[
You're remembering the bad things the Klingons have done, but you're ignoring the positive contributions. The fact is that without the Klingons, we lose the Dominion War, period.
And the main reason there was a war was becuase the Klingons pushed the Cardassians into the Dominion, other wise the Dominion would have to deal with a very easy to close off choke point to invade.
Also the federation started winning becuase the ROMULANS sided with them.
Also the federation started winning becuase the ROMULANS sided with them.
And it was delightful to see the Romulans fooled into joining the war, wasn't it? The master manipulators were themselves manipulated! Ha!
Yes, D'Tan knew that the only way the Republic could survive was through the support of the Federation and the Klingon Empire. But I have no doubt that D'Tan's consistent push for alliance was, in part, motivated by his awareness of that part of history - when the three great powers stand together, there is little that cannot be accomplished. The Iconian War is just further proof.
However, just as others have said here, peace will be hardest on the Klingons. The Federation will use its' massive industrial base and technological prowess to rebuild, while the Republic can turn toward further consolidating its' position and integrating more of the shattered Romulan Star Empire (Sela be damned) but the Klingons? The Chancellor might use this time to redirect that ferocity toward the 'honor' of rebuilding the Empire, but even then - to a Klingon warrior, how else might the Empire be rebuilt other than through further conquest?
One observation...this Klingon Captain is a petaQ. He looks for a victory in a place where there clearly is no fight and then sends an Orion woman to clean up his dishonor. NOW he should be worried about being assassinated by one of his crew! The Orion woman will be the first in line to spread the disease of unrest among the officers. If things are not handled well up front, then they will be handled well later by someone who can handle them well.
In my opinion, a good Klingon captain would have immediately recognized the situation and started barking orders for his crew to assemble away teams to start the mining process...and to tell them to be aware that their Federation counterparts will be doing the same: to assist where they can without going out of their way to do so and to remain focused on obtaining ore. And he would have barked those orders with authority! If he wanted to prepare for battle, he could also have sent down security parties to protect the mining interests in case A REAL ENEMY should come along and decide to disrupt the operation. Just my opinion...
One observation...this Klingon Captain is a petaQ. He looks for a victory in a place where there clearly is no fight and then sends an Orion woman to clean up his dishonor. NOW he should be worried about being assassinated by one of his crew! The Orion woman will be the first in line to spread the disease of unrest among the officers. If things are not handled well up front, then they will be handled well later by someone who can handle them well.
In my opinion, a good Klingon captain would have immediately recognized the situation and started barking orders for his crew to assemble away teams to start the mining process...and to tell them to be aware that their Federation counterparts will be doing the same: to assist where they can without going out of their way to do so and to remain focused on obtaining ore. And he would have barked those orders with authority! If he wanted to prepare for battle, he could also have sent down security parties to protect the mining interests in case A REAL ENEMY should come along and decide to disrupt the operation. Just my opinion...
1: It's already clear who actually runs that ship.
2: I agree that a confrontation seems stupid. It's a planet not an asteroid.... why can't they just say the feds get the north and the KDF the south? Or something...
1: It's already clear who actually runs that ship.
2: I agree that a confrontation seems stupid. It's a planet not an asteroid.... why can't they just say the feds get the north and the KDF the south? Or something...
Exactly! Number one is hilarious, but true. It's as if she's the one with the brains who has to sort through his mess! Ha ha!
Very nice. I like how you show cased some of real politics with the rattling of sabers followed by quiet (secret) discusions how everyone can win andsave face.
B'vat diplomacy with disruptor in hand Although our KDF side does not have any b'vat content except for that azure nebula thing where he does that thing he does we have no b'vat to teach us how to grunt and say you will accept these terms.
The Klingon Defence Force and its branches are the only TRUE military in the known Alpha and Beta quadrants. Their military might is what kept the Tal Shiar at bay while Starfleet helped the Republic with construction and infustructure. Many of the new Alliance task forces were commanded by Klingons and the Klingons will still be a major contributor to future task forces like the Terran Task Force. The Klingons came prepared for that one.
And yet it was the fall of the Earth that was considered to be what would kill the alliance, which implies the federation is the most important part of it, Kagran even mention Qu'nos probably wouldn't last if Earth fell, and you'll notice that despite being stretched think the federation still held enough that an attack on sol by the Klingons was considered a suicide mission and the Iconians needed a massive fleet to attack it, where as the Klingons needed help when the Undine and Iconians attacked their homeworld.
The fact of the matter that is even supported by the blog is that the Klingon war machine is exhausted.
[
You're remembering the bad things the Klingons have done, but you're ignoring the positive contributions. The fact is that without the Klingons, we lose the Dominion War, period.
And the main reason there was a war was becuase the Klingons pushed the Cardassians into the Dominion, other wise the Dominion would have to deal with a very easy to close off choke point to invade.
Also the federation started winning becuase the ROMULANS sided with them.
But we would've been overwhelmed without the Klingons and crushed. Furthermore when the Breen entered it was ONLY the Klingons who could actually stand against them, both Federation and Romulan had to fall back.
As for the fact that they pushed the Cardassians into the Dominion's loving arms, that is still the excellent manipulations of the founders rather than the foolishness of the Klingons. That was Changeling Martok all day. I won't fault the Klingons for the Founder's plan working well.
As a matter of story in STO, the Klingon's issue with the Undine makes a certain sense under the guise of that, as the Klingons probably should be extra sensitive about shape shifters infiltrating governments. Feeling if it can happen to the MIGHTY KLINGON EMPIRE then any of these "weaker" species would be even more vulnerable.
By "replicating working organs," are you referring to the artificial type?
As I recall, the writers failed to anticipate what we would potentially learn to do with stem cells, hence the whole "Worf wants to off himself" episode. (And Picard's artificial heart, when we may be able to grow a new one before the 21st century is out.)
All of that was deprecated by the invention of transporter magic. All you have to do is have yourself transported and overlay a data pattern of a perfectly healthy, and physically young, you. Why bother with that messy aging stuff?
Also, photoshop that data pattern and make yourself beautiful. I did!
Well look at TOS' idea of computers
It's interesting because much of the time they were trying to avoid using transporter magic as a means of story resolution.
Funny you bring up Worf's broken back since that was pretty much a stem cell episode, cloning a brand new spinal cord.
That said Star Trek still has retroviral therapy. Genetically engineered viruses to heal rather than infect.
One observation...this Klingon Captain is a petaQ. He looks for a victory in a place where there clearly is no fight and then sends an Orion woman to clean up his dishonor. NOW he should be worried about being assassinated by one of his crew! The Orion woman will be the first in line to spread the disease of unrest among the officers. If things are not handled well up front, then they will be handled well later by someone who can handle them well.
In my opinion, a good Klingon captain would have immediately recognized the situation and started barking orders for his crew to assemble away teams to start the mining process...and to tell them to be aware that their Federation counterparts will be doing the same: to assist where they can without going out of their way to do so and to remain focused on obtaining ore. And he would have barked those orders with authority! If he wanted to prepare for battle, he could also have sent down security parties to protect the mining interests in case A REAL ENEMY should come along and decide to disrupt the operation. Just my opinion...
An interesting thought. My Klingon Captain wouldn't have even registered the need for a conflict it would've been, "Ah, Starfleet is here, excellent, open a channel. QAPLA Captain. I take it you are here about the Tritanium. We need to set up a joint mining operation as quickly as possible, the Empire needs this ore quickly to rebuild our fleets before the next threat arrives."
"Captain, what makes you think there's a next threat?"
"There's always a next threat. And when you least expect it. Starfleet's vaunted Corps of Engineers can handle construction, we will handle security, I assume the Republic will provide their expert Reman miners for manpower if they wish to participate."
You know, Klingon in Charge, but not actually being hostile to his straight up ally.
The idea that the Klingon Empire is going to colapse is laughable at best. For centuries the Klingon Empire has been one of if not the most powerful organization in the galactic south and for the last 30 years it has been growing and consolidating its power base with the other powers in the south-east like the Gorn, Letheans, Orions, Nausicans, Ferasans, Romulans and other conqured or allied speicies now within the Empires borders all in preperation for just such an incident. Since then they have fended off against several hyper-advanced alien races who attacked Qo'NoS. Each time the Klingons have come up standing. Their inclusion into the Alliance was probably the best decision for the Galaxy as a whole. The Klingon Defence Force and its branches are the only TRUE military in the known Alpha and Beta quadrants. Their military might is what kept the Tal Shiar at bay while Starfleet helped the Republic with construction and infustructure. Many of the new Alliance task forces were commanded by Klingons and the Klingons will still be a major contributor to future task forces like the Terran Task Force. The Klingons came prepared for that one.
Yes the various battles for Qo'NoS against hyper-advanced races has finally wounded the Empire. They are not out yet though. People think that the Empire will fall due to internal strife. This is wrong on two accounts. First the Empire has plenty of external threats to focus their might against still. Second their are sweeping social changes happening in the Empire that will eventually lead to a more Spartan lifestyle and induction into the Federation.
External threats include the Fekiri, the Hur'q, and T'Ket all of whome are still gunning for the Empire. While their is a brief reprieve from combat there will now be a chance to rebuild their fleets. The most immedient threat is House Torg. Torg is still at large and has been striking at the Klingon Empire for a while to no avail. He may see this as an opertune time to fight J'mpok but this still would be fruitless. Torg has lost his Iconian and Romulan backers, he has no allies in the Empire as he and his whole house were discomendated, and he faces too many Imperial soliders loyal to the Alliance and the Alliance itself.
