This reminds me of the Featured episode where Tuvok takes you to the Delta Quadrant in that new science ship I think it's "A step between stars", Captain Koren throws a tantrum and declares "I will show you what happens when a Klingon looses patience". My first thought when she did that was "I'll show you what happens when the Federation stops playing nice!" I really wanted to just stomp her face and ship into the proverbial ground just as a reminder to "Beware the nice ones!
I'm okay with this, aside from the whole "red alliance" nonsense still going on.
However, I have one crazy suggestion - how about we have those little stories and sequences in the actual game? STO kind of stagnates in things to do and we are sitting there moving sliders and playing card games, waiting for timegates and little bits of content that are more interesting than any of this are only released in blog posts, people who just play the game never get to read these, it's like "would have been nice, but..." from the developers, admitting that putting story int he game is not possible. And no, it doesn't mean new FE, it would already be sufficient to receive "Fleet News" a few times a month in the game and we can read those posts on our pads or in-game mail, marked as reports from stuff happening in the game-universe.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
"The Alliance was even commanded by a Klingon General.”
It wouldn't be surprising, would it? He led the Alliance to victory in a war against a superior foe - of course he'll be promoted after achieving such success.
I suspect we'll still see Captain Kagran in replays but any future encounters with him will be as General Kagran.
- - - - I n f e r i o r i t y - C o m p l e x - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And in 25th century, tritanium and most other core metals can be replicated, so your story premise is flawed and solely based on the game's own grind model that requires us to actually mine it at pre-PvE levels. Even on Voyager (24th) century it was possible to replicate devices that were made of tritanium so... whatever.
Just because it CAN be replicated doesn't mean that this is an economical solution for producing it in sufficient quantities to be industrially and militarily useful. Creating matter out of energy undoubtedly requires as much, and most likely more, energy than annihilating that matter would have produced. While replicating small components in situations where it is not feasible to lug around an entire arsenal of individual spare parts is certainly possible, replicating an entire ship hull's worth of the stuff is probably cost-prohibitive.
Replicators do not "create matter from energy". Replicators are transporters, "beaming" particles together to form something. Those particles have to be somewhere. Everything you replicate has to be in stock. Thus you cannot just replicate a material without having said material or it's components in the first place. Replicators aren't magic machines that make stuff appear, you still need the resources for all the stuff you replicate.
Also, replicators have strict limits of what is possible. Even industrial replicators cannot create shuttles or starships, just components and those cannot contain any form of electronic circutry,l as replicating computer chips will result in faulty equipment - everything needs to be assembled traditionally. In conclusion, no you cannot relicate Tritanium without having it, and even if you could create it from different materials the amount of energy required for this would be disproportional to mine it.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
You know, the fact that they asked an Orion female to negotiate with the Federation captain is not a position of weakness. It's one of guile, Orions are masters of seduction.
They are probably in much better condition than she let on and they simply wanted the ore without damaging a warship while they rebuild themselves.
Well, if certain people listened to Admiral Cartwright, we wouldn't have this problem now, would we?
Admiral Cartwright was wrong in the way he went about it (I don't condone the assassinations and sneak attacks), but dictating stronger above-board terms to the Klingons would have been nice.
This reminds me of the Featured episode where Tuvok takes you to the Delta Quadrant in that new science ship I think it's "A step between stars", Captain Koren throws a tantrum and declares "I will show you what happens when a Klingon looses patience". My first thought when she did that was "I'll show you what happens when the Federation stops playing nice!" I really wanted to just stomp her face and ship into the proverbial ground just as a reminder to "Beware the nice ones!
Her ranting in "Surface Tension" had me looking for the "team kill" button big time. And Sugihara's groveling...he should've reminded the Klinks that by starting the war they had helped weaken the quadrant before greater enemies just like they did with the Dominion, which is why their territory-grabbing did not exactly inspire any confidence in the truth of their words about the infiltrators. They'd done that before and been devastatingly wrong, after all!
At least KDF players now know why the Feds always get the bulk of any new ships; they don't have enough ore
I don't know that that's the reason. But what this does illustrate is the greater resilience the Federation has in terms of infrastructure and society. Which is the result when you are able to place genuine value on other things besides fighting. Now the Federation SHOULD be willing to recognize force as a tool that is necessary to use sometimes and not always back down just because there's about to be a conflict (just like the Klinks shouldn't always jump at every chance to beat someone up).
You know, the fact that they asked an Orion female to negotiate with the Federation captain is not a position of weakness. It's one of guile, Orions are masters of seduction.
They are probably in much better condition than she let on and they simply wanted the ore without damaging a warship while they rebuild themselves.
It sounds very shrewd and cunning if you ask me.
While knowing the weaknesses of the Klingons (little scientific capacity since science doesn't bring GLORY and a precarious political system), I do think the Federation should have had a position of strength, I had missed the detail that the negotiator was an Orion. That definitely increases my sense of the Starfleet captain having been manipulated when otherwise the Federation could have had a win.
Post edited by gulberat on
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
In multiple instances in series it was stated that the replicators and transporters are matter energy conversion devices and even industrial replicators are described in at least one or two canon episodes as things necessary to produce large enough pieces of machinery and equipment to achieve rebuilding of some Cardassian colony or whatever. So if you de-materialize something at an atomic level, you can reshuffle it into something else upon materialization. So you can get tritanium by converting space dust. But that's not replication, that's matter re-sequencing.
Also, replicators were mostly down on Voyager when ENERGY reserves were getting low, not cargo bay junk or raw materials, so you need to move away from ENT and TOS, maybe even some early TNG era concept of a replicator (protein resequencers/food dispensors/whatever) towards something that replicators have evolved into even during canon series and movies.
I agree there are complex devices that have to be assembled or built with more specialized equipment, probably because of raw computer core memory necessary to store such large and complex patterns, but raw metals or alloys shouldn't be an issue in 25th century anymore.
Off hand I remember the last episode of TNG when captain Picard orders Earl Grey in an alternate timeline to Encounter at farpoint. Replicator answers that beverage has not been programmed. It didn't say we are all out of tea bags in cargo bay 4 container 17. It just lacked the pattern to create it out of thin air.
To quote Gene Rodenberry, Sir, i'm afraid you don't distinguish a deflector from the shields.
It was also stated multiple times in Star Trek that the Federation still engages in interstellar Trade and does do stuff like Dilithium mining. So obviously there is stuff that cannot be replicated, or not replicated effectively.
There is certainly no on-screen evidence that they can replicate Tritanium. Tritanium is a fictional material and we don't know if it's a "base material", a complex alloy or a rare element.
The limits of replicator technology are primarily an element of the plot, as usual for a TV show.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
In multiple instances in series it was stated that the replicators and transporters are matter energy conversion devices and even industrial replicators are described in at least one or two canon episodes as things necessary to produce large enough pieces of machinery and equipment to achieve rebuilding of some Cardassian colony or whatever. So if you de-materialize something at an atomic level, you can reshuffle it into something else upon materialization. So you can get tritanium by converting space dust. But that's not replication, that's matter re-sequencing.
This process certainly uses a lot of energy. You still need A to make B, in a simple example you need oxygen and hydrogen stored somewhere to replicate water. Where the stuff comes from is irrelevant, I think numerous times it has been mentioned that you can suck in space dust and harvest it for the resources, that's true. We have no idea, however, what Tritanium is and if that works - the mere fact that it is mined, along many other materials, should canonically point out that replicating it is not an option.
Also, replicators were mostly down on Voyager when ENERGY reserves were getting low, not cargo bay junk or raw materials, so you need to move away from ENT and TOS, maybe even some early TNG era concept of a replicator (protein resequencers/food dispensors/whatever) towards something that replicators have evolved into even during canon series and movies.
Yes, because you need a ton of energy of operate it for sure. Maybe what I said originally is technically wrong, I don't doubt the process requires a lot of energy. Still you don't use enrgy to make something appear out of nothing, you need energy to disassemble and assemble something.
I agree there are complex devices that have to be assembled or built with more specialized equipment, probably because of raw computer core memory necessary to store such large and complex patterns, but raw metals or alloys shouldn't be an issue in 25th century anymore.
It certainly is as for example Latinum is still in use which is unrepiclatable. There are still "unreplicatable materials" (probably not anymore since the crafting revamp) around and you can't get dilithium from your replicator. Canonically, replicating "computer chips" results in faulty equipment as analyzed by Data and the computer in TNG. The argument "it's the future now, so nothing applies" is not really ana rgument I'd let count. It's all speculation and in the end having a game based on a work with some kind of canon, throwing that out of the window because "it's the future now" even if some advance in technology would be logical we still follow the rules established. If not we could just trash the whole "Star Trek" thing entirely.
Off hand I remember the last episode of TNG when captain Picard orders Earl Grey in an alternate timeline to Encounter at farpoint. Replicator answers that beverage has not been programmed. It didn't say we are all out of tea bags in cargo bay 4 container 17. It just lacked the pattern to create it out of thin air.
To quote Gene Rodenberry, Sir, i'm afraid you don't distinguish a deflector from the shields.
That doesn't say anything about how a transporter works nor does it proof your point. Why should a missing pattern be the same as being out of resources? It's something completely different. It has been made clear that a replicator needs a "pattern" or recipe of whatever you want to replicate. With it you can even replicate working organs for transplantation but enough things are unable to be replicated. Wether or not it makes sense to do so is rather irrelevant, as Star Trek-verse is not our universe and it follows whatever rules the show made up.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
By "replicating working organs," are you referring to the artificial type?
As I recall, the writers failed to anticipate what we would potentially learn to do with stem cells, hence the whole "Worf wants to off himself" episode. (And Picard's artificial heart, when we may be able to grow a new one before the 21st century is out.)
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
By "replicating working organs," are you referring to the artificial type?
As I recall, the writers failed to anticipate what we would potentially learn to do with stem cells, hence the whole "Worf wants to off himself" episode. (And Picard's artificial heart, when we may be able to grow a new one before the 21st century is out.)
That's one of the advancements we witness on-screen (although I blame Voyagers crappy writing as well) - in TNG, replicating "genuine" organs required a special technology only found in dedicated medical facilities - living tissue, not artificial surrogates. In VOY I think it is stated that the ship's (medical) replicator can replicate living organs for transplantation, it cannot replicate a Talaxian lung for Neelix though because the computer is not familiar with Talaxians and the Talaxian nervous system is too complex to reliably be replicated. It implies, however, that human and a number of other organs can be replicated.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It may not have been the direct words, but it was the subtext: they are preying on Federation acquiescence and weakness of will.
