Oh I get it. You don't understand the concept of canon. Shame.
Heh, no. I understand canon. I also understand that even if it's not canon, the official Trek website carries more weight than random joe forum expert. Sorry if that hurts you pride, but it's true. Also, I like how you copied my last reply. As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
So what is your point then. Are you claiming he is Khan NS because the website proves it or that you belive he is because the website says it? If it's the former then you're wrong. If it's the latter then that's your opinion. One I strongly dissagree with due to the ridiculous amount of hoops you need to jump through to disregard everything we know of KNS from 'Space Seed'.
Flattery? Hardly. Repetition highlights flaws.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
@valoreah extrapolation, look it up. The normal laws of biology have not been noted to have ceased to function in the ST universe so are assumed to still apply. Honestly it's like talking to a small child, you're unable to even see the point never mind argue it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It's painfully obvious Harrison used the name Khan, that's it.
Well, no. Khan used the name Harrison, not the other way around. Did you even watch the movie? lol.
I'm just thinking, did Khan identify himself as Harrison, or was that just the name Admiral Loonytunes tagged on him while trying to sell Kirk the 'rogue agent' story? As mentioned upthread, Cumberbatch's Khan was way more relatable than Space Seed Khan (and to be honest, WoK Khan was no better) but my beef is that there had to be a comic written to retcon the change in appearance. The violations foisted on Khan by Marcus, coupled with Carol's squirrelly behaviour, suggests to me that she was on the end of similarly damaging behaviours...
Oh I get it. You don't understand the concept of canon. Shame.
So if something has never appeared on screen, then it isn't canon? I guess that means no one on Star Trek ever takes a dump because there was never a shot of toilet on screen?
This is the point I raised the other week, using Tuvok's TRIBBLE as an example of something 'never seen on screen but which can be reasonably assumed to exist...'
But his follow-up, Star Trek Into Darkness, did not receive the same across-the-board positive critical and fan response. The first movie was written by Kurtzman and Orci; they signed on to write the sequel, along with Damon Lindelof, Abrams’ collaborator on Lost (who had been a producer of Star Trek). “I take full responsibility for this — I was encouraging the writers in certain directions, and we were working on the script and putting it together,” Abrams said. “But by the time we started shooting, and this was literally at the very beginning of the shoot, there were certain things I was unsure of.”
“Any movie, any story has a fundamental conversation happening during it,” he continued. “There’s a fundamental argument; there’s a central question. And I didn’t have it.”
The first movie, according to Abrams, had a “very strong story” about “two orphans who are completely at odds, who then come to realize they need to work together to survive”; the second did not. Kirk and Spock remained the film’s central characters, but, Abrams asked: “What was their issue? What was their dynamic? What was their problem?” He answered: “And it wasn’t really clear.”
“It was a little bit lightweight, ultimately, that Kirk was disappointed that Spock didn’t feel that their friendship was as meaningful to him as it did to Kirk, which is sort of what we’re saying,” Abrams said. “And that Spock’s arc is coming to unabashedly love his friend Kirk.”
Benedict Cumberbatch and Pine. Paramount Pictures
Then there was Khan. Word leaked out early that the canonical Star Trek villain would be featured in Into Darkness, and that Benedict Cumberbatch would be playing him. The spoiler-averse Abrams sought to put this genie back into the bottle, and said Cumberbatch was playing someone named John Harrison — true. But Harrison’s real identity was Khan, and the attempt to fool fans only succeeded in angering them.
Abrams laughed while talking about it now: “At the end of the day, while I agree with Damon Lindelof that withholding the Khan thing ended up seeming like we were lying to people, I was trying to preserve the fun for the audience, and not just tell them something that the characters don’t learn for 45 minutes into the movie, so the audience wouldn’t be so ahead of it.”
(He added: “But it was Simon Pegg who lied outright, and I adore him for doing so. I remember when I read that he basically said, ‘He doesn’t play Khan,’ and I thought, Oh my god, Simon Pegg!”)
Abrams did reshoots on Into Darkness, which he felt “helped a little bit here and there.” But his problems with the final movie come back to its plot, which, he said, “was not anyone’s fault but mine, or, frankly, anyone’s problem but mine.”