This is where Starfleets work to restore peace in the Galaxy will finally pay off. At the start of 2409 Starfleet was stretched thin battling the Klingons, Borg, the Tal Shiar, the True Way, Breen, and Undine all the while helping to rebuild what has been lost. We have already seen the fruits of these endevors. The Cardassian Union was devestated following the Dominion War. Starfleet not only provided support in reconstruction efforts but it also gave the Cardassians security against domestic terrorist threats. Upon seeing the good that the Federation and its idealism can do the Cardassians adopted a much more diplomatic and democratic form of government free of the oppression of the Obsidian Order. Starfleet also helped the fledgling spacefarers, the Deferi, whos access to Preserver technology and artifacts may make them a very powerful and influential nation. Starfleet's help in defending them against the Borg and the Breen turned them into a much needed ally. The Romulans faced all kinds of problems in the aftermath of their homeworld's destruction. Realizing a need for a more transparent form of government free of Tal Shiar oppression D'tan formed the Republic that was inspired by the teachings of Spock, one of the Federations most prominent figures. Recieving help from Starfleet just strengthened their new ideas of peace and diplomacy. Starfleet's involvment in the 2400 crisis on DS9 helped to open diplomatic ties to the Dominion and the founding of the Delta Alliance is a direct result of Starfleet's knowledge of and help of the various races in not only that rarely visited area of the galaxy but also in fluidic space when Tuvok helped to cease hostilities with the Undine. Even the Iconians show signs of possibily joining the Alliance due to a suprising act of compassion. What we are seeing is Starfleets idealism leading toward the inclusion of many of these races into the Federation. The Cardassians will join most likely due to the overwhelmingly positive support of Starfleet and the Republic's eventual goal of Reunification with the Vulcans will bring the Romulans, Remans, and Suliban into the fold. What about the Empire? Well for the longest time the Klingons have not needed any support because, besides the Federation, they were the most stable government in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. It needed no help from Starfleet. That still has not stopped the social changes from taking root. K'mtar has brought back Gorkon's views on what honor means to a Klingon with the idea that the Empire cannot persist if it is fighting amongst itself and the High Council seems to have gotten the message. Internal strife in the Empire has been absent since Torg's discomendation. The Alliance has put to rest a lot of the misconceptions Klingons had about its former rivals and strengthened their bond to the rest of the galaxy. The Klingons have also contributed quite a bit not just through military prowess but also in intellgence. They were the first ones to bring to light the Undine manipulations of the galaxy after all and their tech has been a big help in combating the bad guys. This has made their worth in the eyes of their allies to be invaluable. Upon seeing the compassionate act that ended the Iconian War the Klingons are now more open to the ideas of peaceful exploration and diplomacy. The Federation, the quickest nation to bounce back from the war, will be sending aid to the Empire who has finally shown signs of fatigue. The Empire is still strong enough to not colapse but the social changes inspired by Starfleet and the changing ideas of what makes an honorable Klingon show what will eventually be a reformed Klingon Empire being a member race of the Federation. This inclusion may just be headed up by the Enterprise whose Andorian captain will no doubt help in bringing the Empire into the fold.
So no the Klingon Empire will not colapse and no Klingons are not stupid by any means. They must be doing something right to have taken on the strongest things the galaxy has to throw at them and still be stronger and even more honorable then they were before.
You have a balanced holistic view of the situation. Though I am not as bullish as you are on Klingon Political Stability especially since that High Council you mentioned was assassinated by M'Tara. Whether the lessons they learned were passed down remains to be seen. Furthermore Klingon Society has proven to be rather monolithic as far as their political ways are. I would never say they can't change, I'll just need more evidence that they're taking what they've learned to heart. Even Kagran didn't seem all that enthused that the Empire at large would see the value in the victory wrought by mercy and compassion. But he will try. So I'm not expecting a smooth transition and Klingons seeing the light. But we can hope.
The Klingons are not stupid, but they are blindingly prideful, and can't tolerate showing even the slightest weakness. If Martok was still alive then I'd be far more optimistic. If Worf was Chancellor I'd think we were on the right path.
The Federation was seeking peace talks or a cease-fire so that groundwork could be made toward a full peace summit.
J'mpok refused. "No longer will we die the death of a thousand cuts," J'mpok told the High Council. "Peace was the death of the Klingon Empire. Thankfully, it was a mistake that we caught in time."
"Conflict makes us Klingon. Combat makes us strong. I write my story with the my blade, and the ink is the blood of my enemies."
That guy, I do not trust. Now if he's learned his lesson then that's fine, but I'm skeptical.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
[
You're remembering the bad things the Klingons have done, but you're ignoring the positive contributions. The fact is that without the Klingons, we lose the Dominion War, period.
And the main reason there was a war was becuase the Klingons pushed the Cardassians into the Dominion, other wise the Dominion would have to deal with a very easy to close off choke point to invade.
Also the federation started winning becuase the ROMULANS sided with them.
But we would've been overwhelmed without the Klingons and crushed. Furthermore when the Breen entered it was ONLY the Klingons who could actually stand against them, both Federation and Romulan had to fall back.
Because the Klingons got lucky. The only reason the Klingon ships weren't affected by the Breen weapons was because one of their engineers jury-rigged a fix for a completely unrelated problem that by sheer will of plot rendered that ship immune. Were it not for that fluke the Klingons would have been just as much out of action as the other two.
As for the fact that they pushed the Cardassians into the Dominion's loving arms, that is still the excellent manipulations of the founders rather than the foolishness of the Klingons. That was Changeling Martok all day. I won't fault the Klingons for the Founder's plan working well.
Gowron still ultimately made the choice, just like the US Congress chose to authorize the invasion of Iraq based on evidence that had been cherry-picked by the Bush Administration to support something that goddamn cowboy had wanted to do since before he took office. (Yes, I went there.)
Besides, Gowron had plenty of ulterior motives, just like J'mpok. He was a politically weak chancellor trying to shore up his military credentials and political support so he wouldn't be overthrown, plus there's my pet theory that the Klingon nobles saw the overthrow of the military dictatorship and didn't want their own commonfolk getting ideas.
As with Her Royal Sociopathy and the poor misunderstood Iconians, THE KLINGONS MADE A CHOICE. THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.
One observation...this Klingon Captain is a petaQ. He looks for a victory in a place where there clearly is no fight and then sends an Orion woman to clean up his dishonor. NOW he should be worried about being assassinated by one of his crew! The Orion woman will be the first in line to spread the disease of unrest among the officers. If things are not handled well up front, then they will be handled well later by someone who can handle them well.
In my opinion, a good Klingon captain would have immediately recognized the situation and started barking orders for his crew to assemble away teams to start the mining process...and to tell them to be aware that their Federation counterparts will be doing the same: to assist where they can without going out of their way to do so and to remain focused on obtaining ore. And he would have barked those orders with authority! If he wanted to prepare for battle, he could also have sent down security parties to protect the mining interests in case A REAL ENEMY should come along and decide to disrupt the operation. Just my opinion...
An interesting thought. My Klingon Captain wouldn't have even registered the need for a conflict it would've been, "Ah, Starfleet is here, excellent, open a channel. QAPLA Captain. I take it you are here about the Tritanium. We need to set up a joint mining operation as quickly as possible, the Empire needs this ore quickly to rebuild our fleets before the next threat arrives."
"Captain, what makes you think there's a next threat?"
"There's always a next threat. And when you least expect it. Starfleet's vaunted Corps of Engineers can handle construction, we will handle security, I assume the Republic will provide their expert Reman miners for manpower if they wish to participate."
You know, Klingon in Charge, but not actually being hostile to his straight up ally.
I've been saying for a while now that the inherent flaw in the status quo between the Klingons and the Federation is exactly the opposite of your opinion. The Klingons and Feds are fine as long as there's somebody else they're both worried about. The Romulans played that role for most of the first half of the 24th century, then it was the Dominion, then in STO it was the Iconians.
But what happens when they run out of mutual enemies they can fight?
I agree completely with @gulberat: If Ka'ar genuinely didn't want to fight Madrid he should've come out and said it himself instead of hiding behind his XO, Orion or not. That would show he has both courage and personal integrity, a component of batlh severely lacking in the Klingon Empire for a very long time. Instead he showed himself to be a coward and a hypocrite.
ETA: Besides, it's not like he can exactly be challenged for command. It's a plot point in the KDF tutorial arc that only the first officer has the right to challenge the CO for command, and she agrees with him. If anybody else does it, it's not a legitimate challenge, it's just mutiny.
The idea that the Klingon Empire is going to colapse is laughable at best. For centuries the Klingon Empire has been one of if not the most powerful organization in the galactic south and for the last 30 years it has been growing and consolidating its power base with the other powers in the south-east like the Gorn, Letheans, Orions, Nausicans, Ferasans, Romulans and other conqured or allied speicies now within the Empires borders all in preperation for just such an incident. Since then they have fended off against several hyper-advanced alien races who attacked Qo'NoS. Each time the Klingons have come up standing. Their inclusion into the Alliance was probably the best decision for the Galaxy as a whole. The Klingon Defence Force and its branches are the only TRUE military in the known Alpha and Beta quadrants. Their military might is what kept the Tal Shiar at bay while Starfleet helped the Republic with construction and infustructure. Many of the new Alliance task forces were commanded by Klingons and the Klingons will still be a major contributor to future task forces like the Terran Task Force. The Klingons came prepared for that one.
Yes the various battles for Qo'NoS against hyper-advanced races has finally wounded the Empire. They are not out yet though. People think that the Empire will fall due to internal strife. This is wrong on two accounts. First the Empire has plenty of external threats to focus their might against still. Second their are sweeping social changes happening in the Empire that will eventually lead to a more Spartan lifestyle and induction into the Federation.
External threats include the Fekiri, the Hur'q, and T'Ket all of whome are still gunning for the Empire. While their is a brief reprieve from combat there will now be a chance to rebuild their fleets. The most immedient threat is House Torg. Torg is still at large and has been striking at the Klingon Empire for a while to no avail. He may see this as an opertune time to fight J'mpok but this still would be fruitless. Torg has lost his Iconian and Romulan backers, he has no allies in the Empire as he and his whole house were discomendated, and he faces too many Imperial soliders loyal to the Alliance and the Alliance itself.