No, she was relying on our good will and good sense to prevent something stupid and unnecessary from happening because as Klingons they couldn't back down. Kindness is NOT weakness.
That said, Kagran himself may be an indicator that if confronted severely enough with the futility of the Empire's ways, a change in mindset can occur.
But as I alluded to before, the only reason I am making a more idealistic statement is the fact that we looked ahead a century or so on the timeline in Enterprise, and saw the eventual outcome for the Empire, that for whatever reason, the Empire eventually ceded its sovereignty to the Federation. If not for that, as I said above, I would've taken a much grimmer outlook, limited to simply...shall we say...exacerbating the conditions leading to civil war, and allowing the Empire to just collapse into a squabbling Kazon-type thing.
Kagran and Worf definitely. I have little doubt that they aren't the only ones who would rise. But the trigger has to be internal. Speaking of Kagran he himself was hoping that mercy winning the war would be wisdom that the Klingons could benefit from, so his mind is already on it.
I honestly either missed or completely forgot that. It is curious that Cryptic also seems to have missed that, recall there is a 29th century Klingon timeship. Of course that's not purely indicative as Andorians, Vulcans, and Caitians still make their own ships but still. On the other hand it may have been from the mirror universe so I could be wrong. That said I feel weird about Klingons joining the Federation. It'd be like making Russia a state.
IMO, we get a nice hint that the Romulan democratization was indeed from within in the Krenim "best case scenario" projection. Though we are all aware that those projections are flawed, the computer is likely making its conjecture from existing data wherein many people made individual decisions to follow D'Tan, like we see Temer do.
As far as I am aware, D'Tan's Unificationist views are known but are not permitted to dictate Republic policy. That means the Romulans have found a way to have a public disagreement with him yet are still willing to ally with him on the ideals of a Republic alone. I'd like to see the Republic become stronger, but I think that the move away from dictatorship was fully internal. If it had been solely a Spock-instigated Unificationist thing, I don't think it could've gained broader appeal. D'Tan may have gotten a Unificationist influence from Spock, but I see no evidence he's successfully passed it on (and he seems to realize he cannot and should not force that on anyone).
If a "Gorkonite" faction rises on the KDF side in the wake of a civil war, that would definitely be internal. To my mind, it is not a Prime Directive consideration if the civil war occurs merely as a result of the Federation taking a stronger approach to defending its interests. The Prime Directive only means that once the civil war ensues, the Federation's job is to pull out the popcorn and watch. IMO there's enough to suggest a "Gorkonite" faction can rise from the dust without the Feds having to lift a finger once the civil war is underway.
Heck...maybe Kagran would be sufficiently motivated to lead it. We've seen him so much as come out and say it in "Midnight."
Definitely. After Shinzon the Romulans had been through a huge cultural upheaval, Donatra was leading a more honorable faction and forcing changes. Hobus likely vastly accelerated something that was already in progress. The death of the senate back in 2379 seemed to weaken the political restrictions. Probably why the Tal Shiar has grown so much. Without the politics, they went to the police state, which then made people more rebellious.
As for Reunification it appears that D'Tan has expanded the beliefs beyond general reintegration of Vulcans and Romulans as a species but political unity across the major powers. However Spock didn't raise no fool. D'Tan feels that the Romulans have to have their own place, their own home before they could unify with anybody. He didn't want to bring the Romulans to the table as beggars for scraps. He didn't start with just a diplomatic corps he was cruising around on a Flotilla of Romulan Warbirds and fighting off the Tal Shiar.
I don't think the spirit of the Prime Directive is served if we push the Klingons into a Civil War. That said, Klingons seem to have major internal conflicts once a generation anyway, so it would probably require even less effort on the part of the Federation no matter what than you've even surmised.
And there's already evidence in-game to support a fracturing of the Empire; talk of (as stated) supporters of Martok still seeking revenge on J'mpok, some NPCs say "Rumors claim that the ties between the House of J'mpok and the House of Duras do not bind as tightly as they once did"...
Not to mention that there's probably a massive up-heaval in the Empire that's just been waiting for war to die down to rear its head - the deaths of Woden and others of the High Council at the end of "Surface Tension" (despite their continued appearance in the First City social map) means that there's power and glory for the taking and we can be sure that there will be those willing to try...
Frankly I think that should be part of Season 11 or at least 12. Give the Federation and the Romulans exploration. Let the Romulans have a final fight against the Imperial Remnant and bring them into the fold or finish them off. Give the Klingons inter-house warfare and a civil war. For the soul of the empire. Actually Soul of the Empire would be a great name for such a season. Here it is.
Federation: To explore strange new worlds
Romulans: To Defend the Republic
Klingons: For the Soul of the Empire
Do like a Delta Recruit event with the revolutionary Klingons trying to gain ground.
You dream of a proconsul who happily gave her own people... our people - by the thousands to the Elachi monsters? Who unleashed the Hirogen hunters against our people without even blinking? Or the Tal'Shiar? Who was, in essence, responsible for destruction of the Hearthworlds and the deaths of nearly Five. Billion. Of her own people. Of our people?
These are not dreams - those are nightmares. Elements willing, we will never see those nightmares made reality.
Have you read the Star Trek Star Charts book? It listed ch'Rihan's population at 16 billion people in 2379. The military said it would take six weeks to evacuate. They had two days? That comes out to 761,904,762 at best. So 15.3 Billion people.
Those numbers steal your breath even if you're not Romulan.
That line:
"Because you are Starfleet. That's who you are"
Was a really awesome line.
Why? I dunno, to be honest.
It's two fold.
First it's an immediate callback to L'Miren's description of us when she finally was able to rationalize why we saved her people in the past, knowing the future, which is was undeniably awesome.
Second, because she and by proxy all the Klingons were relying on us being the better people to actually maintain the peace. She as an Orion didn't want to die for stupid honor when it's perfectly reasonable to share with allies who you've fought and bled alongside.
You're talking about the man who has, without a single knife embedded in a back or a single shot fired, managed to:
Secure control of the second-largest Dyson sphere we know of
Founded one of the only meaningful Romulan governments to rise from the destruction of Romulus
Effectively rebuff efforts by the Tal Shiar and old Imperialists to undermine the young Republic
Decisively secure favor and aid from both the Federation and Klingons, effectively cementing their place as the rightful Romulan government post-Hobus
Told a Tal Shiar agent to make a f***ing appointment after she beamed right the hell into his office.
"Bend-knee" indeed.
Heck plenty of Federation observers have accused ole D'Tan of playing dirty pool on occasion. He's just as slick as his mentor, but smart enough to know he needs allies.
Why you want to lose? Because make no mistake they're getting kicked in the fantail and sent packing to their side of the transdimensional rift quick fast and in a hurry.
I was annoyed becuase its going back to the same federation that would have sold the entire quadrant to the Dominion and gone along with their plans to divide the powers of the Alpha Quadrant to avoid war.
Huh? Did I miss an episode of DS9?
That sounds like the simulation the Founders put the DS9 crew in the episode where Odo first met the Founders to see how the crew would react to such a scenario and the tried to collapse the wormhole, but that was a Dominion simulation not anything real that happened.
I've thought about that too...though what I think I would've done would be to help them at a much greater price--or an actual price, period. As far as I can tell, no conditions other than a promise of peace (without any verification or enforcement) were asked in the movie. Any help beyond a certain minimum* would be contingent upon acceptance and follow-through of said terms, which would include (among other things) a permanent end to all activities of conquest, permanent relinquishment of all claims on others' territories, and the ability to actually verify within Klingon borders that there is no re-armament or other moves towards attempting any conquest again.
*Said minimum meaning I might be willing to assist in an evacuation of Qo'noS (though any attacks either on the aid vessels or on any other foreigners' interests would endanger the continuation of that mission depending on severity of the incident) but they would lose it as a habitable world and my guess is that attempting to evacuate as opposed to reclaiming the environment is not guaranteed to save all lives even with best efforts made, and WILL entail serious infrastructure, livestock, and agricultural loss and a refugee crisis on the remaining worlds. So I would not necessarily be so callous as to stand back and let them all die without even lifting a finger, but getting the best outcome (saving Qo'noS at what is likely minimal to no casualties) would come at a price.
I realize that is not a "Federation-ideal" solution, but I don't think rebuilding an aggressive empire with no strings attached was ultimately the best choice. This route could still lead to some or most/all lives saved, but the terms attached could have knocked the Empire out of its position as a galactic superpower for a long time. "We'll save you, but we aren't showing you our soft bellies to get a knife in them now, or later down the line."
That sounds more like securing Federation dominance more than anything else. The problem with that is just because you remove the Klingons from the equation doesn't mean that Federation influence goes up. You remove a major power, a superpower and then you have a power vacuum. You think you'll be neutralizing one big threat, when you're actually just creating a bunch of tiny threats and perhaps uncorking a bigger problem down the road. It's like shattering a pane of glass. Instead of one sharp piece of glass you now have thousands of razor sharp slivers.
The Klingon Empire can be a massive pain in the TRIBBLE, but they're probably holding back a number of worse actors. And in a crisis they become extremely reliable.
Well, if certain people listened to Admiral Cartwright, we wouldn't have this problem now, would we?
We also would not have had an ally against the Dominion when they came through the wormhole. And we would've been absolutely screwed when the Breen jumped into the war and disabled all our ships with their cheap-TRIBBLE energy dampening weapon.
This reminds me of the Featured episode where Tuvok takes you to the Delta Quadrant in that new science ship I think it's "A step between stars", Captain Koren throws a tantrum and declares "I will show you what happens when a Klingon looses patience". My first thought when she did that was "I'll show you what happens when the Federation stops playing nice!" I really wanted to just stomp her face and ship into the proverbial ground just as a reminder to "Beware the nice ones!
That's nothing compared to her whining in Surface Tension though. Never thought I'd meet a Klingon spoiled brat. Where are the Captain Kruge's of the empire? Kirk did you kill the last of a dying breed?
I'm okay with this, aside from the whole "red alliance" nonsense still going on.
However, I have one crazy suggestion - how about we have those little stories and sequences in the actual game? STO kind of stagnates in things to do and we are sitting there moving sliders and playing card games, waiting for timegates and little bits of content that are more interesting than any of this are only released in blog posts, people who just play the game never get to read these, it's like "would have been nice, but..." from the developers, admitting that putting story int he game is not possible. And no, it doesn't mean new FE, it would already be sufficient to receive "Fleet News" a few times a month in the game and we can read those posts on our pads or in-game mail, marked as reports from stuff happening in the game-universe.
