So if you fire a 4x5 Torpedo Spread, it could be the proc triggers 4 times (because you shot 4 torpedoes on the main target) or 5 times (because you hit 5 targets) or 20 times (because you shot 20 torpedoes) or 1 time (because you activate 1 ability)
Add to this that some procs trigger with 100% and others with 33% (Grav Torp) and I don't know what's going on.
And also some procs are debuffs and it's unclear if they stack or not.
As I said before, I don't think they know what they're doing.
So if you fire a 4x5 Torpedo Spread, it could be the proc triggers 4 times (because you shot 4 torpedoes on the main target) or 5 times (because you hit 5 targets) or 20 times (because you shot 20 torpedoes) or 1 time (because you activate 1 ability)
Add to this that some procs trigger with 100% and others with 33% (Grav Torp) and I don't know what's going on.
And also some procs are debuffs and it's unclear if they stack or not.
I don't mind variety since it makes torps more interesting to me. The changes for QPT and Neutronic on spread though doesn't make sense. IMO TS should always proc at least once per target hit, not just on the main target. That's HY territory.
Yes exactly. It makes no sense for you as a ship to load up spread of torps to hit multiple targets but only arm the first projectile with your super-duper special warhead! Why bother with spread at all in that case when a HY will do more "special" damage. And why bother with the social torp at all when you could just load a basic photon or quantum and get the same result minus one proc but with a faster fire rate?
One thing I really worry about is what if this sort of thing gets forced onto other torps or weapons in the future to lower server loads or whatever? A grav torp that only procs on the first target, a particle emission torp with only a cloud on the first target....
Yes exactly. It makes no sense for you as a ship to load up spread of torps to hit multiple targets but only arm the first projectile with your super-duper special warhead!
Why bother with spread at all in that case when a HY will do more "special" damage.
And why bother with the social torp at all when you could just load a basic photon or quantum and get the same result minus one proc but with a faster fire rate?
One thing I really worry about is what if this sort of thing gets forced onto other torps or weapons in the future to lower server loads or whatever? A grav torp that only procs on the first target, a particle emission torp with only a cloud on the first target....
^^ Excellent observations!
Next time, they should consult torp experts like Oden to get it right. Now it's all the complete mess, and Bort essentially killed the entire concept of TS in the process. Lovely.
I am inclined to blame those who were clamouring for a nerf; but, truth be told, it was simply Cryptic all along: they appear sloppy when designing these abilities, and take lazy solutions to 'fix' them...
... like the 'Delete multiple' on the mail thing (which is horrendeously broken now). I know that's not about torps, but would it really kill them to actually *test* out their stuff once in a while, prior to releasing it?!
The problem is not just that these torpedoes were too OPed. They needed fixing because they're jamming up the servers that players get stalled out or thrown out of the game. No other torpedoes have been reported as being so damaging to other peoples' gameplay that they warrant this type of if you want to call it "heavy-handed nerfing to the ground". How many times must I repeat the same things before people even try to understand? You have had your fun, at the expense of others, being indifferent to their problems, or worse taking a perverse pleasure in doing so. It's now time to return the game to some relative functionality. This fix had to happen, DPS be damned!
The problem is not just that these torpedoes were too OPed. They needed fixing because they're jamming up the servers that players get stalled out or thrown out of the game. No other torpedoes have been reported as being so damaging to other peoples' gameplay that they warrant this type of if you want to call it "heavy-handed nerfing to the ground". How many times must I repeat the same things before people even try to understand? You have had your fun, at the expense of others, being indifferent to their problems, or worse taking a perverse pleasure in doing so. It's now time to return the game to some relative functionality. This fix had to happen, DPS be damned!
No one is arguing that it needed to be fixed to fix performance issues. The performance issue was caused by multi-procing of these torps on spread (which got fixed this patch) and the AOE shield drain component. Removing the AOE component may have been enough to fix the lag and balance out the damage. The change to a single AOE from your main target just made it like a HY and makes this and Neutronic far less useful outside of a GW'd cluster of targets.
The problem is not just that these torpedoes were too OPed. They needed fixing because they're jamming up the servers that players get stalled out or thrown out of the game. No other torpedoes have been reported as being so damaging to other peoples' gameplay that they warrant this type of if you want to call it "heavy-handed nerfing to the ground". How many times must I repeat the same things before people even try to understand? You have had your fun, at the expense of others, being indifferent to their problems, or worse taking a perverse pleasure in doing so. It's now time to return the game to some relative functionality. This fix had to happen, DPS be damned!
