: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
It has nothing to do with how many are left.
thanks gradii, was going to post that definition too. i'm really surprised there are some who don't understand the concept...
Actually , there is a difference between understanding a concept and applying it .
I didn't ask folks to give me the text book definition of genocide, I wanted to hear the arguments against it in context & application .
Or in other words I wanted to hear what you believed .
Now 'qziqza' gave his suppositions , and while I admire most of them (except the bending the knee) , I'll have to respectfully disagree .
Large scale military decisions are always made based on loose Intel and the knowledge that the outcome is not 100% assured .
Bending the knee is not for those who in their latest communique told us basically "you've come to our attention ... , do not come to our attention again !" , as those are not words from someone who's highly interested in opening an embassy on Earth .
Also, Humanity (in Trek lore) has outgrown the need for 'gods' .
See the TOS ep. "Who mourns for Adonais" for further details .
And lastly , like someone else has already pointed out, some folks seem to be missing the difference between genocide and war .
War is indeed where the other side is actively trying to kill you .
Now you can have the moral higher ground by going quietly to the slaughter ... , lamenting that if someone survived , they will remember you as a victim of genocide ... , but other than that ... , all is fair in love and war ... -- and that includes eradicating your enemy before it / they eradicate you .
lol, for starters i don't need a lesson on the ins and outs of military decisions, thanks for thought though
That's strange ... , considering that you seem to go out of your way to disconnect and then dismiss the Iconians actions .
So let's look at those actions again, shall we ?
* They plot to destroy Romulus . Why?
* They plot to provoke the Undine . Why?
* They plot to further destabilize the Alpha & Beta quadrants . Why?
* They assign the Vaduaar as a proxy agent to destabilize the Delta quadrant & eliminate unwanted races . Why?
You're welcome to give your military assessment on these actions .
I call it 'softening up targets before a massive invasion' .
You call it ... :
we are considering, is not an act of war, it isn't even a process or war. if we are not willing to consider any other form of action.. no attempts at peaceful resolution.. no mutual cessation of military action.. no request for their surrender.. or consideration for ours.. then i'm sorry, by any definition it is not war.
Ahh yes, you call it "not a war" .
And that is one of the reasons we disagree .
See, while at the end of the latest FE, the Klingon General tells us that now he's convinced that the Iconians are unbeatable via conventional warfare -- you're still at a point of denial that there actually is warfare ... , because you define warfare by the stringent "rules of war" that you kling to .
I'm guessing you're also awaiting for ISIS / Daesh to formally declare war or to slap you across the face with a glove .
]
as an aside.. what if they are totally in the right? what if what they are doing is for the better? what if they are correcting a travesty, or great wrong?
You know , I've met some villain lovers in my time who would bend over backwards to justify the thoughts and actions of the object of their affection ... -- but I have yet to see the same based on such flimsy writing of such cardboard cutout non-characters .
You really should watch / read better fiction and seek better villains to care for .
Trust me, they're out there .
It could be explained that those pods are either empty, or just have computer systems or power source for the technology at that location. Just because it looks like a pod that contained a preserver, doesn't guarantee that's what is inside it.
you can see the shadows of the preservers inside, same as the main archive.
Huh, didn't look like what I remembered, as my visual memory isn't great. I can't quite tell from those pictures so I'll have to take a closer look next time, might as well get the breen set sooner while at it.
One thing I've noticed (and that someone else mentioned further up the thread) is that everyone's assuming that we are going to use the timeship to annihilate the Iconians themselves. That isn't necessarily the case. Noye was talking about running simulations to choose a good incursion to perform. I don't think anyone thinks wiping out the Iconians is a good incursion; as many of the rest of you have said, too much of galactic history would depend on it. Any NPC objections to the weapon are regarding meddling with time, not genocide. That suggests to me that wiping out the Iconians isn't anyone's intention, otherwise someone probably would have mentioned it. IIRC, no one in-game has said anything about using the weapon to destroy the Iconians directly, that is only something we, the players, have inferred.
Just my 2 EC.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Alternate universes are a fact of life in the STO multiverse; just think of this Krenim device as a literal universal remote. Nobodies talking genocide; doing all the calculations is just searching the programming guide for a channel where "the Iconians" has been cancelled... Let's just cross our fingers and hope we don't end up on the CW....
I did more thiking about this and I think no one is adressing the issue of morality because we aren't going to use the weapon. We'll plan to fire it on the herald sphere or Iconia proper. At the last second Nog or Kagran is going to wimp out and refuse to fire it. The Krenim who have lost everything thanks to the Iconians are going to mutiny and go rogue with this god-gun ship. We destroy it near Iconia and the ensuing temporal explosion destroys the Iconian's brains which, as we know, aren't capable of dealing with time travel. War over. Season 11: Search for whatever the hell "The Other" is
Lets be honest, its written this way for one inescapable reason. All content in STO is written by computer programmers that clearly achieved no better then C grades in anything related to writing. We have all read better fan fiction. Cryptic is to cheap to hire actual writers. It's pointless to argue the finer points of anything they turn out, critiquing the episodes is as pointless as it would be to write a 5 page review of the worst Trek fan fiction ever written... 4 or 5 comical lines are about all the time its worth.
As our brilliant Ferasan officer pointed out, they are beings of energy, remove their power source and they become as helpless as new born puppies.
I know that some NPC made the claim in-game that the Iconians are "energy beings." I find the notion untenable. A sword, even The Sword of Kahless, cannot cut the "arm" off of a being of pure energy. It appears to me that the Iconians have physical bodies with a strong energy-based "essence" inside.
