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Kemocite laced weapons - really?

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  • alfiedonoalfiedono Member Posts: 122 Arc User
    edited September 2015

    pottsey5g wrote: »
    alfiedono wrote: »
    See here for a fine example of this stuff in action: https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/3l59ey/check_out_aux2batman_also_known_as_sir_clicksalot/

    Buy one for whatever price you can get it for. Get your cheesy 39K neutronic and 47K Kemo DPS buffs today!
    There is another way to look at that video. Kemo did half the damage of FaW and around the same damage as torp spread 3. Its not that bad compared to the other bridge officer powers. FaW is doing over double the damage.

    The key difference is that in this case Kemo + TS3 is causing a single weapon (one torpedo) to outperform everything else on a ship. An apples to apples comparison would be Kemo + TS3 + Neutronic dmg VS FAW + Kemo + dmg on one beam. On that basis other bridge officer abilities simply suck and cannot compete.

    You whack a single neutronic torp on a beam build with Kemo (the newest generation of high DPS builds) and your DPS skyrockets.

    Post edited by alfiedono on
  • alfiedonoalfiedono Member Posts: 122 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    farshore wrote: »
    Kemocite needs to be nerfed. Even if it were readily available to everyone, something like that is just plain bad for the game.

    Oh, forgot to mention, in PVP neutronic torp + TS3 + Kemo is a death trap on high flow cap builds. The AOE drain from neutronic will shut down even the tankiest builds in PVP (especially if the target has pets to increase the amount of torps that are fired from the neutkemospread combo). Kemo and neutronic AOE radiation will then strip all the shield away on the unpowered and defenseless victim, allowing the full brunt of neutronic's kinetic dmg to dealt.

    Do this thing to the "invincible/can't kill me" tanks out there and watch them cry.

    We all know how much PVPers are willing to dish out for their cheese. They probably form a significant proportion of the demand for Kemo on the exchange and the other half of the reason why it now costs so much. Just be glad that PVP is almost dead in this game, otherwise we would probably be seeing lots of "WTT Annorax for Kemocite 1" call outs on trade channel and zone chat.

    So basically the truth is, whether you're a PVPer or a PVEer, everyone needs kemocite + neutronic cheese to compete in this game today.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    alfiedono wrote: »

    You whack a single neutronic torp on a beam build with Kemo (the newest generation of high DPS builds) and your DPS skyrockets.

    Well people have been asking for mixed beam + torp builds to be better for ages now. Seems Cryptic has succeeded somewhat in making that real.

    TBH I think Cryptic should add more skills similar to kemo that is more accessible. That'll balance it out IMO.
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    e30ernest wrote: »
    alfiedono wrote: »

    You whack a single neutronic torp on a beam build with Kemo (the newest generation of high DPS builds) and your DPS skyrockets.

    Well people have been asking for mixed beam + torp builds to be better for ages now. Seems Cryptic has succeeded somewhat in making that real.

    TBH I think Cryptic should add more skills similar to kemo that is more accessible. That'll balance it out IMO.

    I dont think availability equals balance. Any player if really want to is capable of acquiring Kemo, either thru grinding/time or purchase zen.

    It is just like the prices of other cookie cutter build traits or weapons. Its expensive but affordable to anyone willing to make an effort.

    Otherwise, this would be just a commie/socialist wet dream with no point of having an in-game economy. Might as well let them close the exchange/trade mechanics and send all power creep thru our mails.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    paxdawn wrote: »
    I dont think availability equals balance. Any player if really want to is capable of acquiring Kemo, either thru grinding/time or purchase zen.

    It is just like the prices of other cookie cutter build traits or weapons. Its expensive but affordable to anyone willing to make an effort.

    Otherwise, this would be just a commie/socialist wet dream with no point of having an in-game economy. Might as well let them close the exchange/trade mechanics and send all power creep thru our mails.

    The issue with Kemo is its limited supply (lockbox only and an old lockbox to boot). IMO there shouldn't have been such a powerful ability locked out in such a way in any game. I think it is only fair that a similar skill should be more available to players to open up more options.

    Don't get me wrong, I have Kemo too (bought them when they were still relatively cheap). I'm just thinking about other players here and how the gap between new players and old vets is continuing to widen because certain items are getting harder and harder to acquire.
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    e30ernest wrote: »
    paxdawn wrote: »
    I dont think availability equals balance. Any player if really want to is capable of acquiring Kemo, either thru grinding/time or purchase zen.

    It is just like the prices of other cookie cutter build traits or weapons. Its expensive but affordable to anyone willing to make an effort.

    Otherwise, this would be just a commie/socialist wet dream with no point of having an in-game economy. Might as well let them close the exchange/trade mechanics and send all power creep thru our mails.