This is where Starfleets work to restore peace in the Galaxy will finally pay off. At the start of 2409 Starfleet was stretched thin battling the Klingons, Borg, the Tal Shiar, the True Way, Breen, and Undine all the while helping to rebuild what has been lost. We have already seen the fruits of these endevors. The Cardassian Union was devestated following the Dominion War. Starfleet not only provided support in reconstruction efforts but it also gave the Cardassians security against domestic terrorist threats. Upon seeing the good that the Federation and its idealism can do the Cardassians adopted a much more diplomatic and democratic form of government free of the oppression of the Obsidian Order. Starfleet also helped the fledgling spacefarers, the Deferi, whos access to Preserver technology and artifacts may make them a very powerful and influential nation. Starfleet's help in defending them against the Borg and the Breen turned them into a much needed ally. The Romulans faced all kinds of problems in the aftermath of their homeworld's destruction. Realizing a need for a more transparent form of government free of Tal Shiar oppression D'tan formed the Republic that was inspired by the teachings of Spock, one of the Federations most prominent figures. Recieving help from Starfleet just strengthened their new ideas of peace and diplomacy. Starfleet's involvment in the 2400 crisis on DS9 helped to open diplomatic ties to the Dominion and the founding of the Delta Alliance is a direct result of Starfleet's knowledge of and help of the various races in not only that rarely visited area of the galaxy but also in fluidic space when Tuvok helped to cease hostilities with the Undine. Even the Iconians show signs of possibily joining the Alliance due to a suprising act of compassion. What we are seeing is Starfleets idealism leading toward the inclusion of many of these races into the Federation. The Cardassians will join most likely due to the overwhelmingly positive support of Starfleet and the Republic's eventual goal of Reunification with the Vulcans will bring the Romulans, Remans, and Suliban into the fold. What about the Empire? Well for the longest time the Klingons have not needed any support because, besides the Federation, they were the most stable government in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. It needed no help from Starfleet. That still has not stopped the social changes from taking root. K'mtar has brought back Gorkon's views on what honor means to a Klingon with the idea that the Empire cannot persist if it is fighting amongst itself and the High Council seems to have gotten the message. Internal strife in the Empire has been absent since Torg's discomendation. The Alliance has put to rest a lot of the misconceptions Klingons had about its former rivals and strengthened their bond to the rest of the galaxy. The Klingons have also contributed quite a bit not just through military prowess but also in intellgence. They were the first ones to bring to light the Undine manipulations of the galaxy after all and their tech has been a big help in combating the bad guys. This has made their worth in the eyes of their allies to be invaluable. Upon seeing the compassionate act that ended the Iconian War the Klingons are now more open to the ideas of peaceful exploration and diplomacy. The Federation, the quickest nation to bounce back from the war, will be sending aid to the Empire who has finally shown signs of fatigue. The Empire is still strong enough to not colapse but the social changes inspired by Starfleet and the changing ideas of what makes an honorable Klingon show what will eventually be a reformed Klingon Empire being a member race of the Federation. This inclusion may just be headed up by the Enterprise whose Andorian captain will no doubt help in bringing the Empire into the fold.
So no the Klingon Empire will not colapse and no Klingons are not stupid by any means. They must be doing something right to have taken on the strongest things the galaxy has to throw at them and still be stronger and even more honorable then they were before.
You have a balanced holistic view of the situation. Though I am not as bullish as you are on Klingon Political Stability especially since that High Council you mentioned was assassinated by M'Tara. Whether the lessons they learned were passed down remains to be seen. Furthermore Klingon Society has proven to be rather monolithic as far as their political ways are. I would never say they can't change, I'll just need more evidence that they're taking what they've learned to heart. Even Kagran didn't seem all that enthused that the Empire at large would see the value in the victory wrought by mercy and compassion. But he will try. So I'm not expecting a smooth transition and Klingons seeing the light. But we can hope.
The Klingons are not stupid, but they are blindingly prideful, and can't tolerate showing even the slightest weakness. If Martok was still alive then I'd be far more optimistic. If Worf was Chancellor I'd think we were on the right path.
The Federation was seeking peace talks or a cease-fire so that groundwork could be made toward a full peace summit.
J'mpok refused. "No longer will we die the death of a thousand cuts," J'mpok told the High Council. "Peace was the death of the Klingon Empire. Thankfully, it was a mistake that we caught in time."
"Conflict makes us Klingon. Combat makes us strong. I write my story with the my blade, and the ink is the blood of my enemies."
That guy, I do not trust. Now if he's learned his lesson then that's fine, but I'm skeptical.
Oh, yeah, J'mpok, right. The guy who:
Tried to get the Empire to go to war with the Federation because Nero's Narada blew up a bunch of Klingon ships that were commanded by Worf (conveniently neglecting the fact that several Starfleet ships fared no better).
Pushed for war with the Gorn well before the Undine got involved.
Allied the Klingon Empire with an organized crime syndicate up to its neck in the slave trade.
Didn't even bother to disguise his land-grab against the Federation with the Undine pretext until the war started getting bogged down.
Just cut his damn head off already, Worf.
Post edited by starswordc on
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You know, I had completely missed or forgotten the part about only the first officer having the right to challenge. (Tried the "new Klingon tutorial" on Tribble and quickly lost interest due to a combo of Tribble creating MASSIVE graphics overloads that don't happen on Holodeck, and not caring enough to put up with the ridiculously slow FPS I get on Tribble.)
But when you add that, yeah, it makes Ka'ar look even worse. What he really wants is his political accolades.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
You know, I had completely missed or forgotten the part about only the first officer having the right to challenge. (Tried the "new Klingon tutorial" on Tribble and quickly lost interest due to a combo of Tribble creating MASSIVE graphics overloads that don't happen on Holodeck, and not caring enough to put up with the ridiculously slow FPS I get on Tribble.)
But when you add that, yeah, it makes Ka'ar look even worse. What he really wants is his political accolades.
For reference, the context is that there's some question after you get back to Qo'noS of whether you, originally second officer on the BoP, could legitimately challenge Jurlek for committing treason. Technically you had been advanced to first officer after Jurlek backstabbed Doran when she tried to challenge on the same grounds, so you'd been XO for about five minutes when you offed him. But apparently it's in a bit of a legal gray area so they have you fight a couple sparring matches as a formality to confirm you as CO.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You know, I had completely missed or forgotten the part about only the first officer having the right to challenge. (Tried the "new Klingon tutorial" on Tribble and quickly lost interest due to a combo of Tribble creating MASSIVE graphics overloads that don't happen on Holodeck, and not caring enough to put up with the ridiculously slow FPS I get on Tribble.)
But when you add that, yeah, it makes Ka'ar look even worse. What he really wants is his political accolades.
For reference, the context is that there's some question after you get back to Qo'noS of whether you, originally second officer on the BoP, could legitimately challenge Jurlek for committing treason. Technically you had been advanced to first officer after Jurlek backstabbed Doran when she tried to challenge on the same grounds, so you'd been XO for about five minutes when you offed him. But apparently it's in a bit of a legal gray area so they have you fight a couple sparring matches as a formality to confirm you as CO.
Yep, I never got off the ship before the FPS problem became overwhelming.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
[
You're remembering the bad things the Klingons have done, but you're ignoring the positive contributions. The fact is that without the Klingons, we lose the Dominion War, period.
And the main reason there was a war was becuase the Klingons pushed the Cardassians into the Dominion, other wise the Dominion would have to deal with a very easy to close off choke point to invade.
Also the federation started winning becuase the ROMULANS sided with them.
But we would've been overwhelmed without the Klingons and crushed. Furthermore when the Breen entered it was ONLY the Klingons who could actually stand against them, both Federation and Romulan had to fall back.
Because the Klingons got lucky. The only reason the Klingon ships weren't affected by the Breen weapons was because one of their engineers jury-rigged a fix for a completely unrelated problem that by sheer will of plot rendered that ship immune. Were it not for that fluke the Klingons would have been just as much out of action as the other two.
I'm of the opinion that luck is a part of strength too. Furthermore it was still only Klingon ships that could make the modification, their unique technology allowed us to survive that phase of the war.
Don't resort to such a pathetic argument as plot, you've got far too many good points to drag yourself down with that.
As for the fact that they pushed the Cardassians into the Dominion's loving arms, that is still the excellent manipulations of the founders rather than the foolishness of the Klingons. That was Changeling Martok all day. I won't fault the Klingons for the Founder's plan working well.
Gowron still ultimately made the choice, just like the US Congress chose to authorize the invasion of Iraq based on evidence that had been cherry-picked by the Bush Administration to support something that goddamn cowboy had wanted to do since before he took office. (Yes, I went there.)
Besides, Gowron had plenty of ulterior motives, just like J'mpok. He was a politically weak chancellor trying to shore up his military credentials and political support so he wouldn't be overthrown, plus there's my pet theory that the Klingon nobles saw the overthrow of the military dictatorship and didn't want their own commonfolk getting ideas.
As with Her Royal Sociopathy and the poor misunderstood Iconians, THE KLINGONS MADE A CHOICE. THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.
If you worry about punishing everyone for their actions diplomacy becomes very difficult.
He didn't make his choice in a vacuum, the Founders clearly saw the weakness in the Klingon political class that they could make that play and it worked beautifully. The same Founders who almost turned Earth into police state, obliterated the Obsidian Order and devastated the Tal Shiar, and of course, conned the Cardassians into joining them.
And oh if only the Nobles were so concerned about the common Klingon.
One observation...this Klingon Captain is a petaQ. He looks for a victory in a place where there clearly is no fight and then sends an Orion woman to clean up his dishonor. NOW he should be worried about being assassinated by one of his crew! The Orion woman will be the first in line to spread the disease of unrest among the officers. If things are not handled well up front, then they will be handled well later by someone who can handle them well.
In my opinion, a good Klingon captain would have immediately recognized the situation and started barking orders for his crew to assemble away teams to start the mining process...and to tell them to be aware that their Federation counterparts will be doing the same: to assist where they can without going out of their way to do so and to remain focused on obtaining ore. And he would have barked those orders with authority! If he wanted to prepare for battle, he could also have sent down security parties to protect the mining interests in case A REAL ENEMY should come along and decide to disrupt the operation. Just my opinion...
An interesting thought. My Klingon Captain wouldn't have even registered the need for a conflict it would've been, "Ah, Starfleet is here, excellent, open a channel. QAPLA Captain. I take it you are here about the Tritanium. We need to set up a joint mining operation as quickly as possible, the Empire needs this ore quickly to rebuild our fleets before the next threat arrives."
"Captain, what makes you think there's a next threat?"
"There's always a next threat. And when you least expect it. Starfleet's vaunted Corps of Engineers can handle construction, we will handle security, I assume the Republic will provide their expert Reman miners for manpower if they wish to participate."
You know, Klingon in Charge, but not actually being hostile to his straight up ally.
I've been saying for a while now that the inherent flaw in the status quo between the Klingons and the Federation is exactly the opposite of your opinion. The Klingons and Feds are fine as long as there's somebody else they're both worried about. The Romulans played that role for most of the first half of the 24th century, then it was the Dominion, then in STO it was the Iconians.
But what happens when they run out of mutual enemies they can fight?
I agree completely with @gulberat: If Ka'ar genuinely didn't want to fight Madrid he should've come out and said it himself instead of hiding behind his XO, Orion or not. That would show he has both courage and personal integrity, a component of batlh severely lacking in the Klingon Empire for a very long time. Instead he showed himself to be a coward and a hypocrite.