In the real world, the word "energy being" is pretty much meaningless. Stuff has energy. The stuff can be photons, anti-matter or a glass of marmelade. But it's never just energy.
So, whatever energy beings in Star Trek really means, if a Startrek author wants it to mean that you can hit them with a Bat'Leth, you can.
And certainly, if Iconians can touch and interact with their environment, then so can we interact with them.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
One thing that is being overlooked in the thought on this "weapons" use is the fact that it removes something from the time stream but does not have to be a whole species.
Honestly from playing through the story line thus far what I think they will end up doing is removing something that will retcon the destruction of the preserver bolt h hole world. Thus giving the alliance valuable knowledge of the enemy without major impact to the timeline.
A reason the Romulan Republic will resist using the Krenim weapon: No Hobus disaster, no weakening of Imperial power, no opportunity to break away, no freedom.
By allowing the use of the weapon the Romulan Republic would cease to exist.
The Krenim Time Weapon goes against everything the Federation stands for. There are better ways, and they don't seem to be looking for them.
If this is the direction you want to go with the plot, AT LEAST pin the responsibility for the decision on Section 31.
There are better ways.. such as? people forget we are talking about the iconians. They will never agree to a peace threaty or anything else. And after the last episode, i dont think you will convnce em to have a cup of tea with you. So, what other ways??? oh yeah, why killing em all is not the same thing as genocide? because you know, we had this very same reaction against the undine with the exception the Undine was an enemy we could defeat. And i think nobody will miss the Borg if we erase em from story and still the Borg are LIVING beings. Even if they are half-machines. So, what other ways? if you are facing a specie that will never ever surrender or agree to make peace?? how the hell you going to stop em if they are stronger than any civilization out there??
There are better ways.. such as? people forget we are talking about the iconians. They will never agree to a peace threaty or anything else. And after the last episode, i dont think you will convnce em to have a cup of tea with you. So, what other ways??? oh yeah, why killing em all is not the same thing as genocide? because you know, we had this very same reaction against the undine with the exception the Undine was an enemy we could defeat. And i think nobody will miss the Borg if we erase em from story and still the Borg are LIVING beings. Even if they are half-machines. So, what other ways? if you are facing a specie that will never ever surrender or agree to make peace?? how the hell you going to stop em if they are stronger than any civilization out there??
The Iconians are not gods.
And no matter how many times people point out alternatives you ignore it entirely. there's no point reasoning with you.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
That's strange ... , considering that you seem to go out of your way to disconnect and then dismiss the Iconians actions .
i'm not dismissing their actions, quite the opposite in fact. i am trying to rationalise each action and understand the why, rather than just the what.
you may be comfortable with making use of a machine to effectively commit genocide on the iconians and all the knock on effects that will incur. i need more than a powerpoint presentation of what has occurred.. i want to see questions being answered about why. and at least some genuine attempts at dialogue [no matter the format we have to adopt to do so] plenty of players out there banding around "the needs of the many..." well come on then, get out from behind the safety of sevens shielding and a temporal weapon, and attempt to talk to them..
i'm not religious, but would still show the proper deference to the new pope if i should meet him too. but then i guess the idea of showing deference and proper respect to these ancients just wouldn't sit well with everyone, personal pride and bitterness being what it is, who cares it might save everything. we know they are essentially an absolute monarchic society or a totalitarian monarchic society, if you prefer? that they consider themselves gods doesn't really change anything, if you cant see past that then make up your own word to replace it.
in their cultural system they have total power, in real life we have politicians, are they really any different? take away the titles and all the fawning (well most of it, there will always be those with a taste for shoe leather) so why is it so hard to consider attempting some form of dialogue? they are just a scaled up version of any hierarchical or tiered system, with some very cool abilities
So let's look at those actions again, shall we ?
* They plot to destroy Romulus . Why?
* They plot to provoke the Undine . Why?
* They plot to further destabilize the Alpha & Beta quadrants . Why?
* They assign the Vaduaar as a proxy agent to destabilize the Delta quadrant & eliminate unwanted races . Why?
was it not hakeev who sought out the iconians? great ambassador to his people wasn't he, power hungry, self absorbed, willing to do anything to his own people to get what he craved, if you met that man, and were to consider or attempt to understand his species based on him what opinions or conclusions would you come too?
You're welcome to give your military assessment on these actions .
I call it 'softening up targets before a massive invasion' .
You call it ...
i don't think they actually need to 'soften up targets' do they? interesting that every action you bullet point ends with a... why? has that not been my point this whole time? we don't know why, and if we don't know why, we don't know if there are alternative options that could end this war without further losses. so nobody can say it makes no sense to dig for answers, or look for other options, before unleashing that weapon? or are you with the shoot 1st and avoid having to ask questions crowd? as yet.. the iconians have had no interaction with us that wasn't in the form of a gun in the face.. if they are basing their opinion of us on the only interactions they have had with species in this galaxy, consider who they have dealt with, and the motivation of those people.
they choose to plot and manipulate, why bother? T'Ket wanted to Burn the entire galaxy and and bathe in our blood, so im sure they have the means to do so.. but she was told no. it seams there had been no original plan in place that involved our total destruction (excluding romulans and remans here.. blame hakeev for that), we had to kill M'Tara for that to change. So you are completely correct, the iconians have committed to doing war with us, we are clearly at war.. but maybe you should go back and read my post again, as i never said we weren't at war, just that the choice to use that weapon is not an act of war.
we are considering, is not an act of war, it isn't even a process or war. if we are not willing to consider any other form of action.. no attempts at peaceful resolution.. no mutual cessation of military action.. no request for their surrender.. or consideration for ours.. then i'm sorry, by any definition it is not war.
