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Plasma Explosion Embassy Consoles - BFAW & Crits

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  • eionpeionp Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    Personally, I am happy anytime abused mechanics get balanced. Getting a crit on plasma damage doesn't seem to be the intended effect of those consoles.

    Guys read the thread. It was working as intended with faw. Not an abused mechanic.
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    LOL :lol: At this point I don't know wheather to die laughing, start crying or bang my head against my keyboard. :o

    On one hand, we have Cryptic, who keep releasing broken stuff and then outright admit that they don't have the manpower or resources to fix/correct the broken stuff they release, while they're probably going to release more broken stuff which they won't have resources to fix. LMAO :lol:

    On the other hand, we have a rather significant amount of certain players, who don't give a damn if they're helping/supporting to run this game into the ground as long as they keep their 'support wheels' which they obviously so desperately need in order to conquer the world's most simplistic AI.
    First it was the KDF - they raged against the KDF when KDF asked for anything because "KDF is a small portion of the playerbase and Feds are your dedicated customers, so shut up!". Then they raged against PvP because "PvP is niche in this game, a small community and nobody wants to PvP in STO and PvEers are most dedicated costumers, so shut up!". Now it has become "Cannon, torpedo and everything besides FAW/beam users are a small portion of the playerbase and DPSers are your most dedicated costumers, so shut up!" LOL :lol:
    What's next - people that have characters with beards deserve to have crippling bugs in game because they're small portion of the playerbase and characters without beards are yout most dedicated players??? :p

    You just can't make up stuff like this, this place, this "community".....it's hillarious. :D
    HQroeLu.jpg
  • mmps1mmps1 Member Posts: 381 Arc User

    Yeah...still doesn't negate the fact that the fix is even worse than the problem it *fixed*...that for a simple proc it was rampantly over powered...plus it could be stacked...where plasma doping required you to use this console and specific damage consoles all you have to do is stack a few of these...but you know what...

    I'm sorry...I'm completely wrong...I'm sorry that your 50 - 100k crits from a single console which is easy obtainable are gone...I'm sorry that many of you wont be able to stand without your crutch.


    That's ok, your apology is accepted.


    "Mr talks down to the peasants."
  • primar13primar13 Member Posts: 1,896 Bug Hunter
    Just imagine... They could have also limited you to one of these consoles...
  • sarcasmdetectorsarcasmdetector Member Posts: 1,176 Media Corps
    mmps1 wrote: »

    Yeah...still doesn't negate the fact that the fix is even worse than the problem it *fixed*...that for a simple proc it was rampantly over powered...plus it could be stacked...where plasma doping required you to use this console and specific damage consoles all you have to do is stack a few of these...but you know what...

    I'm sorry...I'm completely wrong...I'm sorry that your 50 - 100k crits from a single console which is easy obtainable are gone...I'm sorry that many of you wont be able to stand without your crutch.


    That's ok, your apology is accepted.


    50 - 100k crits are nothing compared to the 6million+ HP NPC
  • captrod71captrod71 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    Again, no problem with balance as long as it was done properly and in a timely manner. not after years of them being out, endless weeks of grinding for resources, dilithium, energy credits and whatever else they require to upgrade. on top of it all, to do this right after the technology bonus weekend when they know damn well all the zen and dill was used to make use of the bonus weekend. this is abuse on cryptics part against the players and shows they dont care by not making reasonable and timely adjustments because they are "short handed" or whatever the ongoing reason is at the time
  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Short version: Because it can't work the other way. Not with the time our software engineers have to spend on rebuilding powers of this nature.

    Crits were disabled in order to bring parity, and there should definitely have been a patch note (I'm investigating why it may not have been included). If we had all the time in the world, we'd make it so these powers had the opportunity to land a Critical Hit regardless of your firing mode. But that is not the reality in which we live.

    Yikes. So, all those consoles got a 70% nerf, just like that?! Would it surprise you to learn that this upsets me?! You already fixed them before, and it's only after that, that I started making mine all Epic.

    I was inclined to blame the poster who started this whole 'I want plasma consoles nerfed', but, in all fairness, I don't think even he had this in mind.