ETA: Besides, it's not like he can exactly be challenged for command. It's a plot point in the KDF tutorial arc that only the first officer has the right to challenge the CO for command, and she agrees with him. If anybody else does it, it's not a legitimate challenge, it's just mutiny.
History doesn't actually agree with you however. In the mid 24th century the Klingon Federation peace was on the verge of crumbling and only the intervention of the Enterprise-C at Narendra restored it. That's right, it only took one generation for the good will of Khitomer and saving them from Praxis to evaporate. Willfully weak at History.
It's interesting how in the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline the Klingons weren't at war with the Romulans who had perpetrated the attack, but the Federation that failed to successfully intervene.
I think the larger issue is that it's obvious even to the Klingons that the Federation is by far the biggest threat, and if all these harmony loving utopian peaceniks get a wild hair up their TRIBBLE we're gonna get crushed.
That said, you're right about Ka'ar. I wasn't disagreeing with that at all. Instead of greeting the Federation like the blood brothers we are, he greeted us with the old posturing and grand standing TRIBBLE that makes Starfleet roll its eyes.
As for the Orion Commander, the fact that she is the gateway to challenging the Captain speaks volumes for just how badass she is. Quite impressive.
Another thing about Klingon military politics that we haven't touched on is the interplay between house and military. The Houses each have their own ships/fleets which they then pledge to the Chancellor and the KDF. So the Captain of this ship not only has to consider the general mood of the Klingon Fleet, but also the political alignment of his own house, whether or not he's actually a member of that house or he just serves in the house and has proven himself worthy of command of a ship. Where do his house's loyalties lie? Do they have all old ties to the Duras? Does his House head hate the Federation? It's a very rich dramatic field for Cryptic to plant seeds in and explore.
The idea that the Klingon Empire is going to colapse is laughable at best. For centuries the Klingon Empire has been one of if not the most powerful organization in the galactic south and for the last 30 years it has been growing and consolidating its power base with the other powers in the south-east like the Gorn, Letheans, Orions, Nausicans, Ferasans, Romulans and other conqured or allied speicies now within the Empires borders all in preperation for just such an incident. Since then they have fended off against several hyper-advanced alien races who attacked Qo'NoS. Each time the Klingons have come up standing. Their inclusion into the Alliance was probably the best decision for the Galaxy as a whole. The Klingon Defence Force and its branches are the only TRUE military in the known Alpha and Beta quadrants. Their military might is what kept the Tal Shiar at bay while Starfleet helped the Republic with construction and infustructure. Many of the new Alliance task forces were commanded by Klingons and the Klingons will still be a major contributor to future task forces like the Terran Task Force. The Klingons came prepared for that one.
Yes the various battles for Qo'NoS against hyper-advanced races has finally wounded the Empire. They are not out yet though. People think that the Empire will fall due to internal strife. This is wrong on two accounts. First the Empire has plenty of external threats to focus their might against still. Second their are sweeping social changes happening in the Empire that will eventually lead to a more Spartan lifestyle and induction into the Federation.
External threats include the Fekiri, the Hur'q, and T'Ket all of whome are still gunning for the Empire. While their is a brief reprieve from combat there will now be a chance to rebuild their fleets. The most immedient threat is House Torg. Torg is still at large and has been striking at the Klingon Empire for a while to no avail. He may see this as an opertune time to fight J'mpok but this still would be fruitless. Torg has lost his Iconian and Romulan backers, he has no allies in the Empire as he and his whole house were discomendated, and he faces too many Imperial soliders loyal to the Alliance and the Alliance itself.
This is where Starfleets work to restore peace in the Galaxy will finally pay off. At the start of 2409 Starfleet was stretched thin battling the Klingons, Borg, the Tal Shiar, the True Way, Breen, and Undine all the while helping to rebuild what has been lost. We have already seen the fruits of these endevors. The Cardassian Union was devestated following the Dominion War. Starfleet not only provided support in reconstruction efforts but it also gave the Cardassians security against domestic terrorist threats. Upon seeing the good that the Federation and its idealism can do the Cardassians adopted a much more diplomatic and democratic form of government free of the oppression of the Obsidian Order. Starfleet also helped the fledgling spacefarers, the Deferi, whos access to Preserver technology and artifacts may make them a very powerful and influential nation. Starfleet's help in defending them against the Borg and the Breen turned them into a much needed ally. The Romulans faced all kinds of problems in the aftermath of their homeworld's destruction. Realizing a need for a more transparent form of government free of Tal Shiar oppression D'tan formed the Republic that was inspired by the teachings of Spock, one of the Federations most prominent figures. Recieving help from Starfleet just strengthened their new ideas of peace and diplomacy. Starfleet's involvment in the 2400 crisis on DS9 helped to open diplomatic ties to the Dominion and the founding of the Delta Alliance is a direct result of Starfleet's knowledge of and help of the various races in not only that rarely visited area of the galaxy but also in fluidic space when Tuvok helped to cease hostilities with the Undine. Even the Iconians show signs of possibily joining the Alliance due to a suprising act of compassion. What we are seeing is Starfleets idealism leading toward the inclusion of many of these races into the Federation. The Cardassians will join most likely due to the overwhelmingly positive support of Starfleet and the Republic's eventual goal of Reunification with the Vulcans will bring the Romulans, Remans, and Suliban into the fold. What about the Empire? Well for the longest time the Klingons have not needed any support because, besides the Federation, they were the most stable government in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. It needed no help from Starfleet. That still has not stopped the social changes from taking root. K'mtar has brought back Gorkon's views on what honor means to a Klingon with the idea that the Empire cannot persist if it is fighting amongst itself and the High Council seems to have gotten the message. Internal strife in the Empire has been absent since Torg's discomendation. The Alliance has put to rest a lot of the misconceptions Klingons had about its former rivals and strengthened their bond to the rest of the galaxy. The Klingons have also contributed quite a bit not just through military prowess but also in intellgence. They were the first ones to bring to light the Undine manipulations of the galaxy after all and their tech has been a big help in combating the bad guys. This has made their worth in the eyes of their allies to be invaluable. Upon seeing the compassionate act that ended the Iconian War the Klingons are now more open to the ideas of peaceful exploration and diplomacy. The Federation, the quickest nation to bounce back from the war, will be sending aid to the Empire who has finally shown signs of fatigue. The Empire is still strong enough to not colapse but the social changes inspired by Starfleet and the changing ideas of what makes an honorable Klingon show what will eventually be a reformed Klingon Empire being a member race of the Federation. This inclusion may just be headed up by the Enterprise whose Andorian captain will no doubt help in bringing the Empire into the fold.
So no the Klingon Empire will not colapse and no Klingons are not stupid by any means. They must be doing something right to have taken on the strongest things the galaxy has to throw at them and still be stronger and even more honorable then they were before.
You have a balanced holistic view of the situation. Though I am not as bullish as you are on Klingon Political Stability especially since that High Council you mentioned was assassinated by M'Tara. Whether the lessons they learned were passed down remains to be seen. Furthermore Klingon Society has proven to be rather monolithic as far as their political ways are. I would never say they can't change, I'll just need more evidence that they're taking what they've learned to heart. Even Kagran didn't seem all that enthused that the Empire at large would see the value in the victory wrought by mercy and compassion. But he will try. So I'm not expecting a smooth transition and Klingons seeing the light. But we can hope.
The Klingons are not stupid, but they are blindingly prideful, and can't tolerate showing even the slightest weakness. If Martok was still alive then I'd be far more optimistic. If Worf was Chancellor I'd think we were on the right path.
The Federation was seeking peace talks or a cease-fire so that groundwork could be made toward a full peace summit.
J'mpok refused. "No longer will we die the death of a thousand cuts," J'mpok told the High Council. "Peace was the death of the Klingon Empire. Thankfully, it was a mistake that we caught in time."
"Conflict makes us Klingon. Combat makes us strong. I write my story with the my blade, and the ink is the blood of my enemies."
That guy, I do not trust. Now if he's learned his lesson then that's fine, but I'm skeptical.
Oh, yeah, J'mpok, right. The guy who:
Tried to get the Empire to go to war with the Federation because Nero's Narada blew up a bunch of Klingon ships that were commanded by Worf (conveniently neglecting the fact that several Starfleet ships fared no better).
Pushed for war with the Gorn well before the Undine got involved.
Allied the Klingon Empire with an organized crime syndicate up to its neck in the slave trade.
Didn't even bother to disguise his land-grab against the Federation with the Undine pretext until the war started getting bogged down.
Just cut his damn head off already, Worf.
Frankly let me take his head, I'LL put the damn cloak on Worf. That bum has been skipping out on his responsibility to lead the Empire for forty damn years.
The war with the Gorn though was generated by the Undine threat. J'mpok did better than expected by letting them remain semiautonomous. So that was 2384, but the reason the Klingons were in conflict with the Gorn in the first place was this.
But the upheaval in Romulan space was not the only potential war that loomed on the horizon.
On Stardate 61829.83, the I.K.S. Quv was attacked by a Gorn ship. Two hundred and seven Klingons died in the battle.
Representatives of King Xrathis of the Gorn claimed that the commander of their warship was acting without orders, but refused to surrender the surviving crew of the Quv to the Klingon Empire. In response, Chancellor Martok expelled Gorn diplomats from Klingon space and ordered ships to the Empire's border with the Gorn Hegemony.
He didn't make the final push into Gorn space until this.
Captain Ja'rod met in a closed session with J'mpok and the High Council for more than seven hours. Reports indicated that Ja'rod revealed the details of his investigation into the Undine presence in the Gorn Hegemony to the Council, and that the infiltration went much deeper than previously believed.
A day later, J'mpok, with the full backing of the High Council, ordered an invasion of the Gorn Hegemony. "No more waiting. No more talking. We are Klingon, and we will protect the Alpha Quadrant from these qa'meH quv - these replacers of honor with dishonor. We attack!"
A combined Klingon and Orion fleet stormed across the border into the Gorn Hegemony. The ships clashed with Gorn and Nausicaan forces in multiple systems, and the simmering conflict flared into open warfare.
That said, of course the first attack was the Undine baiting the Klingons and the Klingons fell for it hook line and sinker. But from his perspective he was first acting in self defense and second protecting the quadrant.
