There shouldn't be a "de facto" build of FAW/EPtW/Plasma Explosions/Kemocite if you can afford it.
There should always be (equally as) good alternatives; but right now, there aren't. Why?
Overcapping. Either Cannons need to be allowed to benefit from it, or it needs to be removed entirely. This has been happening for literally years now, and the issue is only being further compounded due to ever increasing Power Creep. Cryptic needs to figure out why it's happening and decide if it should be happening or it shouldn't.
Torpedoes don't properly have their damage buffs applied from rarity/Mark, and they face the issue of "1% shield = 90% damage negated."
Cannons are bugged. DHCs don't even get their innate 10% CrtD when you use Scatter Volley, Rapid Fire, etc. And then there's the Range Drop Off mechanic that made complete sense when the game was launched - but then Power Creep has taken hold over the years and significantly reduced the advantages of Cannons that led to the creation of that mechanic in the first place.
Sci abilities that aren't TBR, GW, or Destabilizing ResBeam suck. Tyken's is sometimes OK, but more often than not, it's meh at best. And things like PSW, VM, CPB, Tachyon Beam, etc are just terrible and will probably even lower your overall effectiveness in any sort of competent gameplay.
Hardly a comprehensive list, but a list nonetheless. Of course you can make Cannons/Torps/Sci work, but you're artificially gimping yourself. Yes you can run them if you like them (duh), but the fact is that the conditions that led to you being gimped shouldn't exist in the first place.
And a lot of this could be fixed if Cryptic would just fix some longstanding bugs.
I agree that it can be irritating when you just want to run a quick ISA, only to find yourself in a team with 4 <10k-ers, or people who don't know not to split up. But imho, that's part of why it's interesting to run pugs...you need to be prepared for anything!
And if you can't defend yourself in a situation where your teammates aren't pulling high enough DPS, then you should be considering that it's really you who isn't balanced: pushing too much toward power and not enough towards survivability. "Balance" depends very much on what you want to get out of the game.
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I personally thank the DPS Channels and other STF channels, without them i'd still be pugging PvE and tearing my hair out after hitting fail after fail after fail because of other players not equipped well enough for advanced or elite entering these queues and putting all the pressure on me to carry them through the run.
Even now you enter a pug run through the public queues and its a complete lottery on what type of team you are going to get and the odds are more likely a bad one than a good one.
Martok once said "war is much more fun when you are winning" and i agree a game is much more fun when you are winning rather than losing.
Stop using the DPS guys as scapegoats for the games issues/power creep, they were smashing records long before Delta Rising and Mk XIV weapons. Why because they understand game mechanics and have TESTED what works best. All Cryptic have done is give EVERYONE not just the DPS guys but EVERYONE the ability to pull high dps. Some can, some can't, biggest issue isn't the power creep, is whiny little babies that can't, crying because others can.
Typical human behaviour, where i can't have/do what you can, so you shouldn't be able to either so lets take it away.
I personally thank the DPS Channels and other STF channels, without them i'd still be pugging PvE and tearing my hair out after hitting fail after fail after fail because of other players not equipped well enough for advanced or elite entering these queues and putting all the pressure on me to carry them through the run.
Even now you enter a pug run through the public queues and its a complete lottery on what type of team you are going to get and the odds are more likely a bad one than a good one.
Martok once said "war is much more fun when you are winning" and i agree a game is much more fun when you are winning rather than losing.
Stop using the DPS guys as scapegoats for the games issues/power creep, they were smashing records long before Delta Rising and Mk XIV weapons. Why because they understand game mechanics and have TESTED what works best. All Cryptic have done is give EVERYONE not just the DPS guys but EVERYONE the ability to pull high dps. Some can, some can't, biggest issue isn't the power creep, is whiny little babies that can't, crying because others can.
Typical human behaviour, where i can't have/do what you can, so you shouldn't be able to either so lets take it away.
your post is also a typical human behavior
well, personally i left the dps channel. they are just boring and not challenging; pugs are more exciting, and when i enter in a totally failed ISA, i stay for helping the other players
the solidarity should be everywhere, not only in special channels
I for one have never cared what my DPS is, and I don't wish to know. This is not because I'm lazy, ignorant or whatever. I chose my main as a Sci because that is MY style. The problem with the space mechanics is that the hardpoints aren't canon, unlike the SFC series. There is also the fact that you can't drain your weapons capacitors, unlike the SFC series, where firing all your 8+ weapons would drain half your available power. The SFC series had you actually thinking about how and when to maneuver your ship to get the enemy into the right arc, here people just sit there mashing 'Space Bar'. When I want a battle, vaping an enemy is just not satisfying enough. Unlike the SFC series where you can target individual systems forcing the enemy to repair, here you can only target the subset, and then they rarely go offline long enough. I prefer the 'Death by a thousand cuts' method, not the 'oops, sneezed, you're dead' method. Saying that, I can still achieve the optionals in STF's, despite not being super-boosted with 5 Tac consoles et all.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
[*] Torpedoes don't properly have their damage buffs applied from rarity/Mark, and they face the issue of "1% shield = 90% damage negated."
Yes the shield thing needs to be fixed for sure. Torp shield penetration should go up as shield points get lower. Otherwise torps (outside of neutronic) will always be pointless.
When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
You cant solve anything with just few number changes. Something else would became "OP" after that. As much as it pains me to say it, better to leave it as it is, than experiment and make it even worse. However, the stupid shield resistance against torpedoes could be tweaked a little.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
There shouldn't be a "de facto" build of FAW/EPtW/Plasma Explosions/Kemocite if you can afford it.
There should always be (equally as) good alternatives; but right now, there aren't. Why?
Overcapping. Either Cannons need to be allowed to benefit from it, or it needs to be removed entirely. This has been happening for literally years now, and the issue is only being further compounded due to ever increasing Power Creep. Cryptic needs to figure out why it's happening and decide if it should be happening or it shouldn't.
Torpedoes don't properly have their damage buffs applied from rarity/Mark, and they face the issue of "1% shield = 90% damage negated."
Cannons are bugged. DHCs don't even get their innate 10% CrtD when you use Scatter Volley, Rapid Fire, etc. And then there's the Range Drop Off mechanic that made complete sense when the game was launched - but then Power Creep has taken hold over the years and significantly reduced the advantages of Cannons that led to the creation of that mechanic in the first place.
Sci abilities that aren't TBR, GW, or Destabilizing ResBeam suck. Tyken's is sometimes OK, but more often than not, it's meh at best. And things like PSW, VM, CPB, Tachyon Beam, etc are just terrible and will probably even lower your overall effectiveness in any sort of competent gameplay.
Hardly a comprehensive list, but a list nonetheless. Of course you can make Cannons/Torps/Sci work, but you're artificially gimping yourself. Yes you can run them if you like them (duh), but the fact is that the conditions that led to you being gimped shouldn't exist in the first place.
And a lot of this could be fixed if Cryptic would just fix some longstanding bugs.
Agreed on all points. Instead of making things balanced the devs simply made beams the highest DPS category instead of DHC. It's very lazy.
I'm not a DPSer. My main is an engineer, I haven't upgraded a single thing yet, and my favorite ships are still escorts/warbirds with DHC and a single foreward torpedo. I can push about 13k max DPS right now (betweek 12k-13k). I started using that kind of ship years ago, wound up loving that gameplay and do not want to change it even though it's not nearly as effective anymore.