    If you're referring to me, you're correct - I don't think this is the right move either. I'd much rather have the severity of the Crits reduced, but have it able to (properly) Crit with everything

    And you must think I'm way more important than I am, if you think that all it takes is just a single thread from me to get them nerfed ;)
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    shpoks wrote: »
    LOL :lol: At this point I don't know wheather to die laughing, start crying or bang my head against my keyboard. :o

    On one hand, we have Cryptic, who keep releasing broken stuff and then outright admit that they don't have the manpower or resources to fix/correct the broken stuff they release, while they're probably going to release more broken stuff which they won't have resources to fix. LMAO :lol:

    On the other hand, we have a rather significant amount of certain players, who don't give a damn if they're helping/supporting to run this game into the ground as long as they keep their 'support wheels' which they obviously so desperately need in order to conquer the world's most simplistic AI.
    First it was the KDF - they raged against the KDF when KDF asked for anything because "KDF is a small portion of the playerbase and Feds are your dedicated customers, so shut up!". Then they raged against PvP because "PvP is niche in this game, a small community and nobody wants to PvP in STO and PvEers are most dedicated costumers, so shut up!". Now it has become "Cannon, torpedo and everything besides FAW/beam users are a small portion of the playerbase and DPSers are your most dedicated costumers, so shut up!" LOL :lol:
    What's next - people that have characters with beards deserve to have crippling bugs in game because they're small portion of the playerbase and characters without beards are yout most dedicated players??? :p

    You just can't make up stuff like this, this place, this "community".....it's hillarious. :D

    I vote Doffers to be next. They've had it coming.

    I just hope this doesn't become the PvP vs PvE argument. This happened because of a PvE test. Snipey47a got the opposite end result but he was looking for parity. In a way it's hard to fault borticus on this too because they're down 2 programmers. I think everyone will agree Cryptic needs more staffing to maintain this game. They're obviously having trouble.

  • snipey47asnipey47a Member Posts: 485 Media Corps
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Short version: Because it can't work the other way. Not with the time our software engineers have to spend on rebuilding powers of this nature.

    Crits were disabled in order to bring parity, and there should definitely have been a patch note (I'm investigating why it may not have been included). If we had all the time in the world, we'd make it so these powers had the opportunity to land a Critical Hit regardless of your firing mode. But that is not the reality in which we live.

    Yikes. So, all those consoles got a 70% nerf, just like that?! Would it surprise you to learn that this upsets me?! You already fixed them before, and it's only after that, that I started making mine all Epic.

    I was inclined to blame the poster who started this whole 'I want plasma consoles nerfed', but, in all fairness, I don't think even he had this in mind.

    No, Kira, I never once thought they would break something that is working. However, I still stand by my initial convictions on trying to do something to get them fixed.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    Let's put aside that the change is intended to be temporary... What exactly are we losing here?

    I don't think this temporary change will affect the majority of players who put these consoles to good use enough that it will gimp them in majority of the game's content. Maybe some Elites like Hive and GGE will be out of reach again for a lot of players but some will still be able to make it right?

    Ok we're going to lose DPS records, but is it worth all the rage over an arbitrary number?

    In the end, if this is temporary, then it'll be back to normal, except Cannons will be more competitive again.

    I honestly do not see anything wrong here.

    Personally, I think the latest string of game issues has everyone on edge, so this is like pouring more fuel to a smoldering fire. A part of me is just thinking we are overreacting on this matter.
  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    Short version: Because it can't work the other way. Not with the time our software engineers have to spend on rebuilding powers of this nature.

    Crits were disabled in order to bring parity, and there should definitely have been a patch note (I'm investigating why it may not have been included). If we had all the time in the world, we'd make it so these powers had the opportunity to land a Critical Hit regardless of your firing mode. But that is not the reality in which we live.

    There is a simple solution here, then. Remove crits, buff the damage to make up for it (since when the first version of explosions hit tribble, you talked specifically about crits making up for the lessened damage of these consoles). I get it if the software engineer's time is needed elsewhere, but I wouldn't think that merely changing the base damage value of this console would be nearly as time consuming.

    snipey47a wrote: »
    Our initial (and I admit limited testing) shows that overall attack effectiveness is reduced anywhere between 55% and 70% based on the current holodeck builds for that individual attack.

