On the other hand 24th century trek ships seemed more fragile then 23rd century ships as the 23rd century ones could take an utter pounding and still be somewhat flyable and 24th century ships cough galaxy cough took concerdably less damage and then exploded. Also Voyager seemed to have trouble taking on a D7 while a TOS Connie could one shot them. So there seemed to be some slacking in the starship design department in the century between.
Besides the Vengeance also has the advantage of long rang stealth torpedoes.
Haha I was just watching those sequences on youtube.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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The Defiant has a cloak as well as more advanced weapons and defences. That will allow it to dictate the terms any battle would be waged under. That's a fancy way of saying it gets to shoot first AND last.
The Defiant has a cloak as well as more advanced weapons and defences. That will allow it to dictate the terms any battle would be waged under. That's a fancy way of saying it gets to shoot first AND last.
Only the originalDefiant had a cloak, and cloaks can be beaten. This is a Starfleet that is engaged in a cold war with the Klingons that they expect to go hot, soon. Do you really think they're just going to cross their fingers when it comes to Klingon cloaking devices? And they still share a border with the Romulans, too.
Well yeah, and the OP said Defiant vs Vengeance, not Defiant-class USS Whatever. And the cloak is also just as advanced as the weapons. The Feds had a hard time countering the cloaks in all the eras they appeared in, other than General Chang's enhanced one. There's no evidence that the Vengeance would be able to penetrate the cloak to give it early warning against an impending attack.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,660Community Moderator
If the AR follows the same general technological development line as the Prime Universe... the Klingons won't get Cloak tech until the 2270s or so. Although with the data they gathered from studying the Narada herself... who knows...
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
If the AR follows the same general technological development line as the Prime Universe... the Klingons won't get Cloak tech until the 2270s or so. Although with the data they gathered from studying the Narada herself... who knows...
Unless the Klingons are brain-dead they only didn't have cloaks until they encountered the Xyrillians or the Suliban, so at least 2161.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
From what i've seen of JJTrek and Starship shields or LACK OF from the 2 movies, the Defiant would murder the Vengeance when compared to how shields have been portrayed during TNG-VOY (DS9 Fleet battles not withstanding due to CGI limitations on rendering shield FX for hundreds of ships). The Defiant is both Offensively and Defensively to much for Vengeance to handle.
From what i've seen of JJTrek and Starship shields or LACK OF from the 2 movies, the Defiant would murder the Vengeance when compared to how shields have been portrayed during TNG-VOY (DS9 Fleet battles not withstanding due to CGI limitations on rendering shield FX for hundreds of ships). The Defiant is both Offensively and Defensively to much for Vengeance to handle.
And that's if the Defiant doesn't cheese it out by coming out of cloaks with a single salvo of Quantum Torps on bare hull
Size matters? Not Always. The warp core doesnt have a larger output just because it is larger. The reactions effciency, how much energy that is being used and how much is waste, warp core and auxillary systems (such as coling, mag-field generator etc) materials thickness and size also play a role. Plus how much energy can the phaser banks and shield generators handle without burning itself out. a ships built with some 24th Century tech by 23th Century knowledge isnt really going to be as advanced as a ship built by PURE 24th Century tech and knowledge.
For a real world example, given by many above. Compare today's sport car Engine with engines of sport cars than 50 years ago. Modern cars can have the same power with a small Engine.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Plus it depends on what changed technologically over the years.
I remember in another discussion about the Vengeance someone pointed out that modern naval warships don't really have the firepower to deal with the armored hulls of older warships since they aren't expected to deal with that sort of thing anymore.
And you think that current development would be the same in Star Trek?
Size doesn't matter much when you have better armor, better shields and better weapons.
On the other hand 24th century trek ships seemed more fragile then 23rd century ships as the 23rd century ones could take an utter pounding and still be somewhat flyable and 24th century ships cough galaxy cough took concerdably less damage and then exploded. Also Voyager seemed to have trouble taking on a D7 while a TOS Connie could one shot them. So there seemed to be some slacking in the starship design department in the century between.
Besides the Vengeance also has the advantage of long rang stealth torpedoes.
Wait what? Constitution one-shot D7? If that was the case fed would have won the Cold war long ago....
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Damn tough PT-boat perhaps, Defiant class had some good shields and special armor too.
Dont forget the quads are very powerful.
Problem with shields though is that they are pretty much always the first system to go down in a firefight. In all-out war, it seems like the primary defensive tactic is evasion, because if you use all your power trying to keep the shields up, especially for a smaller ship like the Defiant, then your offensive capabilities suffer. So you let your armor take the hits that you don't evade, and leave your power to weapons and engines. Same tactic I use in-game, because if my shields go down (and they will), shield power won't help me evade hits.
Problems is that Vengeance weapons doesnt necessary have the punsch to break the Defiants shield. The tech leap in all it glory, the Defiant was a small ship, but extremly powerful and resilient small ship. Not your granddaddys Mirandas...