“I felt like, in a weird way, it was a little bit of a collection of scenes that were written by my friends — brilliantly talented writers — who I somehow misled in trying to do certain things. And yet, I found myself frustrated by my choices, and unable to hang my hat on an undeniable thread of the main story,” Abrams said. “So then I found myself on that movie basically tap-dancing as well as I could to try and make the sequences as entertaining as possible. Thank god I had the cast that we have, who are so unbelievably fun to watch. And an incredible new villain in Benedict Cumberbatch.”
“I would never say that I don’t think that the movie ended up working,” Abrams said. “But I feel like it didn’t work as well as it could have had I made some better decisions before we started shooting.”
This sentence made me laugh. Not because its' meaning was humorous, but because it is written in such a flamboyant way. Your posts over the last few pages have reminded me of one timeless truth: brevity is the soul of wit.
Its a stylistic choice. You're free to not like it as much as you want but why should I have any consideration for what you, of all people, prefer to read?
Oh I get it. You don't understand the concept of canon. Shame.
Heh, no. I understand canon. I also understand that even if it's not canon, the official Trek website carries more weight than random joe forum expert. Sorry if that hurts you pride, but it's true. Also, I like how you copied my last reply. As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
Anyway, to your next charged attempt at communication with another human being I do have to say (for the sake of mediation) that you should consider that logically, without specific refutation in the movie itself (ie. the full name, at least as far as I can recall) you can still maintain the logical possibility (which only exists in that movie, not its broader interpretation) that Khan in ID is not the same Khan as Khan N.S. in TWoK. It is not a likely possibility at all (see. intent and explanations after the fact, for which we have many) but you can't really deny (for the sake of discussion) it has a (trivial) existence within Into Darkness as it was actually made (in terms of the literal information content contained in the dialog presented), at least if you want to maintain some tolerable level of rational, interpersonal discourse (which is worth bringing to an internet forum.)
And that's the nub of this next round of group miscommunication: ID's Khan not being Khan isn't something that you should (by any stretch of the imagination) take as what to believe or assume (it is again not likely) but its an interesting (though insignificant) gap in the writing that, through a literal interpretation of the dialog (which doesn't get any more basic), there is another possible (though again not remotely likely) interpretation of the character.
Other clarifications have been made, the intent behind the movie is clear, but its fun to consider the alternative plot lines the idea raises.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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So what is your point then. Are you claiming he is Khan NS because the website proves it or that you belive he is because the website says it? If it's the former then you're wrong. If it's the latter then that's your opinion. One I strongly dissagree with due to the ridiculous amount of hoops you need to jump through to disregard everything we know of KNS from 'Space Seed'.
Scotty didn't "build a transwarp transporter from existing components" - transwarp beaming was merely implied by Scotty!Prime's work. What he did in ST09 was to figure out how to use the transporters while at warp, not at all the same thing. It's not in fact clear if he actually built a transwarp transporter at all in the new timeline.
And IMO there's absolutely no need to "explain" why Khan looks different, any more than we need some long involved tale as to why Pavel Andreiyvitch Chekov is suddenly a blonde and several years older than he was in TOS. It's a background detail of no great import, just accept it and move on. All this twisting of logic is unnecessary. Okay, so he looks like this guy who was an infamous criminal - two hundred and fifty years earlier. So? If you see a young man with sandy blond hair and a thin mustache, do you immediately leap to the conclusion that you must be looking at Billy the Kid himself? (And even that wasn't long enough ago to be a proper comparison - I had trouble coming up with an infamous criminal from the 1760s.) Even in "Space Seed", after Khan told them his name, they had to look him up in the historical database.
I think the idea is that there could conceivably be other eugenics era rulers who adopted the epithet Khan, which is something never really covered by the franchise (and as reapplied to the 2410 era might make for an interesting STO episode/foundry mission or two.)
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I think the idea is that there could conceivably be other eugenics era rulers who adopted the epithet Khan, which is something never really covered by the franchise (and as reapplied to the 2410 era might make for an interesting STO episode/foundry mission or two.)
Well Space Seed hinted that there were several entire nations of augments fighting the Eugenics wars. Maybe this was a different one? Hehe..... did they ever use the name Botany Bay in ID?
Hehe..... did they ever use the name Botany Bay in ID?
Not sure, TBH I don't want to go back and check. :P
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Scotty didn't "build a transwarp transporter from existing components" - transwarp beaming was merely implied by Scotty!Prime's work. What he did in ST09 was to figure out how to use the transporters while at warp, not at all the same thing. It's not in fact clear if he actually built a transwarp transporter at all in the new timeline.