    This sounds very odd. My quick math the other day when this topic came up suggested that this would result in between a 10-20% chance. Have you tried removing all the possible variables (e.g. shooting at the gateway?)
    ​​
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

    Game's best wiki

    Build questions? Look here!
  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    Short version: Because it can't work the other way. Not with the time our software engineers have to spend on rebuilding powers of this nature.

    Crits were disabled in order to bring parity, and there should definitely have been a patch note (I'm investigating why it may not have been included). If we had all the time in the world, we'd make it so these powers had the opportunity to land a Critical Hit regardless of your firing mode. But that is not the reality in which we live.

    There is a simple solution here, then. Remove crits, buff the damage to make up for it (since when the first version of explosions hit tribble, you talked specifically about crits making up for the lessened damage of these consoles). I get it if the software engineer's time is needed elsewhere, but I wouldn't think that merely changing the base damage value of this console would be nearly as time consuming.
    ​​

    Alternative solution: Return it to the Burn.

    The (desired) damage is still there, and the issue of massive front-loaded Crit damage is lessened.
  • sf911sf911 Member Posts: 284 Arc User
    I can agree that the consoles are unbalanced BUT...

    But taking away such a major source of DPS (for many players) without providing a more balanced alternative is not a good move IMVHO.

    I'll be curious to know how many players will be able to complete queues like GGE or HSE now.

    Buffing the base dmg (or proc rate) of the consoles to compensate for the removal of the crits would have been a more equitable solution. Players heavily invested in the BFaW meta would not have to have to be nerfed to the ground, and non-bfaw users would be buffed significantly. This would be much more reasonable (IMVHO of course).
  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    praxi5 wrote: »
    Alternative solution: Return it to the Burn.

    The (desired) damage is still there, and the issue of massive front-loaded Crit damage is lessened.

    If they did that, they'd have to spend software engineering time to re-build the burn again; so that it doesn't have all the wonky interactions they didn't like it to. If they're going to do that, they might as well spend the time fixing the crits on the existing version.

    ​​
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

    Game's best wiki

    Build questions? Look here!
  • sf911sf911 Member Posts: 284 Arc User
    Short version: Because it can't work the other way. Not with the time our software engineers have to spend on rebuilding powers of this nature.

    Crits were disabled in order to bring parity, and there should definitely have been a patch note (I'm investigating why it may not have been included). If we had all the time in the world, we'd make it so these powers had the opportunity to land a Critical Hit regardless of your firing mode. But that is not the reality in which we live.

    There is a simple solution here, then. Remove crits, buff the damage to make up for it (since when the first version of explosions hit tribble, you talked specifically about crits making up for the lessened damage of these consoles). I get it if the software engineer's time is needed elsewhere, but I wouldn't think that merely changing the base damage value of this console would be nearly as time consuming.
    ​​

    Agreed 100%.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,891 Arc User
    All of these people complaining about lost damage and claims of losing 70% of their dps from it...no one takes the time to think maybe it's broken?

    Obviously it isn't functioning correctly if you lost 70% of your dps from it...either it's critting to much or it has a way to high crit damage modifier...or you're just blowing smoke out of your backside...
    Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
  • snipey47asnipey47a Member Posts: 485 Media Corps
    Short version: Because it can't work the other way. Not with the time our software engineers have to spend on rebuilding powers of this nature.

    Crits were disabled in order to bring parity, and there should definitely have been a patch note (I'm investigating why it may not have been included). If we had all the time in the world, we'd make it so these powers had the opportunity to land a Critical Hit regardless of your firing mode. But that is not the reality in which we live.

    There is a simple solution here, then. Remove crits, buff the damage to make up for it (since when the first version of explosions hit tribble, you talked specifically about crits making up for the lessened damage of these consoles). I get it if the software engineer's time is needed elsewhere, but I wouldn't think that merely changing the base damage value of this console would be nearly as time consuming.

    snipey47a wrote: »
    Our initial (and I admit limited testing) shows that overall attack effectiveness is reduced anywhere between 55% and 70% based on the current holodeck builds for that individual attack.