I could say the exact same thing about BFAW though, ever been in a map where 4 or more other players in 8-beam ships are all spamming BFAW....you have lag issues.
Just check out the planet killer fights in the Undine Battlezone, or the end fights in the the badlands. There is a hell of a lot more visual spam going on from other sources without having a witch hunt against this single weapon.
Many, many abilities or weapons in this game cause lag due to excessive graphical displays or overly complex means of calculating damage clogging the servers but there are ways to fix these issues without killing the weapon or ability or skill in question.
What has happened here is that a torpedo which was excellent in a torp spread and just needed some adjustments has now been made effectively a waste of time in that same situation. Now what they shoul have done is actually listen to the people using the dammed thing inthe first place, i.e. those posting in this very thread. Almost everyone here who said thanks for the torp freely admitted that any lag caused by it was needing a fix quickly, that sort of thing is only fair.
But many of us came up with excellent suggestions on how to reduce the lag and still keep the weapon's effectiveness. But all of this is ignored as always.
That is why people are rightly annoyed about the change.
Don't bother putting me in the BFAW fan club, I assure you I don't fit. I like torpedoes and cannons even and sometimes I commit the blasphemous act of having all 3 in a build. BFAW lag? Don't I know it! I read quite often, even posted a few times in endorsement that BFAW needs to be toned down, and it still does. If I could replace STO's favorite Klingon hating lizard in the top spot, toning down BFAW would be first on my list, beginning with removing the 5th shot in a volley advantage. Sadly no I am not in the top spot, and toning BFAW down is not on the list of geko's priorities.
kyrrok, the fix would have been to change it from hundreds of triggers to 20. That would have fixed the lag. If not change it from 20 to 5. And even after that change it 1. The fact that the 1 trigger is always multiplied by 6 also make TS3 and TS2 the same drain as TS1. Which is also lame.
Yes exactly. It makes no sense for you as a ship to load up spread of torps to hit multiple targets but only arm the first projectile with your super-duper special warhead!
Why bother with spread at all in that case when a HY will do more "special" damage.
And why bother with the social torp at all when you could just load a basic photon or quantum and get the same result minus one proc but with a faster fire rate?
One thing I really worry about is what if this sort of thing gets forced onto other torps or weapons in the future to lower server loads or whatever? A grav torp that only procs on the first target, a particle emission torp with only a cloud on the first target....
^^ Excellent observations!
Next time, they should consult torp experts like Oden to get it right. Now it's all the complete mess, and Bort essentially killed the entire concept of TS in the process. Lovely.
Not really. The Torpedo Spread still targets multiple enemies with torpedoes - some just don't get the special rider effect of the torpedo. But the AoE nature of TS is still in there, as the explosion radius triggering on the primary target is extended.
Torpedoes like the Gravimetric Torpedo or the Plasma Emission Torpedo aren't affected at all and Torp Spread as before.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Yes exactly. It makes no sense for you as a ship to load up spread of torps to hit multiple targets but only arm the first projectile with your super-duper special warhead!
Why bother with spread at all in that case when a HY will do more "special" damage.
And why bother with the social torp at all when you could just load a basic photon or quantum and get the same result minus one proc but with a faster fire rate?
One thing I really worry about is what if this sort of thing gets forced onto other torps or weapons in the future to lower server loads or whatever? A grav torp that only procs on the first target, a particle emission torp with only a cloud on the first target....
^^ Excellent observations!
Next time, they should consult torp experts like Oden to get it right. Now it's all the complete mess, and Bort essentially killed the entire concept of TS in the process. Lovely.
Not really. The Torpedo Spread still targets multiple enemies with torpedoes - some just don't get the special rider effect of the torpedo. But the AoE nature of TS is still in there, as the explosion radius triggering on the primary target is extended.
Torpedoes like the Gravimetric Torpedo or the Plasma Emission Torpedo aren't affected at all and Torp Spread as before.
Actually, in some way they are effected, as in plasma emission torpedoes don't create multiple plasma clouds per target, and I believe even the grav torp doesn't create multiple rifts per target.
