The Federation was seeking peace talks or a cease-fire so that groundwork could be made toward a full peace summit.
J'mpok refused. "No longer will we die the death of a thousand cuts," J'mpok told the High Council. "Peace was the death of the Klingon Empire. Thankfully, it was a mistake that we caught in time."
"Conflict makes us Klingon. Combat makes us strong. I write my story with the my blade, and the ink is the blood of my enemies."
That guy, I do not trust. Now if he's learned his lesson then that's fine, but I'm skeptical.
Frankly let me take his head, I'LL put the damn cloak on Worf. That bum has been skipping out on his responsibility to lead the Empire for forty damn years.
I'm cautiously optimistic about him. When I rolled my first toon, I didn't know whether I'd want to take his orders or his head. But between throwing Torg out of the Empire, sending Ambassador Kas for peace talks in the presence of Miral Paris, and eventually ending the war, I decided he's not so bad after all, or maybe better put since then.
I found it most appropriate that the Undine threat being a convenient motivation to strike up another war with the Federation, becoming far too real and far too close to ending Qo'nos, led them to becoming back to allies where they belong. I'm glad Klingon toons didn't have too much involvement in that war, dealing instead with Tal Shiar, Devidians, and Fek'ihri. Being enemies with the Federation just don't feel right to me. This is another reason I like the Surface Tension mission.
But if J'mpok does once again become more trouble than he's worth, why not let me kill him AND take the chancellor post AND usher in a new era of what it means to be Klingon. A type of Klingon where honor is earned by deeds both in battle and in more constructive ways, not demanded at the point of a disruptor. Where the word honor is not confused with vanity.
I'm of the opinion that luck is a part of strength too. Furthermore it was still only Klingon ships that could make the modification, their unique technology allowed us to survive that phase of the war.
OK, I'll give you that one. There's a (possibly apocryphal) story about Napoleon Bonaparte that when a name was recommended to him for promotion to general, he always asked the same question: "Is he lucky?"
HA! "Is he lucky?" I'm gonna have to use that one.
Don't resort to such a pathetic argument as plot, you've got far too many good points to drag yourself down with that.
Just for the record, that comment wasn't actually part of my argument, it was a joke. Just the sheer astronomical odds that such an event could take place pretty much begs for a "will of the Force" type remark.
I'll give you that. But like the man said at the Olympics, I in fact do believe in miracles.
I'm not going to deny that the Founders are very good at what they do; they've had a minimum of 2,000 years to practice (we get conflicting numbers for the age of the Dominion in different episodes). But the onus is still on Gowron for blindly trusting one particular advisor and not fully investigating the situation on the ground before choosing his course of action. Which in all fairness is not a failing unique to Klingon leaders by any stretch, but Klingon leaders are who we're talking about here.
Changeling!Martok didn't make the decision to go to war with the Cardassians. Gowron did. Just like the Undine didn't make the decision for J'mpok to pick fights with the Gorn and Federation; per the Path to 2409, he was champing at the bit well before anybody knew the Undine were involved.
This is true, and the argument has likely been discussed among Federation cultural analysts and political pundits alike for generations now, the Klingon Empire IS ripe for this specific type of manipulation.
Gowron wasn't looking for a reason to NOT go to war. Offering some Klingons the opportunity for war is like offering free cake to humans. Some are going to be watching their diet, most are gonna jump on board.
As for the war with the Gorn, the Undine made it easy by making sure the Klingons were attacked first. That's practically giving them a war injection, as noted later in earlier posts, Klingons (as a political matter) love to have the righteous indignation of being the victims of a transgression, prior to war. Something they share with previous Romulan regimes actually. Perhaps there is a thread in the general Klingon populace that doesn't like war for war's sake that we don't hear about. The information about the Undine came after the conflict with the Gorn was well under way.
And oh if only the Nobles were so concerned about the common Klingon.
They should be. No matter whether they acknowledge it, governments have a need of their subjects no less than subjects have a need for their government. A government can only stand as long as the folks on the ground are either too happy or too scared to rebel. This is particularly true of a military dictatorship like the Cardassian Empire or the Klingon Empire: their existence is staked entirely on the perceived strength of the regime.
There was an article in The Atlantic a few months back analyzing Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine. One conclusion drawn in the print version of the article (I wish I could find it on the Internet) is that Putin doesn't want dissatisfied Russians getting the idea they can rise up and get rid of him the way the Orange Revolution threw out an unpopular Ukrainian government across the border, so he's f*cking up Ukraine and using his propaganda machine to reject reality and substitute his own.
Let's not forget here that in TOS the Klingons were supposed to represent Russia.
I know that and you know that. Klingon culture is fascinating as the current paradigm is that everyone is a warrior, is trying to be a warrior, or wants to be a warrior but can't. I think the warrior class as mastered aspirational politics to the point that it has become the default. At the same time the nobles had it locked in to the point that they were able to refuse qualified officers based on birth. I'm thinking that that status quo may have changed completely under Martok. But I'd love to see more of the civilian underpinning of the Empire and what they really think. My Klingon Doctor (Starfleet) is from the underbelly of the Klingon empire and has seen those nobles at their worst and isn't really impressed with them.
It's interesting to contrast the Klingons a Feudal society against the totalitarian Cardassians. The Cardassians and Romulans both utilized secret police heavily to control the populace...probably to a heavy cost. The Klingons haven't needed those measures. The warrior tradition is probably the difference. I'm think the class distinctions of Feudal Japan are the model to look to in that regard. Which oddly enough would make the Klingon Empire natively extremely conformist. Klingons wouldn't THINK to try and break out. It's part of their national identity.
Putin and J'mpok are very interesting characters. But I think that the real parallel for Putin isn't J'mpok...but Dukat. He's built his entire reputation on restoring his nation's perceived losses and fully believes that all the terrible TRIBBLE they did in the past is perfectly legitimate, and that the world would be a better place if they could do more. They also have a certain charm that makes them appealing to people based on the fact that they are magnificent TRIBBLE with a core of pure evil. The only difference is that Dukat is former military whereas Putin is "Obsidian Order" so to speak.
That's actually what I was referring to by the Khitomer Accords alliance using the Romulans as their bogeymen. It's an argument I've made before, I just screwed up the date this time (blame sleep deprivation). But you see my point that unless there's an external enemy both sides are worried about, the Klingons just start picking fights with the Federation instead so that they can keep from picking fights with themselves. That is not somebody I want as an ally even before you factor in their record on sentient rights, just because eventually you're going to run out of enemies to point them at.
That brings me back to B'Vat who was convinced that without that enemy to fight, that the Klingons were simply going to tear into each other til there's nothing less. Like a school of starving piranhas in a tank I imagine. Without a greater threat they start looking at their old rivalries and enemies. There is a rather sick social experiment question that begs to be answered.
What will the Klingon Empire look like after the ultimate Klingon civil war?
Will there be a period of depression and loss of identity? Will they become hard scrabble survivors more concerned with the practical matter of their next meal rather than glory and honor, not unlike the Romulans post Hobus? Or will the survivors latch on even tighter to the warrior superculture and become raiders and pirates who take what they need?
Too, he's hypocritical in another way that I didn't think of until this afternoon. He's claiming that his current claim invalidates the Federation's prior claim. Recalling recent history, J'mpok's casus belli against the Federation was to invoke old territorial claims to invalidate the Federation possession of several planets in the Hromi Cluster.
So which is it? Does current possession count or not? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
It's things like this that keep supporting the conclusion that "honor" is a completely meaningless word for most Klingons. It's nothing more than an excuse to do whatever they feel like doing: "I'm honorable, therefore anything I do is honorable, and I'm honorable for doing it."
That is hypocrisy on his leader's position definitely. But while I can't think of the specific circumstances I have a defined feeling this is hardly the first time that Klingons only apply the law when it serves their purposes. If it serves someone elses purposes the response is "WE ARE KLINGON!"
Of course even Martok, an honorable Klingon from any perspective pointed out that there's nothing more honorable than winning. That said Klingon honor and human honor are two different things. Just as M'nheisahe isn't the same as honor or morality. Different codes of ethics. Just as their are differences between Samurai and Shinobi honor systems.
Kind of gets to why I prefer the pragmatism of the Cardassians. They don't pretend to be "honorable," and they will fully admit to you that they will make their decisions situation-by-situation--that there will be occasions when even the good ones will decide that lying/deceiving, withholding information, "fighting dirty," or going back on a promise is the proper course of action. A Cardassian gul in the position of this Klingon captain would likely have no problem telling his crew, "I am fully aware of what I said before, but the circumstances on the ground have changed and our interests are best served by negotiation." With a Cardassian you know what you are getting into, you know to trust but verify just as they will be doing with you, and in a strange way, everything is on the level instead of their presenting you with a false impression that they are other than what they are.
I mean, I wrote a good-guy Cardassian who shanked a True Way terrorist in the back and without warning, that he'd caught, quite literally, in the middle of answering the call of nature. I'm sure a Klingon would not have approved of slaying someone under those particular circumstances, called it dishonorable and the whole works, but the difference was that my Legate there had his priorities straight (dead True Way, dagnabbit!), and he didn't go and torture the guy or killing someone who wasn't guilty. He was vulnerable and my Legate was not going to pass up the opportunity to off him quickly before the terrorist could commit his atrocities anywhere else. And as Garak said, stabbing him in the back *was* the safest way. Morally my Legate was the opposite of Garak (a belief in freedom and treating people right), yet he would have been similarly dismissive of an idea that he was wrong to do what he did to that terrorist. (Now, I DO acknowledge some Cardassians, such as the True Way, find that sort of torture and/or collateral damage acceptable and I do not respect those individuals at all. I only tell that story to show what a good Cardassian could look like, and that said good occurs without any code of honor.)
I'll take a Gul Macet across the table any day of the week. Cardassians have predictable wants, needs, and desires, and generally speaking a realistic viewpoint of the world around them that Klingons and even Romulans lack. Cardassians know they can't deal with a head to head war with the Federation so they'll minimize the conflict and use asymmetrical tactics to gain an advantage. But if they get caught they'll back down rather than push the issue. But the Gul that backs down isn't looking at an execution for failure later on.
My Fed Captain was raised with a shinobi warrior tradition in his family so he wouldn't really care that you stabbed the guy in the back, but rather wonder why he was taking a leak in an unsecured location without someone watching his back or without watching his own.
I don't see how he's that different from Garak who was able to grow into positions like that.
The overall problem is that people forget that Klingons are an alien culture and try to apply human standards of "honor" to their actions instead of Klingon standards.
Think about it; to a Klingon, it's perfectly honorable to use a cloaking device to sneak into enemy territory for an attack as long as they decloak before actually launching the attack so that their enemy can see their face.
To most human cultures, the idea of 'the sins of the fathers shall be visited unto the sons' has become something to be considered barbaric - in Klingon culture, re; Mogh's discommendation and Worf refusing to recognise Alexander as his son at first because then Alexander would be forced to share the "dishonor" of the House of Mogh, it's not just considered acceptable, but proper for fathers and sons to share in the "dishonor" of the other (re; Martok/changling!Martok was dishonored by Worf taking Drex's d'k tahg from him in DS9 "Way of the Warrior")
'Civilized' societies on Earth outlawed the 'Code Duello' a century or more ago, Klingons duel over any real or imagined insult, dishonor or simply to prove whom is stronger (re; TNG "The Chase", while not what we'd consider a duel, a Klingon did challenge Data to the B'aht Qul, just to see if the android was as strong as he was said to be)
Even in the STO storyline, remember, Torg and his House weren't discommendated for trying to kill the House of Martok - they were discommendated for allying themselves to the Tal Shiar and letting Romulans do their dirty work instead of doing it themselves; that is, not for their actions, but for "dishonorable" methods in their actions.