Ahh yes, you call it "not a war" .
And that is one of the reasons we disagree .
See, while at the end of the latest FE, the Klingon General tells us that now he's convinced that the Iconians are unbeatable via conventional warfare -- you're still at a point of denial that there actually is warfare ... , because you define warfare by the stringent "rules of war" that you kling to .
I'm guessing you're also awaiting for ISIS / Daesh to formally declare war or to slap you across the face with a glove .
again read that passage.. what we are considering is not an act of war, at no point do i say we are not at war, my issue is with what we are about to do, it is that which is not an act of war it is an act of desperation being undertaken, without considering, or attempting alternative options.
as an aside.. what if they are totally in the right? what if what they are doing is for the better? what if they are correcting a travesty, or great wrong?
You know , I've met some villain lovers in my time who would bend over backwards to justify the thoughts and actions of the object of their affection ... -- but I have yet to see the same based on such flimsy writing of such cardboard cutout non-characters .
its not villain love, its looking for more depth in the storyline, having an opinion, engaging a less narrow perspective, while considering motives, reasons and rational behind all of there actions. or do you believe everything has been happening on a simple whim? i always prefer a more dispassionate, dissective approach, to complex situations, over reactionary 'club.. face.. smash' approaches for those who still live in caves.
there may be glaring holes in the plot, and it may be that the iconians are the spawn of a million TRIBBLE and destroying them, and all they stand for, would save our galaxy and free their reign of terror and tyranny in the andromada galaxy as well.. but, we just don't have enough information on this situation or on them and their final objective. my issue is our arrogance in thinking that we know enough, and have the right to use this of weapon. and the stupidity or ignorance to not place any value or resources in alternative approaches.
how long has it taken to build that science station, how long till they finish the weapon, how much time have we wasted sat around while we could have also been considering these other options? time that could have been used to try something that didn't involve blowing TRIBBLE up. i will never be happy to use that weapon, and if the mission calls for it, i wont be completing particular story arc on simple principle.
You really should watch / read better fiction and seek better villains to care for .
Trust me, they're out there .
And no matter how many times people point out alternatives you ignore it entirely. there's no point reasoning with you.
What is it matter if the iconians are not gods?? dunno what you talking about.. i still didnt read any viable alternative to stop em. They are not gods, but as cryptic presented em, they are the worst enemy of the galaxy. And no peaceful alternatives will work. So, if you dont find a peaceful alternative, what then??
like draining the energy source?? do you realize that is like killing em? = genocide, right??.
So, you have maybe the worst enemy the entire galaxy had, that had proven time after time that they dont care not a bit about the other species (not like the undine, that was completely different), and you are trying to make peace with em.. i just dont see , sorry. I agree that we should find other ways to .. hmm.. too what.. to kill em? because thats the only thing we can do.
This is like, seeing that a rabid dog comes to you to rip apart your face, but yo do nothing because you are an animal defender and lover. lol. I mean, we need to be realistic sometimes, not just stupids..
Lets be honest, its written this way for one inescapable reason. All content in STO is written by computer programmers that clearly achieved no better then C grades in anything related to writing. We have all read better fan fiction. Cryptic is to cheap to hire actual writers. It's pointless to argue the finer points of anything they turn out, critiquing the episodes is as pointless as it would be to write a 5 page review of the worst Trek fan fiction ever written... 4 or 5 comical lines are about all the time its worth.
this would seem to be true which is very unfortunate as this community has some amazing pensmiths, who i think would jump at an opportunity to work with the team and bring some of their work to life in game, or even just help deepen story ideas and help avoid plot holes on in house story ideas.
Lets be honest, its written this way for one inescapable reason. All content in STO is written by computer programmers that clearly achieved no better then C grades in anything related to writing. We have all read better fan fiction. Cryptic is to cheap to hire actual writers. It's pointless to argue the finer points of anything they turn out, critiquing the episodes is as pointless as it would be to write a 5 page review of the worst Trek fan fiction ever written... 4 or 5 comical lines are about all the time its worth.
this would seem to be true which is very unfortunate as this community has some amazing pensmiths, who i think would jump at an opportunity to work with the team and bring some of their work to life in game, or even just help deepen story ideas and help avoid plot holes on in house story ideas.
Thats not the problem. The problem is, the guys who write the story ARE NOT people who like star trek or understand the star trek universe. Everybody can write reasonable and good stories. You just need to put effort on it. And as we all know, cryptic is not precisely "famous" in that aspect. The same way they will never hire more people to help with bugs or smooth things a bit and give a break to every worker, they will never invest in a better thinking when creating episodes. And of course they will never hire people to just write stories, no any videogame company does that.
So, they need to release it as fast as they can, so they cant waste time thinking on a proper writting. In other games, the quality control is something that is taken in consideration as an important thing, in star trek online this is not the case.
PD I didnt mean to quote only you (but the guy you quoted as well). But im too tired of these forums. The quote feature is a nightmare.
Lets be honest, its written this way for one inescapable reason. All content in STO is written by computer programmers that clearly achieved no better then C grades in anything related to writing. We have all read better fan fiction. Cryptic is to cheap to hire actual writers. It's pointless to argue the finer points of anything they turn out, critiquing the episodes is as pointless as it would be to write a 5 page review of the worst Trek fan fiction ever written... 4 or 5 comical lines are about all the time its worth.
this would seem to be true which is very unfortunate as this community has some amazing pensmiths, who i think would jump at an opportunity to work with the team and bring some of their work to life in game, or even just help deepen story ideas and help avoid plot holes on in house story ideas.
