I would say that quite a few of those DID rely on the power of plot excessively. How do you hack a computer you've never seen before? etc... And Time Bandits.... It's a cult classic because most people think it's dumb.
Lol, indeed. I mentioned the Martian before but it might be worth explaining that reference now. That entire setup is a narrative convenience. Everything that happens in that movie (ex. without spoiling too much: leaving the Botanist behind, having whole potatos on hand) does so not only to present a point but also to maintain a certain dramatic flow which, apart from providing a personal history, provides a dynamic emotional experience for audience. Narrative convenience is what happens, basically, when in a given story you need an event that satisfies the dramatic arc but, because the fictional universe was not so perfectly designed that this kind of shift or jump is inevitably going to happen, has to be, well, contrived (though that's perhaps too harsh a word to describe it.)
The movies I view as terrible might be simplified as following a train of thought narrative flow. It might be most evident from El Topo (but do not consider that IN ANY WAY as a recommendation to see that movie) but I think Into Darkness and Super 8 also follow that style of creating a fluid reality which is treated as substantive moment to moment but overall satisfies the film maker's desire for a given presentation of their impulses. However that, over the course of the movie, is not supported by the connected moments of fiction (or works in concert with other impulses to provide a stronger point over the movie). There's a huge disconnect and relatively little participation with the movie as visual story telling (as the tradition has developed from the oral stage) in favor of what you might consider haphazard symbology which exists for its own sake (not to participate with the story telling process).
Specific examples in into darkness follows:
The re-use of the interstellar transporter to get Khan to Qo'Nos after his personal attack on Starfleet (the entire process seems only to setup a moment of "mysterious stranger" face time while then enabling another, more distanced plot to happen.)
That attack killing all senior officers (which wouldn't have particularly mattered to this movie if it hadn't been for the quickly aborted plot about Kirk's demotion.)
Firing torpedoes from KDF border to hit Qo'Nos
Deciding not to use the torpedoes (after being so dead set to use them that Scotty resigned)
Scotty having to resign (seeing the crew wasn't really that committed to using them anyway.)
The former chief engineer of the enterprise signing on to join covert military program (which provides deus ex machina-ish save of the Enterprise 1 of 2.)
Reaching Qo'Nos at all (when before a remote strike was the best option).
Removing the stasis pods from the torpedoes before detonating on the Vengeance (the scene was setup after the fact)
Admiral Marcus's plan (as discussed, its not consistent with the setting or character).
The repeat "Enterprise is defenseless" scenes. The overall effect seems wayward and unrelated to other themes in the movie.
Khans randomly (seeming) shifting motivations and attitudes, culminating in his suddenly fixed reversal from dubious but pragmatic ally to brutal Villain.
Khan's magic blood (first being setup then used to solve an arbitrary problem borrowed from another movie.)
Khan being involved at all.
From each of these to the next scene there doesn't appear to be a direct connection building to a larger narrative point that's paid off in the climax (thus its not just about the support for each scene but their effect together on story and flow). The most we can say is that Kirk is less overly self confident. The Eugenics was isn't discussed. The presentation of augments in society is self-conflicting (which is directly involved with the reformation of Khan as villain, presumably just because of his role in the original series.) The war message and qualms about remote military strikes (which are hugely debatable these days for their collateral damage) is entirely undermined by gratuitous city destruction scenes which are almost immediately dropped in the following chase scene (which was emphasized to solve an arbitrary Kirk-radiation-dead plot threat which owes its existence to another separate movie. It's not independently justifiable). There's just a lot of wayward impulses directing most, if not all aspects of the presentation, which is why I don't think the movie works as a movie. It may work as something else (ex. cinematic impressionism), but not as a movie as its conventionally processed.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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This seems to matter too much to you, in an unhealthy way. So, the reason I posted was to try to put things into perspective. That this isn't a "right" or "wrong" issue. It's just personal opinion. If you don't like the movie, that's fine. If someone else does, that's also fine. You aren't right and they aren't wrong. Or, both of you are equally right and wrong. Either way, it shouldn't bother you as much as it apparently does, and you shouldn't have some compulsive need to try to overwhelm people with words until they just agree with you.
It's possible that I could still take that post as a generalized insult/jab (just letting you know, however explicitly intended) but I really won't because I'm trying to fully understand your point and I think I see your intentions. I will say that I'm not bothered by the prospect of being right or wrong (as stated I'm just going on the best support I can find, if that changes I'll gladly call my self now wrong) but blatantly misinterpreted for the sake of something else which doesn't seem to have much to do with the thread but broader problems in the realm of human discourse (such as the "everything is just an opinion" tangent, that's probably the nerve there but I'll let that twang away without further indulgence here or elsewhere on these forums. Not really the place, I can appreciate now.)