Before any of us try to say "there's no honor in this" or "that's dishonorable", we need to remember; we're thinking like humans with human honor, not Klingons with Klingon honor.
This is true, however of all the cultures in Star Trek there are few we know better than the Klingons, so in general we feel we can tease out the appropriate position in Klingon honor.
But it's certainly vastly different than from modern human morality and honor.
True Starfleet is not a force to be reckoned with. The fall of Earth would not be devestating because Starfleet is the greatest millitary force however. To the Iconians the Federation is the greatest threat to their rule. The United Federation of Planets is the ultimate embodiment of what the Iconians fear.... a unified force of well over 200 advanced planetary systems. Starfleet is also the organization who is holding the whole alliance together. The Klingons provide the primary military arm and the Romulans provide..... something I'm sure.... but Starfleet has been hard at work building alliances and fostering diplomatic conferences sometimes even between enemies. They are the most diverse and capable force in the galaxy whose centuries of explorative endevors have given them the intellegence and technology to deal with any situation so it comes as no suprise why the Federation came out on top at the end of the war. A blow to Earth would cripple the unity of the Alliance.
The irony of course is that the Federation is the one entity closest to be like the Iconians themselves originally were.
It frustrates me that Starfleet captains have yet to learn how to think like a Klingon in situations like this. It would have been easy work to give the Klingon his victory but remain in a position of power and honor. He should have been the one to propose the one kilogram deal. "It would be my greatest pleasure to fight such an esteemed and honorable warrior like yourself, but my first duty is to the Alliance between our great nations. A battle here would only serve to create further strife between my people and your Empire that would compromise us both. As a gesture of good faith I propose a joint mining operation where you would recieve one kiligram more of the total yield."
It bears mention the situation that these Starfleet officers are in.
For the past six years they have been at war, that's longer than the Dominion War. And with the losses of personnel during the early stages, Starfleet instituted new promotion guidelines to get qualified Captains into the chair faster. The same system that allowed us to go from Cadet to Fleet Admiral in 18 months. Many many Captains have never even served in Starfleet in peacetime. Look at our Captains. They graduated in 2409, meaning they entered the academy the year the war started in 2405. And there was a substantial period of increased tensions before that.
The blog high-lighted that fact. This captain, a Trill who had experienced death multiple times in this time of war, was confused as to why the Klingons weren't attacking. This isn't an officer like Picard who had 30 years of field experience in peacetime. When Captain Trox thinks like a Klingon he's thinking "how is he going to kill me?". When Picard thinks like a Klingon he thinks, "There's a resolution to this where he gets to maintain his honor without this becoming a fight." Because Picard has studied Klingon culture as a culture and not as tactical opposition research. Knowing them as a people not as an enemy. Instead he armed his weapons. Because that's what he's used to. And the Klingon didn't because he knew from what he knew about Starfleet...that they would never fire first.
The problem is that it's remarkably easy to think like a Klingon. "How can I bully this person/people/civilization into giving me what I want while claiming to be honorable?" Klingon culture from an extreme long view can be seen as something to aspire to. Honor means everything, and to be dishonest or deceitful can have the most extreme concequences. However, dig deeper and prime examples show that Klingons and their culture can be just as dirty as TNG-era Romulans.
1. Worf had to accept discommendation to 'keep the empire intact', because it's apparently incapable of hearing the truth about the Duras family. What SHOULD have happened if the Klingon Empire was truly as honorable as it claimed was that this whole act shouldn't have happened and the Duras family should have be cast out/whatever.
2. Gowron and Changling Martok claim that capturing Cardassian terrority is to prevent the Founders from taking over and using the Cardassian for themselves. What happens when the Council is revealed to be free of Changlings? Does Gowron back off from his claims and call back the fleet? No, he decides "It doesn't matter, Cardassia will be better off in Klingon control." THEN he demands to be given the Detepa Council or he'll attack DS9. So much for being honorable.
Klingons like to think of themselves as these proper warriors who know what it means to fight for family or Empire, when they're really nothing more than a bunch of bullies hiding behind an excuse. Why should the Federation Captain have accepted that? Frankly, I would've told the Klingon Captain, "Too bad, we discovered this place first. Go find another place with ore."
Klingon culture is extremely macho. "I'm a warrior, I take what I want, I don't have to negotiate, or make concessions, or beg. I'm so strong I just do what I want. I am free, and you could be free too but you're too weak. For your weakness you deserve to be subservient to me and you should be grateful for it. I'm the predator, you're the prey that's just how things are."
It reminds me of a certain world leader and a certain Presidential candidate honestly.
1. That brings up another interesting parallel. Apparently due to the extreme political and military influence the Duras have, which since it triggered a Civil War seems to be comparable to half of the Empire in strength, they are a House that is literally too big to fail, even after it was seemingly killed off. Almost a secondary royal family in scope. But if you translate the Duras into a major bank like AIG, then suddenly their importance makes sense. The Klingon Kochs maybe?
2. Even if his Changeling fear was genuine Gowron wanted a great conquest to shore up his own general political weakness. Gowron didn't have a political network like Duras. So his accomplishments have to stand on their own. He needed something big. Being proven wrong didn't matter. The fact that he expanded Klingon territory was far more important to his political presence.
No, I wouldn't have broken the Alliance. I would simply to be standing up for Federtaion, myself, and my crew. How is it bullying when I'd simply be refusing to bow down to someone? That would be up to the Klingon captain. I wouldn't fire on him first, letting him decide if he wanted to shot on a Federation ship. Imagine if the situation was reversed, how 'willing' would the Klingon have been to entertain any of this? The Klingon didn't try to claim that the Klingon's actually found the planet first, and instead merely said that because it was war, the Federation claim wasn't valid? Would that have been acceptable in the reverse?
As Ambassador K'Ehleyr said to Duras: "Don't play the wounded Klingon for me. You don't do it very well."
Klingons seem to do very well at pretending to be the victims. "We're withdrawing from the Khitomer Accords because the Federation won't support our unwarranted attack on the Cardassians."
It's an interesting note that the Klingons themselves are a "bullied" species. They say the first way you're brought into something is the way you'll always be. First contact for the Klingons was being conquered by the Hurq. The warrior poet species was conquered. They then threw off their chains beat back the Hurq and chased them into the stars. Internally they swore to never be the victim again. That they would be the conquerors and not the conquered. To the point that to this day their military is called the Klingon Defense Force. In a sad way some Klingons were never able to stop seeing themselves as the victim.
On the subject of withdrawing from the Khitomer Accords, that's not really cut and dry. To the Klingons it was a just war and the fact that their allies in the military alliance wouldn't actually back them up militarily was a problem. Then you have Starfleet defending some of their targets it's certainly a...conflict of interest. Which made it hilarious when the Cardassians allying with the Dominion and evicting them from Cardassian space like a landlord who called the military instead of the cops beat them right back into the Khitomer Accords.
I'm cautiously optimistic about him. When I rolled my first toon, I didn't know whether I'd want to take his orders or his head. But between throwing Torg out of the Empire, sending Ambassador Kas for peace talks in the presence of Miral Paris, and eventually ending the war, I decided he's not so bad after all, or maybe better put since then.
I found it most appropriate that the Undine threat being a convenient motivation to strike up another war with the Federation, becoming far too real and far too close to ending Qo'nos, led them to becoming, back to allies where they belong. I'm glad Klingon toons didn't have too much involvement in that war, dealing instead with Tal Shiar, Devidians, and Fek'ihri. Being enemies with the Federation just don't feel right to me. This is another reason I like the Surface Tension mission.
But if J'mpok does once again become more trouble than he's worth, Why not let me kill him AND take the chancellor post AND usher in a new era of what it means to be Klingon. A type of Klingon where honor is earned by deeds both in battle and in more constructive ways, not demanded at the point of a disruptor. Where the word honor is not confused with vanity.
I like your style Kyyrok.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The Cardassian gul--and I suspect the TOS Klingons as well--might have *risked* execution for not carrying out his orders to the letter but there is a difference in that he knows he wouldn't be at risk simply for not putting on a display of belligerence. A Cardassian gul knows that if he is cunning enough and is able to turn a bad situation he gets in to Cardassian advantage and with minimum waste of resources (remember that Cardassians value their lives and their survival unlike Klingons--why else would the Cardassians so revere old age if they did not aspire to get there?), then he has a chance of being evaluated on the basis of his results. Now, old Cardassia having been a police state, things were sometimes political and severely unfair so you could be executed if the Obsidian Order felt you were a threat--but the thing is that for an old-style Cardassian who fought from a position not as strong in tech or resources as his adversary, being smart was his ticket to staying alive.
To whoever brought up Putin--it infuriates me all he's done and all the opportunities he's been allowed to steal through a combination of world complacency and internal learned helplessness. I'm going to come back to Star Trek with that by saying that Garak is a good comparison. What we see now is a perfect example of why in the Trek universe I think Garak should have been executed. Yes, even with all of the "good" he did: it does not outweigh the need to hold him accountable for being an active supporter of the Order's atrocities. If I ever push my non-STO works past the Dominion War, there will be a price on Garak's head instead of his getting into the halls of political power. Garak will not be allowed to repeat history's mistakes.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Honestly... I don't think Garak wants a public position. He'd prefer to be an unnamed advisor who lurks in the shadows.
Anyways.... This sort of macho TRIBBLE is why I don't like Klingons.... Klingons would have you believe they're honest about everything, but they aren't even honest to themselves. Orions may not be immediately forthcoming about what they want, but they will eventually tell you. Also they won't do something stupid like acting like they're going to shoot you over a territorial dispute.
What we see now is a perfect example of why in the Trek universe I think Garak should have been executed. Yes, even with all of the "good" he did: it does not outweigh the need to hold him accountable for being an active supporter of the Order's atrocities.
He saved several billion lives. That more than makes up for the few inconvenienced by the Order, especially considering we don't even know what he did for the Order.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
So you would have been the captain that broke the Alliance? Over the contents of your PADD? All to try and bully the poor, beleaguered Klingon captain with a stardate and not even a proper weapon?
No, I wouldn't have broken the Alliance. I would simply to be standing up for Federtaion, myself, and my crew. How is it bullying when I'd simply be refusing to bow down to someone? That would be up to the Klingon captain. I wouldn't fire on him first, letting him decide if he wanted to shot on a Federation ship. Imagine if the situation was reversed, how 'willing' would the Klingon have been to entertain any of this? The Klingon didn't try to claim that the Klingon's actually found the planet first, and instead merely said that because it was war, the Federation claim wasn't valid? Would that have been acceptable in the reverse?
As Ambassador K'Ehleyr said to Duras: "Don't play the wounded Klingon for me. You don't do it very well."
Klingons seem to do very well at pretending to be the victims. "We're withdrawing from the Khitomer Accords because the Federation won't support our unwarrented attack on the Cardassians."
You know what the major problem here is.... Starfleet does not have a legitimate claim to the system. The Klingon got to a planet not within any known borders, there were no Starfleet ships on patrol, no Starfleet ships in the system, no mention of the system in any of the Alliance databanks, no flag planted on the rock and no insilations or settlements. The Klingon is supposed to allow Starfleet to have the rock based on their word? First come first served and unless Starfleet can substantiate their claims to the system then the rock belongs to the Klingon Empire.
Not to mention that the Klingons need that ore more then Starfleet does assuming what the Orion said was accurate. Starfleet is already operational and sending ships out to help their ally's and the Klingons have been fighting every hyper-advanced alien race non-stop for two years. The Alliance needs the Klingon Defence force out of drydock to prepare for another such invasion and considering the Klingons are just giving away their technology to help defend against the Terran Empire I'd say the Federation owes them one.