And IMO there's absolutely no need to "explain" why Khan looks different, any more than we need some long involved tale as to why Pavel Andreiyvitch Chekov is suddenly a blonde and several years older than he was in TOS. It's a background detail of no great import, just accept it and move on. All this twisting of logic is unnecessary. Okay, so he looks like this guy who was an infamous criminal - two hundred and fifty years earlier. So? If you see a young man with sandy blond hair and a thin mustache, do you immediately leap to the conclusion that you must be looking at Billy the Kid himself? (And even that wasn't long enough ago to be a proper comparison - I had trouble coming up with an infamous criminal from the 1760s.) Even in "Space Seed", after Khan told them his name, they had to look him up in the historical database.
My mistake... It's been some time since I watched 09, and I remembered Scotty modifying the transporters on the outpost, using knowledge given, or possibly strongly suggested, by SpockPrime... To be fair, the specifics of the method is negligible to the point that Scotty was "able to make something do something it wasn't supposed to ordinarily do" hence my belief that he should have been able to have replicated or repaired Khan's transporter device to beam them directly to Qo'noS (had plot required them to do so, but JJ's own above admission about ID certainly explains that...)
And yes, you're quite right that the difference could have gone unaddressed and unacknowledged. That Marcus used and manipulated Khan was a valid plot point even without the 'laying it on' of the cosmetic alterations detailed in the comic. However, the comic does exist, and given the amount of ludicrous marketing surrounding the Force Awakens (Darth Vader soap-on-a-rope, deodorants, oranges, yogurts etc) I can quite believe that JJ always intended for there to be a comic to 'tell the untold story', thus freeing up 'movie time' for the mishmash of scenes he (by his own admission) got his boys to write and then try to make into a coherent plot... At the very least, that article explains why Id's plot was so disjointed...
Its a stylistic choice. You're free to not like it as much as you want but why should I have any consideration for what you, of all people, prefer to read?
You misunderstand. I wasn't saying you should care. And in fact, I *do* like it, because it is such an excellent example of how right Shakespeare was about brevity. So kudos to you for proving the master right once again!
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
So what is your point then. Are you claiming he is Khan NS because the website proves it or that you belive he is because the website says it? If it's the former then you're wrong. If it's the latter then that's your opinion. One I strongly dissagree with due to the ridiculous amount of hoops you need to jump through to disregard everything we know of KNS from 'Space Seed'.
Flattery? Hardly. Repetition highlights flaws.
Well then who the hell else is he supposed to be?
The first Augment Marcus unfroze on the Botany Bay, who either fooled Marcus into thinking he was Khan, or persuaded Marcus that Khan was too dangerous to let live and turned off his pod.
It may not even have been the Botany Bay, several ships were noted to have been sent out in the ENT Augment episodes.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
You misunderstand. I wasn't saying you should care. And in fact, I *do* like it, because it is such an excellent example of how right Shakespeare was about brevity. So kudos to you for proving the master right once again!
No, I understand you just fine. That's where the two of us have always differed. :P
(BTW, you should actually read/listen to Shakespeare before you use that quote from Hamlet.)
It's a hopeful development and an interesting example where those responsible in making a movie are held more at arms length for its marketing. I'm sure this happens all the time but we generally don't have the reaction from a writer/actor.
Its also hard not to take it being Pegg as another good sign.
The first Augment Marcus unfroze on the Botany Bay, who either fooled Marcus into thinking he was Khan, or persuaded Marcus that Khan was too dangerous to let live and turned off his pod.
It may not even have been the Botany Bay, several ships were noted to have been sent out in the ENT Augment episodes.
If it was the Botany Bay another possibility (that requires no schemes of deception) could have been that our Khan died coming out of stasis when Marcus discovered the ship. Then the next augment in line assumed the title and responsibility.
And before anyone makes any rushed misinterpretations, consider that this is not what I'm saying the movie intended, what is considered "canon" by authority sources, or what you should personally take as "the plot of ID." There is nothing of that sort in the words I have just typed.
It's just a fun possibility created by a small gap in the dialog. Maybe it could have made for a better movie, or maybe with some modifications it could make for a good featured episode in STO. Don't rush to contradict when being correct/incorrect isn't really the important part.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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As long as we're insisting on straying off-topic, I wouldn't read too much into the fact that the prime universe Khan was played by Ricardo Montalban and the JJ-verse Khan was played by Benedict Cumberbatch. They cast someone for a part 40 some years ago and they have to keep the appearance of the character intact?