    This sounds very odd. My quick math the other day when this topic came up suggested that this would result in between a 10-20% chance. Have you tried removing all the possible variables (e.g. shooting at the gateway?)
    ​​

    Vel,

    Average Non-Crit damage is approximately the same. You lose all the crit damage. We also noted that our standing console damage was approximately 2k per console less than Holodeck with Anchored fully stacked.
  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    praxi5 wrote: »
    Alternative solution: Return it to the Burn.

    The (desired) damage is still there, and the issue of massive front-loaded Crit damage is lessened.

    If they did that, they'd have to spend software engineering time to re-build the burn again; so that it doesn't have all the wonky interactions they didn't like it to. If they're going to do that, they might as well spend the time fixing the crits on the existing version.

    ​​

    Yeah, there's definitely truth to that.
    snipey47a wrote: »
    Vel,

    Average Non-Crit damage is approximately the same. You lose all the crit damage. We also noted that our standing console damage was approximately 2k per console less than Holodeck with Anchored fully stacked.

    Am I understanding this correctly? The "base" damage, that someone using Cannons got, for example, is also reduced as well?
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    Short version: Because it can't work the other way. Not with the time our software engineers have to spend on rebuilding powers of this nature.

    Crits were disabled in order to bring parity, and there should definitely have been a patch note (I'm investigating why it may not have been included). If we had all the time in the world, we'd make it so these powers had the opportunity to land a Critical Hit regardless of your firing mode. But that is not the reality in which we live.

    There is a simple solution here, then. Remove crits, buff the damage to make up for it (since when the first version of explosions hit tribble, you talked specifically about crits making up for the lessened damage of these consoles). I get it if the software engineer's time is needed elsewhere, but I wouldn't think that merely changing the base damage value of this console would be nearly as time consuming.
    ​​

    This seems like the best interim solution. +1 to this.
  • snipey47asnipey47a Member Posts: 485 Media Corps
    lianthelia wrote: »
    All of these people complaining about lost damage and claims of losing 70% of their dps from it...no one takes the time to think maybe it's broken?

    Obviously it isn't functioning correctly if you lost 70% of your dps from it...either it's critting to much or it has a way to high crit damage modifier...or you're just blowing smoke out of your backside...

    Not 70% of overall DPS. Up to 70% from that attack type only. And according to Cryptic, these consoles with BFAW was WAI.
  • hipachilleshipachilles Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    eionp wrote: »
    Personally, I am happy anytime abused mechanics get balanced. Getting a crit on plasma damage doesn't seem to be the intended effect of those consoles.

    Guys read the thread. It was working as intended with faw. Not an abused mechanic.

    Thanks for checking, but I did read the thread. There is a difference between abused and bugged. I know it was working as intended. I also know that it was not intended to only work with BFAW. Read the rest of what I wrote.
    I agree that fixing the plasma crit chance for everything would have been preferred. Given that Bort has removed that as a viable option, I prefer this fix to the status quo.

    In my opinion, stacking those consoles with BFAW uptime, APA, and/or Tac Locator/Exploitor consoles is an abuse of the plasma explosion mechanic. I don't understand how a proc should have benefited from a critical hit in the first place. To me, a proc IS A CRITICAL IN AND OF ITSELF.

  • earwigvr6earwigvr6 Member Posts: 293 Arc User
    I am kind of on the fence with this one.

    On one hand I agree it's ridiculous to have the majority of DPS coming from stacking a single console. I would have much rather something like only being able to stack a single console be employed. In fact it would be great if this was deployed across the entire range of consoles.

    Would really give an immense boost to the types of builds that are on offer.

    Problem being that we have gone way past that point for that to be viable. One of the main reasons is the vast amount of resources poured into this and in many cases people REAL money !

    Luckily I only invested in 2 of these consoles to get me just shy of 80k dps but admittedly real money was involved in getting them to where I wanted. So in essence it's money seemingly wasted.