That's what I said, and I completely agree.
I suggested in the Journal, but would you rather they were little cutscene vignettes instead? Put them in a PADD like Sela's messages, or as video footage like Nelen Exil's communiques.
Replicators do not "create matter from energy". Replicators are transporters, "beaming" particles together to form something. Those particles have to be somewhere. Everything you replicate has to be in stock. Thus you cannot just replicate a material without having said material or it's components in the first place. Replicators aren't magic machines that make stuff appear, you still need the resources for all the stuff you replicate.
Also, replicators have strict limits of what is possible. Even industrial replicators cannot create shuttles or starships, just components and those cannot contain any form of electronic circutry,l as replicating computer chips will result in faulty equipment - everything needs to be assembled traditionally. In conclusion, no you cannot relicate Tritanium without having it, and even if you could create it from different materials the amount of energy required for this would be disproportional to mine it.
That's incorrect to a degree. A replicator can replicate from any material, but the larger the difference in the starting material and the finished material the more energy it takes. Replicators normally operate on molecular resolution meaning outright transmuting materials is probably a special setting and probably the key difference between normal replicators and industrial replicators besides just size. With an atomic resolution replicator you could create metals and minerals from other materials. Then there are transporters which operate on quantum resolution which is quarks and leptons level.
In multiple instances in series it was stated that the replicators and transporters are matter energy conversion devices and even industrial replicators are described in at least one or two canon episodes as things necessary to produce large enough pieces of machinery and equipment to achieve rebuilding of some Cardassian colony or whatever. So if you de-materialize something at an atomic level, you can reshuffle it into something else upon materialization. So you can get tritanium by converting space dust. But that's not replication, that's matter re-sequencing.
Also, replicators were mostly down on Voyager when ENERGY reserves were getting low, not cargo bay junk or raw materials, so you need to move away from ENT and TOS, maybe even some early TNG era concept of a replicator (protein resequencers/food dispensors/whatever) towards something that replicators have evolved into even during canon series and movies.
I agree there are complex devices that have to be assembled or built with more specialized equipment, probably because of raw computer core memory necessary to store such large and complex patterns, but raw metals or alloys shouldn't be an issue in 25th century anymore.
Off hand I remember the last episode of TNG when captain Picard orders Earl Grey in an alternate timeline to Encounter at farpoint. Replicator answers that beverage has not been programmed. It didn't say we are all out of tea bags in cargo bay 4 container 17. It just lacked the pattern to create it out of thin air.
To quote Gene Rodenberry, Sir, i'm afraid you don't distinguish a deflector from the shields.
You're also wrong though, replicators do not create something from nothing, they transport and reconfigure matter, hence how and why they're based on transporter technology. And that still requires a lot of energy. That still qualifies them as matter energy conversion devices as you convert a quanta of matter into energy, reconfigure it's pattern and then convert the energy back to matter.
As for the raw stock, those were carried in tanks on board the ship. But just like with the air, that raw stock is kept...in cycle. Just remember on a starship, nothing goes to waste if you smell what the Rock is cookin.
Well, if certain people listened to Admiral Cartwright, we wouldn't have this problem now, would we?
Admiral Cartwright was wrong in the way he went about it (I don't condone the assassinations and sneak attacks), but dictating stronger above-board terms to the Klingons would have been nice.
Well...Cartwright wasn't concerned about peace, he just wanted to win the war he been preparing for his entire life. Nanclus wanted the opportunity to critically weaken his empire's greatest rival. Chang wanted to be Chancellor and the opportunity to defeat the Federation.
This reminds me of the Featured episode where Tuvok takes you to the Delta Quadrant in that new science ship I think it's "A step between stars", Captain Koren throws a tantrum and declares "I will show you what happens when a Klingon looses patience". My first thought when she did that was "I'll show you what happens when the Federation stops playing nice!" I really wanted to just stomp her face and ship into the proverbial ground just as a reminder to "Beware the nice ones!
Her ranting in "Surface Tension" had me looking for the "team kill" button big time. And Sugihara's groveling...he should've reminded the Klinks that by starting the war they had helped weaken the quadrant before greater enemies just like they did with the Dominion, which is why their territory-grabbing did not exactly inspire any confidence in the truth of their words about the infiltrators. They'd done that before and been devastatingly wrong, after all!
History is not a strong suit for Klingons...literally and intentionally. Recall Gowron spent most of his time after the Klingon Civil War writing the Federation's assistance in unveiling the Romulans out of the history books. It's no wonder they can't learn from history's lessons, their leaders are more concerned with glorifying themselves than they are with sound intelligent decisions and accepting reality to make more intelligent decisions in the future.
At least KDF players now know why the Feds always get the bulk of any new ships; they don't have enough ore
I don't know that that's the reason. But what this does illustrate is the greater resilience the Federation has in terms of infrastructure and society. Which is the result when you are able to place genuine value on other things besides fighting. Now the Federation SHOULD be willing to recognize force as a tool that is necessary to use sometimes and not always back down just because there's about to be a conflict (just like the Klinks shouldn't always jump at every chance to beat someone up).
The Federation has always been infinitely more adaptable and resilient than the Klingon Empire. Cooperation is a founding principle. When the Federation expands it's through diplomacy and voluntary acceptance. As a result they aren't destroying resources and materiel like an empire that expands through conquest.
Since the Federation isn't an economy that exists to support a war machine, but an economy unto itself it actually has a diversity of resources.
Ironically considering their inspiration, the Klingons are very similar to the Roman Empire. They started to decline once they couldn't conquer anything else and their supply lines became too long. I imagine the Klingons also have an upper limit on how big their empire can get (barring technology like transwarp).
You know, the fact that they asked an Orion female to negotiate with the Federation captain is not a position of weakness. It's one of guile, Orions are masters of seduction.
They are probably in much better condition than she let on and they simply wanted the ore without damaging a warship while they rebuild themselves.
It sounds very shrewd and cunning if you ask me.
While knowing the weaknesses of the Klingons (little scientific capacity since science doesn't bring GLORY and a precarious political system), I do think the Federation should have had a position of strength, I had missed the detail that the negotiator was an Orion. That definitely increases my sense of the Starfleet captain having been manipulated when otherwise the Federation could have had a win.
Manipulated when dealing with Orions has a specific connotation that isn't supported here. Orion female's powers of seduction are pheromonal in nature. Since she stayed on her ship, I doubt he was inhaling her Poison Ivy swag. As for the more basic female charms I would hope that a joined Trill would be above such manipulations....unless his name was Curzon of course.
That said we saw the conversation. She said, "My boss can't lose face here because he's Klingon. On the same note, we know you guys are our friends we don't actually have any beef with you but we need this Tritanium. I know it's stupid, but the empire is in a jam and there's internal politics to consider. Can you help us out?."
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
About that theory that the Klingon ships are actually out of the docks faster than the orion told us - i kinda doubt it.
After all the Q'nos got sieged a lot earlier in the war than earth, and all the troop transporters we saw were KDF vessels.
Compared to the attack on earth there weren't even Romulan or Federation NPC ships to help fight off the invasion.
The other thing is that in contrast to Q'nos Earth has the Worf-Effect in Star Trek.
Generally every time the show wants to point out that the Federation is facing a really strong adversary they make it into earth orbit without knocking out earth's defense system's first.
The reason for that is rather simple too: Without Earth, the Federation would likely collapse really fast - even the Iconians knew that (See Sphere of influence).
Q'nos on the other hand never had such a status. In fact if it wasn't for the Federation's aid Q'nos would be a goner already (Praxis)
It may not have been the direct words, but it was the subtext: they are preying on Federation acquiescence and weakness of will.
No, she was relying on our good will and good sense to prevent something stupid and unnecessary from happening because as Klingons they couldn't back down. Kindness is NOT weakness.
It depends on what price it's bought at. My problem is that kowtowing to the Klingons will lead to much worse things down the line. That "symbolic victory" could be the inspiration for something much worse later. An even split with a mutual agreement for neither party to claim "victory"...OR the alternate solution of giving that world to the Romulan Republic to administrate it as a neutral party kind of like what was done with the Solanae sphere (@guljarol inspired me on that one...her joking suggestion actually sounded like a real possibility ), would be less damaging.
Kagran and Worf definitely. I have little doubt that they aren't the only ones who would rise. But the trigger has to be internal. Speaking of Kagran he himself was hoping that mercy winning the war would be wisdom that the Klingons could benefit from, so his mind is already on it.
I honestly don't know about STO's version of Worf anymore considering that he turned his back on the Federation. He would have to prove to me that he is still worthy of trust.
I honestly either missed or completely forgot that. It is curious that Cryptic also seems to have missed that, recall there is a 29th century Klingon timeship. Of course that's not purely indicative as Andorians, Vulcans, and Caitians still make their own ships but still. On the other hand it may have been from the mirror universe so I could be wrong. That said I feel weird about Klingons joining the Federation. It'd be like making Russia a state.
Of course, this is in the context of a universe containing United Earth, where somehow nations as disparate today as the US and Russia did willingly enter into a binding political union.
And yeah, I CAN see the Klingons continuing to make their own ships once they join the Federation. Or maybe there's been an expansion in that universe as to what the "Federation design aesthetic" includes, and someone from that time would think of what we know as a Klingon warbird as part of a different Federation tradition that traces its heritage to the old Empire.
I don't think the spirit of the Prime Directive is served if we push the Klingons into a Civil War. That said, Klingons seem to have major internal conflicts once a generation anyway, so it would probably require even less effort on the part of the Federation no matter what than you've even surmised.
That's the point I'm trying to make, that it wouldn't take a Prime Directive-violating push (if we even acknowledge the PD as a concept with another quadrant superpower). Simply taking a hard line with the Klingons and refusing to accept BS from them would probably be enough to do it. That's not the same in my book as engaging in stuff like assassinations, disinformation campaigns, picking who the successor to the Chancellorship should be (yeah, looking at you, Picard), etc. If the Klingons can't handle dealing with a tough foreign policy and fall apart because of it, I don't see the Federation as being at fault for that.
Second, because she and by proxy all the Klingons were relying on us being the better people to actually maintain the peace. She as an Orion didn't want to die for stupid honor when it's perfectly reasonable to share with allies who you've fought and bled alongside.
If the Klingons really meant to break with the old ways of fighting over stupid stuff, then the captain would've done it himself and been willing to risk his own name and his own house on it, IMO, by standing up and saying openly that he was taking a true even split and directly daring his challengers on his own side to come out into the open.