The very fact that the augments are genetically engineered and could conceivably have any ethnic appearance at all completely destroys the argument that Khan Noonian Singh has to look like someone of Indian or even Mexican descent, even if you take the cosmetic surgery out of the equation. So they could have cast anyone at all into the part without taking ethnic appearance into account.
Able to project charm, arrogance, and menace and make it believable? Check. Maybe they could have found someone else who could have channelled Ricardo Montalban, but Cumberbatch wasn't a bad choice as an actor.
Any other differences between the two timelines can be fully explained by the fact that they're divergent timelines thanks to the Narada. It happened one way over here and another way over there. No need to indulge in pointless theorycrafting to explain the differences, and anybody's guess as to why is as good as anyone else's. I appreciate the fact that there is a clear demarcation between TOS and the JJ-verse. It's a clean way to continue the Star Trek legacy with new actors that respects all of the old stories and doesn't make it necessary to introduce inconsistencies into the prime universe. With Leonard Nimoy departed, there's no temptation left to use old Spock to bridge the gap.
As long as we're insisting on straying off-topic, I wouldn't read too much into the fact that the prime universe Khan was played by Ricardo Montalban and the JJ-verse Khan was played by Benedict Cumberbatch. They cast someone for a part 40 some years ago and they have to keep the appearance of the character intact?
The point, as far as I can tell, is more to do with one very specific omission in the dialog than the casting. That I didn't have a problem with either, Cumberbatch played his part well, he's a good actor. But I know some people (who I can't really speak for) were disappointed that one of the strongest character roles in ST, once played by a (US) minority actor, was given over to a Brit who played more closely to the traditional Hollywood villain archetype (a point which even Top Gear has poked fun at).
That isn't a technical problem with the movie but a point based in the relationship between society, culture, and entertainment which has been a prominent connection throughout the Star Trek franchise (though not often in this way).
Anyway, that summary of a point raised on social media is as far as I'll go with that particular tangent.
What it means here is that the "Is Khan really Khan?" hypothetical is not (in my mind at least) based on physical appearance. What it is based on is Artan's comment that (as far as we can recall) the words "Noonien Singh" never appeared in the movie, leaving only the presumed title as character identifier. To the franchise there's only one Khan (see. the lack of ambiguity in "The Wrath of Khan"), so that decision was a perfectly valid one for presenting ID. But it leaves open the purely logical (but not likely at all, it is distinctly less parsimonious) possibility that ID's Khan could have been someone else (ex. the next augment in the chain of command) who adopted the title and assumed stewardship over Khan's people.
That idea is significant only (in my view) that it raises interesting creative possibilities for future reinterpretations of the Eugenics War story line.
The very fact that the augments are genetically engineered and could conceivably have any ethnic appearance at all completely destroys the argument that Khan Noonian Singh has to look like someone of Indian or even Mexican descent, even if you take the cosmetic surgery out of the equation.
As a side not to this: you can also invoke changing population demographics.
India in the Eugenics War era could have a significant, as yet not established Caucasian minority from which ID's version of khan happened to derive (because of Quantum thingies working back from the Narada incident). The period between now and First Contact still has a lot of blanks to fill and worsening conditions in Europe/North America (up to the EW) might have created new trends in population flow.
(As, for example, may have occurred at a smaller scale to produce the "French" accent of the 24th century. :P)
That's definitely not a digestible point for an exposition scene, but it represents just one of the ways someone outside the film could explain it because indeed there are innumerable ways to explain why someone looks the way they do in a sci-fi universe with parallel dimensions and time travel.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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Zachary Quinto doesn't really look like Leonard Nimoy, either, we still have to believe they represent the same person. So I see no big deal with Khan being played by two different actors. Maybe I am "ethnically blind" here, but then I also never really had problems with characters being changed in color or even gender. If the character is done well, he's done well, and if he isn't, he isn't.
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Oh I get it. You don't understand the concept of canon. Shame.
Isn't Star Trek.com the website that DEFINED what is or isn't canon?
Well they should have included themselves then .
That's probably just like the Okuda reference books (the Encyclopedia and Chronology)... the Okudas worked for Paramount, on a number of the shows AND movies, and did painstaking work to compile everything... and those books aren't canon.
Both, for example, mentioned a half-joke from Roddenberry, stating that the V'Ger homeworld was the Borg homeworld... but, that is severely downplayed on places like Memory Alpha.