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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I like the reboot movies...but then I realized this was an alternative universe and wasn't supposed to be like TOS
The bone I'll throw in favor of Beyond is that it is taking steps (at least by appearances, for the moment) to create a more independent identity from the series. The first movie was obviously constrained in having to first establish this as a star trek movie but the second (other problems aside) also relied on the prime universe to do the heavy lifting when it probably didn't need to in order to get by.
Here we get a new faction and, besides that, a new plot for a Star Trek movie (well, discounting having blown up the enterprise for The Voyage Home but I think that may be where the similarities end.) This could set the alternate universe apart, give it a more unique identity, and place it (at the end of Beyond) such that stories that really couldn't be told through the prime universe can have a go.
I guess the take home is "well, that's a plus" but the quality of the writing is still a significant unknown.
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[*] The re-use of the interstellar transporter to get Khan to Qo'Nos after his personal attack on Starfleet (the entire process seems only to setup a moment of "mysterious stranger" face time while then enabling another, more distanced plot to happen.)
I personally wondered primarily about why they didn't follow him the same way he left.
[*] That attack killing all senior officers (which wouldn't have particularly mattered to this movie if it hadn't been for the quickly aborted plot about Kirk's demotion.)
I only saw this as odd because it didn't make sense for Khan to want to kill that group.
[*] Firing torpedoes from KDF border to hit Qo'Nos
I don't see how that was dumb at all. Torpedoes with warp engines was a major plot point.
[*] Deciding not to use the torpedoes (after being so dead set to use them that Scotty resigned)
I saw that as a matter of actions having consequences.
[*] Scotty having to resign (seeing the crew wasn't really that committed to using them anyway.)
Which came first?
[*] The former chief engineer of the enterprise signing on to join covert military program (which provides deus ex machina-ish save of the Enterprise 1 of 2.)
I saw that as Scotty being sneaky and devious. actually it made me wonder if him resigning in protest was a feint...
[*] Reaching Qo'Nos at all (when before a remote strike was the best option).
Given how hard it was to do that....
[*] Removing the stasis pods from the torpedoes before detonating on the Vengeance (the scene was setup after the fact)
SURPRISE PLOT TWIST!!!
[*] Admiral Marcus's plan (as discussed, its not consistent with the setting or character).
How so? What do we even know about him? Other than the fact his own daughter doesn't trust him?
[*] The repeat "Enterprise is defenseless" scenes. The overall effect seems wayward and unrelated to other themes in the movie.
Well.... it's Star Trek... the ship getting shot at or whatever is a recurring plot gimmick. I'd be very surprised if it DIDN'T happen.
[*] Khans randomly (seeming) shifting motivations and attitudes, culminating in his suddenly fixed reversal from dubious but pragmatic ally to brutal Villain.
Enh.. I saw that as Khan scheming and deciding to pretend to be an ally while manipulating Kirk into giving him what he wanted.
[*] Khan's magic blood (first being setup then used to solve an arbitrary problem borrowed from another movie.)
[*] Khan being involved at all.
Uh... that makes no sense at all... Marcus recruited Khan to design the Vengeance.
[*] The re-use of the interstellar transporter to get Khan to Qo'Nos after his personal attack on Starfleet (the entire process seems only to setup a moment of "mysterious stranger" face time while then enabling another, more distanced plot to happen.)
I personally wondered primarily about why they didn't follow him the same way he left.
Only one prototype built, destroyed in the crash, and if Scotty wanted to build another he'd have to start from scratch because I seem to recall S31 had taken all his notes on the topic.
I like the reboot movies...but then I realized this was an alternative universe and wasn't supposed to be like TOS
And similarly, when people are talking about "They blew up the Enterprise too many times," I do not count the prime-verse incidents against JJ or vice versa. They're two separate universes.
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VERY INTERESTING to see that he thinks that doesn't necessarily reflect the whole of the movie.
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I don't see how that was dumb at all. Torpedoes with warp engines was a major plot point.
They stated the range capabilities but did they ever say "they have warp drive?" In any case its strongly implied and above all necessary for it to work, but the torpedo arc never really gets anywhere and provides some weird complications later (ex. what was removed instead of the warheads (which had to be there later) to fit the stasis units. How would that have played out if the Ent had simply followed orders?)
Which came first?