That sounds more like securing Federation dominance more than anything else. The problem with that is just because you remove the Klingons from the equation doesn't mean that Federation influence goes up. You remove a major power, a superpower and then you have a power vacuum. You think you'll be neutralizing one big threat, when you're actually just creating a bunch of tiny threats and perhaps uncorking a bigger problem down the road. It's like shattering a pane of glass. Instead of one sharp piece of glass you now have thousands of razor sharp slivers.
The Klingon Empire can be a massive pain in the TRIBBLE, but they're probably holding back a number of worse actors. And in a crisis they become extremely reliable.
If we'd been talking about the old Klingons...TOS up through Undiscovered Country, I'd have no evidence to contradict you there. That said, I think the TNG/DS9 writers screwed the Klingons up royally.
I actually do not consider the Klingons in their modern incarnation to be "reliable in a crisis." To me, they have twice played lapdogs to infiltrators (first the Dominion and then the Undine/Iconians), directly contributing to the destabilization of the entire quadrant in the face of a greater enemy. To me they cause problems that all three major powers are lucky that they finally manage to claw their way back out of when the Klinks finally realize the degree to which they've screwed themselves over. Though the Klingons never take responsibility for what they've done, and blame it on the Federation. Their "honor" basically becomes a means to "play the victim."
I'm reminded of a workplace saying I've heard about the definition of "crisis management," which is to "create a crisis and then manage it."
Let's add to that horrible glory-seeking tactics like Gowron's idiotic, ship-wasting charges during the Dominion War, and Kagran's own run at the Herald Sphere. (Though at least Kagran realized after the fact how stupid that was, it still illustrates the problem nicely. He's one of the first Klingons I've seen take responsibility for himself in a LONG time.) I'm not even touching the war crimes aspect of what the Klingons do...I feel that this is sufficient evidence right here. I think that the Federation may well have have done better dealing with smaller annoyances and brushfires, than having to face these major, quadrant-wide destabilizations caused by the Klingons, that made everyone far more vulnerable to galactic-scale threats.
Well, if certain people listened to Admiral Cartwright, we wouldn't have this problem now, would we?
Admiral Cartwright was wrong in the way he went about it (I don't condone the assassinations and sneak attacks), but dictating stronger above-board terms to the Klingons would have been nice.
Well...Cartwright wasn't concerned about peace, he just wanted to win the war he been preparing for his entire life. Nanclus wanted the opportunity to critically weaken his empire's greatest rival. Chang wanted to be Chancellor and the opportunity to defeat the Federation.[/quote]
Hence why I specified I would've rather seen the Federation openly dictate stronger terms. Even with doing so, there might not have had to be a war...but Cardassia
History is not a strong suit for Klingons...literally and intentionally. Recall Gowron spent most of his time after the Klingon Civil War writing the Federation's assistance in unveiling the Romulans out of the history books. It's no wonder they can't learn from history's lessons, their leaders are more concerned with glorifying themselves than they are with sound intelligent decisions and accepting reality to make more intelligent decisions in the future.
And here's the crazy part...when you look at General Chang in the Klingon Academy video game, it is incredibly striking: as insane as he was, he and Gorkon both were among the last who COULD look at history. You hear Chang in that game specifically warn against and punish individual glory-seeking. Words you would never hear from a Klingon past that era.
Though it is strictly headcanon, I like to think of Gorkon and Chang as the last of the Klingon Thought Admirals along the lines of what we see in the Ford/FASA continuity. All sense in the Klingon Empire seems to have faded with that generation.
The Federation has always been infinitely more adaptable and resilient than the Klingon Empire. Cooperation is a founding principle. When the Federation expands it's through diplomacy and voluntary acceptance. As a result they aren't destroying resources and materiel like an empire that expands through conquest.
Since the Federation isn't an economy that exists to support a war machine, but an economy unto itself it actually has a diversity of resources.
Ironically considering their inspiration, the Klingons are very similar to the Roman Empire. They started to decline once they couldn't conquer anything else and their supply lines became too long. I imagine the Klingons also have an upper limit on how big their empire can get (barring technology like transwarp).
Given that their economy, infrastructure, and technology are not as resilient, I think that even with transwarp any far-flung conquests would be at risk. A transwarp hub, similar to the Bajoran Wormhole, represents a bottleneck that is comparatively easy to target and destroy. Take it out and you've catastrophically lengthened supply lines to the destination area in the blink of an eye.
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Unfortunately it seems too many people on the Fed side would start a war over a kilogram. A SINGLE KILOGRAM. This while a well restrained captain, who doesn't want a war, who might even go 50/50, but knows if the result is not satisfactory, he dies and is replaced with someone who is not as reasonable. Klingon culture can change and is in fact doing so. As evidenced by Worf, Kagran, even J'mpok who used the Undine threat as the pretext for war has changed. I suppose if you take away the dishonorable company he's used to, among them being B'vat and Torg, and add a few more honorable types such as the Klingon characters some of us play, he is not beyond redemption. I modeled my own toon to be the type of new age Klingon. He soaked in K'mtar's words in the white desert of Rura Penthe and decided the ideals wouldn't die as quickly as the one who spoke them did. He also found in the fires of Grethor, battling the Fek'ihri, the importance of choosing who to fight and who to try peace with. The same Klingon that previously didn't hesitate to suggest striking Earth, later didn't hesitate saving it. It's a shame that the dialog options are limited to reluctant and more reluctant when Tuvok asks the Klingon toon to save Earth from the Undine. I would have said "It would be an honor to join you in battle Tuvok. And it will be glorious" If someone really is looking for a Gorkon/Martok type, they found quite a few. If by Gorkon/Martok type, they instead look for a career capitulationist, they can keep looking elsewhere.
Even with the change, as slow as it is, I wonder about all the Fed snobbery going on around here. If I were such a type, I'd say to hell with Daniel's foretelling of the inclusion of the Klingons in the Federation. Let's pack a dozen or so Genesis torpedoes to detonate Qo'nos and colony worlds, leaving the Empire in ruin instead. Problem solved.
And that comparison to Poland and TRIBBLE Germany was uncalled for. Poland was an entire country and should never have been allowed to be surrendered. War over a mere kilogram, is just unbefitting of a Starfleet officer.
[edited: I no longer have the opinion I previously put here] I'm less than thrilled about this "tale" and how it is so easily found to be further evidence that the Klingons must either bow their heads to the point of tasting and breathing dirt to the Federation or be exterminated.
Unfortunately it seems too many people on the Fed side would start a war over a kilogram. A SINGLE KILOGRAM.
Yes, because getting annoyed at Federation folding to the Klingons AGAIN becuase otherwise they'll keep acting like petulant children and murder them and their citizens becuase their egos demand it is the same thing as wanting a war instead of just wanting the Klingon to grow the frack up.
Unfortunately it seems too many people on the Fed side would start a war over a kilogram. A SINGLE KILOGRAM.
Yes, because getting annoyed at Federation folding to the Klingons AGAIN becuase otherwise they'll keep acting like petulant children and murder them and their citizens becuase their egos demand it is the same thing as wanting a war instead of just wanting the Klingon to grow the frack up.
This is the problem right here: it's not just the "one kilogram." It's the political damage caused by passively allowing a Klingon "victory claim," and the further abuses it could lead to. It's that claim that is the problem. With an established track record of quadrant destabilizingly bad behavior by the Klingons, it is high time for the Federation to take a stand against it. And, for that matter, for that Klingon captain to risk his neck if he actually agrees this is a needless fight. If his convictions are strong enough, they should be worth risking his life if his Klingon values mean anything.
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I wish these great "Blog Episodes" were available for review/re-read as some sort of "Lore Dump".
AFAIK, there's no official place where these are collected, sooo this is the closest I can get for ya (and anyone else who is interested but maybe missed one or two) X)
About that theory that the Klingon ships are actually out of the docks faster than the orion told us - i kinda doubt it.
After all the Q'nos got sieged a lot earlier in the war than earth, and all the troop transporters we saw were KDF vessels.
Compared to the attack on earth there weren't even Romulan or Federation NPC ships to help fight off the invasion.
Read it again. She said.
“They have begun to wonder why our ships sit in drydock while Starfleet’s ships are repaired. They worry that we are falling behind the other powers, that we will become easy pickings.”
She said, that the Klingons were having problems getting their ships back in the field as fast.
The other thing is that in contrast to Q'nos Earth has the Worf-Effect in Star Trek.
Generally every time the show wants to point out that the Federation is facing a really strong adversary they make it into earth orbit without knocking out earth's defense system's first.
The reason for that is rather simple too: Without Earth, the Federation would likely collapse really fast - even the Iconians knew that (See Sphere of influence).
Q'nos on the other hand never had such a status. In fact if it wasn't for the Federation's aid Q'nos would be a goner already (Praxis)
Actually it has been portrayed many times in this story and in canon that taking out Qo'nos basically checkmates the Klingons too.
That's why the Khitomer conference was so important.
I've always found it dubious the idea that eliminating Earth would be actually decapitating the Federation. The Dominion said that taking Earth was important as any resistance would form there. So in that idea the symbolic value is what's important. I'm sure that's amplified for Klingons who hold their homeworld, their honor, and their culture so sacrosanct. Having lands and property is still important, it's a feudal thing.
In Surface Tension, the Undine had an inside agent who deactivated a fair portion of the orbital defenses sabotaging the normal defenses of Earth. In Midnight it was the Iconians who can literally just appear out of nowhere and even they came in massive force. In "The Changing Face of Evil" on DS9 the Breen fleet that raided San Francisco was a suicide mission that was completely annihilated. And going back further the Borg walked through all of Starfleet's defenses because you know...Borg. Before them the Whale Probe whose signal depowered everything it came across, and before that V'Ger...which was y'know, TRIBBLE V'ger, and before that there was the Xindi Superweapon which could come from subspace corridors also appearing out of nowhere.
As a general statement Earth's defenses are very strong against conventional threats to the point that the Dominion never committed a serious force to just waltzing in, and the Klingons never considered any attack on Earth. The last non-suicidal conventional attack on Earth was the Earth-Romulan War.
No, she was relying on our good will and good sense to prevent something stupid and unnecessary from happening because as Klingons they couldn't back down. Kindness is NOT weakness.
It depends on what price it's bought at. My problem is that kowtowing to the Klingons will lead to much worse things down the line. That "symbolic victory" could be the inspiration for something much worse later. An even split with a mutual agreement for neither party to claim "victory"...OR the alternate solution of giving that world to the Romulan Republic to administrate it as a neutral party kind of like what was done with the Solanae sphere (@guljarol inspired me on that one...her joking suggestion actually sounded like a real possibility ), would be less damaging.
