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bad balance design has ruined PVE, more power creep + S8 all over again.
pulserazor
Member Posts: 590 Arc User
Let me explain how Cryptic has ruined their game by making terrible design choices.
The most glaring culprit today is kemocite laced weaponry, which is enabling players to score 100k dps, which is enough dps to complete a run SOLO. Thats all well and good, and I am all for Cryptic making money by selling power, but this is way out of balance. The problem is this: When you have a player who can score that much damage, it becomes unnecessary for them join with other players who have a clue how to make a build or play the game. SO, it becomes faster and eaiser for them to join public ques where it really doesent matter what anyone else does. The 4 hapless idiots in the run with the mega 100k dps build dont even realize how terrible they are, so they think its cool for them to join public advanced ques while they can pull 800 - 2000 dps. (in a t6 ship no less) Now, when the mega kemocite/faw scimitar etc isnt around, suddenly my 20-30k (in a t5 sci without faw I might add) isnt going to be enough to pull 4 idiots through a simple ISA run, and even with 5 -thr consoles I cant open fire without the entire map focusing me down.
Its wrong of me to call these players who join advanced ques when they are not ready for them idiots, because it isnt entirely their fault. People in general are pretty dense. Cryptic has created this problem by making the rewards for normal compete rubbish, so no one has any desire to play them, and like I said, the power creep preventing them from appreciating how terrible they are.
That said, I cant even imagine how it is possible to not be able to score 1k dps, but I see it every day.
PSA: if you cant pull at least 8k dps it is impolite of you to join a public que on advanced or elite, because all you are doing is wasting other people's time, and your own.
But cryptic has created this mess, and we all know they dont have the technical acumen or creativity to clean it up, and no one will ever read this thread after it gets buried because they have effectively censored theie entire forums by masking it from google searches with this vanilla / arc garbage.
Im finished.
The most glaring culprit today is kemocite laced weaponry, which is enabling players to score 100k dps, which is enough dps to complete a run SOLO. Thats all well and good, and I am all for Cryptic making money by selling power, but this is way out of balance. The problem is this: When you have a player who can score that much damage, it becomes unnecessary for them join with other players who have a clue how to make a build or play the game. SO, it becomes faster and eaiser for them to join public ques where it really doesent matter what anyone else does. The 4 hapless idiots in the run with the mega 100k dps build dont even realize how terrible they are, so they think its cool for them to join public advanced ques while they can pull 800 - 2000 dps. (in a t6 ship no less) Now, when the mega kemocite/faw scimitar etc isnt around, suddenly my 20-30k (in a t5 sci without faw I might add) isnt going to be enough to pull 4 idiots through a simple ISA run, and even with 5 -thr consoles I cant open fire without the entire map focusing me down.
Its wrong of me to call these players who join advanced ques when they are not ready for them idiots, because it isnt entirely their fault. People in general are pretty dense. Cryptic has created this problem by making the rewards for normal compete rubbish, so no one has any desire to play them, and like I said, the power creep preventing them from appreciating how terrible they are.
That said, I cant even imagine how it is possible to not be able to score 1k dps, but I see it every day.
PSA: if you cant pull at least 8k dps it is impolite of you to join a public que on advanced or elite, because all you are doing is wasting other people's time, and your own.
But cryptic has created this mess, and we all know they dont have the technical acumen or creativity to clean it up, and no one will ever read this thread after it gets buried because they have effectively censored theie entire forums by masking it from google searches with this vanilla / arc garbage.
Im finished.
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Comments
*grabs popcorn*
I can also see that this is nothing less than steroids for trek, and an expensive brand at that.
Enemies need to be less of high resist HP bags and use more interesting mechanics instead if dps goes down.
More special abilities used by enemies, less raw player AND enemy dps as well as less enemy HP and resistances.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
agreed
The issue in this thread is that TC does not grasp the entire picture on why there is such a huge power creep in the game - very few people do. The power creep exists because of several compounded factors that if not precisely min-maxed then will not provide the DPS that people brag that they do.