Of course it was greed leading to the stupidity of attacking the Federation. He was feeling himself. J'mpok is that conquest and glory kind of Klingon that's gonna get the empire destroyed.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
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You're remembering the bad things the Klingons have done, but you're ignoring the positive contributions. The fact is that without the Klingons, we lose the Dominion War, period.
And the main reason there was a war was becuase the Klingons pushed the Cardassians into the Dominion, other wise the Dominion would have to deal with a very easy to close off choke point to invade.
Also the federation started winning becuase the ROMULANS sided with them.
But we would've been overwhelmed without the Klingons and crushed. Furthermore when the Breen entered it was ONLY the Klingons who could actually stand against them, both Federation and Romulan had to fall back.
Because the Klingons got lucky. The only reason the Klingon ships weren't affected by the Breen weapons was because one of their engineers jury-rigged a fix for a completely unrelated problem that by sheer will of plot rendered that ship immune. Were it not for that fluke the Klingons would have been just as much out of action as the other two.
I'm of the opinion that luck is a part of strength too. Furthermore it was still only Klingon ships that could make the modification, their unique technology allowed us to survive that phase of the war.
OK, I'll give you that one. There's a (possibly apocryphal) story about Napoleon Bonaparte that when a name was recommended to him for promotion to general, he always asked the same question: "Is he lucky?"
Don't resort to such a pathetic argument as plot, you've got far too many good points to drag yourself down with that.
Just for the record, that comment wasn't actually part of my argument, it was a joke. Just the sheer astronomical odds that such an event could take place pretty much begs for a "will of the Force" type remark.
If you worry about punishing everyone for their actions diplomacy becomes very difficult.
He didn't make his choice in a vacuum, the Founders clearly saw the weakness in the Klingon political class that they could make that play and it worked beautifully. The same Founders who almost turned Earth into police state, obliterated the Obsidian Order and devastated the Tal Shiar, and of course, conned the Cardassians into joining them.
I'm not going to deny that the Founders are very good at what they do; they've had a minimum of 2,000 years to practice (we get conflicting numbers for the age of the Dominion in different episodes). But the onus is still on Gowron for blindly trusting one particular advisor and not fully investigating the situation on the ground before choosing his course of action. Which in all fairness is not a failing unique to Klingon leaders by any stretch, but Klingon leaders are who we're talking about here.
Changeling!Martok didn't make the decision to go to war with the Cardassians. Gowron did. Just like the Undine didn't make the decision for J'mpok to pick fights with the Gorn and Federation; per the Path to 2409, he was champing at the bit well before anybody knew the Undine were involved.
And oh if only the Nobles were so concerned about the common Klingon.
They should be. No matter whether they acknowledge it, governments have a need of their subjects no less than subjects have a need for their government. A government can only stand as long as the folks on the ground are either too happy or too scared to rebel. This is particularly true of a military dictatorship like the Cardassian Empire or the Klingon Empire: their existence is staked entirely on the perceived strength of the regime.
There was an article in The Atlantic a few months back analyzing Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine. One conclusion drawn in the print version of the article (I wish I could find it on the Internet) is that Putin doesn't want dissatisfied Russians getting the idea they can rise up and get rid of him the way the Orange Revolution threw out an unpopular Ukrainian government across the border, so he's f*cking up Ukraine and using his propaganda machine to reject reality and substitute his own.
Let's not forget here that in TOS the Klingons were supposed to represent Russia.
One observation...this Klingon Captain is a petaQ. He looks for a victory in a place where there clearly is no fight and then sends an Orion woman to clean up his dishonor. NOW he should be worried about being assassinated by one of his crew! The Orion woman will be the first in line to spread the disease of unrest among the officers. If things are not handled well up front, then they will be handled well later by someone who can handle them well.
In my opinion, a good Klingon captain would have immediately recognized the situation and started barking orders for his crew to assemble away teams to start the mining process...and to tell them to be aware that their Federation counterparts will be doing the same: to assist where they can without going out of their way to do so and to remain focused on obtaining ore. And he would have barked those orders with authority! If he wanted to prepare for battle, he could also have sent down security parties to protect the mining interests in case A REAL ENEMY should come along and decide to disrupt the operation. Just my opinion...
An interesting thought. My Klingon Captain wouldn't have even registered the need for a conflict it would've been, "Ah, Starfleet is here, excellent, open a channel. QAPLA Captain. I take it you are here about the Tritanium. We need to set up a joint mining operation as quickly as possible, the Empire needs this ore quickly to rebuild our fleets before the next threat arrives."
"Captain, what makes you think there's a next threat?"
"There's always a next threat. And when you least expect it. Starfleet's vaunted Corps of Engineers can handle construction, we will handle security, I assume the Republic will provide their expert Reman miners for manpower if they wish to participate."
You know, Klingon in Charge, but not actually being hostile to his straight up ally.
I've been saying for a while now that the inherent flaw in the status quo between the Klingons and the Federation is exactly the opposite of your opinion. The Klingons and Feds are fine as long as there's somebody else they're both worried about. The Romulans played that role for most of the first half of the 24th century, then it was the Dominion, then in STO it was the Iconians.
But what happens when they run out of mutual enemies they can fight?
I agree completely with @gulberat: If Ka'ar genuinely didn't want to fight Madrid he should've come out and said it himself instead of hiding behind his XO, Orion or not. That would show he has both courage and personal integrity, a component of batlh severely lacking in the Klingon Empire for a very long time. Instead he showed himself to be a coward and a hypocrite.
ETA: Besides, it's not like he can exactly be challenged for command. It's a plot point in the KDF tutorial arc that only the first officer has the right to challenge the CO for command, and she agrees with him. If anybody else does it, it's not a legitimate challenge, it's just mutiny.
History doesn't actually agree with you however. In the mid 24th century the Klingon Federation peace was on the verge of crumbling and only the intervention of the Enterprise-C at Narendra restored it. That's right, it only took one generation for the good will of Khitomer and saving them from Praxis to evaporate. Willfully weak at History.
It's interesting how in the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline the Klingons weren't at war with the Romulans who had perpetrated the attack, but the Federation that failed to successfully intervene.
That's actually what I was referring to by the Khitomer Accords alliance using the Romulans as their bogeymen. It's an argument I've made before, I just screwed up the date this time (blame sleep deprivation). But you see my point that unless there's an external enemy both sides are worried about, the Klingons just start picking fights with the Federation instead so that they can keep from picking fights with themselves. That is not somebody I want as an ally even before you factor in their record on sentient rights, just because eventually you're going to run out of enemies to point them at.
That said, you're right about Ka'ar. I wasn't disagreeing with that at all. Instead of greeting the Federation like the blood brothers we are, he greeted us with the old posturing and grand standing TRIBBLE that makes Starfleet roll its eyes.
Too, he's hypocritical in another way that I didn't think of until this afternoon. He's claiming that his current claim invalidates the Federation's prior claim. Recalling recent history, J'mpok's casus belli against the Federation was to invoke old territorial claims to invalidate the Federation possession of several planets in the Hromi Cluster.
So which is it? Does current possession count or not? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
It's things like this that keep supporting the conclusion that "honor" is a completely meaningless word for most Klingons. It's nothing more than an excuse to do whatever they feel like doing: "I'm honorable, therefore anything I do is honorable, and I'm honorable for doing it."
(I'm going to skip responding to the rest of the post because we're basically in agreement overall.)
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Kind of gets to why I prefer the pragmatism of the Cardassians. They don't pretend to be "honorable," and they will fully admit to you that they will make their decisions situation-by-situation--that there will be occasions when even the good ones will decide that lying/deceiving, withholding information, "fighting dirty," or going back on a promise is the proper course of action. A Cardassian gul in the position of this Klingon captain would likely have no problem telling his crew, "I am fully aware of what I said before, but the circumstances on the ground have changed and our interests are best served by negotiation." With a Cardassian you know what you are getting into, you know to trust but verify just as they will be doing with you, and in a strange way, everything is on the level instead of their presenting you with a false impression that they are other than what they are.
I mean, I wrote a good-guy Cardassian who shanked a True Way terrorist in the back and without warning, that he'd caught, quite literally, in the middle of answering the call of nature. I'm sure a Klingon would not have approved of slaying someone under those particular circumstances, called it dishonorable and the whole works, but the difference was that my Legate there had his priorities straight (dead True Way, dagnabbit!), and he didn't go and torture the guy or killing someone who wasn't guilty. He was vulnerable and my Legate was not going to pass up the opportunity to off him quickly before the terrorist could commit his atrocities anywhere else. And as Garak said, stabbing him in the back *was* the safest way. Morally my Legate was the opposite of Garak (a belief in freedom and treating people right), yet he would have been similarly dismissive of an idea that he was wrong to do what he did to that terrorist. (Now, I DO acknowledge some Cardassians, such as the True Way, find that sort of torture and/or collateral damage acceptable and I do not respect those individuals at all. I only tell that story to show what a good Cardassian could look like, and that said good occurs without any code of honor.)
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The overall problem is that people forget that Klingons are an alien culture and try to apply human standards of "honor" to their actions instead of Klingon standards.
Think about it; to a Klingon, it's perfectly honorable to use a cloaking device to sneak into enemy territory for an attack as long as they decloak before actually launching the attack so that their enemy can see their face.
To most human cultures, the idea of 'the sins of the fathers shall be visited unto the sons' has become something to be considered barbaric - in Klingon culture, re; Mogh's discommendation and Worf refusing to recognise Alexander as his son at first because then Alexander would be forced to share the "dishonor" of the House of Mogh, it's not just considered acceptable, but proper for fathers and sons to share in the "dishonor" of the other (re; Martok/changling!Martok was dishonored by Worf taking Drex's d'k tahg from him in DS9 "Way of the Warrior")
'Civilized' societies on Earth outlawed the 'Code Duello' a century or more ago, Klingons duel over any real or imagined insult, dishonor or simply to prove whom is stronger (re; TNG "The Chase", while not what we'd consider a duel, a Klingon did challenge Data to the B'aht Qul, just to see if the android was as strong as he was said to be)
Even in the STO storyline, remember, Torg and his House weren't discommendated for trying to kill the House of Martok - they were discommendated for allying themselves to the Tal Shiar and letting Romulans do their dirty work instead of doing it themselves; that is, not for their actions, but for "dishonorable" methods in their actions.
