Yeah, Vengeance clearly had a MASSIVE reactor even for a ship that enormous size. and it had a LOT of beam arrays so what if they're "weak" by 24th century standards? That's still a lot of firepower. and as we saw in TNG, the strength of a shield system is in large part based on how much energy is being pumped into it.
Plus it depends on what changed technologically over the years.
I remember in another discussion about the Vengeance someone pointed out that modern naval warships don't really have the firepower to deal with the armored hulls of older warships since they aren't expected to deal with that sort of thing anymore.
Exactly. Doesn't matter if the Defiant's phaser cannons are super powerful, they are forward facing. So if you nail it with a tractor beam while it's facing away, it isn't hitting you with nearly as powerful shots. Tactics often trump firepower.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Th is a joke right? bootlegged savaged 24th Century tech with 23th Century level tech knowledge vs pure 24th Century tech and indutrial level?
Got a problem with size? Try to compensate for something? When you get it right you dont need it big, want big ships? go Watch Star Wars with it multi-kilometer ships. Pit the Kongou-class battlecruiser against the modern Tinconderoga cruiser and you'll see, and they are not even 100 year apart from each other.
Oh, ever noticed that Defiant is quite nimble? you know, not a slow manuvering whale?
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
USS Defiant from DS9, as-is, vs JJ-verse Vengeance as shown in Into Darkness? One is way older technology. Defiant all the way. It'll be like taking IJN Yamato against HMS Victory. It's not going to end well for the older ship.
More like a modern fast attack craft against the HMS Warrior IMO. The size difference would still be a factor, despite the technology gap.
Plus it depends on what changed technologically over the years.
I remember in another discussion about the Vengeance someone pointed out that modern naval warships don't really have the firepower to deal with the armored hulls of older warships since they aren't expected to deal with that sort of thing anymore.
Old battleships were built to last, Bismarck took huge amount of shells Before it sunk (though much less to crippled it). The Nagato that is used inoperation Crossroad took a nuke and survived, plus Nagato is the closest ship to the explosion.
But cruisers and Destroyers? I somewhat doubt that.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
USS Defiant from DS9, as-is, vs JJ-verse Vengeance as shown in Into Darkness? One is way older technology. Defiant all the way. It'll be like taking IJN Yamato against HMS Victory. It's not going to end well for the older ship.
More like a modern fast attack craft against the HMS Warrior IMO. The size difference would still be a factor, despite the technology gap.
The Defiant packed A LOT of punch for a ship its size, even in TNG/DS9/Dominion War technology standards. The Defiant is the ship that breaks a lot of rules in Star Trek canon, namely bigger ships = big combat power. Firepower focused forward with numerous phaser weapons, quantum torpedoes. Maneuverability to easily present its weapons.
It's would be like Yamato's 18-inch/460mm guns smashing on a wooden ship.
Yea... Except, the Alternate-universe Enterprise runs on a brewery size warpcore... Hence, not more advanced... If anything, they are LESS advanced and have something to compensate for, so they use size to do so.
The size of the warpcore has nothing do to with technological advantage. Is the NX more advanced than the Sovereign because it has a smaller warpcore? No, it's simply a smaller ship.
Oh but it does... Very much so.
The warpcore of the JJ-Prise takes up a full deck... The WARP-CORE... and thats to supply enough power to keep the entire ship running.
Imagine how big the phaser emitters are... The sensor array... Life support?
Just because something is big, does not mean it's advanced. Merely that someone took shortcuts to allow for increased mass.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
USS Defiant from DS9, as-is, vs JJ-verse Vengeance as shown in Into Darkness? One is way older technology. Defiant all the way. It'll be like taking IJN Yamato against HMS Victory. It's not going to end well for the older ship.
More like a modern fast attack craft against the HMS Warrior IMO. The size difference would still be a factor, despite the technology gap.