Why is my DPS so low and why haven't I upgraded anything yet? Well a few reasons. First, I don't care about the DPS race. This isn't a PvP game where it would matter. If there's an upgrade weekend in the future I might upgrade some things, we'll see. I have fun with my engineers in DHC escorts and in ground maps with turrets and mines and things. Second, I'm not willing to spend EC or real-life money to acquire the expensive items needed for high DPS. A single kemocite I costs over 100m EC, a plasmonic leech is between 80m-90m, and I have about 50m total across all characters. I haven't opened a lockbox since the uncommon cardassian boxes. I have virtually no lobi for any lobi consoles, ships or gear. I bought the DR pack with dilithium and that's the only significant c-store purchase I've made. Yes I know I can convert dilithium to EC and can sell crafting components etc. to make EC but because I don't care about the DPS race I don't care about acquiring that much EC.
I don't feel this game is worth spending money on. It's fun but it's not so great that I'll spend money on it. I have fun with my 10k-13k DPS engineers in their ineffective DHC escorts that I get to play for free. The devs have never gotten the MMO trinity of DPS/tank/healer correct and in fact stopped bothering long ago, which left engineers far behind in space (my summation on how engineers can be made viable in space can be found here: http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1196327/the-engineer-class-from-a-different-point-of-view#latest). Development decisions are guided by metrics which is a nice way of saying "we work on what will make us the most money, not on what's best for the game," and I suspect metrics are one of the reasons why such terrible mechanics as overcapping have not been addressed.
I personally thank the DPS Channels and other STF channels, without them i'd still be pugging PvE and tearing my hair out after hitting fail after fail after fail because of other players not equipped well enough for advanced or elite entering these queues and putting all the pressure on me to carry them through the run.
Even now you enter a pug run through the public queues and its a complete lottery on what type of team you are going to get and the odds are more likely a bad one than a good one.
I pug advanced and in my experience they fail not because of a lack of DPS but because of what I can usually say is "trolling." Some people may not be familiar with ISA but I'm sure many of us who've pugged it have seen an individual or a pair in the same fleet go destroy the generators in ISA on their own, and you'd swear they're doing it on purpose because there's no other explanation. I'm not talking a high DPS scimitar trying to solo one side, I'm talking people who will destroy a single generator on the right side while the rest of the team is busy with the left transformer, or will rush ahead and pop a generator before everyone is ready.
You'd swear these people just said in their fleet chat "I'm bored, who wants to go troll ISA with me?"
You actually don't need a lot of DPS for ISA to succeed with all optionals, you just need people willing to do things in the proper order and be lucky enough if your pugging to not get bored teammates only there to troll.
Trolling ISA became popular the day they changed it from ISE to ISA and the optionals became mandatory. It seems to still be a popular way for bored people to frustrate others.
Well, You dont need super "High dps" to succeed in ISA. My observatioins show a minimum of 50k(5x 10k's or other combo) total DPS will allow you to complete it.That is ...without being stuck in that STF for 20 minutes..
So we want to punish the players who have more skill, knowledge and have spent more resources (time and money investments etc.) and for being able to break down the game into good builds?
What you people forget is that everyone has "access" to these builds nonetheless... if they put the equal effort into acquiring them. The reason why a lot of people complain is because they want everything to be entirely free and simple to acquire. However, it does not alter the fact that it can be acquired by anyone. Sure, students and teenagers may lack the financials to support that type of campaign. A parent and family person may lack the time. A casual player may lack the motive and intentive to gain the skills and knowledge. But all of this is the reality of society and not entirely the fault of the game.
You just have to enter the Dyson ground battlezone and you will realize how weak players' own ground teams are and what type of BOFF combinations and equipment they have. 90% of them lack the overall investment in making their own NPC group really good and "that" is not the fault of the game.
Furthermore, damage will always be advantagerous to any build. The faster you kill, the less you need shields (science) and hull (engineer) to tank. Having good damage numbers is thus inherently always an advantage and that will never change regardless of the damage range and class. The same circumstance would occur with a 10-1000 DPS range or a 10K to 100K DPS range so adjusting that will never change this fact. Yes, some builds can tap into the damage advantage more (like tactical) and whether this is imbalance is debattable. The only way to solve that level of imbalance is to remove the damage class entirely (and the other classes for that matter)... and is that desirable for any MMO?
We could of course force everyone to have the exact same gear or streamline everything to be indifferent, but then people would complain that there is no variety and that everything is choreographed and scripted for them. Would that make things better? Yes, some combinations of gear, specialization trait (and other), ship are more optimal than other builds. This will always be the case unless you make the game entirely homogeneous. But then you would not have different classes and different skills of different categories (offensive, defensive, healing, crowd control etc.). Would that make a fun game? Some of you may now argue that the game is not fun in its current state, and that may be true. But if we made everything in the game indifferent then it would be even less fun.
While the game has some inherent flaws the ball is on the players' court. You can tweak the game and streamline it as much as you want but you can never completely cure the human factor in it. No matter how much you make things equal and homogeneous gameplay wise people aren't 100% identical in how they play and perform in the game. Any sort of gameplay balancing will never solve the human factor. You are more likely to ruin the game if you believe you can solve it by just altering a heterogeneous or even a homogeneous game for that matter... over and over. Nerfing or excessive balancing is never a miracle solution.
Game fixes that could repair this game:
1. APA, GDF, and Tac Fleet only buffs weapons damage.
2. Threat is based on hull, shields, and DPS. Bigger ships like dreads,carriers, and cruisers will have threat modifiers.
3. No respawning on PvE maps. Change the crew mechanic to be a repair crew. Your ship will now be disabled until another ship can lower its shields and beam its repair crew over. Should take 10 seconds. Add tractor beams to tow a ship to safety for a reduction and a chance of not doing it under in combat, but give the option to do in combat.
There's so very many ways to make this game ridiculously fun to play, including what you mention, and the endless ideas many of us have scattered in these forums, but they get overlooked.
Why?
I believe it's about control and finances. Providing a multitude of gameplay options, including fixed PvP and PvP/E, persistent territory control, sandbox environments, etc., empowers the players to have fun without having to rely on much else, and therefore in ways that will no longer be easy to run metrics on, predict, and monetize.
Devs: Provide the option to Turn OFF full screen flashes from enemy ship explosions
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The problem with STO is non dimishing returns on Damage.
Everything stacks and keep pushing damage higher and higher as well as higher NON Linear Mark gear.
There is diminishing returns. Dont know why players keep insisting there is none. But the common things players who keep insisting there is no diminishing returns at offense are not even top Dog DPSers to realize there is a ceiling, ankle biters I suppose?
It is harder to achieve the DPS ceiling than other ceilings like resistance. A noob can achieve 75% resistance but a noob cannot achieve optimal DPS.
The problem with STO is non dimishing returns on Damage.
Everything stacks and keep pushing damage higher and higher as well as higher NON Linear Mark gear.
There is diminishing returns. Dont know why players keep insisting there is none. But the common things players who keep insisting there is no diminishing returns at offense are not even top Dog DPSers to realize there is a ceiling, ankle biters I suppose?