Zachary Quinto doesn't really look like Leonard Nimoy, either, we still have to believe they represent the same person. So I see no big deal with Khan being played by two different actors. Maybe I am "ethnically blind" here, but then I also never really had problems with characters being changed in color or even gender. If the character is done well, he's done well, and if he isn't, he isn't.
Quinto? How about Anton Yelchin? He looks *nothing* like Walter Koenig, but the same people deluding themselves that Khan might not really be Khan aren't saying the same nonsense about Chekov.
...the "Is Khan really Khan?" hypothetical is not (in my mind at least) based on physical appearance
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...the "Is Khan really Khan?" hypothetical is not (in my mind at least) based on physical appearance
It should have been obvious, but I was not responding to your comment. There are other people in this thread, and other people have taken issue with Khan's appearance. Sorry you are so confused.
JJ started a path with ST:2009 and he saw that it was "good" so ST:ID continued this path and did MOAR of the same and people said it was "bad" so they get new writters, a new director, say it's going to focus on exploration and then they...
* Blow up the Enterprise from the getgo (because Star Trek isn't about Starships or space silly!)
* Hip hop everywhere (Remember Siskos bumpin collection of 90's music? Oh wait...)
* Motorcycle jumps and FF style action (Because this is FF 8 or whatever number they're on now secretly)
* Dress Kirk up as a superhero (Because Shatner was one too don't you know, I mean look at the gut he had by tWoK)
* Maked it all seem to be about action (because Star Trek never had any depth or stories, and repeating the plots of movies that made sense with characters who knew eachother for decades already and were a family because a fairly new crew of people who can't help but get their ship totalled every mission, TRIBBLE up everything unless they have help from Prime Spock, and don't like each other but somehow go through all these hoops to save each other - yup makes sense)
* Starfleet somehow doesn't mind that they have an insubordinate crew who's clogging up the shipyards because they keep wrecking the flagship (Yup if I were an Admiral I'd totally keep those guys in command of the ship. Least they can move it across the galaxy faster then the Borg (who probably wouldn't even bother with this version of the Federation))
Yeah I'm not watching this one. Not even worth torrenting and I have a 4TB HDD and unlimited bandwidth.
JJ started a path with ST:2009 and he saw that it was "good" so ST:ID continued this path and did MOAR of the same and people said it was "bad" so they get new writters, a new director, say it's going to focus on exploration and then they...
Yeah, Abrams would have directed this, had Disney not backed up the Brinks money truck to his front door. He did initially decline the offer to direct The Force Awakens, because of his commitment to this film series. But, whatever...
* Hip hop everywhere (Remember Siskos bumpin collection of 90's music? Oh wait...)
Because DS9 never featured jazz or hits from the heyday of Sinatra and Co... oh, wait...
* Motorcycle jumps and FF style action (Because this is FF 8 or whatever number they're on now secretly)
A three-second scene in the first trailer, a movie does not make...
* Dress Kirk up as a superhero (Because Shatner was one too don't you know, I mean look at the gut he had by tWoK)
WAT???
The rest of your comments really don't even warrant a response. We'll all be waiting when you change your mind about the movie.
Comments
Heh, no. I understand canon. I also understand that even if it's not canon, the official Trek website carries more weight than random joe forum expert. Sorry if that hurts you pride, but it's true. Also, I like how you copied my last reply. As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Flattery? Hardly. Repetition highlights flaws.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
This is the point I raised the other week, using Tuvok's TRIBBLE as an example of something 'never seen on screen but which can be reasonably assumed to exist...'
My character Tsin'xing
Its a stylistic choice. You're free to not like it as much as you want but why should I have any consideration for what you, of all people, prefer to read?
Anyway, to your next charged attempt at communication with another human being I do have to say (for the sake of mediation) that you should consider that logically, without specific refutation in the movie itself (ie. the full name, at least as far as I can recall) you can still maintain the logical possibility (which only exists in that movie, not its broader interpretation) that Khan in ID is not the same Khan as Khan N.S. in TWoK. It is not a likely possibility at all (see. intent and explanations after the fact, for which we have many) but you can't really deny (for the sake of discussion) it has a (trivial) existence within Into Darkness as it was actually made (in terms of the literal information content contained in the dialog presented), at least if you want to maintain some tolerable level of rational, interpersonal discourse (which is worth bringing to an internet forum.)