To be clear you need to
1. Fly a specific ship (There are many ships that can fill this role).
2. Be of a specific profession (Tac)
3. Be of a specific alignment (Romulan)
4. Have the specific Starship Masteries (AHOD, Emergency Weapons Cycle, Reciprocity, Supremacy, ect)
5. Have mastered Specializations (specifically Intel)
6. Have Mk XIV gear (can be more than double damage output in some cases)
7. Have specific gear (Plasma Explosion Consoles, Plasmonic Leech, Conductive RCS w/ [EPS])
8. Have specific Bridge Officer Abilities (Kemo)
9. Have specific stat allocations that may not be obvious (Flow Caps, Crit)
10. Know of specific game mechanics such as overcapping which are not described anywhere.
11. Know what game mechanics do not work despite the game telling you they do (Accuracy Overflow)
12. Have specific Duty Officers, many times they are extremely expensive, other times they aren't.
13. Having specific Bridge officers (specifically Krenim Researchers, Pirates and SROs)
14. Invest in specific consumables that may not be obvious (e.g. nukara web breakers, Deuterium Surplus)
All of these stack to create a very powerful DPS creep. It's a series of checking off some very expensive boxes, which I stopped caring about ages ago.
Nobody will make a topic that specifically captures this issues because there are so many damn issues. None of them are game breaking alone, but all/most of them compounded break the game.
all of that is too true.
Problem has always been players. Different wants, knowledge, skill set. Put them together with a game like STO with too many choices, you end up with different DPS. If a player is too lazy, too ignorant, or chooses their playerstyle, or with whining attitude, you end up lower end of the DPS.
Cannot fix balance in game if you cannot fix balance in players. But I suppose you all know this by know but want to blame mechanics instead of the person in the mirror.
Why is the queue dead?
They were very much active (and fun) until...
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
But the players loved it.
While i agree with you I blame poor balance on numerous things. I might get a warning or temp ban from the forums but here it goes.
1. STO's lead designer as gone on record on not havethe fame balance through the holy trinity(tank, healer, DPS). balnce will never happen without this mechanic.
2. Since number one is true class balance has been to assign more dps to the none dps classes. All this does is give tactical captains an advantage, with APA, GDF, and Tac Fleet they buff everything. Another balance issue.
3. With 1 and 2 being true leads me to think someone at Cryptic is a very bad tactical captain.
While the high end elite dps crowd understand game mechanics very well and I am not trying to take anything away from their understanding of game mechanics. They dont have a real dps. Real dps is measure over 5-15 minutes not 30-90 seconds. There specialty runs are fun to watch but the numbers are artificially inflated by and deliberate misuse of GDF and usually always have a Recluse. (I believe in a nerf to GDF where warpcore damage cannot trigger it).
Game fixes that could repair this game:
1. APA, GDF, and Tac Fleet only buffs weapons damage.
2. Threat is based on hull, shields, and DPS. Bigger ships like dreads,carriers, and cruisers will have threat modifiers.
3. No respawning on PvE maps. Change the crew mechanic to be a repair crew. Your ship will now be disabled until another ship can lower its shields and beam its repair crew over. Should take 10 seconds. Add tractor beams to tow a ship to safety for a reduction and a chance of not doing it under in combat, but give the option to do in combat.
4. The EP at Crytpic needs to tell the lead design and force to put balance in the game.
5. The introduction of Tier 6 ships caused hull to raise. Helping cruisers. MK 14 weapons damage helped all ships. Mk 14 shields got no love so the science ship shield tanking has failed. Shields need to be increased along side of weapons at Mk 14.
6. Since the buff to in point 5 heals need to be increased. Heals are all based off tier 5 ships with mk 12 shields and damage being done with mk 12 weapons. With the introduction tier 6 ships and damage from mk 14 weapons heals have bean nerfed, I think this is an over sight.
7. Spec point earned needs to be account bound. Every time a players character unlocks a spec point it is earned account wide. Needs to work more like the Champion System in Elder's Scrolls Online.
This game would be awesome if game mechanics were balanced. Through balance all aspects of the game improves. This game has a chance to be a great MMO and prior to season 8 I thought it was. I have since started looking into new MMOs looking for balance. I still play STO.