Thats not the problem. The problem is, the guys who write the story ARE NOT people who like star trek or understand the star trek universe. Everybody can write reasonable and good stories. You just need to put effort on it. And as we all know, cryptic is not precisely "famous" in that aspect. The same way they will never hire more people to help with bugs or smooth things a bit and give a break to every worker, they will never invest in a better thinking when creating episodes. And of course they will never hire people to just write stories, no any videogame company does that.
So, they need to release it as fast as they can, so they cant waste time thinking on a proper writting. In other games, the quality control is something that is taken in consideration as an important thing, in star trek online this is not the case.
PD I didnt mean to quote only you (but the guy you quoted as well). But im too tired of these forums. The quote feature is a nightmare.
yeah, no worries, i get where you are coming from. agreed, even with the great forum enhancement addon, there are still things about the forums that rub me the wrong way too.
i'm not dismissing their actions, quite the opposite in fact. i am trying to rationalise each action and understand the why, rather than just the what.
You weren't so keen on theorizing the "why's" of the Iconians aggressive actions in our Galaxy (prior to our knowledge of them) , so let's try something else -- the process of elimination .
While we're somewhat vauge on concepts such as "the Other" and "the Iconian grand plan" , we do know a few things :
* the Iconians want to return to our Galaxy .
* they are not interested in simply colonizing or terraforming a solar system , and peacefully co-exist as "one of the many" (aka like the rest of the galaxy's races) .
* they (via a servitor race) have been studying and "live" monitoring many of the Alpha & Beta quadrant "powers" , classifying them according to either military strength (as opponents) or as possible future servitor races .
* they have actively sought out servitor races (or individuals) .
* they believe themselves to be a superior life form (and posses an arsenal of deregatory cliches to verbalize said superiority) .
* they likely do not value all sentient life equally (big bump in the road if ever negotiating with the Federation) .
* they possess a galaxy spanning but7 hurt as far as the Milky Way is concerned .
* control freaks (up to and including control via parasites)
* unaware of many time travel options in the Milky Way
we know they are essentially an absolute monarchic society or a totalitarian monarchic society, if you prefer? that they consider themselves gods doesn't really change anything, if you cant see past that then make up your own word to replace it.
in their cultural system they have total power
Yup, all that as well .
i don't think they actually need to 'soften up targets' do they?
Considering that they had a focused interest in the local "super powers" and used both "live monitoring" (that we discovered with Worf ) and experiments conducted by Hakeev for them -- yeah, I definitely think that as part of any military doctrine , "softening us up" was definitely on the menu .
Or to put it in reverse, if they were as arrogant as some think they are, they'd not have done any monitoring or testing or anything else that resembles reconnaissance prior to their invasion .
interesting that every action you bullet point ends with a... why? has that not been my point this whole time? we don't know why, and if we don't know why, we don't know if there are alternative options that could end this war without further losses.
My previous bulletpoints ended with a 'why' because I was wondering why you thought that those events happened .
I already pointed out my supposition -- to weaken all the 'superpowers' , from the Klingons to the Borg .
They why still awaits your answer , should you feel like it .
so nobody can say it makes no sense to dig for answers, or look for other options, before unleashing that weapon? or are you with the shoot 1st and avoid having to ask questions crowd?
In a way , yes I am ... , in the sense that prior to the whole 'time weapon' thing, I lamented that just like the Kobayashi Maru tests captains on the loss of their crew, this situation may be a test in regards to how we as captains cope with the loss of our entire civilization ... , as the Federation (and other powers) are finite entities as well -- just like Picard asked in Best of Both Worlds : "is this the end of our civilization ? Turn the page ... ."
as yet.. the iconians have had no interaction with us that wasn't in the form of a gun in the face.. if they are basing their opinion of us on the only interactions they have had with species in this galaxy, consider who they have dealt with, and the motivation of those people.
Sorry, but that's not exactly true .
One of the Iconians made a grand appearance in the Klingon Great Hall with many Klingon, Federation and Romulan dignitaries present .
If anything , that was a golden opportunity to make First Contact .
Remember how that turned out ?
I seem to recall a few roasted Klingon senators .
they choose to plot and manipulate, why bother?
If I had to guess ... , I'd go with "since they can't time travel , they're going to do their best to restore the conditions that existed in the Milky Way 200.000 years ago ".
But that's just a guess .
what we are considering is not an act of war,
How is it different than the steps taken during the " temporal cold war" shown on Enterprise ?
How is it different then Janeway pulling the time travel in Voyager's finale? How is it different then the Prophets intervention and diversion of the Dominion fleet ?
The only thing that is actually different is the scale .
its not villain love, its looking for more depth in the storyline, having an opinion, engaging a less narrow perspective, while considering motives, reasons and rational behind all of there actions. or do you believe everything has been happening on a simple whim?
If you consider a combo ripoff of the B5 & Stargate villains as a simple whim, then yes ?
An interesting discussion, I'm glad I found it. I do have some spoilers though taken from the Wise Sages that could shed a little light on the situation.
Its unfortunate they took these spoilers down but I have a decent memory so here goes...
Indeed something does seem to go wrong in an episode called "Butterfly Effect." There is little about is apparent except that it looks like Romulus was restored but it had been assimilated by the Borg. This can't be good for the Federation or the Klingon Empire. The player and Nog has to somehow fix this mistake.