And that's the nub of this next round of group miscommunication: ID's Khan not being Khan isn't something that you should (by any stretch of the imagination) take as what to believe or assume (it is again not likely) but its an interesting (though insignificant) gap in the writing that, through a literal interpretation of the dialog (which doesn't get any more basic), there is another possible (though again not remotely likely) interpretation of the character.
Other clarifications have been made, the intent behind the movie is clear, but its fun to consider the alternative plot lines the idea raises.
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And IMO there's absolutely no need to "explain" why Khan looks different, any more than we need some long involved tale as to why Pavel Andreiyvitch Chekov is suddenly a blonde and several years older than he was in TOS. It's a background detail of no great import, just accept it and move on. All this twisting of logic is unnecessary. Okay, so he looks like this guy who was an infamous criminal - two hundred and fifty years earlier. So? If you see a young man with sandy blond hair and a thin mustache, do you immediately leap to the conclusion that you must be looking at Billy the Kid himself? (And even that wasn't long enough ago to be a proper comparison - I had trouble coming up with an infamous criminal from the 1760s.) Even in "Space Seed", after Khan told them his name, they had to look him up in the historical database.
I think the idea is that there could conceivably be other eugenics era rulers who adopted the epithet Khan, which is something never really covered by the franchise (and as reapplied to the 2410 era might make for an interesting STO episode/foundry mission or two.)
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My character Tsin'xing
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And yes, you're quite right that the difference could have gone unaddressed and unacknowledged. That Marcus used and manipulated Khan was a valid plot point even without the 'laying it on' of the cosmetic alterations detailed in the comic. However, the comic does exist, and given the amount of ludicrous marketing surrounding the Force Awakens (Darth Vader soap-on-a-rope, deodorants, oranges, yogurts etc) I can quite believe that JJ always intended for there to be a comic to 'tell the untold story', thus freeing up 'movie time' for the mishmash of scenes he (by his own admission) got his boys to write and then try to make into a coherent plot... At the very least, that article explains why Id's plot was so disjointed...
You misunderstand. I wasn't saying you should care. And in fact, I *do* like it, because it is such an excellent example of how right Shakespeare was about brevity. So kudos to you for proving the master right once again!
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Wincing Simon Pegg admits he didn’t like the new Star Trek trailer either
Well they should have included themselves then
The first Augment Marcus unfroze on the Botany Bay, who either fooled Marcus into thinking he was Khan, or persuaded Marcus that Khan was too dangerous to let live and turned off his pod.
It may not even have been the Botany Bay, several ships were noted to have been sent out in the ENT Augment episodes.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
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No, I understand you just fine. That's where the two of us have always differed. :P
(BTW, you should actually read/listen to Shakespeare before you use that quote from Hamlet.)
Yup.
It's a hopeful development and an interesting example where those responsible in making a movie are held more at arms length for its marketing. I'm sure this happens all the time but we generally don't have the reaction from a writer/actor.
Its also hard not to take it being Pegg as another good sign.
If it was the Botany Bay another possibility (that requires no schemes of deception) could have been that our Khan died coming out of stasis when Marcus discovered the ship. Then the next augment in line assumed the title and responsibility.
And before anyone makes any rushed misinterpretations, consider that this is not what I'm saying the movie intended, what is considered "canon" by authority sources, or what you should personally take as "the plot of ID." There is nothing of that sort in the words I have just typed.
It's just a fun possibility created by a small gap in the dialog. Maybe it could have made for a better movie, or maybe with some modifications it could make for a good featured episode in STO. Don't rush to contradict when being correct/incorrect isn't really the important part.
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The very fact that the augments are genetically engineered and could conceivably have any ethnic appearance at all completely destroys the argument that Khan Noonian Singh has to look like someone of Indian or even Mexican descent, even if you take the cosmetic surgery out of the equation. So they could have cast anyone at all into the part without taking ethnic appearance into account.
Able to project charm, arrogance, and menace and make it believable? Check. Maybe they could have found someone else who could have channelled Ricardo Montalban, but Cumberbatch wasn't a bad choice as an actor.
Any other differences between the two timelines can be fully explained by the fact that they're divergent timelines thanks to the Narada. It happened one way over here and another way over there. No need to indulge in pointless theorycrafting to explain the differences, and anybody's guess as to why is as good as anyone else's. I appreciate the fact that there is a clear demarcation between TOS and the JJ-verse. It's a clean way to continue the Star Trek legacy with new actors that respects all of the old stories and doesn't make it necessary to introduce inconsistencies into the prime universe. With Leonard Nimoy departed, there's no temptation left to use old Spock to bridge the gap.
