friendship"/"diplomacy"/"bluff" bridge officer abilities that could resolve combat with an outcome other than the opposing ship blowing up (ie. the enemy gets converted to your side, the enemy warps out).
3. Then you have a simple and logical balance for cloaks.
Basically, if I could map out a major overhaul? It would do this:
Simplify down from the current power level settings. Enemies have 3 "health bars".
One represents damage taken; if this zeroes out you blow up -- shields are kind of a special case of this health bar. Once blown up, energy credits can be redeemed. Blowing up an enemy increases the loyalty and reduces the capability of same faction ships within a large radius. (Ie. their will to win has increased because they know you will kill them but they're rattled enough that you can get the drop on them.)
One represents capability and affects movement and weapons and special resistances -- if this zeroes out you are disabled/stunned and cannot move or fire with subsystems as special cases of this (ie. targeting weapons causes weapons abilities to read this as lower than what it really is, temporarily). Once fully disabled, a ship can be salvaged for prisoners and loot or blown up for EC. Disabling a ship decreases the loyalty and increases the damage resistance of same faction ships within a large radius. (Ie. they see you are merciful which lowers their faction animosity while showing them you are formidible, which increases their will to win.)
One represents loyalty. If this zeroes out, an enemy switches sides in a fight and warps out after 30 seconds. A player ship switches teams or undergoes a mutiny debuff, switching sides for 30 seconds. Low loyalty levels can be used to trigger fear affects. (This results in same faction enemy ships within range get boosted capability -- they are prepared for you -- but less damage resistance as seeing members of their faction switch sides in your favor has lowered their will to live.)
Three types of "damage" to defeat an enemy, three kinds of DPS.
Traits, ship type, encounter base stats, faction, etc. would affect the base durability of each of these three bars. Abilities meanwhile would adjust your own and your enemies' durability and deal damage to one of the three bars. And cloak would be balanced around this. You don't get loyalty attacks (Diplomacy would be a loyalty/commitment attack) on a ship that can battle cloak but you do get valuable situational awareness improvements that benefit capability and damage attacks.
Every ship would be modeled around being good at two out of the three attacks. Missions would have accolades for each style and maybe separate "kill count" progression systems depending on whether a "kill" is blowing up an enemy, salvaging them, or converting them.
Factions would have strongly defined resistances to these three types of damage. Converting Borg to your side with Diplomacy attacks, for example, would require highly exotic methods that involve things like disrupting the collective. It would require very hard to get items. Meanwhile, Ferengi would be very prone to conversion but resistant against capability impairing attacks.
More or less three types of damage: Destructive Damage, Utility Damage, and Diplomacy Damage.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Anyone want popcorn before we call a mod to close obvious DOOOOM thread?
While I think it's more winter discontent than proper DOOOOM, I do think they should add a /popcorn emote to the currency buyback stores.
Only if that emote is ALSO usable on the forums.
OH! I found a gif that will get people riled up. Why I'm on a kick... I blame a well written fanfic. Then again... it was a crossover with Fallout.
That gif+DOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM=this thread.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
Anyone want popcorn before we call a mod to close obvious DOOOOM thread?
A kindly offer, but I shall pass on the grounds that I dislike popcorn.
Also: who cares about a single Feddie ship with Battle Cloak? I am not even getting in to the cost it requires to use it; I just want to know bad you have to be to be terrified of one ship with a Battle Cloak. It is not that scary outside of an Alpha Strike. There are a lot Traits that are a more intimidating than Battle Cloak is. I see this as being a Non-Issue.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,672Community Moderator
In one of the Shatner Kirk novels, The Return IIRC, there was a Defiant class equipped with a cloak that was temporarily and unofficially renamed Enterprise. It was not DS9's Defiant. Now the novels aren't canon either, but since this novel established a connection between the Borg and V'Ger, which this game follows along with in the V'Ger looking Borg Command Ships...