The point was that its arbitrary. An intractable conflict is created that requires an extreme reaction but, as it turns out, it wasn't so intractable after all. It's inconsistent (without at least some indication that Kirk was mulling the problem en route. You can imagine that happening but I don't think that' a gap the movie takes any steps to fill besides eventually assuming the right plot twists to keep it going in the right way.)
I saw that as Scotty being sneaky and devious. actually it made me wonder if him resigning in protest was a feint...
That would have been a neat turn-around but it would have required conversations to happen before the mission which we don't have any particular reason to supposed could have. In that case being so successfully sneaky and devious wouldn't have been every so slightly questionable. Its probably one of the better angles of the movie, and by itself is easy to buy, but I still have to put Scotty's shtick with the contributing factors.
Well.... it's Star Trek... the ship getting shot at or whatever is a recurring plot gimmick. I'd be very surprised if it DIDN'T happen.
lol, yah. See. Nemesis. The odd thing is the repetition of the same scene. The Enterprise is defenseless/incapable throughout the latter half/third of the movie and is only rescued at the last minute by individual actions which were left under-developed in order to present the move as a twist. And there's a lot more range in ENT status throughout all the other movies. I think any one of those scenes would have worked, but all together is pushing in odd directions (particularly with respect to pacing and tone).
Enh.. I saw that as Khan scheming and deciding to pretend to be an ally while manipulating Kirk into giving him what he wanted.
True but its the scheming and considerate element that's dropped to fit Khan into the same brutal role that Marcus was occupying a moment before. You might consider that as "dropping the act" and letting the true Khan show through, but even still its hard to fully accept that transformation when it is pretty much a total one.
Uh... that makes no sense at all... Marcus recruited Khan to design the Vengeance.
Its how the movie used Khan's magic blood, not Marcus. Its invoked at the start as Khan's unconventional way of "recruiting" a suicide bomber and only brought up again to resurrect Kirk after the re-purposed death scene. If some other mechanism had been found that aspect of Khan could have been dropped entirely. Its a small plot device with surprising prominence for what it is (beginning and end with pretty much no middle).
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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VERY INTERESTING to see that he thinks that doesn't necessarily reflect the whole of the movie.
Indeed! Put that as another mark up for Beyond's chances.
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The preceding Star Trek movies (including Final Frontier. You may like it but it still functions as a movie.)
Incorrect. The Final Frontier has plot holes and logic gaps that take you out of the film, I say Nemesis also does even though I quite like the film. I haven't actually seen any technical flaws with ID beyond the usual 'wawamagicbloodwawaKhan'swhitewawamagictransporerswawa'. You know, problems beyond the specific film that exist elsewhere.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I haven't actually seen any technical flaws with ID beyond the usual 'wawamagicbloodwawaKhan'swhitewawamagictransporerswawa'. You know, problems beyond the specific film that exist elsewhere.
You mean like basing a central plot point on a citation to another, separate movie? :P
There's plot holes and narrative convenience which I've already said aren't unique to ID (just a lot more common) but Khan's reveal is further down the scale into something that really is a problem in presentation.
True but at least you know this time that it reaches its limit. :P
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I haven't actually seen any technical flaws with ID beyond the usual 'wawamagicbloodwawaKhan'swhitewawamagictransporerswawa'. You know, problems beyond the specific film that exist elsewhere.
You mean like basing a critical plot point on a citation to another, separate movie? There's plot holes and narrative convenience which I've already said aren't unique to ID (just a lot more common) but there are those parts of the movie which simply don't work (ex. Khan's reveal.)
What was wrong with that?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The preceding Star Trek movies (including Final Frontier. You may like it but it still functions as a movie.)
Incorrect. The Final Frontier has plot holes and logic gaps that take you out of the film, I say Nemesis also does even though I quite like the film. I haven't actually seen any technical flaws with ID beyond the usual 'wawamagicbloodwawaKhan'swhitewawamagictransporerswawa'. You know, problems beyond the specific film that exist elsewhere.
Alright. I got your technical flaws right here: Why are the federation the bad guys?
That right there is reason #1 for ID being a scum sucking pile of irredeemable garbage. Nothing flies in the face of Roddenberry's vision more than turning the beloved idealistic vision of a perfect interstellar society into a warmongering, hate spreading, racist, militaristic, bunch of TRIBBLE swinging conspiracy loving TRIBBLE.