    The issue with Kemo is its limited supply (lockbox only and an old lockbox to boot). IMO there shouldn't have been such a powerful ability locked out in such a way in any game. I think it is only fair that a similar skill should be more available to players to open up more options.

    Don't get me wrong, I have Kemo too (bought them when they were still relatively cheap). I'm just thinking about other players here and how the gap between new players and old vets is continuing to widen because certain items are getting harder and harder to acquire.

    Harder is relative. New and old players have the same access in getting EC for f2p or buying Zen. Therefore same access in getting the Kemo. I see no issue here.

    I believe the issue is player disparity of effort. Players who makes less effort/time/money wanting the same power creep of the one who makes more effort, willing to spend more time/money.
  • spaceeagle20spaceeagle20 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    Don't worry, guys : the price is going to drop when Kemocite will be fixed lol
    P58WJe7.jpg


  • alfiedonoalfiedono Member Posts: 122 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    Don't worry, guys : the price is going to drop when Kemocite will be fixed lol

    Yeah, might happen in season 13 by current estimates, will probably reduce the market price from 500M to 450M at that time.

    I hear the devs have already been told about how great Kemo is with Torp Spread - like 4 months ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWh1FouHLv8&feature=youtu.be) [even cheesier with Neutronic, but not shown in this one] - and still not a word about it apparently.

  • sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    So if you could put a monetary value on Kemo (in Dollars, Zen, ect) how much would you spend on it?

    I personally would like to drop $10 and outright buy the thing. At this rate it will cost almost $100 in straight Zen soon enough.

    This is what I hate about Lockboxes. Just let me outright buy things and make them affordable. PWE marketing at its finest here folks. While you're at it remove The Dil Exchange and Lockboxes too ;)
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  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    paxdawn wrote: »
    Harder is relative. New and old players have the same access in getting EC for f2p or buying Zen. Therefore same access in getting the Kemo. I see no issue here.

    I believe the issue is player disparity of effort. Players who makes less effort/time/money wanting the same power creep of the one who makes more effort, willing to spend more time/money.

    You're assuming a fixed price. When I'm talking about accessibility, I'm also talking about the supply. It's a rare drop from an old lockbox. Prices are only going up so no, it will never be equal for the amount of money spent. I bought mine at 5M and 15M. How much are they now?

    I don't think the issue is that Kemocite is powerful, the issue is that there aren't many options comparable to it atm. Make Kemocite and any lockbox manual available via Lobi or make new skills close (but weaker) than Kemocite so that there will be more options for the community at large.
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  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    e30ernest wrote: »
    paxdawn wrote: »
    Harder is relative. New and old players have the same access in getting EC for f2p or buying Zen. Therefore same access in getting the Kemo. I see no issue here.

    I believe the issue is player disparity of effort. Players who makes less effort/time/money wanting the same power creep of the one who makes more effort, willing to spend more time/money.

    You're assuming a fixed price. When I'm talking about accessibility, I'm also talking about the supply. It's a rare drop from an old lockbox. Prices are only going up so no, it will never be equal for the amount of money spent. I bought mine at 5M and 15M. How much are they now?

    I don't think the issue is that Kemocite is powerful, the issue is that there aren't many options comparable to it atm. Make Kemocite and any lockbox manual available via Lobi or make new skills close (but weaker) than Kemocite so that there will be more options for the community at large.

    The best stuff costing the most gives people something to work toward and earn.

    It's a vital part of progression based games.

    I didn't say free. Lobi still takes quite a bit to accumulate so they will have to work for Lobi.
  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,750 Arc User
    alfiedono wrote: »
    So basically the truth is, whether you're a PVPer or a PVEer, everyone needs kemocite + neutronic cheese to compete in this game today.

    Lol...competing in PVE...dps is serious business :p​​
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    burstorion wrote: »
    alfiedono wrote: »
    Lol...competing in PVE...dps is serious business :p​​

    You would be surprised....
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    sdkraust wrote: »
    So if you could put a monetary value on Kemo (in Dollars, Zen, ect) how much would you spend on it?

    I personally would like to drop $10 and outright buy the thing. At this rate it will cost almost $100 in straight Zen soon enough.

    This is what I hate about Lockboxes. Just let me outright buy things and make them affordable. PWE marketing at its finest here folks. While you're at it remove The Dil Exchange and Lockboxes too ;)

    then they wouldnt be rare, and everyone would have the same thing

    Then Cryptic might start making a game and not a skinner box simulator.
  • samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    I'm going to say it one last time, KLW is not that powerful except in VERY specific situations. Those situations involve using torpedoes which is a good thing. It's popular because it fixes the useless tactical ensign syndrome so many ships have had for years. So it's simply a matter of not having anything better to use. Things like FAW and APB are OP no matter how you use them so if you wanna whine about something whine about that.
  • sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    samt1996 wrote: »
    I'm going to say it one last time, KLW is not that powerful except in VERY specific situations. Those situations involve using torpedoes which is a good thing. It's popular because it fixes the useless tactical ensign syndrome so many ships have had for years. So it's simply a matter of not having anything better to use. Things like FAW and APB are OP no matter how you use them so if you wanna whine about something whine about that.