The original name of that Defiant class was actually USS Monitor. And it actually survived vivisecting a D'Deridex by spinning INSIDE the hull like a knife. Didn't say she fired her weapons. She just spun.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
The original name of that Defiant class was actually USS Monitor. And it actually survived vivisecting a D'Deridex by spinning INSIDE the hull like a knife. Didn't say she fired her weapons. She just spun.
Now THAT would make for an interesting Console. Probably upgrades Ramming Speed.
Be like the James Bond Aston Martin DB5 from Goldfinger (and Thunderball) with slicers coming out of the stubby little side wings.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Comments
...than the Fleet Kor w/set...
...I don't think it's the end of the world. A Battle Cloak as a 3-piece bonus, while leaving the 2-piece pretty much useless on the Yamato, is a decent compromise to make the Valiant's set useful. It'd be nice if they'd get around to making the T5 B'Rel worth owning at some point, specifically by tacking on something to contribute to a KDF 3-piece set, but the Fed 3-piece set isn't worth lighting torches and sharpening pitchforks over.
Bro? Watchu smokin'? Didja bring some for ever'body?
Where you wuz when nearly everything else nice for KDF got sent to the Feds?
We got nuthin anymores which is just ours.
We get nuthin new or nice cuz Geko trots out that tired old 'only 16% of the playerbase plays KDF' B.S. at every opportunity.
Hell, they don't even bother to pretend we're not really Starfleet anymores in the new FEs. Haven't played anything since LoR where I got referred to by my proper title or rank.
If there was still an active PvP comunity around here (and don't get me started on that, neither!) this might be a problem. Assuming anyone would be stupid enough to give up three console slots for one minor advantage which is only really useful for that intial Alpha Strike.
I'm actually really hoping for that new Cardassian Half Faction to show up soon. Despite what my Sig says. Be kinda interesting to see someone other than the rest of the KDF and the Roms, along with myself, getting the smelly end of the stick for a change.
"In battle, nothing is more honorable than victory."
If you're worried about balance, just have Romulan battle cloaks recharge much faster, have a higher stealth value, and provide a greater damage boost than Fed and KDF battle cloaks. That way Romulans still have superior cloaking technology, but every cloak-capable ship can reap the benefits of being able to disappear while in combat.
The "DOOOOM!"-ness of this post is a little bit much considering when you consider the actual implications of this scenario, wouldn't you say?
I would love to see a dev response, in 3-6 months, in the next "Feds need Battlecloak (or EBC)" thread, along the lines of:
Due to lack of sales (or metrics demonstrating use) of the Defiant 3pc set's battlecloak, it has been determined that further imports of cloak to the Federation is a waste of development time for no return.
Honestly, that "type" of fairness would be... most appropriate...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Jumping the gun much? I smell DOOOOOM thread. We reviving the DOOOOM joke thread? I had fun with that thread.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
There's a Klingon attack vessel with a battle cloak built in and 5 forward weapons...?
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
While I think it's more winter discontent than proper DOOOOM, I do think they should add a /popcorn emote to the currency buyback stores.
My character Tsin'xing
Only if that emote is ALSO usable on the forums.
OH! I found a gif that will get people riled up. Why I'm on a kick... I blame a well written fanfic. Then again... it was a crossover with Fallout.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
No, seriously, it's canon!
(...yeah, I know, it wasn't actually popcorn in that scene.)
Closer to the actual thread topic: Now that you've addressed the (previously) useless set bonus on the Fed end, can we get something added to the T5 B'Rel to make it worth purchasing? With the same level requirement as the T6 Kor, and needing a Ship Upgrade Token on top of the 2000 Zen price, it no longer has a real place in the lineup. Just something would be nice, though my old suggestion for a Wide-Angle torp copy/paste/add-to-Set stands. Thanks for reading.
5 forward guns? Pilot raptors and the Mat'Ha.
What is canon about it? The Original Defiant class had cloak under a agreement with the Romulans...the new Defiant after the original was destroyed didn't, nor did any other Defiant class after the NX
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
If diplomacy were a combat mechanic and cloaking was less of a PvP ability, this wouldn't matter so much to people.