It is harder to achieve the DPS ceiling than other ceilings like resistance. A noob can achieve 75% resistance but a noob cannot achieve optimal DPS.
The only enforced form of diminishing returns on damage is in how tactical consoles are applied and even that is a side effect of how they are applied. while you can argue range drop off, any pilot that cares about driving maximum numbers is quite capable of rubbing their hull against their target.
The only hard limiting factors I can see to a determined team are weapon power's effect cap of 125, how far they can drive negative resist, which last I checked was around 200% and enemy HP. The last two of those are constantly increasing. While one could argue that at any given time console and boff power limits the effect of weapon power, I would argue that both of those values increase with every addition to the game.
For those who say this can't be fixed by changing a few numbers. This issue can never be fixed, it's a design intention that power can be sold in ever increasing amounts however how damage is calculated and the source numbers used in those calculations can be modified to level the playing field more. For example science powers could be reconfigured to draw power from particle generators and aux power rather than base damage which would give science players more benefit. Tactical powers like APA should be limited in their effect on unconventional forms of damage giving science players a further edge when using 'their' powers, it would also allow for such powers to gain large buffs to their damage potential further helping experienced and inexperienced players alike.
I personally thank the DPS Channels and other STF channels, without them i'd still be pugging PvE and tearing my hair out after hitting fail after fail after fail because of other players not equipped well enough for advanced or elite entering these queues and putting all the pressure on me to carry them through the run.
Even now you enter a pug run through the public queues and its a complete lottery on what type of team you are going to get and the odds are more likely a bad one than a good one.
Of course people want to associate with winners than losing and wasting time. But the fault lies with people not communicating like they use to with the Original STF (before they were queues), and Cryptic creating Queues where soloists are now suddenly in a team situation.
Stop using the DPS guys as scapegoats for the games issues/power creep, they were smashing records long before Delta Rising and Mk XIV weapons. Why because they understand game mechanics and have TESTED what works best. All Cryptic have done is give EVERYONE not just the DPS guys but EVERYONE the ability to pull high dps. Some can, some can't, biggest issue isn't the power creep, [EDITED Inapproripate flaming]
Typical human behaviour, where i can't have/do what you can, so you shouldn't be able to either so lets take it away.
Making them as escape goats is an excuse, its no different than saying drug pushers aren't responsible for people using illegal drugs.
These DPSers are responsible. They're promoting DPS by openly bragging about it as far back as the NWS videos, causing them to have a following, creating a clique (DPS channels) and promoting it as "the best way to play the STO". Even worse, some of the Devs added to the problem in joining them and giving these "DPS Masters" testing rights where they purposely fail to report loopholes that allow them to increase their DPS further when an item makes it live. I know, because some of them actually told me.
And lets not forget the effect it has caused in STO in the past year:
Cryptic was forced to redo the Difficulty Settings so DPSers "can be challenged". And yet the effect caused people to stop playing queues altogether.
No Win Scenario was removed because Fleet Marks were being farmed by DPSers.
Consoles had to be removed or adjusted.
Fire at Will had to be adjusted.
DOFFs had to be adjusted.
BOFFs had to be adjusted.
Growing Peer Pressure by people not having certain builds or playing certain ships. Causing people to leave the game.
So yes, its DPSers fault for pushing the bar too far and Cryptic not putting their foot down. Everyone else shouldn't be punished for not playing the game how you guys want it. Every build in the game should have viablility. Every ship in the game should be viable. So if I want to fly with a Scimitar with a Cannon build, I shouldn't be called a moron for that build. I shouldn't be told that science ships are weak and should fly an Avenger. I shouldn't get yelled at for using Science Powers that isn't heal-related. And I shouldn't get punished an AFKer because a DPSer does all the killing.
This power creep is getting to dangerous levels and Salami, it's time you act. This is suposed to be an MMO, not an online Arcade.
I personally thank the DPS Channels and other STF channels, without them i'd still be pugging PvE and tearing my hair out after hitting fail after fail after fail because of other players not equipped well enough for advanced or elite entering these queues and putting all the pressure on me to carry them through the run.
Even now you enter a pug run through the public queues and its a complete lottery on what type of team you are going to get and the odds are more likely a bad one than a good one.
Of course people want to associate with winners than losing and wasting time. But the fault lies with people not communicating like they use to with the Original STF (before they were queues), and Cryptic creating Queues where soloists are now suddenly in a team situation.
Stop using the DPS guys as scapegoats for the games issues/power creep, they were smashing records long before Delta Rising and Mk XIV weapons. Why because they understand game mechanics and have TESTED what works best. All Cryptic have done is give EVERYONE not just the DPS guys but EVERYONE the ability to pull high dps. Some can, some can't, biggest issue isn't the power creep, [EDITED Inapproripate flaming]
Typical human behaviour, where i can't have/do what you can, so you shouldn't be able to either so lets take it away.
Making them as escape goats is an excuse, its no different than saying drug pushers aren't responsible for people using illegal drugs.
These DPSers are responsible. They're promoting DPS by openly bragging about it as far back as the NWS videos, causing them to have a following, creating a clique (DPS channels) and promoting it as "the best way to play the STO". Even worse, some of the Devs added to the problem in joining them and giving these "DPS Masters" testing rights where they purposely fail to report loopholes that allow them to increase their DPS further when an item makes it live. I know, because some of them actually told me.
And lets not forget the effect it has caused in STO in the past year:
Cryptic was forced to redo the Difficulty Settings so DPSers "can be challenged". And yet the effect caused people to stop playing queues altogether.
No Win Scenario was removed because Fleet Marks were being farmed by DPSers.
Consoles had to be removed or adjusted.
Fire at Will had to be adjusted.
DOFFs had to be adjusted.
BOFFs had to be adjusted.
Growing Peer Pressure by people not having certain builds or playing certain ships. Causing people to leave the game.
So yes, its DPSers fault for pushing the bar too far and Cryptic not putting their foot down. Everyone else shouldn't be punished for not playing the game how you guys want it. Every build in the game should have viablility. Every ship in the game should be viable. So if I want to fly with a Scimitar with a Cannon build, I shouldn't be called a moron for that build. I shouldn't be told that science ships are weak and should fly an Avenger. I shouldn't get yelled at for using Science Powers that isn't heal-related. And I shouldn't get punished an AFKer because a DPSer does all the killing.
This power creep is getting to dangerous levels and Salami, it's time you act. This is suposed to be an MMO, not an online Arcade.
I'm not sure why the sudden hate on DPSers and before you think I'm a DPS fanboy you're mistaken. Everything was adjusted to account for the new content when the cap was raised. They knew that NWS would become a farm because the rank of the weapons going to Mk 14 with upgrades to epic not because DPSers did it. I've been in STFs where I was easily the least dps but still never got punished for AFK because my dps was too low. As long as you do something in an STF provide some sort of consistent damage you will be fine.
Now I want you to think about what you're asking Cryptic to do here. You are essentially asking them to nerf DPS across the board not just Tac but Eng and Sci as well. Why all three classes because its an equation in order to keep everything balanced you have to adjust all aspects. They adjust things in order to keep everything balanced why do you think the new Hyper Shield drained so fast.