What worse things? Klingon culture isn't going to evolve to be MORE aggressive, I think they've reached saturation on that. They even view their marriages as battle. It's not like they're going to parade their one kilogram down the streets of the First City. He gets to put in his report that he "won" and go on with his life. Even the Orion who did the negotiations pointed out that if he did go about it the straight up way, he would've been killed for his weakness. You can't change Klingon culture over night and in addition you can't just force it to.
As for a Romulan intervention that wouldn't work. It's not like with the Solanae sphere where they were the power on hand. This appears to be well outside of the Romulan Sphere of Influence and calling them in would have them viewed as the "meddlers". No easy ways out in this one I'm afraid.
Kagran and Worf definitely. I have little doubt that they aren't the only ones who would rise. But the trigger has to be internal. Speaking of Kagran he himself was hoping that mercy winning the war would be wisdom that the Klingons could benefit from, so his mind is already on it.
I honestly don't know about STO's version of Worf anymore considering that he turned his back on the Federation. He would have to prove to me that he is still worthy of trust.
In that instance, you're the one who is wrong. Worf turned his back on the Federation because the Federation was willfully sleeping on the Undine threat. A threat which turned out to be completely accurate, up to the aforementioned sabotage of Earth's defenses during Surface Tension. So frankly you'd have to accept that as a wash. He didn't turn his back on us, we just didn't listen. Worf went where the people were actually taking action.
That said the Klingons did definitely TRIBBLE up kickstarting a war with the Federation, like I said, they suck at history on purpose.
I honestly either missed or completely forgot that. It is curious that Cryptic also seems to have missed that, recall there is a 29th century Klingon timeship. Of course that's not purely indicative as Andorians, Vulcans, and Caitians still make their own ships but still. On the other hand it may have been from the mirror universe so I could be wrong. That said I feel weird about Klingons joining the Federation. It'd be like making Russia a state.
Of course, this is in the context of a universe containing United Earth, where somehow nations as disparate today as the US and Russia did willingly enter into a binding political union.
And yeah, I CAN see the Klingons continuing to make their own ships once they join the Federation. Or maybe there's been an expansion in that universe as to what the "Federation design aesthetic" includes, and someone from that time would think of what we know as a Klingon warbird as part of a different Federation tradition that traces its heritage to the old Empire.
Well 29th century timeships are a VAST departure from what we consider classic Federation Starship design.
I don't think the spirit of the Prime Directive is served if we push the Klingons into a Civil War. That said, Klingons seem to have major internal conflicts once a generation anyway, so it would probably require even less effort on the part of the Federation no matter what than you've even surmised.
That's the point I'm trying to make, that it wouldn't take a Prime Directive-violating push (if we even acknowledge the PD as a concept with another quadrant superpower). Simply taking a hard line with the Klingons and refusing to accept BS from them would probably be enough to do it. That's not the same in my book as engaging in stuff like assassinations, disinformation campaigns, picking who the successor to the Chancellorship should be (yeah, looking at you, Picard), etc. If the Klingons can't handle dealing with a tough foreign policy and fall apart because of it, I don't see the Federation as being at fault for that.
Why are you throwing shade at Picard? He was invited and selected by K'mpec because he was honorable and impartial and he knew he had been poisoned and couldn't trust any Klingon. Frankly it's a statement on the condition of business that he had to go outside the empire. And Picard discharged the duty professionally.
Second, because she and by proxy all the Klingons were relying on us being the better people to actually maintain the peace. She as an Orion didn't want to die for stupid honor when it's perfectly reasonable to share with allies who you've fought and bled alongside.
If the Klingons really meant to break with the old ways of fighting over stupid stuff, then the captain would've done it himself and been willing to risk his own name and his own house on it, IMO, by standing up and saying openly that he was taking a true even split and directly daring his challengers on his own side to come out into the open.
Name, house, life. So you're daring this captain to be a revolutionary. Well that's fine, but that's still his decision to make. That said though I'll right a Klingon Underground storyline myself.
That sounds more like securing Federation dominance more than anything else. The problem with that is just because you remove the Klingons from the equation doesn't mean that Federation influence goes up. You remove a major power, a superpower and then you have a power vacuum. You think you'll be neutralizing one big threat, when you're actually just creating a bunch of tiny threats and perhaps uncorking a bigger problem down the road. It's like shattering a pane of glass. Instead of one sharp piece of glass you now have thousands of razor sharp slivers.
The Klingon Empire can be a massive pain in the TRIBBLE, but they're probably holding back a number of worse actors. And in a crisis they become extremely reliable.
If we'd been talking about the old Klingons...TOS up through Undiscovered Country, I'd have no evidence to contradict you there. That said, I think the TNG/DS9 writers screwed the Klingons up royally.
I actually do not consider the Klingons in their modern incarnation to be "reliable in a crisis." To me, they have twice played lapdogs to infiltrators (first the Dominion and then the Undine/Iconians), directly contributing to the destabilization of the entire quadrant in the face of a greater enemy. To me they cause problems that all three major powers are lucky that they finally manage to claw their way back out of when the Klinks finally realize the degree to which they've screwed themselves over. Though the Klingons never take responsibility for what they've done, and blame it on the Federation. Their "honor" basically becomes a means to "play the victim."
I'm reminded of a workplace saying I've heard about the definition of "crisis management," which is to "create a crisis and then manage it."
Let's add to that horrible glory-seeking tactics like Gowron's idiotic, ship-wasting charges during the Dominion War, and Kagran's own run at the Herald Sphere. (Though at least Kagran realized after the fact how stupid that was, it still illustrates the problem nicely. He's one of the first Klingons I've seen take responsibility for himself in a LONG time.) I'm not even touching the war crimes aspect of what the Klingons do...I feel that this is sufficient evidence right here. I think that the Federation may well have have done better dealing with smaller annoyances and brushfires, than having to face these major, quadrant-wide destabilizations caused by the Klingons, that made everyone far more vulnerable to galactic-scale threats.
Keep in mind in the STO timeline we also played lapdogs to infiltrators a few times.
That said the Klingons have certainly had a problem. Ezri's illness diagnosis when Gowron took over running the war is superb.
"I think that the situation with Gowron is a symptom of a bigger problem. The Klingon Empire is dying, and I think it deserves to die."
"You're right. I do not like it!"
Let's be clear here, the Federation and the Klingons have not liked each other since before the Federation was born. Even Archer got TRIBBLE for taking a Klingon home in a bad situation.
Frankly we're not the Klingon's parents. It's not our job to discipline. But you're taking the long way around to the real question.
Are the Klingons worth putting up with? Which I'm sure has been an open debate in Starfleet for two centuries at least.
You're remembering the bad things the Klingons have done, but you're ignoring the positive contributions. The fact is that without the Klingons, we lose the Dominion War, period. I didn't need Krenim temporal simulations to tell me that. We would've straight up lost to the Dominion without them.
And the Klingons were of sufficient concern that the Iconians went out of their way to manipulate the Undine into splitting up the alliance. That speaks to their value.
Well, if certain people listened to Admiral Cartwright, we wouldn't have this problem now, would we?
Admiral Cartwright was wrong in the way he went about it (I don't condone the assassinations and sneak attacks), but dictating stronger above-board terms to the Klingons would have been nice.
Well...Cartwright wasn't concerned about peace, he just wanted to win the war he been preparing for his entire life. Nanclus wanted the opportunity to critically weaken his empire's greatest rival. Chang wanted to be Chancellor and the opportunity to defeat the Federation.
Hence why I specified I would've rather seen the Federation openly dictate stronger terms. Even with doing so, there might not have had to be a war...but Cardassia [/quote]
Well keep in mind it wasn't just Admiral Not Ben Sisko's father who was involved. It was a wide ranging conspiracy. From the novel perspective apparently it was Ambassador Nanclus (a Tal Shiar operative) using telepaths to manipulate everyone. No matter who started it, ultimately it was the dying gasps of the status quo.
History is not a strong suit for Klingons...literally and intentionally. Recall Gowron spent most of his time after the Klingon Civil War writing the Federation's assistance in unveiling the Romulans out of the history books. It's no wonder they can't learn from history's lessons, their leaders are more concerned with glorifying themselves than they are with sound intelligent decisions and accepting reality to make more intelligent decisions in the future.
And here's the crazy part...when you look at General Chang in the Klingon Academy video game, it is incredibly striking: as insane as he was, he and Gorkon both were among the last who COULD look at history. You hear Chang in that game specifically warn against and punish individual glory-seeking. Words you would never hear from a Klingon past that era.
Though it is strictly headcanon, I like to think of Gorkon and Chang as the last of the Klingon Thought Admirals along the lines of what we see in the Ford/FASA continuity. All sense in the Klingon Empire seems to have faded with that generation.
Don't forget General Korrd. The whole reason he was on Nimbus III is that he was against a war with the Federation. He's also apparently K'mpec's father?
But yeah Gorkon and Chang were the Charles Xavier and Magneto of the Empire back then.
The Federation has always been infinitely more adaptable and resilient than the Klingon Empire. Cooperation is a founding principle. When the Federation expands it's through diplomacy and voluntary acceptance. As a result they aren't destroying resources and materiel like an empire that expands through conquest.
Since the Federation isn't an economy that exists to support a war machine, but an economy unto itself it actually has a diversity of resources.
Ironically considering their inspiration, the Klingons are very similar to the Roman Empire. They started to decline once they couldn't conquer anything else and their supply lines became too long. I imagine the Klingons also have an upper limit on how big their empire can get (barring technology like transwarp).
Given that their economy, infrastructure, and technology are not as resilient, I think that even with transwarp any far-flung conquests would be at risk. A transwarp hub, similar to the Bajoran Wormhole, represents a bottleneck that is comparatively easy to target and destroy. Take it out and you've catastrophically lengthened supply lines to the destination area in the blink of an eye.[/quote]
Well on that note, TW Hubs are also as strategic matter mandatorily a heavily defended location. You have to have a couple of full fleets in the area to defend them. By the same note that they were priority targets, if you lose control of them, you've given your opponent a super highway to the heart of your territory. I"m reminded of Mass Effect where the Systems Alliance built their headquarters and largest space station and fleet hub on the doorstep of the Mass Relay that leads to the Sol System.