Funny you say that. J'mpok made the exact opposite argument to pick a fight with the Federation five years ago. The Federation did have people settled on the disputed planets in the Hromi Cluster and had for decades, but J'mpok said that because he had some old territorial claim that the Federation should get out. (An ultimatum that the President basically told him to stick where the sun don't shine, I might add.)
The story establishes that according to the current Klingon-Federation treaty the Federation does have a legitimate claim to the system, a fact which he is choosing to ignore because it doesn't suit him, then hiding behind his XO when he's called on his hypocrisy because he's too scared to stand up for himself.
The Klingon Empire can't have it both ways: Either current possession counts or it doesn't. And by the way, if Ka'ar's argument is that sending out a ship doesn't count as "possession", then the planet doesn't belong to him either: he doesn't have any mining colonies planted; he just got there.
And the Federation owes the Klingons nothing. Klingon "leadership" did nothing but cost lives in slavery, murder of POWs, and suicide charges and get their emperor killed.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
This current rock is not in a section of territory that has been changing hands and under dispute for centuries. Apples and oranges.
Federation Captain says that his computer told him the rock is his so it must be true and if you are gonna argue with me then I'll shoot you because 25th century starfleet policy is "We come in peace. You leave in pieces". These Starfleet captains need to learn to pick their battles especially when dealing with an ally that needs the ore more then they do.
And hey if the Federation doesn't want the super-secret and totally badass Terran TRIBBLE-kicking devices then sure good luck handling those interdimensional beardy time ships by themselves. The Empire will just pull back rebuild their ships and when the Federation is long gone the Klingons will beat back the Terran Empire themselves. Have fun with your rock of ore when under the heel of an enemy you couldn't beat because you adopted the DS9 diplomatic art of "Go F*** yourself".
Let's understand that the Klingon captain isn't disputing that the Federation already has a claim on the planet, rather he's choosing to simply ignore that claim, and saying it's irrelevant. He's acting like a spoiled brat who doesn't like what he hears. And I ASSURE you that if the Federation ship had been there first and Klingon captain said that the Klingon Empire had already claimed the planet years before, the Federation captain would have accepted those terms and either suggested a comprise like what was agreed upon or simply went to find another planet. There'd be no threat about leaving or being fired upon.
Also remember, the Federation DOESN'T know how badly the Empire might need that ore. This captain only found out when it was DIRECTLY told to him the Orion. For all the Federation knows, this is simply a power grab for more territory and power.
Essentially, this is like if the planet was a toy that the Federation had left outside on the playground for nap time and came back to find the Klingon's playing with it and refusing to give it back simply because they had it now.
This current rock is not in a section of territory that has been changing hands and under dispute for centuries. Apples and oranges.
Federation Captain says that his computer told him the rock is his so it must be true and if you are gonna argue with me then I'll shoot you because 25th century starfleet policy is "We come in peace. You leave in pieces". These Starfleet captains need to learn to pick their battles especially when dealing with an ally that needs the ore more then they do.
And hey if the Federation doesn't want the super-secret and totally badass Terran TRIBBLE-kicking devices then sure good luck handling those interdimensional beardy time ships by themselves. The Empire will just pull back rebuild their ships and when the Federation is long gone the Klingons will beat back the Terran Empire themselves. Have fun with your rock of ore when under the heel of an enemy you couldn't beat because you adopted the DS9 diplomatic art of "Go F*** yourself".
Let's understand that the Klingon captain isn't disputing that the Federation already has a claim on the planet, rather he's choosing to simply ignore that claim, and saying it's irrelevant. He's acting like a spoiled brat who doesn't like what he hears. And I ASSURE you that if the Federation ship had been there first and Klingon captain said that the Klingon Empire had already claimed the planet years before, the Federation captain would have accepted those terms and either suggested a comprise like what was agreed upon or simply went to find another planet. There'd be no threat about leaving or being fired upon.
Also remember, the Federation DOESN'T know how badly the Empire might need that ore. This captain only found out when it was DIRECTLY told to him the Orion. For all the Federation knows, this is simply a power grab for more territory and power.
Essentially, this is like if the planet was a toy that the Federation had left outside on the playground for nap time and came back to find the Klingon's playing with it and refusing to give it back simply because they had it now.
Sort of. If we're going with childish metaphors, it would be closer to a swingset that the Federation had found on the playground, but since it was naptime they decided to come back to play on the swingset later. Upon waking up, they come back and find the Klingon Empire playing on the swingset and get upset about it, asserting that they had found the swingset before naptime so the Klingon Empire had to get off their swing. The Klingon Empire, being no more mature than the Federation, stubbornly refuses since they weren't even friends back then and the Klingon Empire was already playing on the swing anyway.
Fortunately for all concerned, a teacher was nearby to suggest that they could both play on the swingset instead of crying and fighting over it. The Klingon Empire gets to feel like it won because the teacher gives it the first turn on the swing, while the Federation gets a pat on the head and feels superior for sharing the swingset that they'd found before naptime with the ill behaved Klingon Empire. Meawhile, the teacher shakes her head and hopes they can get along for five minutes without getting into an argument over the monkey bars...
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Also shame on the Federation for procrastinating. "We don't need this rock now so we are just going to leave it here and trust no one will take it when we come back whenever that may be". Starfleet did everything wrong in this situation and still wants the rock? To bad. There were a million things they could have done to properly stake their claim on the rock and they failed to do all those things. It is by the good will of the Klingon captain that they came to an agreement in the first place. They could have blasted the Federation ship on its entry into the system before its shields went up. The Klingon was the one proactive enough to have a plan and develop a proposal to the Trill. The Trill came in the system almost lamenting the fact that he wasn't warping into a battle. The Trill is looking for a fight and the Klingon came up with the diplomatic alternative. Yeah those brutish Klingons are TOTALLY in the wrong. :P.
Well, let's look. When the planet was first discovered by the Federation, they were at war with the Klingons. Perhaps they didn't have the time or resources to put into a mining operation on the planet at that time. Then they were helping out the Romulans form the Republic. THEN, they fought the Undine, Voth, Vaudwuar (spl), and Iconians. Not a lot of time to go back to each and every planet you discovered previously and do what needs to be done. Now that all the fighting is over, each faction has the time to actually do exploring and industrialization.
Second, it wasn't by the Klingon captain's good will that an agreement was formed. It was because the Federation captain refused to the leave the system like he was demanded. If he had left, the Klingon Empire would have full rights to the mining, unlike like the compromise they have now. And I'm willing to bet that the Orion approached her captain about making a deal, rather than the captian coming up with the idea himself, after seeing how determined he was to have the entire planet for the Klingon Empire.
Third, the Klingon Captain claimed they discovered the planet first. He was PROVEN wrong. Doesn't matter that it's on a PADD, there's written documentation that the Federation discovered the planet first. That's typically how exploration is done. You find a place that doesn't have anybody else, you make a note of it and if you claim it you make a note of that as well. Seems like the Federation did everything right. Ka'ar doesn't like this, because he's proven wrong. There's even mention of the a Discovery clause in the articles of the alliance. Now, we don't know what this entails, but I'm willing to bet that it makes mention that planets that are/have been discovered by one of the factions of the alliance belong to that faction. This means that Ka'ar is BREAKING the alliance already by refusing to HONOR it.
but J'mpok said that because he had some old territorial claim that the Federation should get out. (An ultimatum that the President basically told him to stick where the sun don't shine, I might add.)
The Federation has a president!? I thought Quinn did everything.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Also shame on the Federation for procrastinating. "We don't need this rock now so we are just going to leave it here and trust no one will take it when we come back whenever that may be". Starfleet did everything wrong in this situation and still wants the rock? To bad. There were a million things they could have done to properly stake their claim on the rock and they failed to do all those things. It is by the good will of the Klingon captain that they came to an agreement in the first place. They could have blasted the Federation ship on its entry into the system before its shields went up. The Klingon was the one proactive enough to have a plan and develop a proposal to the Trill. The Trill came in the system almost lamenting the fact that he wasn't warping into a battle. The Trill is looking for a fight and the Klingon came up with the diplomatic alternative. Yeah those brutish Klingons are TOTALLY in the wrong. :P.
Well, let's look. When the planet was first discovered by the Federation, they were at war with the Klingons. Perhaps they didn't have the time or resources to put into a mining operation on the planet at that time. Then they were helping out the Romulans form the Republic. THEN, they fought the Undine, Voth, Vaudwuar (spl), and Iconians. Not a lot of time to go back to each and every planet you discovered previously and do what needs to be done. Now that all the fighting is over, each faction has the time to actually do exploring and industrialization.
Second, it wasn't by the Klingon captain's good will that an agreement was formed. It was because the Federation captain refused to the leave the system like he was demanded. If he had left, the Klingon Empire would have full rights to the mining, unlike like the compromise they have now. And I'm willing to bet that the Orion approached her captain about making a deal, rather than the captian coming up with the idea himself, after seeing how determined he was to have the entire planet for the Klingon Empire.
Third, the Klingon Captain claimed they discovered the planet first. He was PROVEN wrong. Doesn't matter that it's on a PADD, there's written documentation that the Federation discovered the planet first. That's typically how exploration is done. You find a place that doesn't have anybody else, you make a note of it and if you claim it you make a note of that as well. Seems like the Federation did everything right. Ka'ar doesn't like this, because he's proven wrong. There's even mention of the a Discovery clause in the articles of the alliance. Now, we don't know what this entails, but I'm willing to bet that it makes mention that planets that are/have been discovered by one of the factions of the alliance belong to that faction. This means that Ka'ar is BREAKING the alliance already by refusing to HONOR it.
Your first and third points are the same, both based upon the contents of Trox's console: “Actually, this planet was first surveyed in,” Trox glanced down at his console,”2407 by the U.S.S. Belize. Therefore we claim the mineral rights.” That tells us when the Federation first surveyed it, rather than when anyone else had... and as you say, Ka'ar didn't bother to check stardates. Depending on where exactly Trafalax 3 is located it may have been previously surveyed by the Klingon Empire, the Dominion, Ferengi or Talaxian traders, the Romulan Star Empire, the Cardassian Union, or a Kazon sect; apparently nobody bothered to leave a nav or survey beacon in orbit. That is why Gatar suggested something more expedient than simply turning the whole mess over to the diplomatic corps... because more time wasted contemplating their consoles means a longer wait for anyone to gain access to the much-needed tritanium.
As to the second point, it wasn't by the Federation captain's good will that an agreement was formed. It was because the Klingon captain was there first and refused to leave. If he had left, the Federation would have full rights to mining, unlike the compromise they have now. *Sigh* See all we have to do is use the same statement for either captain and it's entirely true, which is why we needed Gatar to broker an agreement that allowed her captain his contrived victory and the Federation captain an excuse to feel morally superior. She played them both to get the Alliance what it needed despite the antics of the two captains involved... and a lot of second-guessing by the Admirals back home.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
I still think the Klingon was an idiot for taking such an aggressive position. He should have known that trying to bluff a Starfleet captain into leaving wasn't going to work. No need to 'insult' his intelligence when he does it first. As someone once said.... there are many kinds of intelligence, I'm not sure you have any of them.
The Cardassian gul--and I suspect the TOS Klingons as well--might have *risked* execution for not carrying out his orders to the letter but there is a difference in that he knows he wouldn't be at risk simply for not putting on a display of belligerence. A Cardassian gul knows that if he is cunning enough and is able to turn a bad situation he gets in to Cardassian advantage and with minimum waste of resources (remember that Cardassians value their lives and their survival unlike Klingons--why else would the Cardassians so revere old age if they did not aspire to get there?), then he has a chance of being evaluated on the basis of his results. Now, old Cardassia having been a police state, things were sometimes political and severely unfair so you could be executed if the Obsidian Order felt you were a threat--but the thing is that for an old-style Cardassian who fought from a position not as strong in tech or resources as his adversary, being smart was his ticket to staying alive.