Yes, this game is an MMO but what MMO have you played where DPS is not the key to winning. Every MMO I have played DPS is the key along with a good team. There are some MMOs that do focus on the team aspect but your DPS is always going to be the one that wins it for you. The way I see it the DPSers have the hardest job in the team and thats to keep damage up so the team doesn't wipe before heals run out.
Lastlly, you really shouldn't let people bother you saying you need to use this build or play this way. People will bring down other people in any video game because of the competition and an ego aspect. Just play the game the way you want but also understand there is some work involved to getting good DPS or any stat for that matter. Don't give into peer pressure if thats not how you want to play.
Everyone has the same chance to get good gear and stats. If you don't like your stats then do something about it. If these people want to play heavy DPS let them its how they enjoy the game.
The question of balance is an overused, overdiluted statement. Everything here is viable. However, one or few are optimal. So the question would be, why would we want to "balance" optimal stuff when everything is balanced in viability.
"Viable" doesn't mean good, though. "Viable" just means that it's able to get the job done, no matter how painful the experience may be.
Let's say you have two "viable" doctors to choose from for your surgery: One carries a kit full of scalpels, forceps, saws, bite blocks, and a bottle of whiskey. The other has a state-of-the-art, fully-equipped office and lab. Would you really say "it doesn't matter" in this case, or would you make the obvious choice and choose the optimal one?
In STO, choosing "optimal" over "viable" means engaging in more of the game's content without the headache of constantly getting blown up by things that would be trivial had you taken the superior path instead of an inferior one.
Every build in the game should have viablility. Every ship in the game should be viable. So if I want to fly with a Scimitar with a Cannon build, I shouldn't be called a moron for that build. I shouldn't be told that science ships are weak and should fly an Avenger. I shouldn't get yelled at for using Science Powers that isn't heal-related. And I shouldn't get punished an AFKer because a DPSer does all the killing.
But almost every build can be viable and the requirements to complete an advanced stf isn't that high.
A lot of the posts complaining about build viability are mixing up viable for optimal. Viable means good enough to succeed at the game's content. That is true for almost any of the builds. You do not even need a lot of real world or in-game cash to do it (see MBagel's Cheep Deeps series for sub 1M EC builds that can do 20-30k DPS).
I may not have played prior to DR, but right now the diversity of builds that are good enough for advanced content has never been wider. Science, tank, torps, cannons and canon builds are viable now even for Elite. The powercreep that everyone is complaining about here actually helped those builds in my view.
And as a science captain flying a science ship that is using a weapons loadout that isn't going to get top DPS, no one has ever called me a moron or pushed me to switch to a cruiser. I have gotten nothing but good advice on how to maximize my potential from the various communities in the game (even the DPS channels).
I personally thank the DPS Channels and other STF channels, without them i'd still be pugging PvE and tearing my hair out after hitting fail after fail after fail because of other players not equipped well enough for advanced or elite entering these queues and putting all the pressure on me to carry them through the run.
Even now you enter a pug run through the public queues and its a complete lottery on what type of team you are going to get and the odds are more likely a bad one than a good one.
Of course people want to associate with winners than losing and wasting time. But the fault lies with people not communicating like they use to with the Original STF (before they were queues), and Cryptic creating Queues where soloists are now suddenly in a team situation.
Stop using the DPS guys as scapegoats for the games issues/power creep, they were smashing records long before Delta Rising and Mk XIV weapons. Why because they understand game mechanics and have TESTED what works best. All Cryptic have done is give EVERYONE not just the DPS guys but EVERYONE the ability to pull high dps. Some can, some can't, biggest issue isn't the power creep, [EDITED Inapproripate flaming]
Typical human behaviour, where i can't have/do what you can, so you shouldn't be able to either so lets take it away.
Making them as escape goats is an excuse, its no different than saying drug pushers aren't responsible for people using illegal drugs.
These DPSers are responsible. They're promoting DPS by openly bragging about it as far back as the NWS videos, causing them to have a following, creating a clique (DPS channels) and promoting it as "the best way to play the STO". Even worse, some of the Devs added to the problem in joining them and giving these "DPS Masters" testing rights where they purposely fail to report loopholes that allow them to increase their DPS further when an item makes it live. I know, because some of them actually told me.
And lets not forget the effect it has caused in STO in the past year:
Cryptic was forced to redo the Difficulty Settings so DPSers "can be challenged". And yet the effect caused people to stop playing queues altogether.
No Win Scenario was removed because Fleet Marks were being farmed by DPSers.
Consoles had to be removed or adjusted.
Fire at Will had to be adjusted.
DOFFs had to be adjusted.
BOFFs had to be adjusted.
Growing Peer Pressure by people not having certain builds or playing certain ships. Causing people to leave the game.
So yes, its DPSers fault for pushing the bar too far and Cryptic not putting their foot down. Everyone else shouldn't be punished for not playing the game how you guys want it. Every build in the game should have viablility. Every ship in the game should be viable. So if I want to fly with a Scimitar with a Cannon build, I shouldn't be called a moron for that build. I shouldn't be told that science ships are weak and should fly an Avenger. I shouldn't get yelled at for using Science Powers that isn't heal-related. And I shouldn't get punished an AFKer because a DPSer does all the killing.
This power creep is getting to dangerous levels and Salami, it's time you act. This is suposed to be an MMO, not an online Arcade.
I most certainly agree. I'd pick out the particular thing that I agree with more, but they are all so high on my list, none is a clear frontrunner.
So we want to punish the players who have more skill, knowledge and have spent more resources (time and money investments etc.) and for being able to break down the game into good builds?
(...)
While the game has some inherent flaws the ball is on the players' court. You can tweak the game and streamline it as much as you want but you can never completely cure the human factor in it. No matter how much you make things equal and homogeneous gameplay wise people aren't 100% identical in how they play and perform in the game. Any sort of gameplay balancing will never solve the human factor. You are more likely to ruin the game if you believe you can solve it by just altering a heterogeneous or even a homogeneous game for that matter... over and over. Nerfing or excessive balancing is never a miracle solution.
I think these two parts of your post somewhat contradict themselves. And in my understanding of it, I agree with the latter.
Whatever game you make, there will be people who are good at it, people who are decent, people who suck, people who just don't care. Even if you make the goalposts movable so people can decide what they're aiming at, differences will prevail.
This is very fine for a single player game, let's say Civ V without multiplayer mode. Some players will be happy to just play their civ on the easiest level. Click, something happens, an hour spent enjoying it. Some players will try to beat the hardest difficulty with the worst civ possible. The latter group will even be divided into people who accept all mechanics and those who deem some "cheesy". (Anyone who knows the game "Europa Universalis" III or IV will know about the Ryukyu World Domination thing). There sometimes even is a problem in them, think RPGs like Skyrim. People will level, technically but also gameplay wise, so how do I at the same time give them a feeling of accomplishment (they advanced) and a feeling of challenge (but there's new stuff, the wolf is now a frost wolf)
But we're not in a single player game, we're in an MMO. Even in the harmless version, without forced PvP the problem already arises: how to accomodate both player types? The "scrubs" (click-"yeah"-types) will always be the majority, the "stop having fun guys" (yes, I got that from TV Tropes) will be the ones others try to copy. So a game needs both.