Unfortunately it seems too many people on the Fed side would start a war over a kilogram. A SINGLE KILOGRAM. This while a well restrained captain, who doesn't want a war, who might even go 50/50, but knows if the result is not satisfactory, he dies and is replaced with someone who is not as reasonable. Klingon culture can change and is in fact doing so. As evidenced by Worf, Kagran, even J'mpok who used the Undine threat as the pretext for war has changed. I suppose if you take away the dishonorable company he's used to, among them being B'vat and Torg, and add a few more honorable types such as the Klingon characters some of us play, he is not beyond redemption. I modeled my own toon to be the type of new age Klingon. He soaked in K'mtar's words in the white desert of Rura Penthe and decided the ideals wouldn't die as quickly as the one who spoke them did. He also found in the fires of Grethor, battling the Fek'ihri, the importance of choosing who to fight and who to try peace with. The same Klingon that previously didn't hesitate to suggest striking Earth, later didn't hesitate saving it. It's a shame that the dialog options are limited to reluctant and more reluctant when Tuvok asks the Klingon toon to save Earth from the Undine. I would have said "It would be an honor to join you in battle Tuvok. And it will be glorious" If someone really is looking for a Gorkon/Martok type, they found quite a few. If by Gorkon/Martok type, they instead look for a career capitulationist, they can keep looking elsewhere.
My Klingon comes from a long line of warriors who believe in intelligence and wisdom in battle and life instead of glory seeking and conquest. A long line with a distinguished record and accolades, but no great wealth or fame. Duty is more important than glory. He's not as grim and serious as he sounds though.
And that comparison to Poland and TRIBBLE Germany was uncalled for. Poland was an entire country and should never have been allowed to be surrendered. War over a mere kilogram, is just unbefitting of a Starfleet officer. I actually liked that bit of a tale, but I'm less than thrilled it is reduced as further evidence that the Klingons must either bow their heads to the point of tasting and breathing dirt to the Federation or be exterminated.
Unfortunately it seems too many people on the Fed side would start a war over a kilogram. A SINGLE KILOGRAM.
Yes, because getting annoyed at Federation folding to the Klingons AGAIN becuase otherwise they'll keep acting like petulant children and murder them and their citizens becuase their egos demand it is the same thing as wanting a war instead of just wanting the Klingon to grow the frack up.
On that note though, the Klingon didn't power his weapons up either. In fact in the case of Captain Ka'ar "Acting" is an extremely accurate word.
Unfortunately it seems too many people on the Fed side would start a war over a kilogram. A SINGLE KILOGRAM.
Yes, because getting annoyed at Federation folding to the Klingons AGAIN becuase otherwise they'll keep acting like petulant children and murder them and their citizens becuase their egos demand it is the same thing as wanting a war instead of just wanting the Klingon to grow the frack up.
This is the problem right here: it's not just the "one kilogram." It's the political damage caused by passively allowing a Klingon "victory claim," and the further abuses it could lead to. It's that claim that is the problem. With an established track record of quadrant destabilizingly bad behavior by the Klingons, it is high time for the Federation to take a stand against it. And, for that matter, for that Klingon captain to risk his neck if he actually agrees this is a needless fight. If his convictions are strong enough, they should be worth risking his life if his Klingon values mean anything.
What political damage? I'd honestly rather take the minor political hit than deal with ANOTHER stupid war with the Klingons that could be prevented. Is one kilogram of tritanium worth the lives of the people of a Federation or Klingon colony? YES. It is.
The Klingons do need a cultural enlightenment, no doubt. They have a critical social inability to function in peace. Am I going to give them another war so that they can once again focus their energy outward because we're too proud to let them have a "hollow and contrived" minor victory? Nope. He can have his damn kilogram. We have better things to do.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
About that theory that the Klingon ships are actually out of the docks faster than the orion told us - i kinda doubt it.
After all the Q'nos got sieged a lot earlier in the war than earth, and all the troop transporters we saw were KDF vessels.
Compared to the attack on earth there weren't even Romulan or Federation NPC ships to help fight off the invasion.
Read it again. She said.
“They have begun to wonder why our ships sit in drydock while Starfleet’s ships are repaired. They worry that we are falling behind the other powers, that we will become easy pickings.”
She said, that the Klingons were having problems getting their ships back in the field as fast.
Yes and i was referring to to a theory another user posted earlier on, which stated that she just pretends that the ships are getting out slower - so I don't really see why I should re-read.
I would quote your posts captaind3 but not only are you making too much sense in your posts, there's too much in your posts. I am more than glad to see you weigh in here about this.
By "replicating working organs," are you referring to the artificial type?
As I recall, the writers failed to anticipate what we would potentially learn to do with stem cells, hence the whole "Worf wants to off himself" episode. (And Picard's artificial heart, when we may be able to grow a new one before the 21st century is out.)
All of that was deprecated by the invention of transporter magic. All you have to do is have yourself transported and overlay a data pattern of a perfectly healthy, and physically young, you. Why bother with that messy aging stuff?
Also, photoshop that data pattern and make yourself beautiful. I did!
Comments
However, I have one crazy suggestion - how about we have those little stories and sequences in the actual game? STO kind of stagnates in things to do and we are sitting there moving sliders and playing card games, waiting for timegates and little bits of content that are more interesting than any of this are only released in blog posts, people who just play the game never get to read these, it's like "would have been nice, but..." from the developers, admitting that putting story int he game is not possible. And no, it doesn't mean new FE, it would already be sufficient to receive "Fleet News" a few times a month in the game and we can read those posts on our pads or in-game mail, marked as reports from stuff happening in the game-universe.
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It wouldn't be surprising, would it? He led the Alliance to victory in a war against a superior foe - of course he'll be promoted after achieving such success.
I suspect we'll still see Captain Kagran in replays but any future encounters with him will be as General Kagran.
Replicators do not "create matter from energy". Replicators are transporters, "beaming" particles together to form something. Those particles have to be somewhere. Everything you replicate has to be in stock. Thus you cannot just replicate a material without having said material or it's components in the first place. Replicators aren't magic machines that make stuff appear, you still need the resources for all the stuff you replicate.
Also, replicators have strict limits of what is possible. Even industrial replicators cannot create shuttles or starships, just components and those cannot contain any form of electronic circutry,l as replicating computer chips will result in faulty equipment - everything needs to be assembled traditionally. In conclusion, no you cannot relicate Tritanium without having it, and even if you could create it from different materials the amount of energy required for this would be disproportional to mine it.
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Well, that - almost - escalated quickly
I never thought that the Starfleet captain would be the one to power weapons first. Starfleet, drag that Trill in for a psy-eval.
And his XO for not objecting when Cap Trox almost jumped the gun.
Sooo the Klingon losses were so severe that they had to start thinking twice before starting a fight?
Also rumors of the empire fracturing? Houses J'mpok, Duras and Martok engaged in a free-for-all?
I hope we'll see more details about the post-war political landscape
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
They are probably in much better condition than she let on and they simply wanted the ore without damaging a warship while they rebuild themselves.
It sounds very shrewd and cunning if you ask me.
Admiral Cartwright was wrong in the way he went about it (I don't condone the assassinations and sneak attacks), but dictating stronger above-board terms to the Klingons would have been nice.
Her ranting in "Surface Tension" had me looking for the "team kill" button big time. And Sugihara's groveling...he should've reminded the Klinks that by starting the war they had helped weaken the quadrant before greater enemies just like they did with the Dominion, which is why their territory-grabbing did not exactly inspire any confidence in the truth of their words about the infiltrators. They'd done that before and been devastatingly wrong, after all!
I don't know that that's the reason. But what this does illustrate is the greater resilience the Federation has in terms of infrastructure and society. Which is the result when you are able to place genuine value on other things besides fighting. Now the Federation SHOULD be willing to recognize force as a tool that is necessary to use sometimes and not always back down just because there's about to be a conflict (just like the Klinks shouldn't always jump at every chance to beat someone up).
While knowing the weaknesses of the Klingons (little scientific capacity since science doesn't bring GLORY and a precarious political system), I do think the Federation should have had a position of strength, I had missed the detail that the negotiator was an Orion. That definitely increases my sense of the Starfleet captain having been manipulated when otherwise the Federation could have had a win.
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It was also stated multiple times in Star Trek that the Federation still engages in interstellar Trade and does do stuff like Dilithium mining. So obviously there is stuff that cannot be replicated, or not replicated effectively.
There is certainly no on-screen evidence that they can replicate Tritanium. Tritanium is a fictional material and we don't know if it's a "base material", a complex alloy or a rare element.
The limits of replicator technology are primarily an element of the plot, as usual for a TV show.
This process certainly uses a lot of energy. You still need A to make B, in a simple example you need oxygen and hydrogen stored somewhere to replicate water. Where the stuff comes from is irrelevant, I think numerous times it has been mentioned that you can suck in space dust and harvest it for the resources, that's true. We have no idea, however, what Tritanium is and if that works - the mere fact that it is mined, along many other materials, should canonically point out that replicating it is not an option.
Yes, because you need a ton of energy of operate it for sure. Maybe what I said originally is technically wrong, I don't doubt the process requires a lot of energy. Still you don't use enrgy to make something appear out of nothing, you need energy to disassemble and assemble something.
It certainly is as for example Latinum is still in use which is unrepiclatable. There are still "unreplicatable materials" (probably not anymore since the crafting revamp) around and you can't get dilithium from your replicator. Canonically, replicating "computer chips" results in faulty equipment as analyzed by Data and the computer in TNG. The argument "it's the future now, so nothing applies" is not really ana rgument I'd let count. It's all speculation and in the end having a game based on a work with some kind of canon, throwing that out of the window because "it's the future now" even if some advance in technology would be logical we still follow the rules established. If not we could just trash the whole "Star Trek" thing entirely.
That doesn't say anything about how a transporter works nor does it proof your point. Why should a missing pattern be the same as being out of resources? It's something completely different. It has been made clear that a replicator needs a "pattern" or recipe of whatever you want to replicate. With it you can even replicate working organs for transplantation but enough things are unable to be replicated. Wether or not it makes sense to do so is rather irrelevant, as Star Trek-verse is not our universe and it follows whatever rules the show made up.
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As I recall, the writers failed to anticipate what we would potentially learn to do with stem cells, hence the whole "Worf wants to off himself" episode. (And Picard's artificial heart, when we may be able to grow a new one before the 21st century is out.)