That said, Cardassian politics had a very grounded basis in reality. A Cardassian Gul in a no won situation who decides that saving his crew and his ship that is hard to replace isn't going to be executed for running like a Klingon captain would.
To whoever brought up Putin--it infuriates me all he's done and all the opportunities he's been allowed to steal through a combination of world complacency and internal learned helplessness. I'm going to come back to Star Trek with that by saying that Garak is a good comparison. What we see now is a perfect example of why in the Trek universe I think Garak should have been executed. Yes, even with all of the "good" he did: it does not outweigh the need to hold him accountable for being an active supporter of the Order's atrocities. If I ever push my non-STO works past the Dominion War, there will be a price on Garak's head instead of his getting into the halls of political power. Garak will not be allowed to repeat history's mistakes.
The problem with such a position is that Garak is a unique asset. He is a member of the old order who has learned ALL the horrible lessons of why that way was wrong first hand. Everything he ever had, and everything he ever loved, was lost and destroyed to and by the way of the Obsidian Order. The deceitful path the path of Enabran Tain and Gul Dukat led to him exiled and Cardassia completely destroyed. He saw his whole family (I subscribe to Andrew Robinson's assertion that Mila was his mother) destroyed by the Dominion. His world left in ashes and ruin. Nothing the Obsidian Order did, nothing of that old brutality did one thing to save them. He got to see it from the outside and participate in a different way of doing things and see why it worked. He learned the value of true loyalty and not secret police enforced conformity. In the absence of Damar, Garak is the perfect one to usher in and protect the new order. He's seen both sides of the equation and knows the consequences better than anyone.
You know what the major problem here is.... Starfleet does not have a legitimate claim to the system. The Klingon got to a planet not within any known borders, there were no Starfleet ships on patrol, no Starfleet ships in the system, no mention of the system in any of the Alliance databanks, no flag planted on the rock and no insilations or settlements. The Klingon is supposed to allow Starfleet to have the rock based on their word? First come first served and unless Starfleet can substantiate their claims to the system then the rock belongs to the Klingon Empire.
Not to mention that the Klingons need that ore more then Starfleet does assuming what the Orion said was accurate. Starfleet is already operational and sending ships out to help their ally's and the Klingons have been fighting every hyper-advanced alien race non-stop for two years. The Alliance needs the Klingon Defence force out of drydock to prepare for another such invasion and considering the Klingons are just giving away their technology to help defend against the Terran Empire I'd say the Federation owes them one.
Legitimate claims don't work like that. In the diplomatic corps solution that they bypassed, they would verify the claims in their records (in the 25th century they do have verifiable notarized tamper proof computer records) and then move from there.
And how do you know it's not in the Alliance databanks? Unlike Trox, Ka'ar doesn't seem to have bothered checking.
That said, your argument is disproved by the report. The Klingons never bothered to dispute the claim, they clearly accepted it as legitimate once it was brought up.
As for the question of need, that's a different story. If the Klingons are that hard up for raw materials, we're talking about the Federation here. All they have to do is ask. The Federation was stretching itself then doing everything it could to help rebuild both Cardassia and help Romulan survivors, two groups that previously had been enemies with brief periods of alliance and cordiality. As opposed to Klingons who have been strong allies for the better part of the last century overall. But Klingons are too damn prideful to ever ask, or say, "we're in a tight spot here".
As for giving away technology? If we take Gatar at her word, which we have no reason not to, then the Klingons if they don't present the alliance with their special anti Fed tech, then that tech will sit in drydock since they're lacking in materiel. Furthermore it's a matter of survival for them as well. The Terrans conquered the Klingon empire in their reality, you think they're gonna ignore the Klingons in ours? It's hardly altruism.
This current rock is not in a section of territory that has been changing hands and under dispute for centuries. Apples and oranges.
Federation Captain says that his computer told him the rock is his so it must be true and if you are gonna argue with me then I'll shoot you because 25th century starfleet policy is "We come in peace. You leave in pieces". These Starfleet captains need to learn to pick their battles especially when dealing with an ally that needs the ore more then they do.
And hey if the Federation doesn't want the super-secret and totally badass Terran TRIBBLE-kicking devices then sure good luck handling those interdimensional beardy time ships by themselves. The Empire will just pull back rebuild their ships and when the Federation is long gone the Klingons will beat back the Terran Empire themselves. Have fun with your rock of ore when under the heel of an enemy you couldn't beat because you adopted the DS9 diplomatic art of "Go F*** yourself".
Let's understand that the Klingon captain isn't disputing that the Federation already has a claim on the planet, rather he's choosing to simply ignore that claim, and saying it's irrelevant. He's acting like a spoiled brat who doesn't like what he hears. And I ASSURE you that if the Federation ship had been there first and Klingon captain said that the Klingon Empire had already claimed the planet years before, the Federation captain would have accepted those terms and either suggested a comprise like what was agreed upon or simply went to find another planet. There'd be no threat about leaving or being fired upon.
Also remember, the Federation DOESN'T know how badly the Empire might need that ore. This captain only found out when it was DIRECTLY told to him the Orion. For all the Federation knows, this is simply a power grab for more territory and power.
Essentially, this is like if the planet was a toy that the Federation had left outside on the playground for nap time and came back to find the Klingon's playing with it and refusing to give it back simply because they had it now.
Also shame on the Federation for procrastinating. "We don't need this rock now so we are just going to leave it here and trust no one will take it when we come back whenever that may be". Starfleet did everything wrong in this situation and still wants the rock? To bad. There were a million things they could have done to properly stake their claim on the rock and they failed to do all those things. It is by the good will of the Klingon captain that they came to an agreement in the first place. They could have blasted the Federation ship on its entry into the system before its shields went up. The Klingon was the one proactive enough to have a plan and develop a proposal to the Trill. The Trill came in the system almost lamenting the fact that he wasn't warping into a battle. The Trill is looking for a fight and the Klingon came up with the diplomatic alternative. Yeah those brutish Klingons are TOTALLY in the wrong. :P.
That is how these things work in Space exploration. One ship makes survey and charts an area and then another specialized ship follows behind and does an in depth study. This falls under the exploration mission that was put on hold due to the three back to back wars the Federation was involved in.
In the 23rd century your Constitution class would cruise in and do an initial evaluation and then an Oberth like the Grissom would follow behind for the in depth study.
In the 24th century it was a Galaxy followed by an Intrepid or for really long surveys a Nova class. It's why science ships are science ships. Their job is to bring in the heavy scientific gear and stay on site as long as it takes to learn all that is learnable.
Take the episode Pen Pals. The Enterprise-D was in the same area for six weeks. But they were mapping the entire sector. Each individual planet in that sector would require a single starship to focus on it for months in order to properly milk it for all its data. This isn't procrastination it's the sacrifices the Federation had to make because it was at war.
And if he had blasted the Federation ship on entry to the system not only would he have sundered the alliance, but he would've started another war that according to this report, the Klingons don't have the resources to win.
The Trill has come to expect Klingons to try and kill him. Because he has already died twice in the last two years. And he's trying to make it past 365 days this time.
but J'mpok said that because he had some old territorial claim that the Federation should get out. (An ultimatum that the President basically told him to stick where the sun don't shine, I might add.)
The Federation has a president!? I thought Quinn did everything.
The President of the United Federation of Planets is named Aennik Okeg. He's a nice Saurian Gentleman, who's quick to extend the olive branch of peace but isn't afraid to stand back and let Starfleet do their job and fight the war.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
That said, Cardassian politics had a very grounded basis in reality. A Cardassian Gul in a no won situation who decides that saving his crew and his ship that is hard to replace isn't going to be executed for running like a Klingon captain would.
He possibly could be but IF that happens, it's likely because there was something political going on in the background. Something a lot more intricate than, "YOU BAD KLINGON. YOU DIE NOW. GRRAAAAHHHHH!"
To whoever brought up Putin--it infuriates me all he's done and all the opportunities he's been allowed to steal through a combination of world complacency and internal learned helplessness. I'm going to come back to Star Trek with that by saying that Garak is a good comparison. What we see now is a perfect example of why in the Trek universe I think Garak should have been executed. Yes, even with all of the "good" he did: it does not outweigh the need to hold him accountable for being an active supporter of the Order's atrocities. If I ever push my non-STO works past the Dominion War, there will be a price on Garak's head instead of his getting into the halls of political power. Garak will not be allowed to repeat history's mistakes.
The problem with such a position is that Garak is a unique asset. He is a member of the old order who has learned ALL the horrible lessons of why that way was wrong first hand. Everything he ever had, and everything he ever loved, was lost and destroyed to and by the way of the Obsidian Order. The deceitful path the path of Enabran Tain and Gul Dukat led to him exiled and Cardassia completely destroyed. He saw his whole family (I subscribe to Andrew Robinson's assertion that Mila was his mother) destroyed by the Dominion. His world left in ashes and ruin. Nothing the Obsidian Order did, nothing of that old brutality did one thing to save them. He got to see it from the outside and participate in a different way of doing things and see why it worked. He learned the value of true loyalty and not secret police enforced conformity. In the absence of Damar, Garak is the perfect one to usher in and protect the new order. He's seen both sides of the equation and knows the consequences better than anyone.
I think that you and I do not see eye to eye on whether Garak really gets it, or he's just looking out for Number One in whatever circumstances he finds himself. Me...I do not believe that he actually understands or believes that anything eh did in the past is wrong. And I think that no matter what his actions after he started helping the Federation, a clear message needs to be sent that escaping responsibility for atrocities will not be tolerated in the new Union. Yes, it would be controversial, yes, it might create outrage among hardliners, but I actually think that with the Cardassian mentality, it might be accepted.
In a related side note: I always thought the show really messed up by suggesting Shakespeare was the way for Cardassians to get to know human culture. It should have been Dostoyevsky. Remember, Raskolnikov still had to serve his time in Siberia even after he confessed to the murders he committed and began to realize he'd been wrong. There was FAR more change that needed to happen...a fundamental shift from a "superman" to a "servant" mentality, in him that only that prison sentence would even begin to effect. I see it as the same here: if Garak TRULY is sorry, let him take his punishment without protest.
The Trill has come to expect Klingons to try and kill him. Because he has already died twice in the last two years. And he's trying to make it past 365 days this time.
Yep, that is not something I would expect him to forget. It's not like he hasn't SEEN the evidence of Klingon brutality.
Coincidentally I had a similar scenario in my fanfic with a joined Trill bridge officer, who was killed in a ground battle by a sadistic Klingon who took great pleasure in stabbing near the symbiont pouch and leaving him to die slowly and in agony. (And if you think Klinks don't torture, look at the bragging that guy did on DS9 about taking a Benzite's breather and watching him suffocate.) The emergency joining that occurred after that ultimately destabilized and led to the host's death--meaning the Klink butcher destroyed two lives, not just the one he took that day on the battlefield.
You think that character, even in the next life after those two, had any reason to respect Klingons after that?
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Tamper proof my TRIBBLE. Fed computer systems are as reliable as a Dell Inspiron and your word means nothing. Anyone could have showed up and said "Uh huh! We got here first! My couputer says I did!". I want TANGILBLE evidence that Starfleet maid a claim. Hell someone might have droped a tricorder on the planet at least that would be SOMETHING to substantiate their claim. Even then when Starfleet is out exploring they are not claiming territory for the Federation. They are just kinda checking things out and learning about them. If there is something they find of use then they send ships out to do a more detailed evaluation of the find. Not every planet they survey is claimed by them. If the policy is that whoever says they made the claim gets it then its an absolutly s*** policy and it needs to be changed. From now on to avoid this kind of BS mark your territory when you find it and don't act like a chump when someone takes what you left behind because you didn't want it at the time. The blood-thirsty Trill should have been thankful he got a deal at all.