Before any of us try to say "there's no honor in this" or "that's dishonorable", we need to remember; we're thinking like humans with human honor, not Klingons with Klingon honor.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
It frustrates me that Starfleet captains have yet to learn how to think like a Klingon in situations like this. It would have been easy work to give the Klingon his victory but remain in a position of power and honor. He should have been the one to propose the one kilogram deal. "It would be my greatest pleasure to fight such an esteemed and honorable warrior like yourself, but my first duty is to the Alliance between our great nations. A battle here would only serve to create further strife between my people and your Empire that would compromise us both. As a gesture of good faith I propose a joint mining operation where you would recieve one kiligram more of the total yield."
The problem is that it's remarkably easy to think like a Klingon. "How can I bully this person/people/civilization into giving me what I want while claiming to be honorable?" Klingon culture from an extreme long view can be seen as something to aspire to. Honor means everything, and to be dishonest or deceitful can have the most extreme concequences. However, dig deeper and prime examples show that Klingons and their culture can be just as dirty as TNG-era Romulans.
1. Worf had to accept discommendation to 'keep the empire intact', because it's apparently incapable of hearing the truth about the Duras family. What SHOULD have happened if the Klingon Empire was truly as honorable as it claimed was that this whole act shouldn't have happened and the Duras family should have be cast out/whatever.
2. Gowron and Changling Martok claim that capturing Cardassian terrority is to prevent the Founders from taking over and using the Cardassian for themselves. What happens when the Council is revealed to be free of Changlings? Does Gowron back off from his claims and call back the fleet? No, he decides "It doesn't matter, Cardassia will be better off in Klingon control." THEN he demands to be given the Detepa Council or he'll attack DS9. So much for being honorable.
Klingons like to think of themselves as these proper warriors who know what it means to fight for family or Empire, when they're really nothing more than a bunch of bullies hiding behind an excuse. Why should the Federation Captain have accepted that? Frankly, I would've told the Klingon Captain, "Too bad, we discovered this place first. Go find another place with ore."
It frustrates me that Starfleet captains have yet to learn how to think like a Klingon in situations like this. It would have been easy work to give the Klingon his victory but remain in a position of power and honor. He should have been the one to propose the one kilogram deal. "It would be my greatest pleasure to fight such an esteemed and honorable warrior like yourself, but my first duty is to the Alliance between our great nations. A battle here would only serve to create further strife between my people and your Empire that would compromise us both. As a gesture of good faith I propose a joint mining operation where you would recieve one kiligram more of the total yield."
The problem is that it's remarkably easy to think like a Klingon. "How can I bully this person/people/civilization into giving me what I want while claiming to be honorable?" Klingon culture from an extreme long view can be seen as something to aspire to. Honor means everything, and to be dishonest or deceitful can have the most extreme concequences. However, dig deeper and prime examples show that Klingons and their culture can be just as dirty as TNG-era Romulans.
1. Worf had to accept discommendation to 'keep the empire intact', because it's apparently incapable of hearing the truth about the Duras family. What SHOULD have happened if the Klingon Empire was truly as honorable as it claimed was that this whole act shouldn't have happened and the Duras family should have be cast out/whatever.
2. Gowron and Changling Martok claim that capturing Cardassian terrority is to prevent the Founders from taking over and using the Cardassian for themselves. What happens when the Council is revealed to be free of Changlings? Does Gowron back off from his claims and call back the fleet? No, he decides "It doesn't matter, Cardassia will be better off in Klingon control." THEN he demands to be given the Detepa Council or he'll attack DS9. So much for being honorable.
Klingons like to think of themselves as these proper warriors who know what it means to fight for family or Empire, when they're really nothing more than a bunch of bullies hiding behind an excuse. Why should the Federation Captain have accepted that? Frankly, I would've told the Klingon Captain, "Too bad, we discovered this place first. Go find another place with ore."
So you would have been the captain that broke the Alliance? Over the contents of your PADD? All to try and bully the poor, beleaguered Klingon captain with a stardate and not even a proper weapon?
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
So you would have been the captain that broke the Alliance? Over the contents of your PADD? All to try and bully the poor, beleaguered Klingon captain with a stardate and not even a proper weapon?
No, I wouldn't have broken the Alliance. I would simply to be standing up for Federtaion, myself, and my crew. How is it bullying when I'd simply be refusing to bow down to someone? That would be up to the Klingon captain. I wouldn't fire on him first, letting him decide if he wanted to shot on a Federation ship. Imagine if the situation was reversed, how 'willing' would the Klingon have been to entertain any of this? The Klingon didn't try to claim that the Klingon's actually found the planet first, and instead merely said that because it was war, the Federation claim wasn't valid? Would that have been acceptable in the reverse?
As Ambassador K'Ehleyr said to Duras: "Don't play the wounded Klingon for me. You don't do it very well."
Klingons seem to do very well at pretending to be the victims. "We're withdrawing from the Khitomer Accords because the Federation won't support our unwarrented attack on the Cardassians."
So you would have been the captain that broke the Alliance? Over the contents of your PADD? All to try and bully the poor, beleaguered Klingon captain with a stardate and not even a proper weapon?
No, I wouldn't have broken the Alliance. I would simply to be standing up for Federtaion, myself, and my crew. How is it bullying when I'd simply be refusing to bow down to someone? That would be up to the Klingon captain. I wouldn't fire on him first, letting him decide if he wanted to shot on a Federation ship. Imagine if the situation was reversed, how 'willing' would the Klingon have been to entertain any of this? The Klingon didn't try to claim that the Klingon's actually found the planet first, and instead merely said that because it was war, the Federation claim wasn't valid? Would that have been acceptable in the reverse?
As Ambassador K'Ehleyr said to Duras: "Don't play the wounded Klingon for me. You don't do it very well."
Klingons seem to do very well at pretending to be the victims. "We're withdrawing from the Khitomer Accords because the Federation won't support our unwarrented attack on the Cardassians."
If a reasonable Federation captain refuses to bow down to someone based on the contents of his console, how do you expect a Klingon captain to do so when his ship was in orbit before any Federation ship or mining operation was present?
...
“Captain, I am detecting a Klingon vessel already in orbit,” Lieutenant Commander Rochi said, brushing back a strand of auburn hair that had fallen over her face, “The designation is I.K.S. Leng.”
...
“Actually, this planet was first surveyed in,” Trox glanced down at his console,”2407 by the U.S.S. Belize. Therefore we claim the mineral rights.”
...
In other words: My console says I'm right, even though your ship was here first.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
If a reasonable Federation captain refuses to bow down to someone based on the contents of his console, how do you expect a Klingon captain to do so when his ship was in orbit before any Federation ship or mining operation was present?
A Federation captain would probably have accepted the claim made by the Klingon captain if the situation was reversed, because it would be the proper thing to do and honorable. However, what we see from this Klingon captain is a BLATANT disregard for the apparent Discovery clause under the articles of the alliance between the Federation and Klingon Empire. Refusing to acknowledge the Federation's rights simply because they were at war. Doesn't sound very HONORABLE to me.
My original question was how the Klingon captain would react if he was told the Klingon Empire's claim to a planet wasn't being acknowledged, and being told to leave the system.
If a reasonable Federation captain refuses to bow down to someone based on the contents of his console, how do you expect a Klingon captain to do so when his ship was in orbit before any Federation ship or mining operation was present?
A Federation captain would probably have accepted the claim made by the Klingon captain if the situation was reversed, because it would be the proper thing to do and honorable. However, what we see from this Klingon captain is a BLATANT disregard for the apparent Discovery clause under the articles of the alliance between the Federation and Klingon Empire. Refusing to acknowledge the Federation's rights simply because they were at war. Doesn't sound very HONORABLE to me.
My original question was how the Klingon captain would react if he was told the Klingon Empire's claim to a planet wasn't being acknowledged, and being told to leave the system.
He was told that the Klingon Empire's claim to the planet wasn't being acknowledged, based upon the contents of Trox's console... thus, I'm sure you read how he'd react. It was right there in the Blog. Fortunately so was Commander Gatar/Gatra (yeah, they changed her name a couple times if you were paying attention), who proved herself capable of negotiating an agreement that suited both sides.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
So you would have been the captain that broke the Alliance? Over the contents of your PADD? All to try and bully the poor, beleaguered Klingon captain with a stardate and not even a proper weapon?
No, I wouldn't have broken the Alliance. I would simply to be standing up for Federtaion, myself, and my crew. How is it bullying when I'd simply be refusing to bow down to someone? That would be up to the Klingon captain. I wouldn't fire on him first, letting him decide if he wanted to shot on a Federation ship. Imagine if the situation was reversed, how 'willing' would the Klingon have been to entertain any of this? The Klingon didn't try to claim that the Klingon's actually found the planet first, and instead merely said that because it was war, the Federation claim wasn't valid? Would that have been acceptable in the reverse?
As Ambassador K'Ehleyr said to Duras: "Don't play the wounded Klingon for me. You don't do it very well."
Klingons seem to do very well at pretending to be the victims. "We're withdrawing from the Khitomer Accords because the Federation won't support our unwarrented attack on the Cardassians."
If a reasonable Federation captain refuses to bow down to someone based on the contents of his console, how do you expect a Klingon captain to do so when his ship was in orbit before any Federation ship or mining operation was present?
...
“Captain, I am detecting a Klingon vessel already in orbit,” Lieutenant Commander Rochi said, brushing back a strand of auburn hair that had fallen over her face, “The designation is I.K.S. Leng.”
...
“Actually, this planet was first surveyed in,” Trox glanced down at his console,”2407 by the U.S.S. Belize. Therefore we claim the mineral rights.”
...
In other words: My console says I'm right, even though your ship was here first.
Which, as I observed earlier, is the exact opposite of the claim J'mpok made at the start of the war: "My feudal cultural traditions say I'm right, even though your colonists were here first."
Either current possession counts or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
So you would have been the captain that broke the Alliance? Over the contents of your PADD? All to try and bully the poor, beleaguered Klingon captain with a stardate and not even a proper weapon?
No, I wouldn't have broken the Alliance. I would simply to be standing up for Federtaion, myself, and my crew. How is it bullying when I'd simply be refusing to bow down to someone? That would be up to the Klingon captain. I wouldn't fire on him first, letting him decide if he wanted to shot on a Federation ship. Imagine if the situation was reversed, how 'willing' would the Klingon have been to entertain any of this? The Klingon didn't try to claim that the Klingon's actually found the planet first, and instead merely said that because it was war, the Federation claim wasn't valid? Would that have been acceptable in the reverse?