    At the very VERY least the consoles should be made account bound so that they can be transferred to another toon if need be which might reduce some of the tension players are feeling towards this game.

    The other thing I find concerning, and perhaps more so than anything else is that if you don't have the time to fix this problem properly and just take the simple and easy way out, then really what hope do we have in the fight against the lag ?

    It's becoming clearer and clearer that the business model is just to release as much stuff as possible to cash in. Be it ships or upgrade events or anything else along those lines. If all these things worked correctly this would not be an issue but all it does is add to the list of issues which gets longer and longer.

    In the end all it does is push players away and make them close their wallets.

    Not sounding to good for business right ?
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,891 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    snipey47a wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    All of these people complaining about lost damage and claims of losing 70% of their dps from it...no one takes the time to think maybe it's broken?

    Obviously it isn't functioning correctly if you lost 70% of your dps from it...either it's critting to much or it has a way to high crit damage modifier...or you're just blowing smoke out of your backside...

    Not 70% of overall DPS. Up to 70% from that attack type only. And according to Cryptic, these consoles with BFAW was WAI.

    Still 70% of the damage from that console was from crits? Either the thing crit to much or it had a over-inflated crit damage modifier...or it wasn't a 70% loss...
    Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
  • meurikmeurik Member Posts: 856 Arc User
    It's nice to see, the solution to "fixing" things is plain out disabling them. Don't bother changing mechanics, or code. Just outright disable it instead. Faster, simpler solution.​​
    HvGQ9pH.png
  • mindbleepmindbleep Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    isnt there a way to sue them?.. for indeed devalued my precious money,i spent over the time?.. if everyone would do this.. bring those guys to there knees.. but... i think its time to leave this game, no silly money grabbing development anymore, No more bad programmmers/development team to deal with..
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,891 Arc User
    mindbleep wrote: »
    isnt there a way to sue them?.. for indeed devalued my precious money,i spent over the time?.. if everyone would do this.. bring those guys to there knees.. but... i think its time to leave this game, no silly money grabbing development anymore, No more bad programmmers/development team to deal with..

    I guess you've never played a online game before? That little disclaimer that your online experience may change? Plus if you paid for dilithium well...that was your choice.

    Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
  • daniela1055daniela1055 Member Posts: 113 Arc User

    Well, if you have the money to donate to Cryptic to hire extra programmers, then by all means.

    Oh please stop this "Cryptic needs money" argumenting because this must be a joke given the fact that you talk about a company with a market cap. of over ONE BILLION US$. ​​
  • primar13primar13 Member Posts: 1,896 Bug Hunter

    Well, if you have the money to donate to Cryptic to hire extra programmers, then by all means.

    Oh please stop this "Cryptic needs money" argumenting because this must be a joke given the fact that you talk about a company with a market cap. of over ONE BILLION US$. ​​

    SOURCE! Since Cryptic tends to not release information regarding financials or Staffing.

  • coupaholiccoupaholic Member Posts: 2,188 Arc User
    I'd like to think this mess would be a valuable learning experience, especially on patch day when the masses learn of this little fix and the oceans of angry tears will be flooding in around their ankles.

    Maybe some intelligent fellow over at Cryptic HQ would click that perhaps further feeding the power creep with broken things they'll be forced to nerf into the ground (or in this case just turn off) might not be the best plan of action?

    Who wants to bet now the next toys to come along would be something even more ridiculous? Tell you what, cannons need some TLC so let's see some of them. Fleet issue jumbo cannons with 40% crit and 50% pen as standard, going up to roughly 1000% each after sinking everything you own into upgrading them - including your left arm and firstborn child.

    I dunno. Times like this I am very glad I don't bother buying this stuff, but as much as they seem to enjoy punishment I feel a touch of sympathy for those that do.​​
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    You know I've been using the romulan embassy consoles since they were released and I have to say I'm pretty disappointed by this...this is a really freaking lazy balance pass. It's too much work to fix these bugged consoles so we are just going to nerf them into the ground. Smh...
    Tza0PEl.png
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