Perhaps you are playing sci wrong. In my 20k dps Sci Captain, Sci Ship build I can carry 4 other low dps just fine with both Ops.
If you are a Tact pretending to be a sci, that is your first mistake. If you are a Sci pretending to be a Tact this would be your second mistake. But however with a proper GW a Sci playing as a Sci, can carry a team thorough Infected just fine.
easy answer!
until... the game start nerf as chucknorris.
now... serious, i lost so many friends coz them were tired of so many nerfs.
And ofc only nerf isnt the reason, and i wont say all reasons could be.
and i agree with u before was so fun, and now if u look the forum u ll find at last 3 topics saying "dps" ... wew...
the gaming community have changed how to think, how to have fun, maybe also the dps chasing made some ppls to quit coz cant afford with all these expensive mechanic, gears, ..., upgrade system and them dun wanna stay playing a game w/o have the same chance as the "p2w".
something i just have remember now, who remember when dhc accx3 was 75m? hoho... good times.. now i ask, how i can make 75m playing pve?
I find it funny when people talk about balance in this game. Cryptic makes its money by selling broken overpowered stuff to the masses. That's what this game is all about...the next super power.
I agree that people should be able to produce a certain DPS number before politely joining advanced. I personally think that is either 10k or 5k+gravity well. Neither is particularly difficult.
I do not think the issue is power creep. While some people see it as "power creep", I simply see it as progression. It is what motivates me to keep playing. I doubt I would if I always had the best gear and nothing new came out. I think the problem with people always joining advanced queues is simply that everybody feels special and that they are the best player. If anyone shows that there are areas that they could potentially improve, they are simply labeled as a "DPS troll" or an elitest and placed on ignore. This thread blaming people who improve their own DPS is part of the problem.
Despite how it is treated by players, the "advanced" and "elite" difficulties on the queues are in fact designed to cater to the "advanced" and "elite" players. By definition, not everybody can be advanced. Some people are just normal. Whether or not people like it, the goal of the vast majority of content in the game (especially ISA) is to kill the enemy. And again, whether or not people like it, the fastest/most efficient way to kill an enemy is to produce a lot of damage per second (DPS). Cryptic providing the tools to do this better with "power creep" is not the cause of all of the queues being empty.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
There is diminishing returns. Dont know why players keep insisting there is none. But the common things players who keep insisting there is no diminishing returns at offense are not even top Dog DPSers to realize there is a ceiling, ankle biters I suppose?
It is harder to achieve the DPS ceiling than other ceilings like resistance. A noob can achieve 75% resistance but a noob cannot achieve optimal DPS.
That is not even decent DPS. That is top dog DPS. All posters here should feel noobish that they cannot do 100k+ in torps.
All hail the Torp Master!
God forbid we would actually require dedicated tanks and support ships.
And then Cryptic says that science ships sell bad. LOL. Of course they do you geniuses who poluted the game with unbelievable power creep.
And I'm also blaming the dps cultists and zealots. Those anoying folks that spam their macros with dps results at the end of pugs just to tell everyone how great they were and how the rest sucks.
Cool list, I would even add “Some very few fitting reputation set pieces for ship's core systems (Ico 3,4 pice, Nukara 2 pice, Romulan engine)" to it.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Why in the world would they be to blame? They just motivate players to improve and do not call for everybody to make 100k DPS. Many in my surrounding have improved over it and I can ensure you that one does not need god mode DPS to be successful in STO. If everybody in a group averages around 30k advanced mode already becomes a joke.
As for your question to have more alternatives to DPS, we already do have it! Look at Vicious Cycle Elite for example. Over the 30/30 challenge one of my fleetmates who has beaten the goal decided to use his gained knowledge to start building a tank. He is “only” in the 30k DPS range with it but it’s enough already for our teams. Another one improved his DPS a lot by familiarising with the ambush ability of cloaking stuff. If I team up with those two I just need to assign the obvious roles and could AFK in VCE wile team-members 4 and 5 just need to watch and learn.
I think variety is around in STO, I just feel that most peeps simply want the direct pew pew results. They want more DPS and I think that’s ok too.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
On the other hand I fully respect that someone tries to be "best" and have as highest dps as possible. But imho, I feel the game should be balanced / have content based around the average users and offer chalenging content via anything else but hps inflation of NPCs.