I think a big problem with the MMO genre is that they sort of borrow from the tradition of DND but skipped out on bluff, perception, and diplomacy rolls, creating combat systems that focus on hitting things. And when they DO use diplomacy, it's always a text box that's removed from active gameplay.
So here's my thought:
1. Imagine the game had better and more meaningful cloaking mechanics that allows you to do things like perform scans while cloaked...
2. Imagine it had active "friendship"/"diplomacy"/"bluff" bridge officer abilities that could resolve combat with an outcome other than the opposing ship blowing up (ie. the enemy gets converted to your side, the enemy warps out).
3. Then you have a simple and logical balance for cloaks.
Basically, if I could map out a major overhaul? It would do this:
Simplify down from the current power level settings. Enemies have 3 "health bars".
One represents damage taken; if this zeroes out you blow up -- shields are kind of a special case of this health bar. Once blown up, energy credits can be redeemed. Blowing up an enemy increases the loyalty and reduces the capability of same faction ships within a large radius. (Ie. their will to win has increased because they know you will kill them but they're rattled enough that you can get the drop on them.)
One represents capability and affects movement and weapons and special resistances -- if this zeroes out you are disabled/stunned and cannot move or fire with subsystems as special cases of this (ie. targeting weapons causes weapons abilities to read this as lower than what it really is, temporarily). Once fully disabled, a ship can be salvaged for prisoners and loot or blown up for EC. Disabling a ship decreases the loyalty and increases the damage resistance of same faction ships within a large radius. (Ie. they see you are merciful which lowers their faction animosity while showing them you are formidible, which increases their will to win.)
One represents loyalty. If this zeroes out, an enemy switches sides in a fight and warps out after 30 seconds. A player ship switches teams or undergoes a mutiny debuff, switching sides for 30 seconds. Low loyalty levels can be used to trigger fear affects. (This results in same faction enemy ships within range get boosted capability -- they are prepared for you -- but less damage resistance as seeing members of their faction switch sides in your favor has lowered their will to live.)
Three types of "damage" to defeat an enemy, three kinds of DPS.
Traits, ship type, encounter base stats, faction, etc. would affect the base durability of each of these three bars. Abilities meanwhile would adjust your own and your enemies' durability and deal damage to one of the three bars. And cloak would be balanced around this. You don't get loyalty attacks (Diplomacy would be a loyalty/commitment attack) on a ship that can battle cloak but you do get valuable situational awareness improvements that benefit capability and damage attacks.
Every ship would be modeled around being good at two out of the three attacks. Missions would have accolades for each style and maybe separate "kill count" progression systems depending on whether a "kill" is blowing up an enemy, salvaging them, or converting them.
Factions would have strongly defined resistances to these three types of damage. Converting Borg to your side with Diplomacy attacks, for example, would require highly exotic methods that involve things like disrupting the collective. It would require very hard to get items. Meanwhile, Ferengi would be very prone to conversion but resistant against capability impairing attacks.
More or less three types of damage: Destructive Damage, Utility Damage, and Diplomacy Damage.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That gif+DOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM=this thread.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
*Screams in fear*
"how you know my nameeeee!?!"
A kindly offer, but I shall pass on the grounds that I dislike popcorn.
Also: who cares about a single Feddie ship with Battle Cloak? I am not even getting in to the cost it requires to use it; I just want to know bad you have to be to be terrified of one ship with a Battle Cloak. It is not that scary outside of an Alpha Strike. There are a lot Traits that are a more intimidating than Battle Cloak is. I see this as being a Non-Issue.
The original name of that Defiant class was actually USS Monitor. And it actually survived vivisecting a D'Deridex by spinning INSIDE the hull like a knife. Didn't say she fired her weapons. She just spun.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Now THAT would make for an interesting Console. Probably upgrades Ramming Speed.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'