"Oh, it's not realistic" you might say, but that's the point, we were supposed to have gone through a series of horrible world wars, and finally gotten over our stupid backstabbing, secretive TRIBBLE. Even discounting that, there have been other things that brought up the idea that the federation may not all be good and still willing do awful things to further its goals, it was called deep space nine. But what separates ID from DS9 is that in DS9 the federation was still trying to do what was right in spite of the horrible situation it found itself in. ID suddenly decides the feds need to create a war for fun and profit. Way to TRIBBLE all over the vision of one mans perfect future.
Even if you take out all that other TRIBBLE, (like eggs benedict cucumber batch being horribly miscast) Into darkness still goes against one of the founding principles of star trek:
@centersolace what part of 'Marcus' translates to 'the Federation'? You remeber Section 31 was also responsible for attempted genocide against the Founders right? Does that make the Federation the bad guys? Cumberbatch was fantastically vast as Harrison who happened to take the Name Kahn that Spock Prime an the audiences just assumed was the same Khan without any evidence other than a common name. A name that serves as a title as well as a name.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The preceding Star Trek movies (including Final Frontier. You may like it but it still functions as a movie.)
Incorrect. The Final Frontier has plot holes and logic gaps that take you out of the film, I say Nemesis also does even though I quite like the film. I haven't actually seen any technical flaws with ID beyond the usual 'wawamagicbloodwawaKhan'swhitewawamagictransporerswawa'. You know, problems beyond the specific film that exist elsewhere.
Alright. I got your technical flaws right here: Why are the federation the bad guys?
That right there is reason #1 for ID being a scum sucking pile of irredeemable garbage. Nothing flies in the face of Roddenberry's vision more than turning the beloved idealistic vision of a perfect interstellar society into a warmongering, hate spreading, racist, militaristic, bunch of TRIBBLE swinging conspiracy loving TRIBBLE.
"Oh, it's not realistic" you might say, but that's the point, we were supposed to have gone through a series of horrible world wars, and finally gotten over our stupid backstabbing, secretive TRIBBLE. Even discounting that, there have been other things that brought up the idea that the federation may not all be good and still willing do awful things to further its goals, it was called deep space nine. But what separates ID from DS9 is that in DS9 the federation was still trying to do what was right in spite of the horrible situation it found itself in. ID suddenly decides the feds need to create a war for fun and profit. Way to TRIBBLE all over the vision of one mans perfect future.
Even if you take out all that other TRIBBLE, (like eggs benedict cucumber batch being horribly miscast) Into darkness still goes against one of the founding principles of star trek:
The Federation is supposed to be the good guys.
While that is true of the Federation we know, I would say that because of being attacked earlier in their history than the one we see on all of the other shows, those ideals simply did not ever have as much time to develop and strengthen. Even in STO (which I consider a closer comparison to the STID mindset than even DS9 simply because of how long the Feds have been traumatized by war after war), they have at least the history until the mid-24th century to draw upon. The STID Federation is closer to a rougher era characterized by people like Archer--and when you see the way Archer acts in Season 4 of ENT, the writing is improving but one thing to notice about Archer is that he can be mean sometimes, and very, very politically incorrect compared to the uber-PC 24th century (even though sometimes he is right to do so, such as when he yelled at Shran and Gral to sit down and shut the hell up and start acting like HUMANS for once). In fact, there's a hint Archer is alive and that his admiralcy was not THAT long ago.
So at least for me, a Federation whose development was essentially arrested much earlier on than all of the traumas the STO universe has endured, is likely to show much deeper scars and losses of ideals.
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Its a plot hole the scale of an entire TOS episode. :P
If you want to get down to details the line "my name is Khan" is a reference. The explanation afterwards is non-specific to the way the character develops (as a traitorous villain archetype.) It only makes complete sense (ie. why suddenly the scheming guy has jumped to one-track villain) if you've seen Space Seed and/or TWoK because that's where you get the character motivation. It's a big problem with the movie.
Think of it this way, he's kind of the same guy afterwards as Harrison was before hand. There's not enough detail provided or connections made to make the big twist a significant change to the course of the movie. Harrison could have been a rogue section 31 agent and with some script tweaking Into Darkness could have largely been the same movie.
who happened to take the Name Kahn that Spock Prime an the audiences just assumed was the same Khan without any evidence other than a common name. A name that serves as a title as well as a name.
Actually in this case there's no question that it's also his name. This is supposedly the same Khan. I'd have been thrilled if that wasn't the case but sadly it was.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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@centersolace what part of 'Marcus' translates to 'the Federation'? You remeber Section 31 was also responsible for attempted genocide against the Founders right? Does that make the Federation the bad guys? Cumberbatch was fantastically vast as Harrison who happened to take the Name Kahn that Spock Prime an the audiences just assumed was the same Khan without any evidence other than a common name. A name that serves as a title as well as a name.