"Is it strong?"
"Uh, maybe a little too--"
"Good, ship it. The whales will love it!"
Too many of the items and abilities in this game are complete garbage and not worth using because little effort has been made to balance things properly. It's like we have all these build options, but most people take pretty much the same things unless they don't know any better or just want to be different/etc. Tac team, faw, kemocite if they have it, blah blah etc.
You can blame the people who crunch numbers to max out their DPS and share the results all you want, but if anything, they're the ones who are catching that this imbalance exists in the first place. Game theory is part of human nature, and while some people are content to just throw the latest set + basic weapons on their ship, others are going to be crunching numbers to optimize their performance. If the game was designed a little better, optimizing like this wouldn't result in such huge discrepancies.
Ah oki, I feel the same there.
On the one hand I also saw the moth long arrogance and elitist attitude of some of the DPS peeps especially here in the forums. It turned me quiet off from the whole topic.
Later on I got to know a few peeps an found them extremely helpful to better understand game mechanics and cope with the current situation in PvE. PvE for me often means going in with new and inexperienced players (from fleet) and/or pugs as well. Like usually others in my fleets are on equal terms and some of course are better. DPS and the strife for it is appealing to me because it got me into a position where I can play “uninterrupted” in PvE. See, if two peeps in my team only manage 3k DPS because they have no clue I can compensate with one of my 50k builds very easily and make it a fun match for them and for me. Sure they get curious about it and I can tell them how it works and what options are available to get better.
When my knowledge reaches its limits (and of course it does) I tend to those who have a deeper one and who have the same urge to help me and others improve. In many cases it’s the players who organized the 30/30 challenge.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Was in a Borg Red Alert today and the Unimatrix ship died in less than 30 seconds, that's just with a random, uncoordinated group or players using pretty standard builds. It took longer to kill the groups of cubes than the big boss ship.
That's power-creep for you...
What is an average player? What happens if your basis of an average player isnt an average player but bottom non average player?
If you actually looked at this game, majority of this game is catered for lower skilled players not top DPS. Because if this game were catered for non average users or elitists, most of the players here wont be able to play elites nor advance. check the difficulty difference between the current ISA vs current HSE. Vast difference of difficulty. If most of STFs were for elite players, most of it were HSE like. But it is quite opposite. Most of STFs are ISA like level or lower difficulty.
The problem with your last phrase is challenge and your definition of an average player dont go well hand in hand. Spoiled and self entitled players cannot in a way be upto to the challenge. Look at the ISA pre advance nerf. It posed a challenge for players to bring support but players didnt want that simple challenge at all. And it didnt require any form of DPS. It merely required common sense.
Look at the different thread re: Azure nebula right now in the forums. Player complaining about how difficulty it is, even though it doesnt require DPS to complete it. Just common sense.
Because if your defintion of average player = non dps challenge, then VCE, Azure Advance, Borg Disconnect, Gateway to grethor should be more popular than ISA by this time due to phases of it or all of not requiring DPS.
If your statement were true challenge=average player, then the advance nerf months ago shouldnt have proceeded at all.
The discrepancies arent really huge if you look at it objectively. The nature of difference is difficulty of piloting/or spread of knowledge of mechanics. For beams, these are cookie cutter builds with ease of use at its epicenter.
You cannot have diversity and not have differences. If you dont have differences, you dont have diversity.
The question of balance is an overused, overdiluted statement. Everything here is viable. However, one or few are optimal. So the question would be, why would we want to "balance" optimal stuff when everything is balanced in viability.
You mean...like the days before DPS? When people actually worked as a /gasp Team?
Quite the opposite. When the dps inflation allows people to quickly finish some STFs by themself, lazy people will flock to those for quick rewards while ignoring the other queues. This has nothing to do with average players though.
as long as you know what you are doing you don't need 100K dps.. 30 is way more than enough.
Piloting + positioning + hostiles positions + what to take out first + what to hold back with CC abilities and you're set even the if the 4 others do 5k combined.
it's just gonna take a lot longer.. and if you don't want to wait don't join public ques