    Damn and here I am trying to build a Torp Boat wanting 1x KLW3 for "VERY specific situations" seeing as it's the best damage my pitiful little ship can output.

    *shrug*

    P.S. A good Torp build is significantly cheaper than one of those AP Beam Array or DBB builds, and is 10 times as fun as crappy FAW spam.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    Well, I know my put my Fleet Tier5U Defiant back out of mothballs in anticipatins of a Tier 6 ship ,and decided it had way too many tactical slots for a character with Reprocity- so I bought Kemocite III and equipped it with 3 DHCs and a Neutronic Torpedo. Seems pretty nasty. And colorful. And expensive.

    I guess my Science Vessel pilots could really use Kemocite, too, but the lower tier versions are even more costly.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    sdkraust wrote: »
    So if you could put a monetary value on Kemo (in Dollars, Zen, ect) how much would you spend on it?

    I personally would like to drop $10 and outright buy the thing. At this rate it will cost almost $100 in straight Zen soon enough.

    This is what I hate about Lockboxes. Just let me outright buy things and make them affordable. PWE marketing at its finest here folks. While you're at it remove The Dil Exchange and Lockboxes too ;)

    I would pay $10 for Kemo if I could craft manuals after getting it and maybe if it came with a costume unlock for BOffs.

    This is actually more how I think costume unlocks should work: like mini-ship purchases. You get a cosmetic and a functional item (3 manuals).

    Torpedo Specialist Odyssey Variant, for example. Comes with a Kemocite-variant that works on Photons. You could sell a variant weapon type Kemo for each weapon type. AP comes with a specialty Voth costume, Polaron comes with a specialty Jem'Hadar costume. Might have the energy type specific Kemo be slightly better than the current model (post-fix) as a nod to the energy limitation.

    Bridge Officer Space Ability packs. Includes a ground costume (which, obviously, should be usable by BOffs although it might be a variant of existing costumes). Includes 3 training manuals and a crafting unlock to make more. And like I say, you could make these energy type specific.

    Along with this to market harder, I'd look at allowing one BOff in all social zones. Because if you want to sell more costumes, people need to display more costumes.
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    e30ernest wrote: »
    You're assuming a fixed price. When I'm talking about accessibility, I'm also talking about the supply. It's a rare drop from an old lockbox. Prices are only going up so no, it will never be equal for the amount of money spent. I bought mine at 5M and 15M. How much are they now?

    I don't think the issue is that Kemocite is powerful, the issue is that there aren't many options comparable to it atm. Make Kemocite and any lockbox manual available via Lobi or make new skills close (but weaker) than Kemocite so that there will be more options for the community at large.

    Which is the same as all other items lockbox item cookie cutter top end builds from inspirational leader, plasmonic leech(fed), fluidic coccoon, or lobi consoles like BIC, etc. Those are all available to new or old players except players must pay a certain price which can be calculated in EC which then can be calculated in effort/zen.

    If you are going to reason price it goes back to the reason of player effort disparity. Assuming new players buy now, The difference would be if players are willing to make an effort/exchange/use in game economy or grind or buy zen. Those who make effort thru grind or selling to players or buy zen are the ones who are going to acquire the KLW. While those choosing not to make increase effort or buy zen ends up not buying or end up making threads like these.

    The KLW situation is no different from the freebies like the Kobali or the Sol sets. Except you must make more effort than just do a couple of episodes.
    samt1996 wrote: »
    I'm going to say it one last time, KLW is not that powerful except in VERY specific situations. Those situations involve using torpedoes which is a good thing. It's popular because it fixes the useless tactical ensign syndrome so many ships have had for years. So it's simply a matter of not having anything better to use. Things like FAW and APB are OP no matter how you use them so if you wanna whine about something whine about that.

    Where is your proof of this? Check out the SCM ISA parse both Eternal and Sobs 194k Parse. Per weapon Neutronic TS3 trumps AP DBB BFAW3. You need to combine all the DBB FAW3 just to equalize with 1 Neutronic TS3.
  • sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    Actually what would be really cool would be to get special bridges / uniforms from Ship purchases. I would love to use a Xindi, Tholian, Kobali, ect bridge for example of my Fed Ships.

    You already get things like the Kobali Outfit from playing seasonal limited time events to match the Kobali Ship.
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    sdkraust wrote: »
    So if you could put a monetary value on Kemo (in Dollars, Zen, ect) how much would you spend on it?

    I personally would like to drop $10 and outright buy the thing. At this rate it will cost almost $100 in straight Zen soon enough.