The episode after that seems to have us travel back in time to the Iconia of 200k years ago where we get to 'expore Iconian and Herald civilisation." The single screenshot provided shows pictures of "humanoid" Iconians rather than the glowy ones we see today. Suggests that at one time they were much like us.
I wish I had more than what I remember from before the information was removed.
as yet.. the iconians have had no interaction with us that wasn't in the form of a gun in the face.. if they are basing their opinion of us on the only interactions they have had with species in this galaxy, consider who they have dealt with, and the motivation of those people.
Sorry, but that's not exactly true .
One of the Iconians made a grand appearance in the Klingon Great Hall with many Klingon, Federation and Romulan dignitaries present .
If anything , that was a golden opportunity to make First Contact .
Remember how that turned out ?
I seem to recall a few roasted Klingon senators.
When M'Tara showed up in the Great Hall, that was an ultimatum. The Klingon Council didn't attempt to harm her; they merely dissented, and for that, she killed them. That suggests diplomacy was never an option. Remember, the Iconians think they are gods. Gods do not negotiate, they make demands and they expect to be obeyed.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Let me answer this topics question in a very unemotional way: Because almost noone cares for STOs boring leveling content and it's stories. Its not endgame content, it really doesn't takes more than 0.001% of total playtime on each character...so why bother.
People prefer discussing endgame concerns like: DOFFing, PvP, some PvE-Queues, some resource and xp grinds, and... well actually that are pretty much all relevant things in STO.
diplomacy should always be our 1st option, and it must remain an option till the bitter end. have we even tried talking to them yet? apart from some dude in a pair his oggs, with worg grease down his front and a blade in his hand.
Diplomacy isn't an option, you can't talk terms to a species who believes you are not worth talking too, hell, until recently they didn't even consider us worth the time to actively hunt and kill us all.
really, and has anyone tried? how about approaching them on their terms, showing some deference and respect, regardless of what is going on, they are an ancient species, there biggest beef with us seems to be a lack of respect. but no.. rather than tipping the hat, taking a knee and showing respect, that would maybe at least open up a dialogue, our answer is.. death kill maime destroy them.
"the needs of the many out way the needs of the few, or the one.."
well, i think risking personal instant obliteration, by taking a knee and showing proper deference, and trying to open up a dialogue to save everything, is worth the chance.. would that not be a proper use of that philosophy?
Because you totally negotiate with the ants in your back yard before you break out the ant spray or call an exterminator, sure you may put up with them for a while, kill a few when they were in your way, let your kids stamp on them for fun, but now the ants are in the kitchen stealing food and it's time to get rid of them.
I will agree with the majority this once where the whole concept in this game much less in any context was not well thought out. Based on the information about this universe you would have astronomical variables to take in effect just to give an explanation or example the said 200,000 years ago and how long they ruled before that and each individuals actions that led up to their first enslavement to their last. Then think of all the variables especially those key to the federation since then. You most likely would be shielded but see an earth assimilated, the entire federation being ruled by tholians, breen, dominion, or some other unknown faction. Annorax he was just trying to deal with their empire alone think about how much the alliance is trying to change which is most likely so much bigger than their little puny empire.
Then on top of that to stop the iconians from ever existing you have to stop the preservers from existing and then thus when you succeed you wipe out the race that made you
One thing I've noticed (and that someone else mentioned further up the thread) is that everyone's assuming that we are going to use the timeship to annihilate the Iconians themselves. That isn't necessarily the case. Noye was talking about running simulations to choose a good incursion to perform. I don't think anyone thinks wiping out the Iconians is a good incursion; as many of the rest of you have said, too much of galactic history would depend on it. Any NPC objections to the weapon are regarding meddling with time, not genocide. That suggests to me that wiping out the Iconians isn't anyone's intention, otherwise someone probably would have mentioned it. IIRC, no one in-game has said anything about using the weapon to destroy the Iconians directly, that is only something we, the players, have inferred.
Just my 2 EC.
Then maybe they should explain that.
We, the viewers of the show, saw it primarily used for one purpose - wiping out species. At least that left the biggest impression with us. It has that capability. So if they don't plan to use it like that, and hence, there is no moral issue here, then maybe they should tell us that instead of letting us assume their plan to defeat the Iconians once and for all with a weapon capable of destroying a species once and for all doesn't involve doing so?
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
One thing I've noticed (and that someone else mentioned further up the thread) is that everyone's assuming that we are going to use the timeship to annihilate the Iconians themselves. That isn't necessarily the case. Noye was talking about running simulations to choose a good incursion to perform. I don't think anyone thinks wiping out the Iconians is a good incursion; as many of the rest of you have said, too much of galactic history would depend on it. Any NPC objections to the weapon are regarding meddling with time, not genocide. That suggests to me that wiping out the Iconians isn't anyone's intention, otherwise someone probably would have mentioned it. IIRC, no one in-game has said anything about using the weapon to destroy the Iconians directly, that is only something we, the players, have inferred.
Just my 2 EC.
Then maybe they should explain that.
We, the viewers of the show, saw it primarily used for one purpose - wiping out species. At least that left the biggest impression with us. It has that capability. So if they don't plan to use it like that, and hence, there is no moral issue here, then maybe they should tell us that instead of letting us assume their plan to defeat the Iconians once and for all with a weapon capable of destroying a species once and for all doesn't involve doing so?