Oh and the Terran Empire would have to go through the Federation first to get to the Empire based on where they are deploying their forces. By then the Klingons will have a much larger fleet and the tech to give the Terran's an awfully big headache. The act of sharing highly advanced classified technology is no small thing. Say thank you Starfleet and stop being punks.
I think the biggest issue is that the Klingon captain DID NOT dispute the claim that the Federation discovered the planet first. There's no cry of them being wrong, or that he doesn't believe them. No declaration that the record has been tampered with. No checking of his own computer to give back conflicting reports. His response is to act like a child and declare that he doesn't care. Doesn't care that they're right. He's basically put his fingers in his ears and went "La la la. I can't hear you. I'm right you're wrong." Not very noble or honorable to me. His attitude is "Give me what I want or I'll shoot you."
And I don't blame the Trill for doing what he did. That's a PERFECTLY normal response to being told that they'll shoot his ship. Lock weapons on the opposing vessel's weapons and wait. This is something done by every captain. Including Picard, know as one of the greatest diplomats of his time. I certainly wouldn't give my 'opponent' an opportunity to shoot my vessel if I could prevent it.
You know, the fact that they asked an Orion female to negotiate with the Federation captain is not a position of weakness. It's one of guile, Orions are masters of seduction.
They are probably in much better condition than she let on and they simply wanted the ore without damaging a warship while they rebuild themselves.
It sounds very shrewd and cunning if you ask me.
It's nice to see some current lore confirming what has been the case for a while within the Klingon military. A multi-species bridge crew. I'm doubtful such a crew is unique to Ka’ar.
We finally did get a decent Klingon (species) centric story mission arc. Some we know took forever to experience. While I've always understood that not all KDF player's are pleased with multi-species Empire at all, some of us (generally speaking) have been challenging the Devs to show us this multi-species, Empire military for years. The set-up has always been here. Within the Path to 2409 lore. Just no substantive follow-up within the game. Other than a player can pick another species over that of a Klingon. Now, as others have suggested, let's get these ideas from blog into game.
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
We finally did get a decent Klingon (species) centric story mission arc. Some we know took forever to experience. While I've always understood that not all KDF player's are pleased with multi-species Empire at all, some of us (generally speaking) have been challenging the Devs to show us this multi-species, Empire military for years. The set-up has always been here. Within the Path to 2409 lore. Just no substantive follow-up within the game. Other than a player can pick another species over that of a Klingon. Now, as others have suggested, let's get these ideas from blog into game.
Agreed - it's not like there's not plenty of in-game hooks for nice Orion-centric or Gorn-centric story arcs. The death/capture of Hassan The Undying at Nimbus III would certainly have some effect on the Orion Syndicate and Orion players; and Listening Post Hephestus mentions Melani Di'an meeting with Drax at the House of Martok estates, that's something that would be interesting to follow up on... Then there's all the mentions in DOff assignment, Nimbus III in the canyon and one of the system patrols in the New Romulus area about Gorn Separtists, I know I'd enjoy seeing something done with that idea, give Gorn players a chance to (even if it has no real effect on anything) play as loyal vassals of the Klingon Empire or resistance-minded Hegemony die-hards...
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Well... you have to remember that for gameplay reasons all players are acting as loyal members of their faction.... so you can't really have people play as the Gorn resistance.
Well... you have to remember that for gameplay reasons all players are acting as loyal members of their faction.... so you can't really have people play as the Gorn resistance.
Not straight-out "Destroy all the primates" Gorn resistance, but maybe something akin to how the Romulan arc registers the differences between a Fed-allied and KDF-allied player; dialogue options, maybe Fleet Support summoning a Gorn ship instead of a Klingon one, little things that have no actual effect on gameplay, they just change the feel of the game.
Kind of like the old complaint I've heard from a lot of players; "I don't want Klingonese in the dialogue, I play a Gorn/Orion/Nausicaan/Ferasan/Lethean/etc., my character would be saying that!"
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Well... you have to remember that for gameplay reasons all players are acting as loyal members of their faction.... so you can't really have people play as the Gorn resistance.
Not straight-out "Destroy all the primates" Gorn resistance, but maybe something akin to how the Romulan arc registers the differences between a Fed-allied and KDF-allied player; dialogue options, maybe Fleet Support summoning a Gorn ship instead of a Klingon one, little things that have no actual effect on gameplay, they just change the feel of the game.
Kind of like the old complaint I've heard from a lot of players; "I don't want Klingonese in the dialogue, I play a Gorn/Orion/Nausicaan/Ferasan/Lethean/etc., my character would be saying that!"
Yeah, but while that would be nice.... it seems like a lot of work for a superficial effect.
That said, Cardassian politics had a very grounded basis in reality. A Cardassian Gul in a no won situation who decides that saving his crew and his ship that is hard to replace isn't going to be executed for running like a Klingon captain would.
He possibly could be but IF that happens, it's likely because there was something political going on in the background. Something a lot more intricate than, "YOU BAD KLINGON. YOU DIE NOW. GRRAAAAHHHHH!"
Most certainly.
The problem with such a position is that Garak is a unique asset. He is a member of the old order who has learned ALL the horrible lessons of why that way was wrong first hand. Everything he ever had, and everything he ever loved, was lost and destroyed to and by the way of the Obsidian Order. The deceitful path the path of Enabran Tain and Gul Dukat led to him exiled and Cardassia completely destroyed. He saw his whole family (I subscribe to Andrew Robinson's assertion that Mila was his mother) destroyed by the Dominion. His world left in ashes and ruin. Nothing the Obsidian Order did, nothing of that old brutality did one thing to save them. He got to see it from the outside and participate in a different way of doing things and see why it worked. He learned the value of true loyalty and not secret police enforced conformity. In the absence of Damar, Garak is the perfect one to usher in and protect the new order. He's seen both sides of the equation and knows the consequences better than anyone.
I think that you and I do not see eye to eye on whether Garak really gets it, or he's just looking out for Number One in whatever circumstances he finds himself. Me...I do not believe that he actually understands or believes that anything eh did in the past is wrong. And I think that no matter what his actions after he started helping the Federation, a clear message needs to be sent that escaping responsibility for atrocities will not be tolerated in the new Union. Yes, it would be controversial, yes, it might create outrage among hardliners, but I actually think that with the Cardassian mentality, it might be accepted.
In a related side note: I always thought the show really messed up by suggesting Shakespeare was the way for Cardassians to get to know human culture. It should have been Dostoyevsky. Remember, Raskolnikov still had to serve his time in Siberia even after he confessed to the murders he committed and began to realize he'd been wrong. There was FAR more change that needed to happen...a fundamental shift from a "superman" to a "servant" mentality, in him that only that prison sentence would even begin to effect. I see it as the same here: if Garak TRULY is sorry, let him take his punishment without protest.
Well do you consider that all criminals of the old regime should be punished? Cause the Bajorans have a request for some people with some pretty nasty records that they'd like to have a word with that the Cardassians have said a flat no to.
It's fascinating that you say that he escaped punishment. If you will recall the entire reason we first met Garak at all was that he was exiled for being a criminal in Cardassian eyes. Or at the very least making the wrong enemies. To the point where he spent the better part of a decade using his anti torture implant as a coping mechanism since he was in such a deep hell. In many ways he was punished first, and had served his time. I'm not sure how he would react to an execution. Especially not after four decades of positive service to the Cardassian Union and the rightful democratic Detapa Council.
I don't believe that making Garak some sort of subservient personality type would be any better. Nor do I believe it possible.
Yes, the Russian classics would be a better brand for relation to the Cardassians. Shakespeare isn't for everyone.
The Trill has come to expect Klingons to try and kill him. Because he has already died twice in the last two years. And he's trying to make it past 365 days this time.
Yep, that is not something I would expect him to forget. It's not like he hasn't SEEN the evidence of Klingon brutality.
Coincidentally I had a similar scenario in my fanfic with a joined Trill bridge officer, who was killed in a ground battle by a sadistic Klingon who took great pleasure in stabbing near the symbiont pouch and leaving him to die slowly and in agony. (And if you think Klinks don't torture, look at the bragging that guy did on DS9 about taking a Benzite's breather and watching him suffocate.) The emergency joining that occurred after that ultimately destabilized and led to the host's death--meaning the Klink butcher destroyed two lives, not just the one he took that day on the battlefield.
You think that character, even in the next life after those two, had any reason to respect Klingons after that?
Tamper proof my TRIBBLE. Fed computer systems are as reliable as a Dell Inspiron and your word means nothing. Anyone could have showed up and said "Uh huh! We got here first! My couputer says I did!". I want TANGILBLE evidence that Starfleet maid a claim. Hell someone might have droped a tricorder on the planet at least that would be SOMETHING to substantiate their claim. Even then when Starfleet is out exploring they are not claiming territory for the Federation. They are just kinda checking things out and learning about them. If there is something they find of use then they send ships out to do a more detailed evaluation of the find. Not every planet they survey is claimed by them. If the policy is that whoever says they made the claim gets it then its an absolutly s*** policy and it needs to be changed. From now on to avoid this kind of BS mark your territory when you find it and don't act like a chump when someone takes what you left behind because you didn't want it at the time. The blood-thirsty Trill should have been thankful he got a deal at all.
Oh and the Terran Empire would have to go through the Federation first to get to the Empire based on where they are deploying their forces. By then the Klingons will have a much larger fleet and the tech to give the Terran's an awfully big headache. The act of sharing highly advanced classified technology is no small thing. Say thank you Starfleet and stop being punks.
Your opinion is irrelevant. Every civilization in the setting uses digital record keeping. I'm sure the Federation has the equivalent of the single write isolinear rods that were used in "In the Pale Moon Light." Even in money the only physical mediums we've seen are Gold Pressed Latinum and Klingon darseks.
You complaining about the Federation saying we surveyed this first is worse than any interpretation of whining that Ka'ar might have done. And has been pointed out, the crew of the Leng didn't dispute the claim. It's likely that they had already seen the record for themselves.
No, not every planet is claimed by them. But if they got their first then they still have a legitimate claim to it. Seeing as how the Klingons hadn't done anything but orbit and scan either any claim they make is just as flimsy by your metric. As for acting like a chump, I didn't see one Starfleet Officer backing down in this meeting.
If you will recall the Klingon-Cardassian War, the Klingon Empire has a border with Cardassian space nearby the Bajor sector. Close enough to regularly interact with DS9. Furthermore in STO, enemies have no problems cruising through to the Klingon side, so no, they wouldn't be able to sit back while the Federation gets its head knocked.
A Klingon can't call us punks while worrying about us recovering our strength faster and leaving you in the dust.
I think the biggest issue is that the Klingon captain DID NOT dispute the claim that the Federation discovered the planet first. There's no cry of them being wrong, or that he doesn't believe them. No declaration that the record has been tampered with. No checking of his own computer to give back conflicting reports. His response is to act like a child and declare that he doesn't care. Doesn't care that they're right. He's basically put his fingers in his ears and went "La la la. I can't hear you. I'm right you're wrong." Not very noble or honorable to me. His attitude is "Give me what I want or I'll shoot you."
And I don't blame the Trill for doing what he did. That's a PERFECTLY normal response to being told that they'll shoot his ship. Lock weapons on the opposing vessel's weapons and wait. This is something done by every captain. Including Picard, know as one of the greatest diplomats of his time. I certainly wouldn't give my 'opponent' an opportunity to shoot my vessel if I could prevent it.
You know, the fact that they asked an Orion female to negotiate with the Federation captain is not a position of weakness. It's one of guile, Orions are masters of seduction.
They are probably in much better condition than she let on and they simply wanted the ore without damaging a warship while they rebuild themselves.
It sounds very shrewd and cunning if you ask me.