    This is what I hate about Lockboxes. Just let me outright buy things and make them affordable. PWE marketing at its finest here folks. While you're at it remove The Dil Exchange and Lockboxes too ;)

    then they wouldnt be rare, and everyone would have the same thing

    That's the thing. There does need to be some rare items/powers to strive for in all MMOs. I would argue that they shouldn't be as powerful as kemocite but that's up for debate in my mind.

    I can see a "power" pack in the future like we have doff packs now otherwise kemocite will just continue to get more and more expensive.
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    I see the price is creeping towards 200 million thanks to the free advertising efforts in this thread. It is tempting to burn $80 of zen to get it but with my luck it'll be nerfed to coincide with the next lockbox. I missed out on all but the last month of doping so I guess I can miss out on this as well. Spending $80 of time value for one ensign ability seems sort of insane.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

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  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    good lord lol. that's just insane.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • edited September 2015
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  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2015
    alfiedono wrote: »
    farshore wrote: »
    Kemocite needs to be nerfed. Even if it were readily available to everyone, something like that is just plain bad for the game.

    Oh, forgot to mention, in PVP neutronic torp + TS3 + Kemo is a death trap on high flow cap builds. The AOE drain from neutronic will shut down even the tankiest builds in PVP (especially if the target has pets to increase the amount of torps that are fired from the neutkemospread combo). Kemo and neutronic AOE radiation will then strip all the shield away on the unpowered and defenseless victim, allowing the full brunt of neutronic's kinetic dmg to dealt.

    Do this thing to the "invincible/can't kill me" tanks out there and watch them cry.

    We all know how much PVPers are willing to dish out for their cheese. They probably form a significant proportion of the demand for Kemo on the exchange and the other half of the reason why it now costs so much. Just be glad that PVP is almost dead in this game, otherwise we would probably be seeing lots of "WTT Annorax for Kemocite 1" call outs on trade channel and zone chat.

    So basically the truth is, whether you're a PVPer or a PVEer, everyone needs kemocite + neutronic cheese to compete in this game today.

    While I've never gotten my power shut down by the torpedoes, probably because I'm always cycling energy siphon and have the plasmonic leech power on my high drain ship. I will say the Kemo+TS3+Neut Torp is the most disruptive thing in PvP right now. At least part gens builds I can deal with since they scaled back the damage, but that combo is very very deadly. Heck, I could spend the day going into PvP matches and gathering all the combat log amounts from the neut death combo.

    I will say the devs have to scale back the effectivness of the Kemocite ability. It's like the plasma consoles and particle manipulator. They keep releasing stuff they think is balanced and then players will expose how wrong they are by getting massive amounts of damage off them.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,253 Arc User
    bobs1111 wrote: »
    “Really ? Where exactly do you think it comes from. If you are talking about sub or lifetime stipend... umm that is money. If you are talking about free zen someone earned doing a survey for PWE... that is also money.”
    It’s not player money. The player isn’t paying money to maintain the stipend; the player isn’t paying money to fill out a survey for PWE. A large amount of zen is going into the game each month without a players paying a penny that month.

    As for the lockboxs you forgot about all the free keys players can get at times without paying cash. I lost count of how many lockbox's I opened up without buying keys either with zen or EC.

    P2W to me is like in other games when you get an advantage from paying and there is no other way to get that advantage other than paying. P2W is where the players that pays walk over the players that do not pay.
    STO does not suffer from that like true P2W games. Having seen other real P2W games I find it hard to call STO a P2W game. STO doesn't have stuff like pay cash for a 20% hitpoint and damage bonus for x hours that is only possible via cash. In STO a player that doesn't pay can compete against a player that does pay. In a P2W game that doesn't happen which is why I don't like calling STO P2W.
  • sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    bobs1111 wrote: »
    “Really ? Where exactly do you think it comes from. If you are talking about sub or lifetime stipend... umm that is money. If you are talking about free zen someone earned doing a survey for PWE... that is also money.”
    It’s not player money. The player isn’t paying money to maintain the stipend; the player isn’t paying money to fill out a survey for PWE. A large amount of zen is going into the game each month without a players paying a penny that month.

    As for the lockboxs you forgot about all the free keys players can get at times without paying cash. I lost count of how many lockbox's I opened up without buying keys either with zen or EC.

    P2W to me is like in other games when you get an advantage from paying and there is no other way to get that advantage other than paying. P2W is where the players that pays walk over the players that do not pay.
    STO does not suffer from that like true P2W games. Having seen other real P2W games I find it hard to call STO a P2W game. STO doesn't have stuff like pay cash for a 20% hitpoint and damage bonus for x hours that is only possible via cash. In STO a player that doesn't pay can compete against a player that does pay. In a P2W game that doesn't happen which is why I don't like calling STO P2W.

    Yes and those people payed Cryptic $300 to get that stipend every month. I loathe it, but that's how the system works.
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