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That's one of the advancements we witness on-screen (although I blame Voyagers crappy writing as well) - in TNG, replicating "genuine" organs required a special technology only found in dedicated medical facilities - living tissue, not artificial surrogates. In VOY I think it is stated that the ship's (medical) replicator can replicate living organs for transplantation, it cannot replicate a Talaxian lung for Neelix though because the computer is not familiar with Talaxians and the Talaxian nervous system is too complex to reliably be replicated. It implies, however, that human and a number of other organs can be replicated.
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Kagran and Worf definitely. I have little doubt that they aren't the only ones who would rise. But the trigger has to be internal. Speaking of Kagran he himself was hoping that mercy winning the war would be wisdom that the Klingons could benefit from, so his mind is already on it.
I honestly either missed or completely forgot that. It is curious that Cryptic also seems to have missed that, recall there is a 29th century Klingon timeship. Of course that's not purely indicative as Andorians, Vulcans, and Caitians still make their own ships but still. On the other hand it may have been from the mirror universe so I could be wrong. That said I feel weird about Klingons joining the Federation. It'd be like making Russia a state.
Definitely. After Shinzon the Romulans had been through a huge cultural upheaval, Donatra was leading a more honorable faction and forcing changes. Hobus likely vastly accelerated something that was already in progress. The death of the senate back in 2379 seemed to weaken the political restrictions. Probably why the Tal Shiar has grown so much. Without the politics, they went to the police state, which then made people more rebellious.
As for Reunification it appears that D'Tan has expanded the beliefs beyond general reintegration of Vulcans and Romulans as a species but political unity across the major powers. However Spock didn't raise no fool. D'Tan feels that the Romulans have to have their own place, their own home before they could unify with anybody. He didn't want to bring the Romulans to the table as beggars for scraps. He didn't start with just a diplomatic corps he was cruising around on a Flotilla of Romulan Warbirds and fighting off the Tal Shiar.
I don't think the spirit of the Prime Directive is served if we push the Klingons into a Civil War. That said, Klingons seem to have major internal conflicts once a generation anyway, so it would probably require even less effort on the part of the Federation no matter what than you've even surmised. Frankly I think that should be part of Season 11 or at least 12. Give the Federation and the Romulans exploration. Let the Romulans have a final fight against the Imperial Remnant and bring them into the fold or finish them off. Give the Klingons inter-house warfare and a civil war. For the soul of the empire. Actually Soul of the Empire would be a great name for such a season. Here it is.
Federation: To explore strange new worlds
Romulans: To Defend the Republic
Klingons: For the Soul of the Empire
Do like a Delta Recruit event with the revolutionary Klingons trying to gain ground.
Have you read the Star Trek Star Charts book? It listed ch'Rihan's population at 16 billion people in 2379. The military said it would take six weeks to evacuate. They had two days? That comes out to 761,904,762 at best. So 15.3 Billion people.
Those numbers steal your breath even if you're not Romulan.
It's two fold.
First it's an immediate callback to L'Miren's description of us when she finally was able to rationalize why we saved her people in the past, knowing the future, which is was undeniably awesome.
Second, because she and by proxy all the Klingons were relying on us being the better people to actually maintain the peace. She as an Orion didn't want to die for stupid honor when it's perfectly reasonable to share with allies who you've fought and bled alongside.
Heck plenty of Federation observers have accused ole D'Tan of playing dirty pool on occasion. He's just as slick as his mentor, but smart enough to know he needs allies.
Why you want to lose? Because make no mistake they're getting kicked in the fantail and sent packing to their side of the transdimensional rift quick fast and in a hurry.
Huh? Did I miss an episode of DS9?
That sounds like the simulation the Founders put the DS9 crew in the episode where Odo first met the Founders to see how the crew would react to such a scenario and the tried to collapse the wormhole, but that was a Dominion simulation not anything real that happened.
That sounds more like securing Federation dominance more than anything else. The problem with that is just because you remove the Klingons from the equation doesn't mean that Federation influence goes up. You remove a major power, a superpower and then you have a power vacuum. You think you'll be neutralizing one big threat, when you're actually just creating a bunch of tiny threats and perhaps uncorking a bigger problem down the road. It's like shattering a pane of glass. Instead of one sharp piece of glass you now have thousands of razor sharp slivers.
The Klingon Empire can be a massive pain in the TRIBBLE, but they're probably holding back a number of worse actors. And in a crisis they become extremely reliable.
We also would not have had an ally against the Dominion when they came through the wormhole. And we would've been absolutely screwed when the Breen jumped into the war and disabled all our ships with their cheap-TRIBBLE energy dampening weapon. That's nothing compared to her whining in Surface Tension though. Never thought I'd meet a Klingon spoiled brat. Where are the Captain Kruge's of the empire? Kirk did you kill the last of a dying breed? That's what I said, and I completely agree.
I suggested in the Journal, but would you rather they were little cutscene vignettes instead? Put them in a PADD like Sela's messages, or as video footage like Nelen Exil's communiques.
That's incorrect to a degree. A replicator can replicate from any material, but the larger the difference in the starting material and the finished material the more energy it takes. Replicators normally operate on molecular resolution meaning outright transmuting materials is probably a special setting and probably the key difference between normal replicators and industrial replicators besides just size. With an atomic resolution replicator you could create metals and minerals from other materials. Then there are transporters which operate on quantum resolution which is quarks and leptons level.
You're also wrong though, replicators do not create something from nothing, they transport and reconfigure matter, hence how and why they're based on transporter technology. And that still requires a lot of energy. That still qualifies them as matter energy conversion devices as you convert a quanta of matter into energy, reconfigure it's pattern and then convert the energy back to matter.
As for the raw stock, those were carried in tanks on board the ship. But just like with the air, that raw stock is kept...in cycle. Just remember on a starship, nothing goes to waste if you smell what the Rock is cookin.
Well...Cartwright wasn't concerned about peace, he just wanted to win the war he been preparing for his entire life. Nanclus wanted the opportunity to critically weaken his empire's greatest rival. Chang wanted to be Chancellor and the opportunity to defeat the Federation.
History is not a strong suit for Klingons...literally and intentionally. Recall Gowron spent most of his time after the Klingon Civil War writing the Federation's assistance in unveiling the Romulans out of the history books. It's no wonder they can't learn from history's lessons, their leaders are more concerned with glorifying themselves than they are with sound intelligent decisions and accepting reality to make more intelligent decisions in the future.
And everyone wanted to shut Koren up.
The Federation has always been infinitely more adaptable and resilient than the Klingon Empire. Cooperation is a founding principle. When the Federation expands it's through diplomacy and voluntary acceptance. As a result they aren't destroying resources and materiel like an empire that expands through conquest.
Since the Federation isn't an economy that exists to support a war machine, but an economy unto itself it actually has a diversity of resources.
Ironically considering their inspiration, the Klingons are very similar to the Roman Empire. They started to decline once they couldn't conquer anything else and their supply lines became too long. I imagine the Klingons also have an upper limit on how big their empire can get (barring technology like transwarp).
Manipulated when dealing with Orions has a specific connotation that isn't supported here. Orion female's powers of seduction are pheromonal in nature. Since she stayed on her ship, I doubt he was inhaling her Poison Ivy swag. As for the more basic female charms I would hope that a joined Trill would be above such manipulations....unless his name was Curzon of course.
That said we saw the conversation. She said, "My boss can't lose face here because he's Klingon. On the same note, we know you guys are our friends we don't actually have any beef with you but we need this Tritanium. I know it's stupid, but the empire is in a jam and there's internal politics to consider. Can you help us out?."
Stories like this are why I play all factions.
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After all the Q'nos got sieged a lot earlier in the war than earth, and all the troop transporters we saw were KDF vessels.
Compared to the attack on earth there weren't even Romulan or Federation NPC ships to help fight off the invasion.
The other thing is that in contrast to Q'nos Earth has the Worf-Effect in Star Trek.
Generally every time the show wants to point out that the Federation is facing a really strong adversary they make it into earth orbit without knocking out earth's defense system's first.
The reason for that is rather simple too: Without Earth, the Federation would likely collapse really fast - even the Iconians knew that (See Sphere of influence).
Q'nos on the other hand never had such a status. In fact if it wasn't for the Federation's aid Q'nos would be a goner already (Praxis)
It depends on what price it's bought at. My problem is that kowtowing to the Klingons will lead to much worse things down the line. That "symbolic victory" could be the inspiration for something much worse later. An even split with a mutual agreement for neither party to claim "victory"...OR the alternate solution of giving that world to the Romulan Republic to administrate it as a neutral party kind of like what was done with the Solanae sphere (@guljarol inspired me on that one...her joking suggestion actually sounded like a real possibility
I honestly don't know about STO's version of Worf anymore considering that he turned his back on the Federation. He would have to prove to me that he is still worthy of trust.
Of course, this is in the context of a universe containing United Earth, where somehow nations as disparate today as the US and Russia did willingly enter into a binding political union.
And yeah, I CAN see the Klingons continuing to make their own ships once they join the Federation. Or maybe there's been an expansion in that universe as to what the "Federation design aesthetic" includes, and someone from that time would think of what we know as a Klingon warbird as part of a different Federation tradition that traces its heritage to the old Empire.
That's the point I'm trying to make, that it wouldn't take a Prime Directive-violating push (if we even acknowledge the PD as a concept with another quadrant superpower). Simply taking a hard line with the Klingons and refusing to accept BS from them would probably be enough to do it. That's not the same in my book as engaging in stuff like assassinations, disinformation campaigns, picking who the successor to the Chancellorship should be (yeah, looking at you, Picard), etc. If the Klingons can't handle dealing with a tough foreign policy and fall apart because of it, I don't see the Federation as being at fault for that.
If the Klingons really meant to break with the old ways of fighting over stupid stuff, then the captain would've done it himself and been willing to risk his own name and his own house on it, IMO, by standing up and saying openly that he was taking a true even split and directly daring his challengers on his own side to come out into the open.
If we'd been talking about the old Klingons...TOS up through Undiscovered Country, I'd have no evidence to contradict you there. That said, I think the TNG/DS9 writers screwed the Klingons up royally.
I actually do not consider the Klingons in their modern incarnation to be "reliable in a crisis." To me, they have twice played lapdogs to infiltrators (first the Dominion and then the Undine/Iconians), directly contributing to the destabilization of the entire quadrant in the face of a greater enemy. To me they cause problems that all three major powers are lucky that they finally manage to claw their way back out of when the Klinks finally realize the degree to which they've screwed themselves over. Though the Klingons never take responsibility for what they've done, and blame it on the Federation. Their "honor" basically becomes a means to "play the victim."
I'm reminded of a workplace saying I've heard about the definition of "crisis management," which is to "create a crisis and then manage it."