Perhaps if ID was a reboot of DS9 the themes found within wouldn't feel so incredibly out of place. But it's not. It's a reboot star trek. The original star trek. Roddenberry star trek. And that is why ID fails so spectacularly.
@duncanidaho11 I supose the line 'my name is Khan' is clearer than 'I am Khan' which is what I remembered it being a few minutes ago .
It still could be that he's 'claimed' the Name or something. Again, there's no evidence in the film itself that he is the same one from 'Space Seed'. All it would have taken was a plaque I the statis pod or a name on a screen in the background on the Vengance with the first name or something to confirm.
Only two people even use Khan Harrison himself who used the first name only and Spock Prime who jumps to a conclusion upon hearing of an Augment named Khan.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
@centersolace it's not a reboot of anything. And you may want to watch TOS again. Roddenberrys utopia existed for TNG not TOS. Or did you not notice episodes like ' The Enterprise Incident' where the space of a sovereign Empire was violated commiting an act of war against the RSE? The gunboat diplomacy against the Klingons in most episodes they're in? The Federation lead conspiracy of war in TUC? 'We come in peace, shoot to kill' has been a TOS meme for long before the AR films came around.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
^this... and the Vengeance wasn't going to be the only one of her class, just the first
Then why launch an attack on Qo'Nos if only the one was ready for action? If more than one were ready, then why just the one pursuing the enterprise? Range is irrelevant, apparently you can launch conventional warheads from a sector-block away and hope to accurately hit a target this millennium.
The exact same reasons you make starships when an 'emergency' transporter can whisk you off to a moon of Qo'nos.
Like you said, you can't really apply too much reason to either of the JJTrek movies
one odd thought... at least Spock can't phone new vulcan this time for help from... spock
I never bothered much with star trek before because it was all nerdy and had these stupid talky bits in it with big words. I mean, they still do all those stupid big words but at least this time they're shooting stuff while saying it. What I like most is that you can ignore all the bits where they're not doing stuff cause a well cool explosion or punch is just around the corner.
It's also got funny bits in it too, like the guy with the daft Scottish accent, he's well lol and has a comedy side kick, like R2 and the gold one from Star Wars. See it's better they make it more like that now, with stuff blowing up and running and that, where you can let your mind snooze a bit at the talking. I mean, who cares what message they are trying to get across, I don't need to be told what to think. I pretend to watch the news for that.
This looks great, it's got a cool soundtrack, a motorbike, lots of funny bits and that big ship thing gets attacked by space wasps. What's not to like?
@duncanidaho11 I supose the line 'my name is Khan' is clearer than 'I am Khan' which is what I remembered it being a few minutes ago .
It still could be that he's 'claimed' the Name or something. Again, there's no evidence in the film itself that he is the same one from 'Space Seed'. All it would have taken was a plaque I the statis pod or a name on a screen in the background on the Vengance with the first name or something to confirm.
Only two people even use Khan Harrison himself who used the first name only and Spock Prime who jumps to a conclusion upon hearing of an Augment named Khan.
That is true and I do like that interpretation. But...there doesn't seem to be any ambiguity in the discussion of the film that Khan (ID) is a different person to Khan (TWoK). There was a lively controversy that Cumberbatch was cast instead of a non-white actor who more closely resembled/represented Ricardo Montalban. That would have been a great opportunity to say "wait, guys don't jump to conclusions! This isn't the same Khan" but the response I don't think took that route.
I think you can consider it an assumption (on the part of the film makers) that just going with the title/name "Khan" was sufficient to identify this as augment as our Khan. But hey, we totally have the latitude here not to go with that idea.
This looks great, it's got a cool soundtrack, a motorbike, lots of funny bits and that big ship thing gets attacked by space wasps. What's not to like?
The choice of bike? Should have totally been a Vincent Black Shadow. :P
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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The preceding Star Trek movies (including Final Frontier. You may like it but it still functions as a movie.)
Incorrect. The Final Frontier has plot holes and logic gaps that take you out of the film, I say Nemesis also does even though I quite like the film. I haven't actually seen any technical flaws with ID beyond the usual 'wawamagicbloodwawaKhan'swhitewawamagictransporerswawa'. You know, problems beyond the specific film that exist elsewhere.
Alright. I got your technical flaws right here: Why are the federation the bad guys?