In fact, the plasma emission torpedo, doesn't even show it is supposed to create a plasma cloud at all, when the TS skill is activated, nor does it even show it is supposed to create a plasma dot, but both still happen!
Which is why I and some others have stated, that the neutronic and QPT should have 1 aoe per target, to better fit like the others still apply!!!
I could say quite a lot on the problems of BFAWBFAWBFAWBFAWBFAW. Or maybe given the name of this thread and the fate of the QPT, I should start a new one called "Thank you for Beam: Fire at Will"
BO *DOES* do more damage against a single target...if you only have one beam. But since BO only acts upon one beam, it is only useful for ships that only have one beam, which are generally cannon-escorts with a single DBB on them.
Zactly.
And that 1 DBB is usually backed by one or more BO doffs (the kind that offer 35% shield pen for all other weps firing).
Personally, I think it would be much more fair if all your beams get the BO (but still against a single target, of course). As it stands, it's pretty hard to justify a buff that only affects 1 of your beams. Another way of looking at this is to say BFAW is really the odd one out, since both TS and BO only allow a single wep to be buffed with it (as in, you can't have 2 torps use a TS at once).
BO *DOES* do more damage against a single target...if you only have one beam. But since BO only acts upon one beam, it is only useful for ships that only have one beam, which are generally cannon-escorts with a single DBB on them.
Zactly.
And that 1 DBB is usually backed by one or more BO doffs (the kind that offer 35% shield pen for all other weps firing).
Personally, I think it would be much more fair if all your beams get the BO (but still against a single target, of course). As it stands, it's pretty hard to justify a buff that only affects 1 of your beams. Another way of looking at this is to say BFAW is really the odd one out, since both TS and BO only allow a single wep to be buffed with it (as in, you can't have 2 torps use a TS at once).
We seem to have two different type of weapon buffs - those that effect only a single weapon, and those that affect all of the supporte types.
Beam Overload, High Yield Torpedo and Torpedo Spread affect only one single weapon, and BFAW, CRF, CSV, DEM, SS, RRtW and KCLW affect multiple.
It seems there is a lack of balance in these implementations. Torpedo Spread has been buffed so much it somewhat manages to be competitive.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I sometimes think a better way to split the abilities would be either into rapid fire & AOE abilities or to add in an extra set that affects multiple weapons for each type of weapon. You can see that they originally the devs split things between single target and multi-target but some have become way OP and others have been neglected.
So for example:
Beam - rapid fire. Replace beam overload with an equivalent to CRF, it would give out the same damage overall and the same crit rate over the period it's active as BO does but affect all beams. Then it's good for single target attacks.
Torpedo - rapid fire. Allows all torps to fire faster as their basic attack over the duration of the buff.
BO *DOES* do more damage against a single target...if you only have one beam. But since BO only acts upon one beam, it is only useful for ships that only have one beam, which are generally cannon-escorts with a single DBB on them.
Pretty sure you can get up to 4 Overload beams. I used to have a dual overload beam setup before they added (Over) mods. Then there was a 4th way? Not used beams in ages so might be wrong about the 4th one but triple overloads is possible. Since you are using so many overloads what you do is get rid of all your crit chance stuff and swap it for crit serv.
Comments
As I said before, I don't think they know what they're doing.
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Why bother with spread at all in that case when a HY will do more "special" damage.
And why bother with the social torp at all when you could just load a basic photon or quantum and get the same result minus one proc but with a faster fire rate?
One thing I really worry about is what if this sort of thing gets forced onto other torps or weapons in the future to lower server loads or whatever? A grav torp that only procs on the first target, a particle emission torp with only a cloud on the first target....
^^ Excellent observations!
Next time, they should consult torp experts like Oden to get it right. Now it's all the complete mess, and Bort essentially killed the entire concept of TS in the process. Lovely.
I am inclined to blame those who were clamouring for a nerf; but, truth be told, it was simply Cryptic all along: they appear sloppy when designing these abilities, and take lazy solutions to 'fix' them...
... like the 'Delete multiple' on the mail thing (which is horrendeously broken now). I know that's not about torps, but would it really kill them to actually *test* out their stuff once in a while, prior to releasing it?!