More like super-Burke against Warrior. Defiant weren't the run-of-the-mill Cheyenne or Norway. That ship packs serious firepower.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Old battleships were built to last, Bismarck took huge amount of shells Before it sunk (though much less to crippled it). The Nagato that is used inoperation Crossroad took a nuke and survived, plus Nagato is the closest ship to the explosion.
But cruisers and Destroyers? I somewhat doubt that.
The nuke in question was detonated 1.5 kilometers away from the Nagato.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Old battleships were built to last, Bismarck took huge amount of shells Before it sunk (though much less to crippled it). The Nagato that is used inoperation Crossroad took a nuke and survived, plus Nagato is the closest ship to the explosion.
But cruisers and Destroyers? I somewhat doubt that.
The nuke in question was detonated 1.5 kilometers away from the Nagato.
It is only 914 meter. Suffered Moderate damage
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
More like super-Burke against Warrior. Defiant weren't the run-of-the-mill Cheyenne or Norway. That ship packs serious firepower.
No. The Defiant is a fast attack ship. The Burke class destroyer is more like an Akira.
Problems is the Defiant doesnt really have a good comparison real life... The quantum torpedo and quad phasers are some damn powerful weapons...
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Problems is the Defiant doesnt really have a good comparison real life... The quantum torpedo and quad phasers are some damn powerful weapons...
The Defiant IMO is a pair of howitzers strapped to the deck of a PT boat.
Damn tough PT-boat perhaps, Defiant class had some good shields and special armor too.
Dont forget the quads are very powerful.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Yeah, Vengeance clearly had a MASSIVE reactor even for a ship that enormous size. and it had a LOT of beam arrays so what if they're "weak" by 24th century standards? That's still a lot of firepower. and as we saw in TNG, the strength of a shield system is in large part based on how much energy is being pumped into it.
A shitload of 7.62mm guns will not be as powerful as a large anti-ship naval gun. Plus warpcore efficiency has alot of thing to do with it, cooling, waste energy on the reactor and the transfer in EPS realys. How much energy the weaposn material can take Before they melt, how much can the mag-field of reactor confine
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Damn tough PT-boat perhaps, Defiant class had some good shields and special armor too.
Dont forget the quads are very powerful.
Problem with shields though is that they are pretty much always the first system to go down in a firefight. In all-out war, it seems like the primary defensive tactic is evasion, because if you use all your power trying to keep the shields up, especially for a smaller ship like the Defiant, then your offensive capabilities suffer. So you let your armor take the hits that you don't evade, and leave your power to weapons and engines. Same tactic I use in-game, because if my shields go down (and they will), shield power won't help me evade hits.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
A shitload of 7.62mm guns will not be as powerful as a large anti-ship naval gun. Plus warpcore efficiency has alot of thing to do with it, cooling, waste energy on the reactor and the transfer in EPS realys. How much energy the weaposn material can take Before they melt, how much can the mag-field of reactor confine
Well, more like a Vulcan M61A2 20mm autocannon vs a 150mm heavy cannon. But you might be surprised at exactly how destructive an M134 gatling gun can be.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Plus it depends on what changed technologically over the years.
I remember in another discussion about the Vengeance someone pointed out that modern naval warships don't really have the firepower to deal with the armored hulls of older warships since they aren't expected to deal with that sort of thing anymore.
And you think that current developement would be the same in Star Trek?
Size doesn't matterm uch when you have better armor, better shields and better weapons. The only thing OP compares is the size of the ships and nothing more, then makes some kind of overall judgment call.
It basically like comparing a heavily armored oversized steam boat to a modern destroyer type warship.
Technology trumps everything in Star Trek. (or some bull**** plot device)
Technology trumps everything in Star Trek, except when it doesn't. Star Trek canon isn't very consistent.
If that's your only argument why the Vengeance would overpower the Defiant, then i have this for you:
A regular sized banana. Through some unforeseen consequences and a string of freak accidents it will reliably eiliminate the whole crew of one Dreadnought class starship ... if the plot allows it. As we all know, the crew of such a starship isn't very big, so it's likely to happen.