That right there is reason #1 for ID being a scum sucking pile of irredeemable garbage. Nothing flies in the face of Roddenberry's vision more than turning the beloved idealistic vision of a perfect interstellar society into a warmongering, hate spreading, racist, militaristic, bunch of TRIBBLE swinging conspiracy loving TRIBBLE.
"Oh, it's not realistic" you might say, but that's the point, we were supposed to have gone through a series of horrible world wars, and finally gotten over our stupid backstabbing, secretive TRIBBLE. Even discounting that, there have been other things that brought up the idea that the federation may not all be good and still willing do awful things to further its goals, it was called deep space nine. But what separates ID from DS9 is that in DS9 the federation was still trying to do what was right in spite of the horrible situation it found itself in. ID suddenly decides the feds need to create a war for fun and profit. Way to TRIBBLE all over the vision of one mans perfect future.
Even if you take out all that other TRIBBLE, (like eggs benedict cucumber batch being horribly miscast) Into darkness still goes against one of the founding principles of star trek:
The Federation is supposed to be the good guys.
You may want to go watch the shows again. TOS Federation was the good guys but they did questionable stuff all the time. Even in The Next Generation we'd see admirals with agendas that were contrary to the Federation. "The Drumhead" being the one off the top of my head...where the female admiral is conducting a witch hunt on the Enterprise. Or the episode where they deemed Data was property and wanted to take him apart to build more.
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^this... and the Vengeance wasn't going to be the only one of her class, just the first
Then why launch an attack on Qo'Nos if only the one was ready for action? If more than one were ready, then why just the one pursuing the enterprise? Range is irrelevant, apparently you can launch conventional warheads from a sector-block away and hope to accurately hit a target this millennium.
The exact same reasons you make starships when an 'emergency' transporter can whisk you off to a moon of Qo'nos.
Well... Prime!Spock explained that the calculations needed were MUCH more elaborate than a regular transporter. Also it was risky since you needed to make certain guesses about your destination. Khan apparently had the calcs preloaded into his shuttle. He didn't have the ability to simply push a button to calculate the beam out.
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Lol, indeed. I mentioned the Martian before but it might be worth explaining that reference now. That entire setup is a narrative convenience. Everything that happens in that movie (ex. without spoiling too much: leaving the Botanist behind, having whole potatos on hand) does so not only to present a point but also to maintain a certain dramatic flow which, apart from providing a personal history, provides a dynamic emotional experience for audience. Narrative convenience is what happens, basically, when in a given story you need an event that satisfies the dramatic arc but, because the fictional universe was not so perfectly designed that this kind of shift or jump is inevitably going to happen, has to be, well, contrived (though that's perhaps too harsh a word to describe it.)
The movies I view as terrible might be simplified as following a train of thought narrative flow. It might be most evident from El Topo (but do not consider that IN ANY WAY as a recommendation to see that movie) but I think Into Darkness and Super 8 also follow that style of creating a fluid reality which is treated as substantive moment to moment but overall satisfies the film maker's desire for a given presentation of their impulses. However that, over the course of the movie, is not supported by the connected moments of fiction (or works in concert with other impulses to provide a stronger point over the movie). There's a huge disconnect and relatively little participation with the movie as visual story telling (as the tradition has developed from the oral stage) in favor of what you might consider haphazard symbology which exists for its own sake (not to participate with the story telling process).
Specific examples in into darkness follows:
From each of these to the next scene there doesn't appear to be a direct connection building to a larger narrative point that's paid off in the climax (thus its not just about the support for each scene but their effect together on story and flow). The most we can say is that Kirk is less overly self confident. The Eugenics was isn't discussed. The presentation of augments in society is self-conflicting (which is directly involved with the reformation of Khan as villain, presumably just because of his role in the original series.) The war message and qualms about remote military strikes (which are hugely debatable these days for their collateral damage) is entirely undermined by gratuitous city destruction scenes which are almost immediately dropped in the following chase scene (which was emphasized to solve an arbitrary Kirk-radiation-dead plot threat which owes its existence to another separate movie. It's not independently justifiable). There's just a lot of wayward impulses directing most, if not all aspects of the presentation, which is why I don't think the movie works as a movie. It may work as something else (ex. cinematic impressionism), but not as a movie as its conventionally processed.