Nah, it's selective recall. While there were 6 races that Annorax wiped out with the weapon ship, he apparently preferred to erase smaller targets, such as comets...
It's good to remember that Annorax had been flying around in that thing for CENTURIES....
One thing I've noticed (and that someone else mentioned further up the thread) is that everyone's assuming that we are going to use the timeship to annihilate the Iconians themselves. That isn't necessarily the case. Noye was talking about running simulations to choose a good incursion to perform. I don't think anyone thinks wiping out the Iconians is a good incursion; as many of the rest of you have said, too much of galactic history would depend on it. Any NPC objections to the weapon are regarding meddling with time, not genocide. That suggests to me that wiping out the Iconians isn't anyone's intention, otherwise someone probably would have mentioned it. IIRC, no one in-game has said anything about using the weapon to destroy the Iconians directly, that is only something we, the players, have inferred.
Just my 2 EC.
Then maybe they should explain that.
We, the viewers of the show, saw it primarily used for one purpose - wiping out species. At least that left the biggest impression with us. It has that capability. So if they don't plan to use it like that, and hence, there is no moral issue here, then maybe they should tell us that instead of letting us assume their plan to defeat the Iconians once and for all with a weapon capable of destroying a species once and for all doesn't involve doing so?
Nah, it's selective recall. While there were 6 races that Annorax wiped out with the weapon ship, he apparently preferred to erase smaller targets, such as comets...
It's good to remember that Annorax had been flying around in that thing for CENTURIES....
Yes, I remember, if you pay any attention to the way I worded it. Which clearly you did not. My point is that the wiping out of species left the biggest impression. It showed what a terrible weapon this thing can really be. And even then, they showed that wiping out the wrong comet could have serious consequences.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
diplomacy should always be our 1st option, and it must remain an option till the bitter end. have we even tried talking to them yet? apart from some dude in a pair his oggs, with worg grease down his front and a blade in his hand.
Diplomacy isn't an option, you can't talk terms to a species who believes you are not worth talking too, hell, until recently they didn't even consider us worth the time to actively hunt and kill us all.
really, and has anyone tried? how about approaching them on their terms, showing some deference and respect, regardless of what is going on, they are an ancient species, there biggest beef with us seems to be a lack of respect. but no.. rather than tipping the hat, taking a knee and showing respect, that would maybe at least open up a dialogue, our answer is.. death kill maime destroy them.
"the needs of the many out way the needs of the few, or the one.."
well, i think risking personal instant obliteration, by taking a knee and showing proper deference, and trying to open up a dialogue to save everything, is worth the chance.. would that not be a proper use of that philosophy?
Because you totally negotiate with the ants in your back yard before you break out the ant spray or call an exterminator, sure you may put up with them for a while, kill a few when they were in your way, let your kids stamp on them for fun, but now the ants are in the kitchen stealing food and it's time to get rid of them.
Significant Difference:
No ant has ever talked to me. And I've never been able to say something to an ant that implied she could make out my words.
Even Q recognized that we we were somewhat intelligent, and he communicated with us. And he's omnipotent. He really could crush us, and we'd have no chance to fight back.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think this is how my "final" solution to the story would be:
Step 1) Travel back in time to the Solanae Dyson Sphere and sabotage it, so it gets abandonded by the Solanae and whoever else was there.
Step 2) Travel back in time to the destruction of Romulus, and use the Iconian Gateway tech to evacuate the Romulan population aboard the Solanae Sphere.
Step 3) Travel back in time to Iconia at the time of the bombing, and evacuate the Iconians to the Solanae Sphere. Since the Iconians don't take too well to time travel, park the sphere in a safe spot.
Step 4) 200,000 years later, discover the time-shifted copy of the Solanae sphere.
Step 5) Contact the Romulan/Iconian descendents and find out the only one left is "The One", the rest long advanced to a higher lifeform, and unite him with the (broken) circle of Iconians what wage war on us.
Step 6) Peace, Rainbows and Unicorns, Klingons and Romulans living together in harmony, Q organizing the party of the millenium.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If 4 fails go back to 1 and get the Prophets to magic the Iconians away.
If 5 fails try Trelane, or the Nacene, or Gorgan, or God, or the Pah-wraiths, etc.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
as yet.. the iconians have had no interaction with us that wasn't in the form of a gun in the face.. if they are basing their opinion of us on the only interactions they have had with species in this galaxy, consider who they have dealt with, and the motivation of those people.
Sorry, but that's not exactly true .
One of the Iconians made a grand appearance in the Klingon Great Hall with many Klingon, Federation and Romulan dignitaries present .
If anything , that was a golden opportunity to make First Contact .
Remember how that turned out ?
I seem to recall a few roasted Klingon senators.
When M'Tara showed up in the Great Hall, that was an ultimatum. The Klingon Council didn't attempt to harm her; they merely dissented, and for that, she killed them. That suggests diplomacy was never an option. Remember, the Iconians think they are gods. Gods do not negotiate, they make demands and they expect to be obeyed.
Errr, I haz starship .
Would arrogant glowy would-be-gods like a starship ?
No, noooo ... , I iz not stealing proverbial starship joke from Shatnertrek ... , I iz ... just pointing out that the last Iconian we killed literraly died because she didn't want to let go of her ride ... , err ... starship .
Comments
That's strange ... , considering that you seem to go out of your way to disconnect and then dismiss the Iconians actions .
So let's look at those actions again, shall we ?
* They plot to destroy Romulus . Why?
* They plot to provoke the Undine . Why?
* They plot to further destabilize the Alpha & Beta quadrants . Why?