It's nice to see some current lore confirming what has been the case for a while within the Klingon military. A multi-species bridge crew. I'm doubtful such a crew is unique to Ka’ar.
We finally did get a decent Klingon (species) centric story mission arc. Some we know took forever to experience. While I've always understood that not all KDF player's are pleased with multi-species Empire at all, some of us (generally speaking) have been challenging the Devs to show us this multi-species, Empire military for years. The set-up has always been here. Within the Path to 2409 lore. Just no substantive follow-up within the game. Other than a player can pick another species over that of a Klingon. Now, as others have suggested, let's get these ideas from blog into game.
The Day of Honor introducing us to the Bortasqu's crew was a nice bit of that. An Amabassador S'Tass is always a welcome sight...and voic(sssss)e.
The choice of crew compliment is of course up to each individual captain, but I have two Klingons and neither has a monospecies crew.
We finally did get a decent Klingon (species) centric story mission arc. Some we know took forever to experience. While I've always understood that not all KDF player's are pleased with multi-species Empire at all, some of us (generally speaking) have been challenging the Devs to show us this multi-species, Empire military for years. The set-up has always been here. Within the Path to 2409 lore. Just no substantive follow-up within the game. Other than a player can pick another species over that of a Klingon. Now, as others have suggested, let's get these ideas from blog into game.
Agreed - it's not like there's not plenty of in-game hooks for nice Orion-centric or Gorn-centric story arcs. The death/capture of Hassan The Undying at Nimbus III would certainly have some effect on the Orion Syndicate and Orion players; and Listening Post Hephestus mentions Melani Di'an meeting with Drax at the House of Martok estates, that's something that would be interesting to follow up on... Then there's all the mentions in DOff assignment, Nimbus III in the canyon and one of the system patrols in the New Romulus area about Gorn Separtists, I know I'd enjoy seeing something done with that idea, give Gorn players a chance to (even if it has no real effect on anything) play as loyal vassals of the Klingon Empire or resistance-minded Hegemony die-hards...
Now that's a good point. Frankly though that's a larger symptom of the lack of extensive Klingon-centric content overall. Even if it was accessible to all factions, there could still be a storyline that is uniquely experienced from the Klingon side. Like how Wasteland on Nimbus III had an entirely different feel and perspective if you were playing through it with a Romulan just because you knew what you were up against.
Well... you have to remember that for gameplay reasons all players are acting as loyal members of their faction.... so you can't really have people play as the Gorn resistance.
Not straight-out "Destroy all the primates" Gorn resistance, but maybe something akin to how the Romulan arc registers the differences between a Fed-allied and KDF-allied player; dialogue options, maybe Fleet Support summoning a Gorn ship instead of a Klingon one, little things that have no actual effect on gameplay, they just change the feel of the game.
Kind of like the old complaint I've heard from a lot of players; "I don't want Klingonese in the dialogue, I play a Gorn/Orion/Nausicaan/Ferasan/Lethean/etc., my character would be saying that!"
Well that's certainly true, more flavor. Same as how on the Fed side, a Vulcan and an Andorian would have substantially different dialogue and responses.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Well... you have to remember that for gameplay reasons all players are acting as loyal members of their faction.... so you can't really have people play as the Gorn resistance.
Not straight-out "Destroy all the primates" Gorn resistance, but maybe something akin to how the Romulan arc registers the differences between a Fed-allied and KDF-allied player; dialogue options, maybe Fleet Support summoning a Gorn ship instead of a Klingon one, little things that have no actual effect on gameplay, they just change the feel of the game.
Kind of like the old complaint I've heard from a lot of players; "I don't want Klingonese in the dialogue, I play a Gorn/Orion/Nausicaan/Ferasan/Lethean/etc., my character would be saying that!"
Well that's certainly true, more flavor. Same as how on the Fed side, a Vulcan and an Andorian would have substantially different dialogue and responses.
I still want them to update Ancestral Sin on Vulcan. It's the same regardless of whether you're Human/Ferengi/Vulcan or ROMULAN!
also I recently played Cold Comfort as a Gorn. It was amusing that the Breen guy talked about how he doesn't talk to animals.... yeah.... ok.... talk or I rip your head off.
Well... you have to remember that for gameplay reasons all players are acting as loyal members of their faction.... so you can't really have people play as the Gorn resistance.
Not straight-out "Destroy all the primates" Gorn resistance, but maybe something akin to how the Romulan arc registers the differences between a Fed-allied and KDF-allied player; dialogue options, maybe Fleet Support summoning a Gorn ship instead of a Klingon one, little things that have no actual effect on gameplay, they just change the feel of the game.
Kind of like the old complaint I've heard from a lot of players; "I don't want Klingonese in the dialogue, I play a Gorn/Orion/Nausicaan/Ferasan/Lethean/etc., my character would be saying that!"
Well that's certainly true, more flavor. Same as how on the Fed side, a Vulcan and an Andorian would have substantially different dialogue and responses.
I still want them to update Ancestral Sin on Vulcan. It's the same regardless of whether you're Human/Ferengi/Vulcan or ROMULAN!
Or the reactions and attitudes on Bajor that are the same if you're human, Romulan, Klingon or, oh I don't know, Bajoran.
The sad thing is, they've proven they can do it; the new Fed tutorial, FED "Diplomatic Orders" (the High Priest on Vulcan gives different responses if you're Vulcan), Obisek during "Frozen" after LoR offers Remans a chance to join the Resistance (something even Romulans aren't permitted)... It's just nobody's done anything about it in most of the missions.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
I think that you and I do not see eye to eye on whether Garak really gets it, or he's just looking out for Number One in whatever circumstances he finds himself. Me...I do not believe that he actually understands or believes that anything eh did in the past is wrong. And I think that no matter what his actions after he started helping the Federation, a clear message needs to be sent that escaping responsibility for atrocities will not be tolerated in the new Union. Yes, it would be controversial, yes, it might create outrage among hardliners, but I actually think that with the Cardassian mentality, it might be accepted.
In a related side note: I always thought the show really messed up by suggesting Shakespeare was the way for Cardassians to get to know human culture. It should have been Dostoyevsky. Remember, Raskolnikov still had to serve his time in Siberia even after he confessed to the murders he committed and began to realize he'd been wrong. There was FAR more change that needed to happen...a fundamental shift from a "superman" to a "servant" mentality, in him that only that prison sentence would even begin to effect. I see it as the same here: if Garak TRULY is sorry, let him take his punishment without protest.
Well do you consider that all criminals of the old regime should be punished? Cause the Bajorans have a request for some people with some pretty nasty records that they'd like to have a word with that the Cardassians have said a flat no to.
Whether extradited or alternately, punished (as in, NOT a slap on the wrist) internally, those war criminals should be punished for their crimes.
It's fascinating that you say that he escaped punishment. If you will recall the entire reason we first met Garak at all was that he was exiled for being a criminal in Cardassian eyes. Or at the very least making the wrong enemies. To the point where he spent the better part of a decade using his anti torture implant as a coping mechanism since he was in such a deep hell. In many ways he was punished first, and had served his time. I'm not sure how he would react to an execution. Especially not after four decades of positive service to the Cardassian Union and the rightful democratic Detapa Council.
Garak simply made the wrong enemies; he didn't actually believe he was wrong, only that he got caught. He didn't actually learn anything from it other than to do a better job of watching his back. He should've been executed right after the end of the Dominion War, IMO.
I don't believe that making Garak some sort of subservient personality type would be any better. Nor do I believe it possible.
If he actually looked out for others before himself, I think that would be an improvement.
Yes, the Russian classics would be a better brand for relation to the Cardassians. Shakespeare isn't for everyone.
It worked for the Klingons, but just imagine the Cardassians watching Porfiry Porfirovich seeking that confession out of Raskolnikov. It would touch on both the similarities between Cardassian and human cultures, and the big differences...Dostoyevsky would greatly challenge the Cardassians' state ideology.
The Trill has come to expect Klingons to try and kill him. Because he has already died twice in the last two years. And he's trying to make it past 365 days this time.
Yep, that is not something I would expect him to forget. It's not like he hasn't SEEN the evidence of Klingon brutality.
Coincidentally I had a similar scenario in my fanfic with a joined Trill bridge officer, who was killed in a ground battle by a sadistic Klingon who took great pleasure in stabbing near the symbiont pouch and leaving him to die slowly and in agony. (And if you think Klinks don't torture, look at the bragging that guy did on DS9 about taking a Benzite's breather and watching him suffocate.) The emergency joining that occurred after that ultimately destabilized and led to the host's death--meaning the Klink butcher destroyed two lives, not just the one he took that day on the battlefield.
You think that character, even in the next life after those two, had any reason to respect Klingons after that?
Indeed Starfleet Psychiatric ain't that good.
Indeed, there's a point where some experiences are just so awful and so wrong that you just can't ask for a shrink to eliminate all of the effects. That's beyond human power. Well, humanoid, in the Trek universe.
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I'm cautiously optimistic about him. When I rolled my first toon, I didn't know whether I'd want to take his orders or his head. But between throwing Torg out of the Empire, sending Ambassador Kas for peace talks in the presence of Miral Paris, and eventually ending the war, I decided he's not so bad after all, or maybe better put since then.
I found it most appropriate that the Undine threat being a convenient motivation to strike up another war with the Federation, becoming far too real and far too close to ending Qo'nos, led them to becoming back to allies where they belong. I'm glad Klingon toons didn't have too much involvement in that war, dealing instead with Tal Shiar, Devidians, and Fek'ihri. Being enemies with the Federation just don't feel right to me. This is another reason I like the Surface Tension mission.
But if J'mpok does once again become more trouble than he's worth, why not let me kill him AND take the chancellor post AND usher in a new era of what it means to be Klingon. A type of Klingon where honor is earned by deeds both in battle and in more constructive ways, not demanded at the point of a disruptor. Where the word honor is not confused with vanity.
I'll give you that. But like the man said at the Olympics, I in fact do believe in miracles.
This is true, and the argument has likely been discussed among Federation cultural analysts and political pundits alike for generations now, the Klingon Empire IS ripe for this specific type of manipulation.
Gowron wasn't looking for a reason to NOT go to war. Offering some Klingons the opportunity for war is like offering free cake to humans. Some are going to be watching their diet, most are gonna jump on board.
As for the war with the Gorn, the Undine made it easy by making sure the Klingons were attacked first. That's practically giving them a war injection, as noted later in earlier posts, Klingons (as a political matter) love to have the righteous indignation of being the victims of a transgression, prior to war. Something they share with previous Romulan regimes actually. Perhaps there is a thread in the general Klingon populace that doesn't like war for war's sake that we don't hear about. The information about the Undine came after the conflict with the Gorn was well under way.
I know that and you know that. Klingon culture is fascinating as the current paradigm is that everyone is a warrior, is trying to be a warrior, or wants to be a warrior but can't. I think the warrior class as mastered aspirational politics to the point that it has become the default. At the same time the nobles had it locked in to the point that they were able to refuse qualified officers based on birth. I'm thinking that that status quo may have changed completely under Martok. But I'd love to see more of the civilian underpinning of the Empire and what they really think. My Klingon Doctor (Starfleet) is from the underbelly of the Klingon empire and has seen those nobles at their worst and isn't really impressed with them.
It's interesting to contrast the Klingons a Feudal society against the totalitarian Cardassians. The Cardassians and Romulans both utilized secret police heavily to control the populace...probably to a heavy cost. The Klingons haven't needed those measures. The warrior tradition is probably the difference. I'm think the class distinctions of Feudal Japan are the model to look to in that regard. Which oddly enough would make the Klingon Empire natively extremely conformist. Klingons wouldn't THINK to try and break out. It's part of their national identity.