Let's add to that horrible glory-seeking tactics like Gowron's idiotic, ship-wasting charges during the Dominion War, and Kagran's own run at the Herald Sphere. (Though at least Kagran realized after the fact how stupid that was, it still illustrates the problem nicely. He's one of the first Klingons I've seen take responsibility for himself in a LONG time.) I'm not even touching the war crimes aspect of what the Klingons do...I feel that this is sufficient evidence right here. I think that the Federation may well have have done better dealing with smaller annoyances and brushfires, than having to face these major, quadrant-wide destabilizations caused by the Klingons, that made everyone far more vulnerable to galactic-scale threats.
Well...Cartwright wasn't concerned about peace, he just wanted to win the war he been preparing for his entire life. Nanclus wanted the opportunity to critically weaken his empire's greatest rival. Chang wanted to be Chancellor and the opportunity to defeat the Federation.[/quote]
Hence why I specified I would've rather seen the Federation openly dictate stronger terms. Even with doing so, there might not have had to be a war...but Cardassia
And here's the crazy part...when you look at General Chang in the Klingon Academy video game, it is incredibly striking: as insane as he was, he and Gorkon both were among the last who COULD look at history. You hear Chang in that game specifically warn against and punish individual glory-seeking. Words you would never hear from a Klingon past that era.
Though it is strictly headcanon, I like to think of Gorkon and Chang as the last of the Klingon Thought Admirals along the lines of what we see in the Ford/FASA continuity. All sense in the Klingon Empire seems to have faded with that generation.
Given that their economy, infrastructure, and technology are not as resilient, I think that even with transwarp any far-flung conquests would be at risk. A transwarp hub, similar to the Bajoran Wormhole, represents a bottleneck that is comparatively easy to target and destroy. Take it out and you've catastrophically lengthened supply lines to the destination area in the blink of an eye.
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Even with the change, as slow as it is, I wonder about all the Fed snobbery going on around here. If I were such a type, I'd say to hell with Daniel's foretelling of the inclusion of the Klingons in the Federation. Let's pack a dozen or so Genesis torpedoes to detonate Qo'nos and colony worlds, leaving the Empire in ruin instead. Problem solved.
And that comparison to Poland and TRIBBLE Germany was uncalled for. Poland was an entire country and should never have been allowed to be surrendered. War over a mere kilogram, is just unbefitting of a Starfleet officer.
[edited: I no longer have the opinion I previously put here] I'm less than thrilled about this "tale" and how it is so easily found to be further evidence that the Klingons must either bow their heads to the point of tasting and breathing dirt to the Federation or be exterminated.
Yes, because getting annoyed at Federation folding to the Klingons AGAIN becuase otherwise they'll keep acting like petulant children and murder them and their citizens becuase their egos demand it is the same thing as wanting a war instead of just wanting the Klingon to grow the frack up.
This is the problem right here: it's not just the "one kilogram." It's the political damage caused by passively allowing a Klingon "victory claim," and the further abuses it could lead to. It's that claim that is the problem. With an established track record of quadrant destabilizingly bad behavior by the Klingons, it is high time for the Federation to take a stand against it. And, for that matter, for that Klingon captain to risk his neck if he actually agrees this is a needless fight. If his convictions are strong enough, they should be worth risking his life if his Klingon values mean anything.
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Word!
I wish these great "Blog Episodes" were available for review/re-read as some sort of "Lore Dump".
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
AFAIK, there's no official place where these are collected, sooo this is the closest I can get for ya (and anyone else who is interested but maybe missed one or two) X)
Tales of the War Series:
01 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9212923
02 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9214713
03 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9225343
04 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9231843
05 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9250083
06 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9309143
07 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9313843
08 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9356383
09 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9365483
10 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9413023
11 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9432773
12 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9442393
13 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9455403
14 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9466993 - no name admiral's log - player's character?
15 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9479133
16 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9487283
17 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9498443
18 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9507953
19 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9517883
20 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9526953
21 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9539163
22 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9551673
23 - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9573293
Utopia Planitia Reports:
01 - Overpressure - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9568043
02 - Yamato - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9592463
Post War Era:
01 - Token of Honor - http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9600193
Hope it'll be useful to someone
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
She said, that the Klingons were having problems getting their ships back in the field as fast.
Actually it has been portrayed many times in this story and in canon that taking out Qo'nos basically checkmates the Klingons too.
That's why the Khitomer conference was so important.
I've always found it dubious the idea that eliminating Earth would be actually decapitating the Federation. The Dominion said that taking Earth was important as any resistance would form there. So in that idea the symbolic value is what's important. I'm sure that's amplified for Klingons who hold their homeworld, their honor, and their culture so sacrosanct. Having lands and property is still important, it's a feudal thing.
In Surface Tension, the Undine had an inside agent who deactivated a fair portion of the orbital defenses sabotaging the normal defenses of Earth. In Midnight it was the Iconians who can literally just appear out of nowhere and even they came in massive force. In "The Changing Face of Evil" on DS9 the Breen fleet that raided San Francisco was a suicide mission that was completely annihilated. And going back further the Borg walked through all of Starfleet's defenses because you know...Borg. Before them the Whale Probe whose signal depowered everything it came across, and before that V'Ger...which was y'know, TRIBBLE V'ger, and before that there was the Xindi Superweapon which could come from subspace corridors also appearing out of nowhere.
As a general statement Earth's defenses are very strong against conventional threats to the point that the Dominion never committed a serious force to just waltzing in, and the Klingons never considered any attack on Earth. The last non-suicidal conventional attack on Earth was the Earth-Romulan War. What worse things? Klingon culture isn't going to evolve to be MORE aggressive, I think they've reached saturation on that. They even view their marriages as battle. It's not like they're going to parade their one kilogram down the streets of the First City. He gets to put in his report that he "won" and go on with his life. Even the Orion who did the negotiations pointed out that if he did go about it the straight up way, he would've been killed for his weakness. You can't change Klingon culture over night and in addition you can't just force it to.
As for a Romulan intervention that wouldn't work. It's not like with the Solanae sphere where they were the power on hand. This appears to be well outside of the Romulan Sphere of Influence and calling them in would have them viewed as the "meddlers". No easy ways out in this one I'm afraid.
In that instance, you're the one who is wrong. Worf turned his back on the Federation because the Federation was willfully sleeping on the Undine threat. A threat which turned out to be completely accurate, up to the aforementioned sabotage of Earth's defenses during Surface Tension. So frankly you'd have to accept that as a wash. He didn't turn his back on us, we just didn't listen. Worf went where the people were actually taking action.
That said the Klingons did definitely TRIBBLE up kickstarting a war with the Federation, like I said, they suck at history on purpose.
Well 29th century timeships are a VAST departure from what we consider classic Federation Starship design.
Why are you throwing shade at Picard? He was invited and selected by K'mpec because he was honorable and impartial and he knew he had been poisoned and couldn't trust any Klingon. Frankly it's a statement on the condition of business that he had to go outside the empire. And Picard discharged the duty professionally.
Name, house, life. So you're daring this captain to be a revolutionary. Well that's fine, but that's still his decision to make. That said though I'll right a Klingon Underground storyline myself.
Keep in mind in the STO timeline we also played lapdogs to infiltrators a few times.
That said the Klingons have certainly had a problem. Ezri's illness diagnosis when Gowron took over running the war is superb.
Let's be clear here, the Federation and the Klingons have not liked each other since before the Federation was born. Even Archer got TRIBBLE for taking a Klingon home in a bad situation.
Frankly we're not the Klingon's parents. It's not our job to discipline. But you're taking the long way around to the real question.
Are the Klingons worth putting up with? Which I'm sure has been an open debate in Starfleet for two centuries at least.
You're remembering the bad things the Klingons have done, but you're ignoring the positive contributions. The fact is that without the Klingons, we lose the Dominion War, period. I didn't need Krenim temporal simulations to tell me that. We would've straight up lost to the Dominion without them.
And the Klingons were of sufficient concern that the Iconians went out of their way to manipulate the Undine into splitting up the alliance. That speaks to their value.
Hence why I specified I would've rather seen the Federation openly dictate stronger terms. Even with doing so, there might not have had to be a war...but Cardassia [/quote]
Well keep in mind it wasn't just Admiral Not Ben Sisko's father who was involved. It was a wide ranging conspiracy. From the novel perspective apparently it was Ambassador Nanclus (a Tal Shiar operative) using telepaths to manipulate everyone. No matter who started it, ultimately it was the dying gasps of the status quo.
Don't forget General Korrd. The whole reason he was on Nimbus III is that he was against a war with the Federation. He's also apparently K'mpec's father?
But yeah Gorkon and Chang were the Charles Xavier and Magneto of the Empire back then.
Given that their economy, infrastructure, and technology are not as resilient, I think that even with transwarp any far-flung conquests would be at risk. A transwarp hub, similar to the Bajoran Wormhole, represents a bottleneck that is comparatively easy to target and destroy. Take it out and you've catastrophically lengthened supply lines to the destination area in the blink of an eye.[/quote]
Well on that note, TW Hubs are also as strategic matter mandatorily a heavily defended location. You have to have a couple of full fleets in the area to defend them. By the same note that they were priority targets, if you lose control of them, you've given your opponent a super highway to the heart of your territory. I"m reminded of Mass Effect where the Systems Alliance built their headquarters and largest space station and fleet hub on the doorstep of the Mass Relay that leads to the Sol System.
My Klingon comes from a long line of warriors who believe in intelligence and wisdom in battle and life instead of glory seeking and conquest. A long line with a distinguished record and accolades, but no great wealth or fame. Duty is more important than glory. He's not as grim and serious as he sounds though.
That's why I didn't dignify it with a response.
On that note though, the Klingon didn't power his weapons up either. In fact in the case of Captain Ka'ar "Acting" is an extremely accurate word.
What political damage? I'd honestly rather take the minor political hit than deal with ANOTHER stupid war with the Klingons that could be prevented. Is one kilogram of tritanium worth the lives of the people of a Federation or Klingon colony? YES. It is.
The Klingons do need a cultural enlightenment, no doubt. They have a critical social inability to function in peace. Am I going to give them another war so that they can once again focus their energy outward because we're too proud to let them have a "hollow and contrived" minor victory? Nope. He can have his damn kilogram. We have better things to do.
Yes and i was referring to to a theory another user posted earlier on, which stated that she just pretends that the ships are getting out slower - so I don't really see why I should re-read.
Also, photoshop that data pattern and make yourself beautiful. I did!