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
If the AR follows the same general technological development line as the Prime Universe... the Klingons won't get Cloak tech until the 2270s or so. Although with the data they gathered from studying the Narada herself... who knows...
Unless the Klingons are brain-dead they only didn't have cloaks until they encountered the Xyrillians or the Suliban, so at least 2161.
Same thing can be said about Feds they seem all brain dead becasue they didnt have uber planet-destroying beams after they encountered that Doomsday device. Hey, ever considered that the Klinks simply coulnt replicate and mass-produce a useful cloak?
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Why do people assume that Federation ships can't fight? or are some how inferior in that regard? In the show's, movies lore the Federation ships go toe to toe with anything else in the Alpha and Beta quadrant's primary powers. They had gone to war with both Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire, Cardasian Empire and many more and never were beaten. in fact it forced those more aggressive Empires.. and in regards to Klingons and Cardasian militaristic empires to sue for peace after suffering loss's by the Federation.
If Federation ships are inferior combat ships.. then what does that make the other factions ships with "dedicated" warships?
I mean if these so called Federation inferior combat ships and able to beat all these militaristic Empires with there "dedicated" combat ships... they should be darn worried if the Federation really wanted to fight >.>
The Defiant has a cloak as well as more advanced weapons and defences. That will allow it to dictate the terms any battle would be waged under. That's a fancy way of saying it gets to shoot first AND last.
Only the originalDefiant had a cloak, and cloaks can be beaten. This is a Starfleet that is engaged in a cold war with the Klingons that they expect to go hot, soon. Do you really think they're just going to cross their fingers when it comes to Klingon cloaking devices? And they still share a border with the Romulans, too.
Well, technically, at this point in time, the Klingons didn't use to have cloaking technology yet. They got that during TOS from the Romulans. And I believe Romulan cloaking capabilities were unknown until the events of Balance of Terror.
Of course, the timeline being screwed around with as much as it was, all bets are off, I suppose. Maybe the Klingon-Romulan technology exchange happened earlier, or in a different manner. It didn't seem that the Narada had cloaking technology, though, so it does not seem it could come from there.
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Don't forget how seriously the Defiant from the mirrorverse punked the Ginormous Mirror Klingon battleship. As Riker said in First Contact: "Tough little ship".
If the AR follows the same general technological development line as the Prime Universe... the Klingons won't get Cloak tech until the 2270s or so. Although with the data they gathered from studying the Narada herself... who knows...
Unless the Klingons are brain-dead they only didn't have cloaks until they encountered the Xyrillians or the Suliban, so at least 2161.
Same thing can be said about Feds they seem all brain dead becasue they didnt have uber planet-destroying beams after they encountered that Doomsday device. Hey, ever considered that the Klinks simply coulnt replicate and mass-produce a useful cloak?
Oh, of course, a extragalactic weapon of a power not seen even in the VOY era is something Starfleet should be strapping onto all their ships any day now.
The mirror Terrans had Suliban cloaks therefore the more advanced Klingons should have been able to. Both the Suliban and Xyrillians could be forced into retrofiting the cloaks for the Klingons if their own scientists weren't up to the job.
Well, technically, at this point in time, the Klingons didn't use to have cloaking technology yet. They got that during TOS from the Romulans. And I believe Romulan cloaking capabilities were unknown until the events of Balance of Terror.
The Romulans had cloaks in ENT so the Federation must have known about them. The Klingons may not have cloaked on-screen until the TOS films, but there's nothing in canon to suggest the Romulans were stupid enough to give it to them.
Edit: The Klingon Warbirds (the D7's) from the first film could cloak.
Post edited by artan42 on
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Don't forget how seriously the Defiant from the mirrorverse punked the Ginormous Mirror Klingon battleship. As Riker said in First Contact: "Tough little ship".
Yeah.. after it was sabotaged to disable it's shields and weapons.... Anything will look impressive in that scenario.
One quantum torpedo and the bridge is gone. And the good thing? You can target it from almost ever angle. By the time the Vengeance (idiotic name) has deployed its super weapon there will be nobody left on the bridge to fire it.
Hey don't insult the name, My Andorian tac officer captains a Prometheus class called the U.S.S. Revenger.
They're cheating and somehow equipped our Fireworks Party Favors / Disco Balls in all their weapon slots.
I dunno, I think disco ball torpedoes would be way OP. all the enemy ships are too busy dancing to fight back, Until we can equip subspace party nulifiers in ship device slots that is...
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
1. The technology as shown in the Reboot films is far ahead of what was portrayed in TOS and early films.
2. The Vengeance isn't an ordinary starship. It was built using whiz-bang goodies, designed by a genetically engineered super-genius, and was superior to the "state of the art" Constitution.
It would probably give the "Prime" universe Defiant a run for it's money at the very least.
Nero mopped the floor, with half of Starfleet...IN A MINING VESSEL! from the prime universe future.
Defiant is a WARSHIP from the prime universe future.