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It's possible that I could still take that post as a generalized insult/jab (just letting you know, however explicitly intended) but I really won't because I'm trying to fully understand your point and I think I see your intentions. I will say that I'm not bothered by the prospect of being right or wrong (as stated I'm just going on the best support I can find, if that changes I'll gladly call my self now wrong) but blatantly misinterpreted for the sake of something else which doesn't seem to have much to do with the thread but broader problems in the realm of human discourse (such as the "everything is just an opinion" tangent, that's probably the nerve there but I'll let that twang away without further indulgence here or elsewhere on these forums. Not really the place, I can appreciate now.)
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The bone I'll throw in favor of Beyond is that it is taking steps (at least by appearances, for the moment) to create a more independent identity from the series. The first movie was obviously constrained in having to first establish this as a star trek movie but the second (other problems aside) also relied on the prime universe to do the heavy lifting when it probably didn't need to in order to get by.
Here we get a new faction and, besides that, a new plot for a Star Trek movie (well, discounting having blown up the enterprise for The Voyage Home but I think that may be where the similarities end.) This could set the alternate universe apart, give it a more unique identity, and place it (at the end of Beyond) such that stories that really couldn't be told through the prime universe can have a go.
I guess the take home is "well, that's a plus" but the quality of the writing is still a significant unknown.
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And similarly, when people are talking about "They blew up the Enterprise too many times," I do not count the prime-verse incidents against JJ or vice versa. They're two separate universes.
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VERY INTERESTING to see that he thinks that doesn't necessarily reflect the whole of the movie.
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The point was that its arbitrary. An intractable conflict is created that requires an extreme reaction but, as it turns out, it wasn't so intractable after all. It's inconsistent (without at least some indication that Kirk was mulling the problem en route. You can imagine that happening but I don't think that' a gap the movie takes any steps to fill besides eventually assuming the right plot twists to keep it going in the right way.)
That would have been a neat turn-around but it would have required conversations to happen before the mission which we don't have any particular reason to supposed could have. In that case being so successfully sneaky and devious wouldn't have been every so slightly questionable. Its probably one of the better angles of the movie, and by itself is easy to buy, but I still have to put Scotty's shtick with the contributing factors.
lol, yah. See. Nemesis. The odd thing is the repetition of the same scene. The Enterprise is defenseless/incapable throughout the latter half/third of the movie and is only rescued at the last minute by individual actions which were left under-developed in order to present the move as a twist. And there's a lot more range in ENT status throughout all the other movies. I think any one of those scenes would have worked, but all together is pushing in odd directions (particularly with respect to pacing and tone).
True but its the scheming and considerate element that's dropped to fit Khan into the same brutal role that Marcus was occupying a moment before. You might consider that as "dropping the act" and letting the true Khan show through, but even still its hard to fully accept that transformation when it is pretty much a total one.
Its how the movie used Khan's magic blood, not Marcus. Its invoked at the start as Khan's unconventional way of "recruiting" a suicide bomber and only brought up again to resurrect Kirk after the re-purposed death scene. If some other mechanism had been found that aspect of Khan could have been dropped entirely. Its a small plot device with surprising prominence for what it is (beginning and end with pretty much no middle).
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To be fair to the movie, hollywood hasn't been capable of making a good trailer for almost 30 years.
your joking right? it looked more like a Fast & Furious in space trailer then it did a star trek one
Indeed! Put that as another mark up for Beyond's chances.
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Incorrect. The Final Frontier has plot holes and logic gaps that take you out of the film, I say Nemesis also does even though I quite like the film. I haven't actually seen any technical flaws with ID beyond the usual 'wawamagicbloodwawaKhan'swhitewawamagictransporerswawa'. You know, problems beyond the specific film that exist elsewhere.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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They really like destroying the JJ-prise.
There's plot holes and narrative convenience which I've already said aren't unique to ID (just a lot more common) but Khan's reveal is further down the scale into something that really is a problem in presentation.
True but at least you know this time that it reaches its limit. :P
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What was wrong with that?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Alright. I got your technical flaws right here: Why are the federation the bad guys?
That right there is reason #1 for ID being a scum sucking pile of irredeemable garbage. Nothing flies in the face of Roddenberry's vision more than turning the beloved idealistic vision of a perfect interstellar society into a warmongering, hate spreading, racist, militaristic, bunch of TRIBBLE swinging conspiracy loving TRIBBLE.
"Oh, it's not realistic" you might say, but that's the point, we were supposed to have gone through a series of horrible world wars, and finally gotten over our stupid backstabbing, secretive TRIBBLE. Even discounting that, there have been other things that brought up the idea that the federation may not all be good and still willing do awful things to further its goals, it was called deep space nine. But what separates ID from DS9 is that in DS9 the federation was still trying to do what was right in spite of the horrible situation it found itself in. ID suddenly decides the feds need to create a war for fun and profit. Way to TRIBBLE all over the vision of one mans perfect future.