The point, as far as I can tell, is more to do with one very specific omission in the dialog than the casting. That I didn't have a problem with either, Cumberbatch played his part well, he's a good actor. But I know some people (who I can't really speak for) were disappointed that one of the strongest character roles in ST, once played by a (US) minority actor, was given over to a Brit who played more closely to the traditional Hollywood villain archetype (a point which even Top Gear has poked fun at).
That isn't a technical problem with the movie but a point based in the relationship between society, culture, and entertainment which has been a prominent connection throughout the Star Trek franchise (though not often in this way).
Anyway, that summary of a point raised on social media is as far as I'll go with that particular tangent.
What it means here is that the "Is Khan really Khan?" hypothetical is not (in my mind at least) based on physical appearance. What it is based on is Artan's comment that (as far as we can recall) the words "Noonien Singh" never appeared in the movie, leaving only the presumed title as character identifier. To the franchise there's only one Khan (see. the lack of ambiguity in "The Wrath of Khan"), so that decision was a perfectly valid one for presenting ID. But it leaves open the purely logical (but not likely at all, it is distinctly less parsimonious) possibility that ID's Khan could have been someone else (ex. the next augment in the chain of command) who adopted the title and assumed stewardship over Khan's people.
That idea is significant only (in my view) that it raises interesting creative possibilities for future reinterpretations of the Eugenics War story line.
As a side not to this: you can also invoke changing population demographics.
India in the Eugenics War era could have a significant, as yet not established Caucasian minority from which ID's version of khan happened to derive (because of Quantum thingies working back from the Narada incident). The period between now and First Contact still has a lot of blanks to fill and worsening conditions in Europe/North America (up to the EW) might have created new trends in population flow.
(As, for example, may have occurred at a smaller scale to produce the "French" accent of the 24th century. :P)
That's definitely not a digestible point for an exposition scene, but it represents just one of the ways someone outside the film could explain it because indeed there are innumerable ways to explain why someone looks the way they do in a sci-fi universe with parallel dimensions and time travel.
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That's probably just like the Okuda reference books (the Encyclopedia and Chronology)... the Okudas worked for Paramount, on a number of the shows AND movies, and did painstaking work to compile everything... and those books aren't canon.
Both, for example, mentioned a half-joke from Roddenberry, stating that the V'Ger homeworld was the Borg homeworld... but, that is severely downplayed on places like Memory Alpha.
Quinto? How about Anton Yelchin? He looks *nothing* like Walter Koenig, but the same people deluding themselves that Khan might not really be Khan aren't saying the same nonsense about Chekov.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
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It should have been obvious, but I was not responding to your comment. There are other people in this thread, and other people have taken issue with Khan's appearance. Sorry you are so confused.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
* Blow up the Enterprise from the getgo (because Star Trek isn't about Starships or space silly!)
* Hip hop everywhere (Remember Siskos bumpin collection of 90's music? Oh wait...)
* Motorcycle jumps and FF style action (Because this is FF 8 or whatever number they're on now secretly)
* Dress Kirk up as a superhero (Because Shatner was one too don't you know, I mean look at the gut he had by tWoK)
* Maked it all seem to be about action (because Star Trek never had any depth or stories, and repeating the plots of movies that made sense with characters who knew eachother for decades already and were a family because a fairly new crew of people who can't help but get their ship totalled every mission, TRIBBLE up everything unless they have help from Prime Spock, and don't like each other but somehow go through all these hoops to save each other - yup makes sense)
* Starfleet somehow doesn't mind that they have an insubordinate crew who's clogging up the shipyards because they keep wrecking the flagship (Yup if I were an Admiral I'd totally keep those guys in command of the ship. Least they can move it across the galaxy faster then the Borg (who probably wouldn't even bother with this version of the Federation))
Yeah I'm not watching this one. Not even worth torrenting and I have a 4TB HDD and unlimited bandwidth.
Yeah, Abrams would have directed this, had Disney not backed up the Brinks money truck to his front door. He did initially decline the offer to direct The Force Awakens, because of his commitment to this film series. But, whatever...
Because DS9 never featured jazz or hits from the heyday of Sinatra and Co... oh, wait...
A three-second scene in the first trailer, a movie does not make...
WAT???
The rest of your comments really don't even warrant a response. We'll all be waiting when you change your mind about the movie.