Nero mopped the floor, with half of Starfleet...IN A MINING VESSEL! from the prime universe future.
Defiant is a WARSHIP from the prime universe future.
You kinda forgot the bit where that mining vessel had been upgraded with Borg tech...
Nero mopped the floor, with half of Starfleet...IN A MINING VESSEL! from the prime universe future.
Defiant is a WARSHIP from the prime universe future.
You kinda forgot the bit where that mining vessel had been upgraded with Borg tech...
Still think that Defiant would've smoked Nero too.Weapon;s officer blindfolded, Troi in command.
Nero mopped the floor, with half of Starfleet...IN A MINING VESSEL! from the prime universe future.
Defiant is a WARSHIP from the prime universe future.
You kinda forgot the bit where that mining vessel had been upgraded with Borg tech...
Still think that Defiant would've smoked Nero too.Weapon;s officer blindfolded, Troi in command.
USS Defiant would still win with Captain Wesley Crusher in command. The Defiant as-is from DS9 was ridiculously OP for something that size. R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S
If the AR follows the same general technological development line as the Prime Universe... the Klingons won't get Cloak tech until the 2270s or so.
It doesn't during the Kobayashi Maru scene McCoy mentioned some simulated Klingons ships decloaking so the federation at least believes the Klingons had the tech in the late 2250s.
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Haha I was just watching those sequences on youtube.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
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colored text = mod mode
Only the original Defiant had a cloak, and cloaks can be beaten. This is a Starfleet that is engaged in a cold war with the Klingons that they expect to go hot, soon. Do you really think they're just going to cross their fingers when it comes to Klingon cloaking devices? And they still share a border with the Romulans, too.
Lense Flares don't make for good firepower.
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colored text = mod mode
Unless the Klingons are brain-dead they only didn't have cloaks until they encountered the Xyrillians or the Suliban, so at least 2161.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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And that's if the Defiant doesn't cheese it out by coming out of cloaks with a single salvo of Quantum Torps on bare hull
For a real world example, given by many above. Compare today's sport car Engine with engines of sport cars than 50 years ago. Modern cars can have the same power with a small Engine.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Problems is that Vengeance weapons doesnt necessary have the punsch to break the Defiants shield. The tech leap in all it glory, the Defiant was a small ship, but extremly powerful and resilient small ship. Not your granddaddys Mirandas...
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
If Federation ships are inferior combat ships.. then what does that make the other factions ships with "dedicated" warships?
I mean if these so called Federation inferior combat ships and able to beat all these militaristic Empires with there "dedicated" combat ships... they should be darn worried if the Federation really wanted to fight >.>
Well, technically, at this point in time, the Klingons didn't use to have cloaking technology yet. They got that during TOS from the Romulans. And I believe Romulan cloaking capabilities were unknown until the events of Balance of Terror.
Of course, the timeline being screwed around with as much as it was, all bets are off, I suppose. Maybe the Klingon-Romulan technology exchange happened earlier, or in a different manner. It didn't seem that the Narada had cloaking technology, though, so it does not seem it could come from there.
Oh, of course, a extragalactic weapon of a power not seen even in the VOY era is something Starfleet should be strapping onto all their ships any day now.
The mirror Terrans had Suliban cloaks therefore the more advanced Klingons should have been able to. Both the Suliban and Xyrillians could be forced into retrofiting the cloaks for the Klingons if their own scientists weren't up to the job.
The Romulans had cloaks in ENT so the Federation must have known about them. The Klingons may not have cloaked on-screen until the TOS films, but there's nothing in canon to suggest the Romulans were stupid enough to give it to them.
Edit: The Klingon Warbirds (the D7's) from the first film could cloak.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
My character Tsin'xing
Hey don't insult the name, My Andorian tac officer captains a Prometheus class called the U.S.S. Revenger.
I dunno, I think disco ball torpedoes would be way OP. all the enemy ships are too busy dancing to fight back, Until we can equip subspace party nulifiers in ship device slots that is...
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
1. The technology as shown in the Reboot films is far ahead of what was portrayed in TOS and early films.
2. The Vengeance isn't an ordinary starship. It was built using whiz-bang goodies, designed by a genetically engineered super-genius, and was superior to the "state of the art" Constitution.
It would probably give the "Prime" universe Defiant a run for it's money at the very least.
Defiant is a WARSHIP from the prime universe future.
You kinda forgot the bit where that mining vessel had been upgraded with Borg tech...
Still think that Defiant would've smoked Nero too.Weapon;s officer blindfolded, Troi in command.
USS Defiant would still win with Captain Wesley Crusher in command. The Defiant as-is from DS9 was ridiculously OP for something that size. R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S
It doesn't during the Kobayashi Maru scene McCoy mentioned some simulated Klingons ships decloaking so the federation at least believes the Klingons had the tech in the late 2250s.
They didn't seem to have too much trouble with the one from Balance of Terror since the ship still showed up on motion sensors.