As Ambassador K'Ehleyr said to Duras: "Don't play the wounded Klingon for me. You don't do it very well."
Klingons seem to do very well at pretending to be the victims. "We're withdrawing from the Khitomer Accords because the Federation won't support our unwarrented attack on the Cardassians."
If a reasonable Federation captain refuses to bow down to someone based on the contents of his console, how do you expect a Klingon captain to do so when his ship was in orbit before any Federation ship or mining operation was present?
...
“Captain, I am detecting a Klingon vessel already in orbit,” Lieutenant Commander Rochi said, brushing back a strand of auburn hair that had fallen over her face, “The designation is I.K.S. Leng.”
...
“Actually, this planet was first surveyed in,” Trox glanced down at his console,”2407 by the U.S.S. Belize. Therefore we claim the mineral rights.”
...
In other words: My console says I'm right, even though your ship was here first.
Which, as I observed earlier, is the exact opposite of the claim J'mpok made at the start of the war: "My feudal cultural traditions say I'm right, even though your colonists were here first."
Either current possession counts or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.
Exactly. So until someone else makes a reasonable suggestion, both the Federation and Klingon captains continue to act like... well, you read the Blog too, right?
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Exactly. So until someone else makes a reasonable suggestion, both the Federation and Klingon captains continue to act like... well, you read the Blog too, right?
The thing is, a reasonable suggestion already exists if the Empire and Federation cared to look at it; the Organian Peace Treaty, as old (and as possibly superceded by the Khitomer and Jenolan Accords) as it is, states that "any planet disputed between the two powers would be awarded to the side that demonstrated it could develop that planet most efficiently" (direct quote from the Star Trek Encyclopedia, '99 edition). Then it simply becomes a matter of looking at whose technology and location will allow the most ore to be mined and shipped off for refinement with the least amount of resources expended in the process - i.e., Who has a closer refining facility? Who has the manpower and equipment available and who would need to take time to assemble it? Whose forces are in a better position to defend the location if it comes under attack? Etc.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Comments
And the main reason there was a war was becuase the Klingons pushed the Cardassians into the Dominion, other wise the Dominion would have to deal with a very easy to close off choke point to invade.
Also the federation started winning becuase the ROMULANS sided with them.
And it was delightful to see the Romulans fooled into joining the war, wasn't it? The master manipulators were themselves manipulated! Ha!
Yes, D'Tan knew that the only way the Republic could survive was through the support of the Federation and the Klingon Empire. But I have no doubt that D'Tan's consistent push for alliance was, in part, motivated by his awareness of that part of history - when the three great powers stand together, there is little that cannot be accomplished. The Iconian War is just further proof.
However, just as others have said here, peace will be hardest on the Klingons. The Federation will use its' massive industrial base and technological prowess to rebuild, while the Republic can turn toward further consolidating its' position and integrating more of the shattered Romulan Star Empire (Sela be damned) but the Klingons? The Chancellor might use this time to redirect that ferocity toward the 'honor' of rebuilding the Empire, but even then - to a Klingon warrior, how else might the Empire be rebuilt other than through further conquest?
Time will tell.
In my opinion, a good Klingon captain would have immediately recognized the situation and started barking orders for his crew to assemble away teams to start the mining process...and to tell them to be aware that their Federation counterparts will be doing the same: to assist where they can without going out of their way to do so and to remain focused on obtaining ore. And he would have barked those orders with authority! If he wanted to prepare for battle, he could also have sent down security parties to protect the mining interests in case A REAL ENEMY should come along and decide to disrupt the operation. Just my opinion...
2: I agree that a confrontation seems stupid. It's a planet not an asteroid.... why can't they just say the feds get the north and the KDF the south? Or something...
My character Tsin'xing
Exactly! Number one is hilarious, but true. It's as if she's the one with the brains who has to sort through his mess! Ha ha!
And yet it was the fall of the Earth that was considered to be what would kill the alliance, which implies the federation is the most important part of it, Kagran even mention Qu'nos probably wouldn't last if Earth fell, and you'll notice that despite being stretched think the federation still held enough that an attack on sol by the Klingons was considered a suicide mission and the Iconians needed a massive fleet to attack it, where as the Klingons needed help when the Undine and Iconians attacked their homeworld.
The fact of the matter that is even supported by the blog is that the Klingon war machine is exhausted.
But we would've been overwhelmed without the Klingons and crushed. Furthermore when the Breen entered it was ONLY the Klingons who could actually stand against them, both Federation and Romulan had to fall back.
As for the fact that they pushed the Cardassians into the Dominion's loving arms, that is still the excellent manipulations of the founders rather than the foolishness of the Klingons. That was Changeling Martok all day. I won't fault the Klingons for the Founder's plan working well.
As a matter of story in STO, the Klingon's issue with the Undine makes a certain sense under the guise of that, as the Klingons probably should be extra sensitive about shape shifters infiltrating governments. Feeling if it can happen to the MIGHTY KLINGON EMPIRE then any of these "weaker" species would be even more vulnerable.
Well look at TOS' idea of computers
It's interesting because much of the time they were trying to avoid using transporter magic as a means of story resolution.
Funny you bring up Worf's broken back since that was pretty much a stem cell episode, cloning a brand new spinal cord.
That said Star Trek still has retroviral therapy. Genetically engineered viruses to heal rather than infect.
An interesting thought. My Klingon Captain wouldn't have even registered the need for a conflict it would've been, "Ah, Starfleet is here, excellent, open a channel. QAPLA Captain. I take it you are here about the Tritanium. We need to set up a joint mining operation as quickly as possible, the Empire needs this ore quickly to rebuild our fleets before the next threat arrives."
"Captain, what makes you think there's a next threat?"
"There's always a next threat. And when you least expect it. Starfleet's vaunted Corps of Engineers can handle construction, we will handle security, I assume the Republic will provide their expert Reman miners for manpower if they wish to participate."
You know, Klingon in Charge, but not actually being hostile to his straight up ally.
You have a balanced holistic view of the situation. Though I am not as bullish as you are on Klingon Political Stability especially since that High Council you mentioned was assassinated by M'Tara. Whether the lessons they learned were passed down remains to be seen. Furthermore Klingon Society has proven to be rather monolithic as far as their political ways are. I would never say they can't change, I'll just need more evidence that they're taking what they've learned to heart. Even Kagran didn't seem all that enthused that the Empire at large would see the value in the victory wrought by mercy and compassion. But he will try. So I'm not expecting a smooth transition and Klingons seeing the light. But we can hope.
The Klingons are not stupid, but they are blindingly prideful, and can't tolerate showing even the slightest weakness. If Martok was still alive then I'd be far more optimistic. If Worf was Chancellor I'd think we were on the right path.
J'mpok said this in 2407, three years ago.
That guy, I do not trust. Now if he's learned his lesson then that's fine, but I'm skeptical.
Gowron still ultimately made the choice, just like the US Congress chose to authorize the invasion of Iraq based on evidence that had been cherry-picked by the Bush Administration to support something that goddamn cowboy had wanted to do since before he took office. (Yes, I went there.)
Besides, Gowron had plenty of ulterior motives, just like J'mpok. He was a politically weak chancellor trying to shore up his military credentials and political support so he wouldn't be overthrown, plus there's my pet theory that the Klingon nobles saw the overthrow of the military dictatorship and didn't want their own commonfolk getting ideas.
As with Her Royal Sociopathy and the poor misunderstood Iconians, THE KLINGONS MADE A CHOICE. THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.
I've been saying for a while now that the inherent flaw in the status quo between the Klingons and the Federation is exactly the opposite of your opinion. The Klingons and Feds are fine as long as there's somebody else they're both worried about. The Romulans played that role for most of the first half of the 24th century, then it was the Dominion, then in STO it was the Iconians.
But what happens when they run out of mutual enemies they can fight?
I agree completely with @gulberat: If Ka'ar genuinely didn't want to fight Madrid he should've come out and said it himself instead of hiding behind his XO, Orion or not. That would show he has both courage and personal integrity, a component of batlh severely lacking in the Klingon Empire for a very long time. Instead he showed himself to be a coward and a hypocrite.
ETA: Besides, it's not like he can exactly be challenged for command. It's a plot point in the KDF tutorial arc that only the first officer has the right to challenge the CO for command, and she agrees with him. If anybody else does it, it's not a legitimate challenge, it's just mutiny.
Oh, yeah, J'mpok, right. The guy who:
Just cut his damn head off already, Worf.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
But when you add that, yeah, it makes Ka'ar look even worse. What he really wants is his political accolades.
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For reference, the context is that there's some question after you get back to Qo'noS of whether you, originally second officer on the BoP, could legitimately challenge Jurlek for committing treason. Technically you had been advanced to first officer after Jurlek backstabbed Doran when she tried to challenge on the same grounds, so you'd been XO for about five minutes when you offed him. But apparently it's in a bit of a legal gray area so they have you fight a couple sparring matches as a formality to confirm you as CO.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Yep, I never got off the ship before the FPS problem became overwhelming.
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Don't resort to such a pathetic argument as plot, you've got far too many good points to drag yourself down with that.
If you worry about punishing everyone for their actions diplomacy becomes very difficult.
He didn't make his choice in a vacuum, the Founders clearly saw the weakness in the Klingon political class that they could make that play and it worked beautifully. The same Founders who almost turned Earth into police state, obliterated the Obsidian Order and devastated the Tal Shiar, and of course, conned the Cardassians into joining them.
And oh if only the Nobles were so concerned about the common Klingon.
History doesn't actually agree with you however. In the mid 24th century the Klingon Federation peace was on the verge of crumbling and only the intervention of the Enterprise-C at Narendra restored it. That's right, it only took one generation for the good will of Khitomer and saving them from Praxis to evaporate. Willfully weak at History.
It's interesting how in the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline the Klingons weren't at war with the Romulans who had perpetrated the attack, but the Federation that failed to successfully intervene.
I think the larger issue is that it's obvious even to the Klingons that the Federation is by far the biggest threat, and if all these harmony loving utopian peaceniks get a wild hair up their TRIBBLE we're gonna get crushed.
That said, you're right about Ka'ar. I wasn't disagreeing with that at all. Instead of greeting the Federation like the blood brothers we are, he greeted us with the old posturing and grand standing TRIBBLE that makes Starfleet roll its eyes.
As for the Orion Commander, the fact that she is the gateway to challenging the Captain speaks volumes for just how badass she is. Quite impressive.