No, but seriously. Everything is orders of magnitude more advanced 200 years in the future (from JJTrek).
If that's your only argument why the Vengeance would overpower the defiant then i have this for you:
A regular sized banana. Through some unforseen consequences and a string of freak accidents it will reliably eiliminated the whole crew of one Dreadnought class starship ... if the plot allows it. As we all know, the crew of such a starship isn't very big, so it's likely to happen.
No, but seriously. Everything is orders of magnitude more advanced 200 years in the future (from JJTrek).
I'm not entirely sure what the point of the banana analogy was. And the technology gap is significantly smaller than 200 years. Not accounting for the alternate reality's leap in technology, the time gap is only 111 years (Defiant launched in 2370, Vengeance launched in 2259)
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I'm not entirely sure what the point of the banana analogy was. And the technology gap is significantly smaller than 200 years. Not accounting for the alternate reality's leap in technology, the time gap is only 111 years (Defiant launched in 2370, Vengeance launched in 2259)
The analogy was there to showcase that even the most asinine plot device can be used to destroy any starship. The defiant got held by the Lakota in "Paradise Lost", a refit, but still somewhat older than the defiant. The defiant could take severe punishment when fighting against multiple bug ships, the same kind of ships that destroyed a Galaxy class starship.
I already wrote that technology trumps everything if there isn't plot involved that is ...
So if you want to actually compare something do it based on somthing else, but not just size alone.
Here is a nice site: look up what kind of weapon systems the different starships had. ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=feddefiant&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed
The warpcore of the JJ-Prise takes up a full deck... The WARP-CORE... and thats to supply enough power to keep the entire ship running.
Imagine how big the phaser emitters are... The sensor array... Life support?
Just because something is big, does not mean it's advanced. Merely that someone took shortcuts to allow for increased mass.
Its the opposite , theorically. The technology is supossed to advance in the way, more advanced - smaller. The most advanced is a starship, smaller should be the warpcore. But it doesnt have to be that way either. The fact is, we dont know and we will never know, period..
Its the opposite , theorically. The technology is supossed to advance in the way, more advanced - smaller. The most advanced is a starship, smaller should be the warpcore. But it doesnt have to be that way either. The fact is, we dont know and we will never know, period..
Well... we never got to really see the Warp Core in TOS. Engineering was not that big on TV, so in theory the actual size of the core could be comparably similar. They just had a more industral feel to Engineering in the movie, which made it feel more like the beating heart of a starship than one rather empty room ever did.
Yeah, Vengeance clearly had a MASSIVE reactor even for a ship that enormous size. and it had a LOT of beam arrays so what if they're "weak" by 24th century standards? That's still a lot of firepower. and as we saw in TNG, the strength of a shield system is in large part based on how much energy is being pumped into it.
A shitload of 7.62mm guns will not be as powerful as a large anti-ship naval gun. Plus warpcore efficiency has alot of thing to do with it, cooling, waste energy on the reactor and the transfer in EPS realys. How much energy the weaposn material can take Before they melt, how much can the mag-field of reactor confine
And in this case? Well, the Vengeance was disabled by several torpedoes being detonated INSIDE it. These torpedoes had been developed by Khan and were more powerful than those used by Voyager. And they were insufficient to destroy the vessel. This suggests that the Defiant would have to work a lot harder to disable it than to disable a Keldon.... which were obsolete junk by the standards of DS9 anyways.
Actually.... that's part of the tech difference I think. In Nu-Trek, part of Starfleet's arsenal was based on Khan's ideas.
Plus it depends on what changed technologically over the years.
I remember in another discussion about the Vengeance someone pointed out that modern naval warships don't really have the firepower to deal with the armored hulls of older warships since they aren't expected to deal with that sort of thing anymore.