* They assign the Vaduaar as a proxy agent to destabilize the Delta quadrant & eliminate unwanted races . Why?
You're welcome to give your military assessment on these actions .
I call it 'softening up targets before a massive invasion' .
You call it ... :
Ahh yes, you call it "not a war" .
And that is one of the reasons we disagree .
See, while at the end of the latest FE, the Klingon General tells us that now he's convinced that the Iconians are unbeatable via conventional warfare -- you're still at a point of denial that there actually is warfare ... , because you define warfare by the stringent "rules of war" that you kling to .
I'm guessing you're also awaiting for ISIS / Daesh to formally declare war or to slap you across the face with a glove .
]
You know , I've met some villain lovers in my time who would bend over backwards to justify the thoughts and actions of the object of their affection ... -- but I have yet to see the same based on such flimsy writing of such cardboard cutout non-characters .
You really should watch / read better fiction and seek better villains to care for .
Trust me, they're out there .
Huh, didn't look like what I remembered, as my visual memory isn't great. I can't quite tell from those pictures so I'll have to take a closer look next time, might as well get the breen set sooner while at it.
Just my 2 EC.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
I know that some NPC made the claim in-game that the Iconians are "energy beings." I find the notion untenable. A sword, even The Sword of Kahless, cannot cut the "arm" off of a being of pure energy. It appears to me that the Iconians have physical bodies with a strong energy-based "essence" inside.
In the real world, the word "energy being" is pretty much meaningless. Stuff has energy. The stuff can be photons, anti-matter or a glass of marmelade. But it's never just energy.
So, whatever energy beings in Star Trek really means, if a Startrek author wants it to mean that you can hit them with a Bat'Leth, you can.
And certainly, if Iconians can touch and interact with their environment, then so can we interact with them.
Honestly from playing through the story line thus far what I think they will end up doing is removing something that will retcon the destruction of the preserver bolt h hole world. Thus giving the alliance valuable knowledge of the enemy without major impact to the timeline.
By allowing the use of the weapon the Romulan Republic would cease to exist.
There are better ways.. such as? people forget we are talking about the iconians. They will never agree to a peace threaty or anything else. And after the last episode, i dont think you will convnce em to have a cup of tea with you. So, what other ways??? oh yeah, why killing em all is not the same thing as genocide? because you know, we had this very same reaction against the undine with the exception the Undine was an enemy we could defeat. And i think nobody will miss the Borg if we erase em from story and still the Borg are LIVING beings. Even if they are half-machines. So, what other ways? if you are facing a specie that will never ever surrender or agree to make peace?? how the hell you going to stop em if they are stronger than any civilization out there??
The Iconians are not gods.
And no matter how many times people point out alternatives you ignore it entirely. there's no point reasoning with you.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
What is it matter if the iconians are not gods?? dunno what you talking about.. i still didnt read any viable alternative to stop em. They are not gods, but as cryptic presented em, they are the worst enemy of the galaxy. And no peaceful alternatives will work. So, if you dont find a peaceful alternative, what then??
like draining the energy source?? do you realize that is like killing em? = genocide, right??.
So, you have maybe the worst enemy the entire galaxy had, that had proven time after time that they dont care not a bit about the other species (not like the undine, that was completely different), and you are trying to make peace with em.. i just dont see , sorry. I agree that we should find other ways to .. hmm.. too what.. to kill em? because thats the only thing we can do.
This is like, seeing that a rabid dog comes to you to rip apart your face, but yo do nothing because you are an animal defender and lover. lol. I mean, we need to be realistic sometimes, not just stupids..
Thats not the problem. The problem is, the guys who write the story ARE NOT people who like star trek or understand the star trek universe. Everybody can write reasonable and good stories. You just need to put effort on it. And as we all know, cryptic is not precisely "famous" in that aspect. The same way they will never hire more people to help with bugs or smooth things a bit and give a break to every worker, they will never invest in a better thinking when creating episodes. And of course they will never hire people to just write stories, no any videogame company does that.
So, they need to release it as fast as they can, so they cant waste time thinking on a proper writting. In other games, the quality control is something that is taken in consideration as an important thing, in star trek online this is not the case.
PD I didnt mean to quote only you (but the guy you quoted as well). But im too tired of these forums. The quote feature is a nightmare.
You weren't so keen on theorizing the "why's" of the Iconians aggressive actions in our Galaxy (prior to our knowledge of them) , so let's try something else -- the process of elimination .
While we're somewhat vauge on concepts such as "the Other" and "the Iconian grand plan" , we do know a few things :
* the Iconians want to return to our Galaxy .
* they are not interested in simply colonizing or terraforming a solar system , and peacefully co-exist as "one of the many" (aka like the rest of the galaxy's races) .
* they (via a servitor race) have been studying and "live" monitoring many of the Alpha & Beta quadrant "powers" , classifying them according to either military strength (as opponents) or as possible future servitor races .
* they have actively sought out servitor races (or individuals) .
* they believe themselves to be a superior life form (and posses an arsenal of deregatory cliches to verbalize said superiority) .
* they likely do not value all sentient life equally (big bump in the road if ever negotiating with the Federation) .
* they possess a galaxy spanning but7 hurt as far as the Milky Way is concerned .
* control freaks (up to and including control via parasites)
* unaware of many time travel options in the Milky Way
Yup, all that as well .
Considering that they had a focused interest in the local "super powers" and used both "live monitoring" (that we discovered with Worf ) and experiments conducted by Hakeev for them -- yeah, I definitely think that as part of any military doctrine , "softening us up" was definitely on the menu .