Another thing about Klingon military politics that we haven't touched on is the interplay between house and military. The Houses each have their own ships/fleets which they then pledge to the Chancellor and the KDF. So the Captain of this ship not only has to consider the general mood of the Klingon Fleet, but also the political alignment of his own house, whether or not he's actually a member of that house or he just serves in the house and has proven himself worthy of command of a ship. Where do his house's loyalties lie? Do they have all old ties to the Duras? Does his House head hate the Federation? It's a very rich dramatic field for Cryptic to plant seeds in and explore.
Frankly let me take his head, I'LL put the damn cloak on Worf. That bum has been skipping out on his responsibility to lead the Empire for forty damn years.
The war with the Gorn though was generated by the Undine threat. J'mpok did better than expected by letting them remain semiautonomous. So that was 2384, but the reason the Klingons were in conflict with the Gorn in the first place was this.
He didn't make the final push into Gorn space until this.
That said, of course the first attack was the Undine baiting the Klingons and the Klingons fell for it hook line and sinker. But from his perspective he was first acting in self defense and second protecting the quadrant.
Of course it was greed leading to the stupidity of attacking the Federation. He was feeling himself. J'mpok is that conquest and glory kind of Klingon that's gonna get the empire destroyed.
BSG-Benne Gesserit Consortium
Just for the record, that comment wasn't actually part of my argument, it was a joke. Just the sheer astronomical odds that such an event could take place pretty much begs for a "will of the Force" type remark.
I'm not going to deny that the Founders are very good at what they do; they've had a minimum of 2,000 years to practice (we get conflicting numbers for the age of the Dominion in different episodes). But the onus is still on Gowron for blindly trusting one particular advisor and not fully investigating the situation on the ground before choosing his course of action. Which in all fairness is not a failing unique to Klingon leaders by any stretch, but Klingon leaders are who we're talking about here.
Changeling!Martok didn't make the decision to go to war with the Cardassians. Gowron did. Just like the Undine didn't make the decision for J'mpok to pick fights with the Gorn and Federation; per the Path to 2409, he was champing at the bit well before anybody knew the Undine were involved.
They should be. No matter whether they acknowledge it, governments have a need of their subjects no less than subjects have a need for their government. A government can only stand as long as the folks on the ground are either too happy or too scared to rebel. This is particularly true of a military dictatorship like the Cardassian Empire or the Klingon Empire: their existence is staked entirely on the perceived strength of the regime.
There was an article in The Atlantic a few months back analyzing Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine. One conclusion drawn in the print version of the article (I wish I could find it on the Internet) is that Putin doesn't want dissatisfied Russians getting the idea they can rise up and get rid of him the way the Orange Revolution threw out an unpopular Ukrainian government across the border, so he's f*cking up Ukraine and using his propaganda machine to reject reality and substitute his own.
Let's not forget here that in TOS the Klingons were supposed to represent Russia.
That's actually what I was referring to by the Khitomer Accords alliance using the Romulans as their bogeymen. It's an argument I've made before, I just screwed up the date this time (blame sleep deprivation). But you see my point that unless there's an external enemy both sides are worried about, the Klingons just start picking fights with the Federation instead so that they can keep from picking fights with themselves. That is not somebody I want as an ally even before you factor in their record on sentient rights, just because eventually you're going to run out of enemies to point them at.
Too, he's hypocritical in another way that I didn't think of until this afternoon. He's claiming that his current claim invalidates the Federation's prior claim. Recalling recent history, J'mpok's casus belli against the Federation was to invoke old territorial claims to invalidate the Federation possession of several planets in the Hromi Cluster.
So which is it? Does current possession count or not? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
It's things like this that keep supporting the conclusion that "honor" is a completely meaningless word for most Klingons. It's nothing more than an excuse to do whatever they feel like doing: "I'm honorable, therefore anything I do is honorable, and I'm honorable for doing it."
(I'm going to skip responding to the rest of the post because we're basically in agreement overall.)
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I mean, I wrote a good-guy Cardassian who shanked a True Way terrorist in the back and without warning, that he'd caught, quite literally, in the middle of answering the call of nature. I'm sure a Klingon would not have approved of slaying someone under those particular circumstances, called it dishonorable and the whole works, but the difference was that my Legate there had his priorities straight (dead True Way, dagnabbit!), and he didn't go and torture the guy or killing someone who wasn't guilty. He was vulnerable and my Legate was not going to pass up the opportunity to off him quickly before the terrorist could commit his atrocities anywhere else. And as Garak said, stabbing him in the back *was* the safest way. Morally my Legate was the opposite of Garak (a belief in freedom and treating people right), yet he would have been similarly dismissive of an idea that he was wrong to do what he did to that terrorist. (Now, I DO acknowledge some Cardassians, such as the True Way, find that sort of torture and/or collateral damage acceptable and I do not respect those individuals at all. I only tell that story to show what a good Cardassian could look like, and that said good occurs without any code of honor.)
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Think about it; to a Klingon, it's perfectly honorable to use a cloaking device to sneak into enemy territory for an attack as long as they decloak before actually launching the attack so that their enemy can see their face.
To most human cultures, the idea of 'the sins of the fathers shall be visited unto the sons' has become something to be considered barbaric - in Klingon culture, re; Mogh's discommendation and Worf refusing to recognise Alexander as his son at first because then Alexander would be forced to share the "dishonor" of the House of Mogh, it's not just considered acceptable, but proper for fathers and sons to share in the "dishonor" of the other (re; Martok/changling!Martok was dishonored by Worf taking Drex's d'k tahg from him in DS9 "Way of the Warrior")
'Civilized' societies on Earth outlawed the 'Code Duello' a century or more ago, Klingons duel over any real or imagined insult, dishonor or simply to prove whom is stronger (re; TNG "The Chase", while not what we'd consider a duel, a Klingon did challenge Data to the B'aht Qul, just to see if the android was as strong as he was said to be)
Even in the STO storyline, remember, Torg and his House weren't discommendated for trying to kill the House of Martok - they were discommendated for allying themselves to the Tal Shiar and letting Romulans do their dirty work instead of doing it themselves; that is, not for their actions, but for "dishonorable" methods in their actions.
Before any of us try to say "there's no honor in this" or "that's dishonorable", we need to remember; we're thinking like humans with human honor, not Klingons with Klingon honor.
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
The problem is that it's remarkably easy to think like a Klingon. "How can I bully this person/people/civilization into giving me what I want while claiming to be honorable?" Klingon culture from an extreme long view can be seen as something to aspire to. Honor means everything, and to be dishonest or deceitful can have the most extreme concequences. However, dig deeper and prime examples show that Klingons and their culture can be just as dirty as TNG-era Romulans.
1. Worf had to accept discommendation to 'keep the empire intact', because it's apparently incapable of hearing the truth about the Duras family. What SHOULD have happened if the Klingon Empire was truly as honorable as it claimed was that this whole act shouldn't have happened and the Duras family should have be cast out/whatever.
2. Gowron and Changling Martok claim that capturing Cardassian terrority is to prevent the Founders from taking over and using the Cardassian for themselves. What happens when the Council is revealed to be free of Changlings? Does Gowron back off from his claims and call back the fleet? No, he decides "It doesn't matter, Cardassia will be better off in Klingon control." THEN he demands to be given the Detepa Council or he'll attack DS9. So much for being honorable.
Klingons like to think of themselves as these proper warriors who know what it means to fight for family or Empire, when they're really nothing more than a bunch of bullies hiding behind an excuse. Why should the Federation Captain have accepted that? Frankly, I would've told the Klingon Captain, "Too bad, we discovered this place first. Go find another place with ore."
So you would have been the captain that broke the Alliance? Over the contents of your PADD? All to try and bully the poor, beleaguered Klingon captain with a stardate and not even a proper weapon?
As Ambassador K'Ehleyr said to Duras: "Don't play the wounded Klingon for me. You don't do it very well."
Klingons seem to do very well at pretending to be the victims. "We're withdrawing from the Khitomer Accords because the Federation won't support our unwarrented attack on the Cardassians."
If a reasonable Federation captain refuses to bow down to someone based on the contents of his console, how do you expect a Klingon captain to do so when his ship was in orbit before any Federation ship or mining operation was present?
...
“Captain, I am detecting a Klingon vessel already in orbit,” Lieutenant Commander Rochi said, brushing back a strand of auburn hair that had fallen over her face, “The designation is I.K.S. Leng.”
...
“Actually, this planet was first surveyed in,” Trox glanced down at his console,”2407 by the U.S.S. Belize. Therefore we claim the mineral rights.”
...
In other words: My console says I'm right, even though your ship was here first.
A Federation captain would probably have accepted the claim made by the Klingon captain if the situation was reversed, because it would be the proper thing to do and honorable. However, what we see from this Klingon captain is a BLATANT disregard for the apparent Discovery clause under the articles of the alliance between the Federation and Klingon Empire. Refusing to acknowledge the Federation's rights simply because they were at war. Doesn't sound very HONORABLE to me.
My original question was how the Klingon captain would react if he was told the Klingon Empire's claim to a planet wasn't being acknowledged, and being told to leave the system.
He was told that the Klingon Empire's claim to the planet wasn't being acknowledged, based upon the contents of Trox's console... thus, I'm sure you read how he'd react. It was right there in the Blog. Fortunately so was Commander Gatar/Gatra (yeah, they changed her name a couple times if you were paying attention), who proved herself capable of negotiating an agreement that suited both sides.
Which, as I observed earlier, is the exact opposite of the claim J'mpok made at the start of the war: "My feudal cultural traditions say I'm right, even though your colonists were here first."
Either current possession counts or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Exactly. So until someone else makes a reasonable suggestion, both the Federation and Klingon captains continue to act like... well, you read the Blog too, right?
The thing is, a reasonable suggestion already exists if the Empire and Federation cared to look at it; the Organian Peace Treaty, as old (and as possibly superceded by the Khitomer and Jenolan Accords) as it is, states that "any planet disputed between the two powers would be awarded to the side that demonstrated it could develop that planet most efficiently" (direct quote from the Star Trek Encyclopedia, '99 edition). Then it simply becomes a matter of looking at whose technology and location will allow the most ore to be mined and shipped off for refinement with the least amount of resources expended in the process - i.e., Who has a closer refining facility? Who has the manpower and equipment available and who would need to take time to assemble it? Whose forces are in a better position to defend the location if it comes under attack? Etc.
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...