But so far nobody has found a solution that satisfies everybody. There are forced handicaps to somehow lift the lower ones up or push the higher ones down - what happens on Nimbus or in Red Alerts. But still, the better ones will be way better. And already somehow they have been punished.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
So we want to punish the players who have more skill, knowledge and have spent more resources (time and money investments etc.) and for being able to break down the game into good builds?
(...)
While the game has some inherent flaws the ball is on the players' court. You can tweak the game and streamline it as much as you want but you can never completely cure the human factor in it. No matter how much you make things equal and homogeneous gameplay wise people aren't 100% identical in how they play and perform in the game. Any sort of gameplay balancing will never solve the human factor. You are more likely to ruin the game if you believe you can solve it by just altering a heterogeneous or even a homogeneous game for that matter... over and over. Nerfing or excessive balancing is never a miracle solution.
I think these two parts of your post somewhat contradict themselves. And in my understanding of it, I agree with the latter.
I am not sure how those two parts contradict themselves? I merely made a rhetorical statement.
So we want to punish the players who have more skill, knowledge and have spent more resources (time and money investments etc.) and for being able to break down the game into good builds?
What you people forget is that everyone has "access" to these builds nonetheless... if they put the equal effort into acquiring them. The reason why a lot of people complain is because they want everything to be entirely free and simple to acquire. However, it does not alter the fact that it can be acquired by anyone. Sure, students and teenagers may lack the financials to support that type of campaign. A parent and family person may lack the time. A casual player may lack the motive and intentive to gain the skills and knowledge. But all of this is the reality of society and not entirely the fault of the game.
You just have to enter the Dyson ground battlezone and you will realize how weak players' own ground teams are and what type of BOFF combinations and equipment they have. 90% of them lack the overall investment in making their own NPC group really good and "that" is not the fault of the game.
Furthermore, damage will always be advantagerous to any build. The faster you kill, the less you need shields (science) and hull (engineer) to tank. Having good damage numbers is thus inherently always an advantage and that will never change regardless of the damage range and class. The same circumstance would occur with a 10-1000 DPS range or a 10K to 100K DPS range so adjusting that will never change this fact. Yes, some builds can tap into the damage advantage more (like tactical) and whether this is imbalance is debattable. The only way to solve that level of imbalance is to remove the damage class entirely (and the other classes for that matter)... and is that desirable for any MMO?
We could of course force everyone to have the exact same gear or streamline everything to be indifferent, but then people would complain that there is no variety and that everything is choreographed and scripted for them. Would that make things better? Yes, some combinations of gear, specialization trait (and other), ship are more optimal than other builds. This will always be the case unless you make the game entirely homogeneous. But then you would not have different classes and different skills of different categories (offensive, defensive, healing, crowd control etc.). Would that make a fun game? Some of you may now argue that the game is not fun in its current state, and that may be true. But if we made everything in the game indifferent then it would be even less fun.
While the game has some inherent flaws the ball is on the players' court. You can tweak the game and streamline it as much as you want but you can never completely cure the human factor in it. No matter how much you make things equal and homogeneous gameplay wise people aren't 100% identical in how they play and perform in the game. Any sort of gameplay balancing will never solve the human factor. You are more likely to ruin the game if you believe you can solve it by just altering a heterogeneous or even a homogeneous game for that matter... over and over. Nerfing or excessive balancing is never a miracle solution.
You just have to enter the Dyson ground battlezone and you will realize how weak players' own ground teams are and what type of BOFF combinations and equipment they have. 90% of them lack the overall investment in making their own NPC group really good and "that" is not the fault of the game.
Yes it is. The game is neither solving nor is it effectively mitigating against the issue, and the game is what creates and controls the issues that arise within it--any issues that emerge from the game's mechanics are directly caused by the game's design. This is known as design flaw. So it is absolutely the responsibility of the game design, and the developers. Further, to excuse the game's design from responsibility over the problems and issues that emerge as a result of that design is to suggest that the game design is flawless. If the vast majority of players are behaving a certain way within the game, as it relates to how they play the game and interact with its mechanics and features, it tends to be because the game has enabled and likely even encouraged this behavior, whatever the behavior may be.
Furthermore, damage will always be advantagerous to any build. The faster you kill, the less you need shields (science) and hull (engineer) to tank. Having good damage numbers is thus inherently always an advantage and that will never change regardless of the damage range and class. The same circumstance would occur with a 10-1000 DPS range or a 10K to 100K DPS range so adjusting that will never change this fact. Yes, some builds can tap into the damage advantage more (like tactical) and whether this is imbalance is debattable. The only way to solve that level of imbalance is to remove the damage class entirely (and the other classes for that matter)... and is that desirable for any MMO?
How is it debatable if you just conceded that damage is necessarily king, over both healing and tanking capability? It seems pretty clear by your own admission.
I'm also not sure how you jump to your last conclusion, either. The imbalance you refer to is a direct result of how the PvE content and character/ship classes are designed. Removing one or all classes is far from the only solution, if you can even truly call that a solution at all. It seems to me the problem lies in the design of the PvE content, which brings me back to my aforementioned point about what the game design enables and encourages from the players. If the PvE content was designed in such a way as to necessitate other roles besides simply DPS, players would adapt to that, just as they do in virtually every other MMO where the end-game PvE content necessarily requires tanks and healers as well as DPS.
We did an ISA run with 3 dps escorts, a tank and a healer. We did it in Tier 2 ships, and we succeeded with all the optionals. It required teamwork and everyone playing their role.
One of the issues is that this is 'Advanced', and we completed it with Tier 2 ships. There is no ISE anymore. And the worry is that all they would do is increase the hit points and resistances to the NPC's. That doesn't make things more of a challenge... they just take longer to kill!
We need Elite content, and it needs to be a challenge requiring co-ordination and teamwork.
It does seem as though the Devs are considering this though. Brotherhood of the Sword needs teamwork to activate the devices, and completing the optionals first. Viscous Cycle Elite doesn't really require DPS at all to complete. There are other things too that aren't entirely DPS driven, but they aren't played as much.
Most people hate Undine Infiltration... the whole first part of that (baring 1 of the optionals) is running around talking to people. It's so boring, and if 1 team member answers wrong, you fail the mission.
With regards to power creep... yes... it exists, and it has to exist! If Cryptic made didn't bring out new ships and gear that were better than what you already have, then why would you spend money on them? You'd stick with what you already have.... everyone would! So if no one buys the new stuff, Cryptic make no money, and the game dies. It's also the natural evolution of technology anyway... things advance and get better. That's why there shouldn't be a T6 Connie... it would make no sense for Starfleet to invest in outdated hardware, when it was already replaced several times over with ships like the Excelsior, Galaxy, Sovereign etc.
We did an ISA run with 3 dps escorts, a tank and a healer. We did it in Tier 2 ships, and we succeeded with all the optionals. It required teamwork and everyone playing their role.
One of the issues is that this is 'Advanced', and we completed it with Tier 2 ships. There is no ISE anymore. And the worry is that all they would do is increase the hit points and resistances to the NPC's. That doesn't make things more of a challenge... they just take longer to kill!
We need Elite content, and it needs to be a challenge requiring co-ordination and teamwork.
It does seem as though the Devs are considering this though. Brotherhood of the Sword needs teamwork to activate the devices, and completing the optionals first. Viscous Cycle Elite doesn't really require DPS at all to complete. There are other things too that aren't entirely DPS driven, but they aren't played as much.