Even if you take out all that other TRIBBLE, (like eggs benedict cucumber batch being horribly miscast) Into darkness still goes against one of the founding principles of star trek:
The Federation is supposed to be the good guys.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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While that is true of the Federation we know, I would say that because of being attacked earlier in their history than the one we see on all of the other shows, those ideals simply did not ever have as much time to develop and strengthen. Even in STO (which I consider a closer comparison to the STID mindset than even DS9 simply because of how long the Feds have been traumatized by war after war), they have at least the history until the mid-24th century to draw upon. The STID Federation is closer to a rougher era characterized by people like Archer--and when you see the way Archer acts in Season 4 of ENT, the writing is improving but one thing to notice about Archer is that he can be mean sometimes, and very, very politically incorrect compared to the uber-PC 24th century (even though sometimes he is right to do so, such as when he yelled at Shran and Gral to sit down and shut the hell up and start acting like HUMANS for once). In fact, there's a hint Archer is alive and that his admiralcy was not THAT long ago.
So at least for me, a Federation whose development was essentially arrested much earlier on than all of the traumas the STO universe has endured, is likely to show much deeper scars and losses of ideals.
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Its a plot hole the scale of an entire TOS episode. :P
If you want to get down to details the line "my name is Khan" is a reference. The explanation afterwards is non-specific to the way the character develops (as a traitorous villain archetype.) It only makes complete sense (ie. why suddenly the scheming guy has jumped to one-track villain) if you've seen Space Seed and/or TWoK because that's where you get the character motivation. It's a big problem with the movie.
Think of it this way, he's kind of the same guy afterwards as Harrison was before hand. There's not enough detail provided or connections made to make the big twist a significant change to the course of the movie. Harrison could have been a rogue section 31 agent and with some script tweaking Into Darkness could have largely been the same movie.
Actually in this case there's no question that it's also his name. This is supposedly the same Khan. I'd have been thrilled if that wasn't the case but sadly it was.
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Perhaps if ID was a reboot of DS9 the themes found within wouldn't feel so incredibly out of place. But it's not. It's a reboot star trek. The original star trek. Roddenberry star trek. And that is why ID fails so spectacularly.
It still could be that he's 'claimed' the Name or something. Again, there's no evidence in the film itself that he is the same one from 'Space Seed'. All it would have taken was a plaque I the statis pod or a name on a screen in the background on the Vengance with the first name or something to confirm.
Only two people even use Khan Harrison himself who used the first name only and Spock Prime who jumps to a conclusion upon hearing of an Augment named Khan.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The exact same reasons you make starships when an 'emergency' transporter can whisk you off to a moon of Qo'nos.
Like you said, you can't really apply too much reason to either of the JJTrek movies
one odd thought... at least Spock can't phone new vulcan this time for help from... spock
It's also got funny bits in it too, like the guy with the daft Scottish accent, he's well lol and has a comedy side kick, like R2 and the gold one from Star Wars. See it's better they make it more like that now, with stuff blowing up and running and that, where you can let your mind snooze a bit at the talking. I mean, who cares what message they are trying to get across, I don't need to be told what to think. I pretend to watch the news for that.
This looks great, it's got a cool soundtrack, a motorbike, lots of funny bits and that big ship thing gets attacked by space wasps. What's not to like?
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That is true and I do like that interpretation. But...there doesn't seem to be any ambiguity in the discussion of the film that Khan (ID) is a different person to Khan (TWoK). There was a lively controversy that Cumberbatch was cast instead of a non-white actor who more closely resembled/represented Ricardo Montalban. That would have been a great opportunity to say "wait, guys don't jump to conclusions! This isn't the same Khan" but the response I don't think took that route.
I think you can consider it an assumption (on the part of the film makers) that just going with the title/name "Khan" was sufficient to identify this as augment as our Khan. But hey, we totally have the latitude here not to go with that idea.
The choice of bike? Should have totally been a Vincent Black Shadow. :P
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He's damn near wincing in pain towards the end, there... very interesting, indeed.
You may want to go watch the shows again. TOS Federation was the good guys but they did questionable stuff all the time. Even in The Next Generation we'd see admirals with agendas that were contrary to the Federation. "The Drumhead" being the one off the top of my head...where the female admiral is conducting a witch hunt on the Enterprise. Or the episode where they deemed Data was property and wanted to take him apart to build more.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
My character Tsin'xing