Or to put it in reverse, if they were as arrogant as some think they are, they'd not have done any monitoring or testing or anything else that resembles reconnaissance prior to their invasion .
My previous bulletpoints ended with a 'why' because I was wondering why you thought that those events happened .
I already pointed out my supposition -- to weaken all the 'superpowers' , from the Klingons to the Borg .
They why still awaits your answer , should you feel like it .
In a way , yes I am ... , in the sense that prior to the whole 'time weapon' thing, I lamented that just like the Kobayashi Maru tests captains on the loss of their crew, this situation may be a test in regards to how we as captains cope with the loss of our entire civilization ... , as the Federation (and other powers) are finite entities as well -- just like Picard asked in Best of Both Worlds : "is this the end of our civilization ? Turn the page ... ."
Sorry, but that's not exactly true .
One of the Iconians made a grand appearance in the Klingon Great Hall with many Klingon, Federation and Romulan dignitaries present .
If anything , that was a golden opportunity to make First Contact .
Remember how that turned out ?
I seem to recall a few roasted Klingon senators .
If I had to guess ... , I'd go with "since they can't time travel , they're going to do their best to restore the conditions that existed in the Milky Way 200.000 years ago ".
But that's just a guess .
How is it different than the steps taken during the " temporal cold war" shown on Enterprise ?
How is it different then Janeway pulling the time travel in Voyager's finale? How is it different then the Prophets intervention and diversion of the Dominion fleet ?
The only thing that is actually different is the scale .
If you consider a combo ripoff of the B5 & Stargate villains as a simple whim, then yes ?
Its unfortunate they took these spoilers down but I have a decent memory so here goes...
The episode after that seems to have us travel back in time to the Iconia of 200k years ago where we get to 'expore Iconian and Herald civilisation." The single screenshot provided shows pictures of "humanoid" Iconians rather than the glowy ones we see today. Suggests that at one time they were much like us.
I wish I had more than what I remember from before the information was removed.
When M'Tara showed up in the Great Hall, that was an ultimatum. The Klingon Council didn't attempt to harm her; they merely dissented, and for that, she killed them. That suggests diplomacy was never an option. Remember, the Iconians think they are gods. Gods do not negotiate, they make demands and they expect to be obeyed.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Let me answer this topics question in a very unemotional way: Because almost noone cares for STOs boring leveling content and it's stories. Its not endgame content, it really doesn't takes more than 0.001% of total playtime on each character...so why bother.
People prefer discussing endgame concerns like: DOFFing, PvP, some PvE-Queues, some resource and xp grinds, and... well actually that are pretty much all relevant things in STO.
Because you totally negotiate with the ants in your back yard before you break out the ant spray or call an exterminator, sure you may put up with them for a while, kill a few when they were in your way, let your kids stamp on them for fun, but now the ants are in the kitchen stealing food and it's time to get rid of them.
Then on top of that to stop the iconians from ever existing you have to stop the preservers from existing and then thus when you succeed you wipe out the race that made you
Then maybe they should explain that.
We, the viewers of the show, saw it primarily used for one purpose - wiping out species. At least that left the biggest impression with us. It has that capability. So if they don't plan to use it like that, and hence, there is no moral issue here, then maybe they should tell us that instead of letting us assume their plan to defeat the Iconians once and for all with a weapon capable of destroying a species once and for all doesn't involve doing so?
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
It's good to remember that Annorax had been flying around in that thing for CENTURIES....
My character Tsin'xing
Yes, I remember, if you pay any attention to the way I worded it. Which clearly you did not. My point is that the wiping out of species left the biggest impression. It showed what a terrible weapon this thing can really be. And even then, they showed that wiping out the wrong comet could have serious consequences.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
No ant has ever talked to me. And I've never been able to say something to an ant that implied she could make out my words.
Even Q recognized that we we were somewhat intelligent, and he communicated with us. And he's omnipotent. He really could crush us, and we'd have no chance to fight back.
Step 1) Travel back in time to the Solanae Dyson Sphere and sabotage it, so it gets abandonded by the Solanae and whoever else was there.
Step 2) Travel back in time to the destruction of Romulus, and use the Iconian Gateway tech to evacuate the Romulan population aboard the Solanae Sphere.
Step 3) Travel back in time to Iconia at the time of the bombing, and evacuate the Iconians to the Solanae Sphere. Since the Iconians don't take too well to time travel, park the sphere in a safe spot.
Step 4) 200,000 years later, discover the time-shifted copy of the Solanae sphere.
Step 5) Contact the Romulan/Iconian descendents and find out the only one left is "The One", the rest long advanced to a higher lifeform, and unite him with the (broken) circle of Iconians what wage war on us.
Step 6) Peace, Rainbows and Unicorns, Klingons and Romulans living together in harmony, Q organizing the party of the millenium.
- Go into the Wormhole.
- Get The Sisko back.
- Get the Sisko to punch Q until he does as we ask.
- Get the now broken Q to magic the Iconians away.
- If 4 fails go back to 1 and get the Prophets to magic the Iconians away.
- If 5 fails try Trelane, or the Nacene, or Gorgan, or God, or the Pah-wraiths, etc.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Errr, I haz starship .
Would arrogant glowy would-be-gods like a starship ?
No, noooo ... , I iz not stealing proverbial starship joke from Shatnertrek ... , I iz ... just pointing out that the last Iconian we killed literraly died because she didn't want to let go of her ride ... , err ... starship .