Most people hate Undine Infiltration... the whole first part of that (baring 1 of the optionals) is running around talking to people. It's so boring, and if 1 team member answers wrong, you fail the mission.
With regards to power creep... yes... it exists, and it has to exist! If Cryptic made didn't bring out new ships and gear that were better than what you already have, then why would you spend money on them? You'd stick with what you already have.... everyone would! So if no one buys the new stuff, Cryptic make no money, and the game dies. It's also the natural evolution of technology anyway... things advance and get better. That's why there shouldn't be a T6 Connie... it would make no sense for Starfleet to invest in outdated hardware, when it was already replaced several times over with ships like the Excelsior, Galaxy, Sovereign etc.
I agree on the fact that this game needs harder content, and with harder I mean either PvP reboot, or exceptionally good artificial intelligence (even though players do have brains which are better than any AI, reworking PvP would go a long way).
Power creep cannot exist! It ruins the gameplay in every game! They need to add uniqueness, add more stuff and content that goes side-by-side in power with what already exists. Only that way you can get a balanced game that is fun to play, not punishing and that offers countless possibilities to their players.
If they made in Driveclub a paid Hyper class car that'd beat the living hell out of all the other Hyper class cars nobody would care about competitive racing, as it'd be that car or nothing.
If they added in Counter Strike a DLC weapon that'd murder every other one in game, nobody would care playing anymore in the long run.
Do you really think that for STO is any different?
Post edited by laferrari1 on
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
The problem is that there will always be an 'optimal' build strategy. One that works the best/quickest. Does that mean that all others aren't viable? Of course not!
I've just levelled up an engineer tank, purely because I didn't have one, and hadn't used one. It's been a real challenge to generate enough threat to pull aggro off some people. I'd love the threat mechanic to be altered so that my +TH consoles and APD doffs pulled even more aggro.
I also have a science pvp part gen toon, a ground engineer, a tactical caitian, and my main toon is flying T1 and T2 ships using torps at the moment.
There is plenty of build viability in the game, but most want to be spoon fed the build that gets the big numbers. That's not the game's fault, but the players.
With the right knowledge, abilities and teamwork, you can complete the majority of end game content with mid level ships using all free gear. Unfortunately, that takes time to learn, and accepting that you may not be awesome at the beginning. Many people forget that this is a game, and play it as they wish it was, rather than as it actually is.
I'm not saying I don't want things to be better in terms of balance. Of course I do. There are soooooo many irrelevant abilities and gear in the game now, that anyone coming in for the first time will be confused... I know I was when I first started! That's the biggest issue though... we all have access to the same stuff and abilities (although some faster than others), but the disparity between player ability is far too extreme. The only way to resolve that is through the sharing of knowledge... unfortunately, not everyone wants to learn, which is their choice, and no one should try to change it, but then the problem remains. It's basically why communism doesn't work... whilst it's great to treat everyone as equal and give everyone the same stuff... all people are not equal. We all have different idea, desires, needs, and levels of enthusiasm. The game can't be balanced when the players are so unbalanced.
Comments
There shouldn't be a "de facto" build of FAW/EPtW/Plasma Explosions/Kemocite if you can afford it.
There should always be (equally as) good alternatives; but right now, there aren't. Why?
Hardly a comprehensive list, but a list nonetheless. Of course you can make Cannons/Torps/Sci work, but you're artificially gimping yourself. Yes you can run them if you like them (duh), but the fact is that the conditions that led to you being gimped shouldn't exist in the first place.
And a lot of this could be fixed if Cryptic would just fix some longstanding bugs.
And if you can't defend yourself in a situation where your teammates aren't pulling high enough DPS, then you should be considering that it's really you who isn't balanced: pushing too much toward power and not enough towards survivability. "Balance" depends very much on what you want to get out of the game.
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Even now you enter a pug run through the public queues and its a complete lottery on what type of team you are going to get and the odds are more likely a bad one than a good one.
Martok once said "war is much more fun when you are winning" and i agree a game is much more fun when you are winning rather than losing.
Stop using the DPS guys as scapegoats for the games issues/power creep, they were smashing records long before Delta Rising and Mk XIV weapons. Why because they understand game mechanics and have TESTED what works best. All Cryptic have done is give EVERYONE not just the DPS guys but EVERYONE the ability to pull high dps. Some can, some can't, biggest issue isn't the power creep, is whiny little babies that can't, crying because others can.
Typical human behaviour, where i can't have/do what you can, so you shouldn't be able to either so lets take it away.
your post is also a typical human behavior
well, personally i left the dps channel. they are just boring and not challenging; pugs are more exciting, and when i enter in a totally failed ISA, i stay for helping the other players
the solidarity should be everywhere, not only in special channels
read before you comment. OP is talking about PVE not PVP
Agreed on all points. Instead of making things balanced the devs simply made beams the highest DPS category instead of DHC. It's very lazy.
I'm not a DPSer. My main is an engineer, I haven't upgraded a single thing yet, and my favorite ships are still escorts/warbirds with DHC and a single foreward torpedo. I can push about 13k max DPS right now (betweek 12k-13k). I started using that kind of ship years ago, wound up loving that gameplay and do not want to change it even though it's not nearly as effective anymore.
Why is my DPS so low and why haven't I upgraded anything yet? Well a few reasons. First, I don't care about the DPS race. This isn't a PvP game where it would matter. If there's an upgrade weekend in the future I might upgrade some things, we'll see. I have fun with my engineers in DHC escorts and in ground maps with turrets and mines and things. Second, I'm not willing to spend EC or real-life money to acquire the expensive items needed for high DPS. A single kemocite I costs over 100m EC, a plasmonic leech is between 80m-90m, and I have about 50m total across all characters. I haven't opened a lockbox since the uncommon cardassian boxes. I have virtually no lobi for any lobi consoles, ships or gear. I bought the DR pack with dilithium and that's the only significant c-store purchase I've made. Yes I know I can convert dilithium to EC and can sell crafting components etc. to make EC but because I don't care about the DPS race I don't care about acquiring that much EC.
I don't feel this game is worth spending money on. It's fun but it's not so great that I'll spend money on it. I have fun with my 10k-13k DPS engineers in their ineffective DHC escorts that I get to play for free. The devs have never gotten the MMO trinity of DPS/tank/healer correct and in fact stopped bothering long ago, which left engineers far behind in space (my summation on how engineers can be made viable in space can be found here: http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1196327/the-engineer-class-from-a-different-point-of-view#latest). Development decisions are guided by metrics which is a nice way of saying "we work on what will make us the most money, not on what's best for the game," and I suspect metrics are one of the reasons why such terrible mechanics as overcapping have not been addressed.
I pug advanced and in my experience they fail not because of a lack of DPS but because of what I can usually say is "trolling." Some people may not be familiar with ISA but I'm sure many of us who've pugged it have seen an individual or a pair in the same fleet go destroy the generators in ISA on their own, and you'd swear they're doing it on purpose because there's no other explanation. I'm not talking a high DPS scimitar trying to solo one side, I'm talking people who will destroy a single generator on the right side while the rest of the team is busy with the left transformer, or will rush ahead and pop a generator before everyone is ready.