The problem is not just that these torpedoes were too OPed. They needed fixing because they're jamming up the servers that players get stalled out or thrown out of the game. No other torpedoes have been reported as being so damaging to other peoples' gameplay that they warrant this type of if you want to call it "heavy-handed nerfing to the ground". How many times must I repeat the same things before people even try to understand? You have had your fun, at the expense of others, being indifferent to their problems, or worse taking a perverse pleasure in doing so. It's now time to return the game to some relative functionality. This fix had to happen, DPS be damned!
No one is arguing that it needed to be fixed to fix performance issues. The performance issue was caused by multi-procing of these torps on spread (which got fixed this patch) and the AOE shield drain component. Removing the AOE component may have been enough to fix the lag and balance out the damage. The change to a single AOE from your main target just made it like a HY and makes this and Neutronic far less useful outside of a GW'd cluster of targets.
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I could say the exact same thing about BFAW though, ever been in a map where 4 or more other players in 8-beam ships are all spamming BFAW....you have lag issues.
Just check out the planet killer fights in the Undine Battlezone, or the end fights in the the badlands. There is a hell of a lot more visual spam going on from other sources without having a witch hunt against this single weapon.
Many, many abilities or weapons in this game cause lag due to excessive graphical displays or overly complex means of calculating damage clogging the servers but there are ways to fix these issues without killing the weapon or ability or skill in question.
What has happened here is that a torpedo which was excellent in a torp spread and just needed some adjustments has now been made effectively a waste of time in that same situation. Now what they shoul have done is actually listen to the people using the dammed thing inthe first place, i.e. those posting in this very thread. Almost everyone here who said thanks for the torp freely admitted that any lag caused by it was needing a fix quickly, that sort of thing is only fair.
But many of us came up with excellent suggestions on how to reduce the lag and still keep the weapon's effectiveness. But all of this is ignored as always.
That is why people are rightly annoyed about the change.
That way people can enjoy mixed builds (which are more canonical) without having to slot more powers.
Rapid fire and fire at will, each working with cannons AND beams and that's all we need.
Torpedoes like the Gravimetric Torpedo or the Plasma Emission Torpedo aren't affected at all and Torp Spread as before.
Actually, in some way they are effected, as in plasma emission torpedoes don't create multiple plasma clouds per target, and I believe even the grav torp doesn't create multiple rifts per target.
In fact, the plasma emission torpedo, doesn't even show it is supposed to create a plasma cloud at all, when the TS skill is activated, nor does it even show it is supposed to create a plasma dot, but both still happen!
Which is why I and some others have stated, that the neutronic and QPT should have 1 aoe per target, to better fit like the others still apply!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
It's the best ability ever and the players love it....
So I can count on your support to sing hymns and praises in the effort to give BFAW the nerf that, er, um, the glory it deserves?
My character Tsin'xing
Zactly.
And that 1 DBB is usually backed by one or more BO doffs (the kind that offer 35% shield pen for all other weps firing).
Personally, I think it would be much more fair if all your beams get the BO (but still against a single target, of course). As it stands, it's pretty hard to justify a buff that only affects 1 of your beams. Another way of looking at this is to say BFAW is really the odd one out, since both TS and BO only allow a single wep to be buffed with it (as in, you can't have 2 torps use a TS at once).
We seem to have two different type of weapon buffs - those that effect only a single weapon, and those that affect all of the supporte types.
Beam Overload, High Yield Torpedo and Torpedo Spread affect only one single weapon, and BFAW, CRF, CSV, DEM, SS, RRtW and KCLW affect multiple.
It seems there is a lack of balance in these implementations. Torpedo Spread has been buffed so much it somewhat manages to be competitive.
You can see that they originally the devs split things between single target and multi-target but some have become way OP and others have been neglected.
So for example:
Beam - rapid fire.
Replace beam overload with an equivalent to CRF, it would give out the same damage overall and the same crit rate over the period it's active as BO does but affect all beams. Then it's good for single target attacks.
Torpedo - rapid fire.
Allows all torps to fire faster as their basic attack over the duration of the buff.
-Captain: Rapid firing torpedos!
-Crew: Yes sir!
*PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW*
-Crew: all torpedoes are fired sir!
-Captain: is target destroyed?
-Crew: No sir!
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
No that was when Secondary Torpedo Launcher was bugged in Tribble.
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The UI looks too old for that.