Putin and J'mpok are very interesting characters. But I think that the real parallel for Putin isn't J'mpok...but Dukat. He's built his entire reputation on restoring his nation's perceived losses and fully believes that all the terrible TRIBBLE they did in the past is perfectly legitimate, and that the world would be a better place if they could do more. They also have a certain charm that makes them appealing to people based on the fact that they are magnificent TRIBBLE with a core of pure evil. The only difference is that Dukat is former military whereas Putin is "Obsidian Order" so to speak.
That brings me back to B'Vat who was convinced that without that enemy to fight, that the Klingons were simply going to tear into each other til there's nothing less. Like a school of starving piranhas in a tank I imagine. Without a greater threat they start looking at their old rivalries and enemies. There is a rather sick social experiment question that begs to be answered.
What will the Klingon Empire look like after the ultimate Klingon civil war?
Will there be a period of depression and loss of identity? Will they become hard scrabble survivors more concerned with the practical matter of their next meal rather than glory and honor, not unlike the Romulans post Hobus? Or will the survivors latch on even tighter to the warrior superculture and become raiders and pirates who take what they need?
That is hypocrisy on his leader's position definitely. But while I can't think of the specific circumstances I have a defined feeling this is hardly the first time that Klingons only apply the law when it serves their purposes. If it serves someone elses purposes the response is "WE ARE KLINGON!"
Of course even Martok, an honorable Klingon from any perspective pointed out that there's nothing more honorable than winning. That said Klingon honor and human honor are two different things. Just as M'nheisahe isn't the same as honor or morality. Different codes of ethics. Just as their are differences between Samurai and Shinobi honor systems.
I'll take a Gul Macet across the table any day of the week. Cardassians have predictable wants, needs, and desires, and generally speaking a realistic viewpoint of the world around them that Klingons and even Romulans lack. Cardassians know they can't deal with a head to head war with the Federation so they'll minimize the conflict and use asymmetrical tactics to gain an advantage. But if they get caught they'll back down rather than push the issue. But the Gul that backs down isn't looking at an execution for failure later on.
My Fed Captain was raised with a shinobi warrior tradition in his family so he wouldn't really care that you stabbed the guy in the back, but rather wonder why he was taking a leak in an unsecured location without someone watching his back or without watching his own.
I don't see how he's that different from Garak who was able to grow into positions like that.
This is true, however of all the cultures in Star Trek there are few we know better than the Klingons, so in general we feel we can tease out the appropriate position in Klingon honor.
But it's certainly vastly different than from modern human morality and honor.
The irony of course is that the Federation is the one entity closest to be like the Iconians themselves originally were.
It bears mention the situation that these Starfleet officers are in.
For the past six years they have been at war, that's longer than the Dominion War. And with the losses of personnel during the early stages, Starfleet instituted new promotion guidelines to get qualified Captains into the chair faster. The same system that allowed us to go from Cadet to Fleet Admiral in 18 months. Many many Captains have never even served in Starfleet in peacetime. Look at our Captains. They graduated in 2409, meaning they entered the academy the year the war started in 2405. And there was a substantial period of increased tensions before that.
The blog high-lighted that fact. This captain, a Trill who had experienced death multiple times in this time of war, was confused as to why the Klingons weren't attacking. This isn't an officer like Picard who had 30 years of field experience in peacetime. When Captain Trox thinks like a Klingon he's thinking "how is he going to kill me?". When Picard thinks like a Klingon he thinks, "There's a resolution to this where he gets to maintain his honor without this becoming a fight." Because Picard has studied Klingon culture as a culture and not as tactical opposition research. Knowing them as a people not as an enemy. Instead he armed his weapons. Because that's what he's used to. And the Klingon didn't because he knew from what he knew about Starfleet...that they would never fire first.
Klingon culture is extremely macho. "I'm a warrior, I take what I want, I don't have to negotiate, or make concessions, or beg. I'm so strong I just do what I want. I am free, and you could be free too but you're too weak. For your weakness you deserve to be subservient to me and you should be grateful for it. I'm the predator, you're the prey that's just how things are."
It reminds me of a certain world leader and a certain Presidential candidate honestly.
1. That brings up another interesting parallel. Apparently due to the extreme political and military influence the Duras have, which since it triggered a Civil War seems to be comparable to half of the Empire in strength, they are a House that is literally too big to fail, even after it was seemingly killed off. Almost a secondary royal family in scope. But if you translate the Duras into a major bank like AIG, then suddenly their importance makes sense. The Klingon Kochs maybe?
2. Even if his Changeling fear was genuine Gowron wanted a great conquest to shore up his own general political weakness. Gowron didn't have a political network like Duras. So his accomplishments have to stand on their own. He needed something big. Being proven wrong didn't matter. The fact that he expanded Klingon territory was far more important to his political presence.
It's an interesting note that the Klingons themselves are a "bullied" species. They say the first way you're brought into something is the way you'll always be. First contact for the Klingons was being conquered by the Hurq. The warrior poet species was conquered. They then threw off their chains beat back the Hurq and chased them into the stars. Internally they swore to never be the victim again. That they would be the conquerors and not the conquered. To the point that to this day their military is called the Klingon Defense Force. In a sad way some Klingons were never able to stop seeing themselves as the victim.
On the subject of withdrawing from the Khitomer Accords, that's not really cut and dry. To the Klingons it was a just war and the fact that their allies in the military alliance wouldn't actually back them up militarily was a problem. Then you have Starfleet defending some of their targets it's certainly a...conflict of interest. Which made it hilarious when the Cardassians allying with the Dominion and evicting them from Cardassian space like a landlord who called the military instead of the cops beat them right back into the Khitomer Accords.
I like your style Kyyrok.
To whoever brought up Putin--it infuriates me all he's done and all the opportunities he's been allowed to steal through a combination of world complacency and internal learned helplessness. I'm going to come back to Star Trek with that by saying that Garak is a good comparison. What we see now is a perfect example of why in the Trek universe I think Garak should have been executed. Yes, even with all of the "good" he did: it does not outweigh the need to hold him accountable for being an active supporter of the Order's atrocities. If I ever push my non-STO works past the Dominion War, there will be a price on Garak's head instead of his getting into the halls of political power. Garak will not be allowed to repeat history's mistakes.
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Anyways.... This sort of macho TRIBBLE is why I don't like Klingons.... Klingons would have you believe they're honest about everything, but they aren't even honest to themselves. Orions may not be immediately forthcoming about what they want, but they will eventually tell you. Also they won't do something stupid like acting like they're going to shoot you over a territorial dispute.
My character Tsin'xing
He saved several billion lives. That more than makes up for the few inconvenienced by the Order, especially considering we don't even know what he did for the Order.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Funny you say that. J'mpok made the exact opposite argument to pick a fight with the Federation five years ago. The Federation did have people settled on the disputed planets in the Hromi Cluster and had for decades, but J'mpok said that because he had some old territorial claim that the Federation should get out. (An ultimatum that the President basically told him to stick where the sun don't shine, I might add.)
The story establishes that according to the current Klingon-Federation treaty the Federation does have a legitimate claim to the system, a fact which he is choosing to ignore because it doesn't suit him, then hiding behind his XO when he's called on his hypocrisy because he's too scared to stand up for himself.
The Klingon Empire can't have it both ways: Either current possession counts or it doesn't. And by the way, if Ka'ar's argument is that sending out a ship doesn't count as "possession", then the planet doesn't belong to him either: he doesn't have any mining colonies planted; he just got there.
And the Federation owes the Klingons nothing. Klingon "leadership" did nothing but cost lives in slavery, murder of POWs, and suicide charges and get their emperor killed.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Let's understand that the Klingon captain isn't disputing that the Federation already has a claim on the planet, rather he's choosing to simply ignore that claim, and saying it's irrelevant. He's acting like a spoiled brat who doesn't like what he hears. And I ASSURE you that if the Federation ship had been there first and Klingon captain said that the Klingon Empire had already claimed the planet years before, the Federation captain would have accepted those terms and either suggested a comprise like what was agreed upon or simply went to find another planet. There'd be no threat about leaving or being fired upon.
Also remember, the Federation DOESN'T know how badly the Empire might need that ore. This captain only found out when it was DIRECTLY told to him the Orion. For all the Federation knows, this is simply a power grab for more territory and power.
Essentially, this is like if the planet was a toy that the Federation had left outside on the playground for nap time and came back to find the Klingon's playing with it and refusing to give it back simply because they had it now.
Sort of. If we're going with childish metaphors, it would be closer to a swingset that the Federation had found on the playground, but since it was naptime they decided to come back to play on the swingset later. Upon waking up, they come back and find the Klingon Empire playing on the swingset and get upset about it, asserting that they had found the swingset before naptime so the Klingon Empire had to get off their swing. The Klingon Empire, being no more mature than the Federation, stubbornly refuses since they weren't even friends back then and the Klingon Empire was already playing on the swing anyway.
Fortunately for all concerned, a teacher was nearby to suggest that they could both play on the swingset instead of crying and fighting over it. The Klingon Empire gets to feel like it won because the teacher gives it the first turn on the swing, while the Federation gets a pat on the head and feels superior for sharing the swingset that they'd found before naptime with the ill behaved Klingon Empire. Meawhile, the teacher shakes her head and hopes they can get along for five minutes without getting into an argument over the monkey bars...
Well, let's look. When the planet was first discovered by the Federation, they were at war with the Klingons. Perhaps they didn't have the time or resources to put into a mining operation on the planet at that time. Then they were helping out the Romulans form the Republic. THEN, they fought the Undine, Voth, Vaudwuar (spl), and Iconians. Not a lot of time to go back to each and every planet you discovered previously and do what needs to be done. Now that all the fighting is over, each faction has the time to actually do exploring and industrialization.
Second, it wasn't by the Klingon captain's good will that an agreement was formed. It was because the Federation captain refused to the leave the system like he was demanded. If he had left, the Klingon Empire would have full rights to the mining, unlike like the compromise they have now. And I'm willing to bet that the Orion approached her captain about making a deal, rather than the captian coming up with the idea himself, after seeing how determined he was to have the entire planet for the Klingon Empire.
Third, the Klingon Captain claimed they discovered the planet first. He was PROVEN wrong. Doesn't matter that it's on a PADD, there's written documentation that the Federation discovered the planet first. That's typically how exploration is done. You find a place that doesn't have anybody else, you make a note of it and if you claim it you make a note of that as well. Seems like the Federation did everything right. Ka'ar doesn't like this, because he's proven wrong. There's even mention of the a Discovery clause in the articles of the alliance. Now, we don't know what this entails, but I'm willing to bet that it makes mention that planets that are/have been discovered by one of the factions of the alliance belong to that faction. This means that Ka'ar is BREAKING the alliance already by refusing to HONOR it.
The Federation has a president!? I thought Quinn did everything.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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“Because you are Starfleet. That’s who you are.”......LOL
Your first and third points are the same, both based upon the contents of Trox's console: “Actually, this planet was first surveyed in,” Trox glanced down at his console,”2407 by the U.S.S. Belize. Therefore we claim the mineral rights.” That tells us when the Federation first surveyed it, rather than when anyone else had... and as you say, Ka'ar didn't bother to check stardates. Depending on where exactly Trafalax 3 is located it may have been previously surveyed by the Klingon Empire, the Dominion, Ferengi or Talaxian traders, the Romulan Star Empire, the Cardassian Union, or a Kazon sect; apparently nobody bothered to leave a nav or survey beacon in orbit. That is why Gatar suggested something more expedient than simply turning the whole mess over to the diplomatic corps... because more time wasted contemplating their consoles means a longer wait for anyone to gain access to the much-needed tritanium.