You'd swear these people just said in their fleet chat "I'm bored, who wants to go troll ISA with me?"
You actually don't need a lot of DPS for ISA to succeed with all optionals, you just need people willing to do things in the proper order and be lucky enough if your pugging to not get bored teammates only there to troll.
Trolling ISA became popular the day they changed it from ISE to ISA and the optionals became mandatory. It seems to still be a popular way for bored people to frustrate others.
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What you people forget is that everyone has "access" to these builds nonetheless... if they put the equal effort into acquiring them. The reason why a lot of people complain is because they want everything to be entirely free and simple to acquire. However, it does not alter the fact that it can be acquired by anyone. Sure, students and teenagers may lack the financials to support that type of campaign. A parent and family person may lack the time. A casual player may lack the motive and intentive to gain the skills and knowledge. But all of this is the reality of society and not entirely the fault of the game.
You just have to enter the Dyson ground battlezone and you will realize how weak players' own ground teams are and what type of BOFF combinations and equipment they have. 90% of them lack the overall investment in making their own NPC group really good and "that" is not the fault of the game.
Furthermore, damage will always be advantagerous to any build. The faster you kill, the less you need shields (science) and hull (engineer) to tank. Having good damage numbers is thus inherently always an advantage and that will never change regardless of the damage range and class. The same circumstance would occur with a 10-1000 DPS range or a 10K to 100K DPS range so adjusting that will never change this fact. Yes, some builds can tap into the damage advantage more (like tactical) and whether this is imbalance is debattable. The only way to solve that level of imbalance is to remove the damage class entirely (and the other classes for that matter)... and is that desirable for any MMO?
We could of course force everyone to have the exact same gear or streamline everything to be indifferent, but then people would complain that there is no variety and that everything is choreographed and scripted for them. Would that make things better? Yes, some combinations of gear, specialization trait (and other), ship are more optimal than other builds. This will always be the case unless you make the game entirely homogeneous. But then you would not have different classes and different skills of different categories (offensive, defensive, healing, crowd control etc.). Would that make a fun game? Some of you may now argue that the game is not fun in its current state, and that may be true. But if we made everything in the game indifferent then it would be even less fun.
While the game has some inherent flaws the ball is on the players' court. You can tweak the game and streamline it as much as you want but you can never completely cure the human factor in it. No matter how much you make things equal and homogeneous gameplay wise people aren't 100% identical in how they play and perform in the game. Any sort of gameplay balancing will never solve the human factor. You are more likely to ruin the game if you believe you can solve it by just altering a heterogeneous or even a homogeneous game for that matter... over and over. Nerfing or excessive balancing is never a miracle solution.
There's so very many ways to make this game ridiculously fun to play, including what you mention, and the endless ideas many of us have scattered in these forums, but they get overlooked.
Why?
I believe it's about control and finances. Providing a multitude of gameplay options, including fixed PvP and PvP/E, persistent territory control, sandbox environments, etc., empowers the players to have fun without having to rely on much else, and therefore in ways that will no longer be easy to run metrics on, predict, and monetize.
Please show me a place in STO where diminishing returns happens with damage? I don't know of any. Please explain and show an example.
The only enforced form of diminishing returns on damage is in how tactical consoles are applied and even that is a side effect of how they are applied. while you can argue range drop off, any pilot that cares about driving maximum numbers is quite capable of rubbing their hull against their target.
The only hard limiting factors I can see to a determined team are weapon power's effect cap of 125, how far they can drive negative resist, which last I checked was around 200% and enemy HP. The last two of those are constantly increasing. While one could argue that at any given time console and boff power limits the effect of weapon power, I would argue that both of those values increase with every addition to the game.
For those who say this can't be fixed by changing a few numbers. This issue can never be fixed, it's a design intention that power can be sold in ever increasing amounts however how damage is calculated and the source numbers used in those calculations can be modified to level the playing field more. For example science powers could be reconfigured to draw power from particle generators and aux power rather than base damage which would give science players more benefit. Tactical powers like APA should be limited in their effect on unconventional forms of damage giving science players a further edge when using 'their' powers, it would also allow for such powers to gain large buffs to their damage potential further helping experienced and inexperienced players alike.
Of course people want to associate with winners than losing and wasting time. But the fault lies with people not communicating like they use to with the Original STF (before they were queues), and Cryptic creating Queues where soloists are now suddenly in a team situation.
Making them as escape goats is an excuse, its no different than saying drug pushers aren't responsible for people using illegal drugs.
These DPSers are responsible. They're promoting DPS by openly bragging about it as far back as the NWS videos, causing them to have a following, creating a clique (DPS channels) and promoting it as "the best way to play the STO". Even worse, some of the Devs added to the problem in joining them and giving these "DPS Masters" testing rights where they purposely fail to report loopholes that allow them to increase their DPS further when an item makes it live. I know, because some of them actually told me.
And lets not forget the effect it has caused in STO in the past year:
So yes, its DPSers fault for pushing the bar too far and Cryptic not putting their foot down. Everyone else shouldn't be punished for not playing the game how you guys want it. Every build in the game should have viablility. Every ship in the game should be viable. So if I want to fly with a Scimitar with a Cannon build, I shouldn't be called a moron for that build. I shouldn't be told that science ships are weak and should fly an Avenger. I shouldn't get yelled at for using Science Powers that isn't heal-related. And I shouldn't get punished an AFKer because a DPSer does all the killing.
This power creep is getting to dangerous levels and Salami, it's time you act. This is suposed to be an MMO, not an online Arcade.
I'm not sure why the sudden hate on DPSers and before you think I'm a DPS fanboy you're mistaken. Everything was adjusted to account for the new content when the cap was raised. They knew that NWS would become a farm because the rank of the weapons going to Mk 14 with upgrades to epic not because DPSers did it. I've been in STFs where I was easily the least dps but still never got punished for AFK because my dps was too low. As long as you do something in an STF provide some sort of consistent damage you will be fine.
Now I want you to think about what you're asking Cryptic to do here. You are essentially asking them to nerf DPS across the board not just Tac but Eng and Sci as well. Why all three classes because its an equation in order to keep everything balanced you have to adjust all aspects. They adjust things in order to keep everything balanced why do you think the new Hyper Shield drained so fast.
Yes, this game is an MMO but what MMO have you played where DPS is not the key to winning. Every MMO I have played DPS is the key along with a good team. There are some MMOs that do focus on the team aspect but your DPS is always going to be the one that wins it for you. The way I see it the DPSers have the hardest job in the team and thats to keep damage up so the team doesn't wipe before heals run out.
Lastlly, you really shouldn't let people bother you saying you need to use this build or play this way. People will bring down other people in any video game because of the competition and an ego aspect. Just play the game the way you want but also understand there is some work involved to getting good DPS or any stat for that matter. Don't give into peer pressure if thats not how you want to play.
Everyone has the same chance to get good gear and stats. If you don't like your stats then do something about it. If these people want to play heavy DPS let them its how they enjoy the game.
Let's say you have two "viable" doctors to choose from for your surgery: One carries a kit full of scalpels, forceps, saws, bite blocks, and a bottle of whiskey. The other has a state-of-the-art, fully-equipped office and lab. Would you really say "it doesn't matter" in this case, or would you make the obvious choice and choose the optimal one?