As to the second point, it wasn't by the Federation captain's good will that an agreement was formed. It was because the Klingon captain was there first and refused to leave. If he had left, the Federation would have full rights to mining, unlike the compromise they have now. *Sigh* See all we have to do is use the same statement for either captain and it's entirely true, which is why we needed Gatar to broker an agreement that allowed her captain his contrived victory and the Federation captain an excuse to feel morally superior. She played them both to get the Alliance what it needed despite the antics of the two captains involved... and a lot of second-guessing by the Admirals back home.
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The problem with such a position is that Garak is a unique asset. He is a member of the old order who has learned ALL the horrible lessons of why that way was wrong first hand. Everything he ever had, and everything he ever loved, was lost and destroyed to and by the way of the Obsidian Order. The deceitful path the path of Enabran Tain and Gul Dukat led to him exiled and Cardassia completely destroyed. He saw his whole family (I subscribe to Andrew Robinson's assertion that Mila was his mother) destroyed by the Dominion. His world left in ashes and ruin. Nothing the Obsidian Order did, nothing of that old brutality did one thing to save them. He got to see it from the outside and participate in a different way of doing things and see why it worked. He learned the value of true loyalty and not secret police enforced conformity. In the absence of Damar, Garak is the perfect one to usher in and protect the new order. He's seen both sides of the equation and knows the consequences better than anyone.
Legitimate claims don't work like that. In the diplomatic corps solution that they bypassed, they would verify the claims in their records (in the 25th century they do have verifiable notarized tamper proof computer records) and then move from there.
And how do you know it's not in the Alliance databanks? Unlike Trox, Ka'ar doesn't seem to have bothered checking.
That said, your argument is disproved by the report. The Klingons never bothered to dispute the claim, they clearly accepted it as legitimate once it was brought up.
As for the question of need, that's a different story. If the Klingons are that hard up for raw materials, we're talking about the Federation here. All they have to do is ask. The Federation was stretching itself then doing everything it could to help rebuild both Cardassia and help Romulan survivors, two groups that previously had been enemies with brief periods of alliance and cordiality. As opposed to Klingons who have been strong allies for the better part of the last century overall. But Klingons are too damn prideful to ever ask, or say, "we're in a tight spot here".
As for giving away technology? If we take Gatar at her word, which we have no reason not to, then the Klingons if they don't present the alliance with their special anti Fed tech, then that tech will sit in drydock since they're lacking in materiel. Furthermore it's a matter of survival for them as well. The Terrans conquered the Klingon empire in their reality, you think they're gonna ignore the Klingons in ours? It's hardly altruism.
That is how these things work in Space exploration. One ship makes survey and charts an area and then another specialized ship follows behind and does an in depth study. This falls under the exploration mission that was put on hold due to the three back to back wars the Federation was involved in.
In the 23rd century your Constitution class would cruise in and do an initial evaluation and then an Oberth like the Grissom would follow behind for the in depth study.
In the 24th century it was a Galaxy followed by an Intrepid or for really long surveys a Nova class. It's why science ships are science ships. Their job is to bring in the heavy scientific gear and stay on site as long as it takes to learn all that is learnable.
Take the episode Pen Pals. The Enterprise-D was in the same area for six weeks. But they were mapping the entire sector. Each individual planet in that sector would require a single starship to focus on it for months in order to properly milk it for all its data. This isn't procrastination it's the sacrifices the Federation had to make because it was at war.
And if he had blasted the Federation ship on entry to the system not only would he have sundered the alliance, but he would've started another war that according to this report, the Klingons don't have the resources to win.
The Trill has come to expect Klingons to try and kill him. Because he has already died twice in the last two years. And he's trying to make it past 365 days this time.
The President of the United Federation of Planets is named Aennik Okeg. He's a nice Saurian Gentleman, who's quick to extend the olive branch of peace but isn't afraid to stand back and let Starfleet do their job and fight the war.
He possibly could be but IF that happens, it's likely because there was something political going on in the background. Something a lot more intricate than, "YOU BAD KLINGON. YOU DIE NOW. GRRAAAAHHHHH!"
I think that you and I do not see eye to eye on whether Garak really gets it, or he's just looking out for Number One in whatever circumstances he finds himself. Me...I do not believe that he actually understands or believes that anything eh did in the past is wrong. And I think that no matter what his actions after he started helping the Federation, a clear message needs to be sent that escaping responsibility for atrocities will not be tolerated in the new Union. Yes, it would be controversial, yes, it might create outrage among hardliners, but I actually think that with the Cardassian mentality, it might be accepted.
In a related side note: I always thought the show really messed up by suggesting Shakespeare was the way for Cardassians to get to know human culture. It should have been Dostoyevsky. Remember, Raskolnikov still had to serve his time in Siberia even after he confessed to the murders he committed and began to realize he'd been wrong. There was FAR more change that needed to happen...a fundamental shift from a "superman" to a "servant" mentality, in him that only that prison sentence would even begin to effect. I see it as the same here: if Garak TRULY is sorry, let him take his punishment without protest.
Yep, that is not something I would expect him to forget. It's not like he hasn't SEEN the evidence of Klingon brutality.
Coincidentally I had a similar scenario in my fanfic with a joined Trill bridge officer, who was killed in a ground battle by a sadistic Klingon who took great pleasure in stabbing near the symbiont pouch and leaving him to die slowly and in agony. (And if you think Klinks don't torture, look at the bragging that guy did on DS9 about taking a Benzite's breather and watching him suffocate.) The emergency joining that occurred after that ultimately destabilized and led to the host's death--meaning the Klink butcher destroyed two lives, not just the one he took that day on the battlefield.
You think that character, even in the next life after those two, had any reason to respect Klingons after that?
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And I don't blame the Trill for doing what he did. That's a PERFECTLY normal response to being told that they'll shoot his ship. Lock weapons on the opposing vessel's weapons and wait. This is something done by every captain. Including Picard, know as one of the greatest diplomats of his time. I certainly wouldn't give my 'opponent' an opportunity to shoot my vessel if I could prevent it.
It's nice to see some current lore confirming what has been the case for a while within the Klingon military. A multi-species bridge crew. I'm doubtful such a crew is unique to Ka’ar.
We finally did get a decent Klingon (species) centric story mission arc. Some we know took forever to experience. While I've always understood that not all KDF player's are pleased with multi-species Empire at all, some of us (generally speaking) have been challenging the Devs to show us this multi-species, Empire military for years. The set-up has always been here. Within the Path to 2409 lore. Just no substantive follow-up within the game. Other than a player can pick another species over that of a Klingon. Now, as others have suggested, let's get these ideas from blog into game.
Agreed - it's not like there's not plenty of in-game hooks for nice Orion-centric or Gorn-centric story arcs. The death/capture of Hassan The Undying at Nimbus III would certainly have some effect on the Orion Syndicate and Orion players; and Listening Post Hephestus mentions Melani Di'an meeting with Drax at the House of Martok estates, that's something that would be interesting to follow up on... Then there's all the mentions in DOff assignment, Nimbus III in the canyon and one of the system patrols in the New Romulus area about Gorn Separtists, I know I'd enjoy seeing something done with that idea, give Gorn players a chance to (even if it has no real effect on anything) play as loyal vassals of the Klingon Empire or resistance-minded Hegemony die-hards...
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
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Not straight-out "Destroy all the primates" Gorn resistance, but maybe something akin to how the Romulan arc registers the differences between a Fed-allied and KDF-allied player; dialogue options, maybe Fleet Support summoning a Gorn ship instead of a Klingon one, little things that have no actual effect on gameplay, they just change the feel of the game.
Kind of like the old complaint I've heard from a lot of players; "I don't want Klingonese in the dialogue, I play a Gorn/Orion/Nausicaan/Ferasan/Lethean/etc., my character would be saying that!"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Again though it would be nice.
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Most certainly.
Well do you consider that all criminals of the old regime should be punished? Cause the Bajorans have a request for some people with some pretty nasty records that they'd like to have a word with that the Cardassians have said a flat no to.
It's fascinating that you say that he escaped punishment. If you will recall the entire reason we first met Garak at all was that he was exiled for being a criminal in Cardassian eyes. Or at the very least making the wrong enemies. To the point where he spent the better part of a decade using his anti torture implant as a coping mechanism since he was in such a deep hell. In many ways he was punished first, and had served his time. I'm not sure how he would react to an execution. Especially not after four decades of positive service to the Cardassian Union and the rightful democratic Detapa Council.
I don't believe that making Garak some sort of subservient personality type would be any better. Nor do I believe it possible.
Yes, the Russian classics would be a better brand for relation to the Cardassians. Shakespeare isn't for everyone.
Indeed Starfleet Psychiatric ain't that good.
Your opinion is irrelevant. Every civilization in the setting uses digital record keeping. I'm sure the Federation has the equivalent of the single write isolinear rods that were used in "In the Pale Moon Light." Even in money the only physical mediums we've seen are Gold Pressed Latinum and Klingon darseks.
You complaining about the Federation saying we surveyed this first is worse than any interpretation of whining that Ka'ar might have done. And has been pointed out, the crew of the Leng didn't dispute the claim. It's likely that they had already seen the record for themselves.
No, not every planet is claimed by them. But if they got their first then they still have a legitimate claim to it. Seeing as how the Klingons hadn't done anything but orbit and scan either any claim they make is just as flimsy by your metric. As for acting like a chump, I didn't see one Starfleet Officer backing down in this meeting.
If you will recall the Klingon-Cardassian War, the Klingon Empire has a border with Cardassian space nearby the Bajor sector. Close enough to regularly interact with DS9. Furthermore in STO, enemies have no problems cruising through to the Klingon side, so no, they wouldn't be able to sit back while the Federation gets its head knocked.
A Klingon can't call us punks while worrying about us recovering our strength faster and leaving you in the dust.
The Day of Honor introducing us to the Bortasqu's crew was a nice bit of that. An Amabassador S'Tass is always a welcome sight...and voic(sssss)e.
The choice of crew compliment is of course up to each individual captain, but I have two Klingons and neither has a monospecies crew.
Now that's a good point. Frankly though that's a larger symptom of the lack of extensive Klingon-centric content overall. Even if it was accessible to all factions, there could still be a storyline that is uniquely experienced from the Klingon side. Like how Wasteland on Nimbus III had an entirely different feel and perspective if you were playing through it with a Romulan just because you knew what you were up against.
Well that's certainly true, more flavor. Same as how on the Fed side, a Vulcan and an Andorian would have substantially different dialogue and responses.
also I recently played Cold Comfort as a Gorn. It was amusing that the Breen guy talked about how he doesn't talk to animals.... yeah.... ok.... talk or I rip your head off.
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Or the reactions and attitudes on Bajor that are the same if you're human, Romulan, Klingon or, oh I don't know, Bajoran.
The sad thing is, they've proven they can do it; the new Fed tutorial, FED "Diplomatic Orders" (the High Priest on Vulcan gives different responses if you're Vulcan), Obisek during "Frozen" after LoR offers Remans a chance to join the Resistance (something even Romulans aren't permitted)... It's just nobody's done anything about it in most of the missions.
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
The color scheme/background is great, but there are some space-wasting features. If those could be addressed, I'd be completely happy.
Whether extradited or alternately, punished (as in, NOT a slap on the wrist) internally, those war criminals should be punished for their crimes.
Garak simply made the wrong enemies; he didn't actually believe he was wrong, only that he got caught. He didn't actually learn anything from it other than to do a better job of watching his back.
If he actually looked out for others before himself, I think that would be an improvement.
It worked for the Klingons, but just imagine the Cardassians watching Porfiry Porfirovich seeking that confession out of Raskolnikov. It would touch on both the similarities between Cardassian and human cultures, and the big differences...Dostoyevsky would greatly challenge the Cardassians' state ideology.
Indeed, there's a point where some experiences are just so awful and so wrong that you just can't ask for a shrink to eliminate all of the effects. That's beyond human power. Well, humanoid, in the Trek universe.
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