In STO, choosing "optimal" over "viable" means engaging in more of the game's content without the headache of constantly getting blown up by things that would be trivial had you taken the superior path instead of an inferior one.
But almost every build can be viable and the requirements to complete an advanced stf isn't that high.
A lot of the posts complaining about build viability are mixing up viable for optimal. Viable means good enough to succeed at the game's content. That is true for almost any of the builds. You do not even need a lot of real world or in-game cash to do it (see MBagel's Cheep Deeps series for sub 1M EC builds that can do 20-30k DPS).
I may not have played prior to DR, but right now the diversity of builds that are good enough for advanced content has never been wider. Science, tank, torps, cannons and canon builds are viable now even for Elite. The powercreep that everyone is complaining about here actually helped those builds in my view.
And as a science captain flying a science ship that is using a weapons loadout that isn't going to get top DPS, no one has ever called me a moron or pushed me to switch to a cruiser. I have gotten nothing but good advice on how to maximize my potential from the various communities in the game (even the DPS channels).
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I most certainly agree. I'd pick out the particular thing that I agree with more, but they are all so high on my list, none is a clear frontrunner.
I think these two parts of your post somewhat contradict themselves. And in my understanding of it, I agree with the latter.
Whatever game you make, there will be people who are good at it, people who are decent, people who suck, people who just don't care. Even if you make the goalposts movable so people can decide what they're aiming at, differences will prevail.
This is very fine for a single player game, let's say Civ V without multiplayer mode. Some players will be happy to just play their civ on the easiest level. Click, something happens, an hour spent enjoying it. Some players will try to beat the hardest difficulty with the worst civ possible. The latter group will even be divided into people who accept all mechanics and those who deem some "cheesy". (Anyone who knows the game "Europa Universalis" III or IV will know about the Ryukyu World Domination thing). There sometimes even is a problem in them, think RPGs like Skyrim. People will level, technically but also gameplay wise, so how do I at the same time give them a feeling of accomplishment (they advanced) and a feeling of challenge (but there's new stuff, the wolf is now a frost wolf)
But we're not in a single player game, we're in an MMO. Even in the harmless version, without forced PvP the problem already arises: how to accomodate both player types? The "scrubs" (click-"yeah"-types) will always be the majority, the "stop having fun guys" (yes, I got that from TV Tropes) will be the ones others try to copy. So a game needs both.
But so far nobody has found a solution that satisfies everybody. There are forced handicaps to somehow lift the lower ones up or push the higher ones down - what happens on Nimbus or in Red Alerts. But still, the better ones will be way better. And already somehow they have been punished.
Agreed.
Yes it is. The game is neither solving nor is it effectively mitigating against the issue, and the game is what creates and controls the issues that arise within it--any issues that emerge from the game's mechanics are directly caused by the game's design. This is known as design flaw. So it is absolutely the responsibility of the game design, and the developers. Further, to excuse the game's design from responsibility over the problems and issues that emerge as a result of that design is to suggest that the game design is flawless. If the vast majority of players are behaving a certain way within the game, as it relates to how they play the game and interact with its mechanics and features, it tends to be because the game has enabled and likely even encouraged this behavior, whatever the behavior may be.
How is it debatable if you just conceded that damage is necessarily king, over both healing and tanking capability? It seems pretty clear by your own admission.
I'm also not sure how you jump to your last conclusion, either. The imbalance you refer to is a direct result of how the PvE content and character/ship classes are designed. Removing one or all classes is far from the only solution, if you can even truly call that a solution at all. It seems to me the problem lies in the design of the PvE content, which brings me back to my aforementioned point about what the game design enables and encourages from the players. If the PvE content was designed in such a way as to necessitate other roles besides simply DPS, players would adapt to that, just as they do in virtually every other MMO where the end-game PvE content necessarily requires tanks and healers as well as DPS.
One of the issues is that this is 'Advanced', and we completed it with Tier 2 ships. There is no ISE anymore. And the worry is that all they would do is increase the hit points and resistances to the NPC's. That doesn't make things more of a challenge... they just take longer to kill!
We need Elite content, and it needs to be a challenge requiring co-ordination and teamwork.
It does seem as though the Devs are considering this though. Brotherhood of the Sword needs teamwork to activate the devices, and completing the optionals first. Viscous Cycle Elite doesn't really require DPS at all to complete. There are other things too that aren't entirely DPS driven, but they aren't played as much.
Most people hate Undine Infiltration... the whole first part of that (baring 1 of the optionals) is running around talking to people. It's so boring, and if 1 team member answers wrong, you fail the mission.
With regards to power creep... yes... it exists, and it has to exist! If Cryptic made didn't bring out new ships and gear that were better than what you already have, then why would you spend money on them? You'd stick with what you already have.... everyone would! So if no one buys the new stuff, Cryptic make no money, and the game dies. It's also the natural evolution of technology anyway... things advance and get better. That's why there shouldn't be a T6 Connie... it would make no sense for Starfleet to invest in outdated hardware, when it was already replaced several times over with ships like the Excelsior, Galaxy, Sovereign etc.
I agree on the fact that this game needs harder content, and with harder I mean either PvP reboot, or exceptionally good artificial intelligence (even though players do have brains which are better than any AI, reworking PvP would go a long way).
Power creep cannot exist! It ruins the gameplay in every game! They need to add uniqueness, add more stuff and content that goes side-by-side in power with what already exists. Only that way you can get a balanced game that is fun to play, not punishing and that offers countless possibilities to their players.
If they made in Driveclub a paid Hyper class car that'd beat the living hell out of all the other Hyper class cars nobody would care about competitive racing, as it'd be that car or nothing.
If they added in Counter Strike a DLC weapon that'd murder every other one in game, nobody would care playing anymore in the long run.
Do you really think that for STO is any different?
I've just levelled up an engineer tank, purely because I didn't have one, and hadn't used one. It's been a real challenge to generate enough threat to pull aggro off some people. I'd love the threat mechanic to be altered so that my +TH consoles and APD doffs pulled even more aggro.
I also have a science pvp part gen toon, a ground engineer, a tactical caitian, and my main toon is flying T1 and T2 ships using torps at the moment.
There is plenty of build viability in the game, but most want to be spoon fed the build that gets the big numbers. That's not the game's fault, but the players.
With the right knowledge, abilities and teamwork, you can complete the majority of end game content with mid level ships using all free gear. Unfortunately, that takes time to learn, and accepting that you may not be awesome at the beginning. Many people forget that this is a game, and play it as they wish it was, rather than as it actually is.
I'm not saying I don't want things to be better in terms of balance. Of course I do. There are soooooo many irrelevant abilities and gear in the game now, that anyone coming in for the first time will be confused... I know I was when I first started! That's the biggest issue though... we all have access to the same stuff and abilities (although some faster than others), but the disparity between player ability is far too extreme. The only way to resolve that is through the sharing of knowledge... unfortunately, not everyone wants to learn, which is their choice, and no one should try to change it, but then the problem remains. It's basically why communism doesn't work... whilst it's great to treat everyone as equal and give everyone the same stuff... all people are not equal. We all have different idea, desires, needs, and levels of enthusiasm. The game can't be balanced when the players are so unbalanced.