And you think that current development would be the same in Star Trek?
Size doesn't matter much when you have better armor, better shields and better weapons.
On the other hand 24th century trek ships seemed more fragile then 23rd century ships as the 23rd century ones could take an utter pounding and still be somewhat flyable and 24th century ships cough galaxy cough took concerdably less damage and then exploded. Also Voyager seemed to have trouble taking on a D7 while a TOS Connie could one shot them. So there seemed to be some slacking in the starship design department in the century between.
Besides the Vengeance also has the advantage of long rang stealth torpedoes.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
Exactly. Doesn't matter if the Defiant's phaser cannons are super powerful, they are forward facing. So if you nail it with a tractor beam while it's facing away, it isn't hitting you with nearly as powerful shots. Tactics often trump firepower.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Got a problem with size? Try to compensate for something? When you get it right you dont need it big, want big ships? go Watch Star Wars with it multi-kilometer ships. Pit the Kongou-class battlecruiser against the modern Tinconderoga cruiser and you'll see, and they are not even 100 year apart from each other.
Oh, ever noticed that Defiant is quite nimble? you know, not a slow manuvering whale?
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Old battleships were built to last, Bismarck took huge amount of shells Before it sunk (though much less to crippled it). The Nagato that is used inoperation Crossroad took a nuke and survived, plus Nagato is the closest ship to the explosion.
But cruisers and Destroyers? I somewhat doubt that.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
The Defiant packed A LOT of punch for a ship its size, even in TNG/DS9/Dominion War technology standards. The Defiant is the ship that breaks a lot of rules in Star Trek canon, namely bigger ships = big combat power. Firepower focused forward with numerous phaser weapons, quantum torpedoes. Maneuverability to easily present its weapons.
It's would be like Yamato's 18-inch/460mm guns smashing on a wooden ship.
Oh but it does... Very much so.
The warpcore of the JJ-Prise takes up a full deck... The WARP-CORE... and thats to supply enough power to keep the entire ship running.
Imagine how big the phaser emitters are... The sensor array... Life support?
Just because something is big, does not mean it's advanced. Merely that someone took shortcuts to allow for increased mass.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
The nuke in question was detonated 1.5 kilometers away from the Nagato.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
No. The Defiant is a fast attack ship. The Burke class destroyer is more like an Akira.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Come back with a real argument.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Problems is the Defiant doesnt really have a good comparison real life... The quantum torpedo and quad phasers are some damn powerful weapons...
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
The Defiant IMO is a pair of howitzers strapped to the deck of a PT boat.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Damn tough PT-boat perhaps, Defiant class had some good shields and special armor too.
Dont forget the quads are very powerful.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
A shitload of 7.62mm guns will not be as powerful as a large anti-ship naval gun. Plus warpcore efficiency has alot of thing to do with it, cooling, waste energy on the reactor and the transfer in EPS realys. How much energy the weaposn material can take Before they melt, how much can the mag-field of reactor confine
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Problem with shields though is that they are pretty much always the first system to go down in a firefight. In all-out war, it seems like the primary defensive tactic is evasion, because if you use all your power trying to keep the shields up, especially for a smaller ship like the Defiant, then your offensive capabilities suffer. So you let your armor take the hits that you don't evade, and leave your power to weapons and engines. Same tactic I use in-game, because if my shields go down (and they will), shield power won't help me evade hits.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Well, more like a Vulcan M61A2 20mm autocannon vs a 150mm heavy cannon. But you might be surprised at exactly how destructive an M134 gatling gun can be.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
And you think that current developement would be the same in Star Trek?
Size doesn't matterm uch when you have better armor, better shields and better weapons. The only thing OP compares is the size of the ships and nothing more, then makes some kind of overall judgment call.
It basically like comparing a heavily armored oversized steam boat to a modern destroyer type warship.
Technology trumps everything in Star Trek. (or some bull**** plot device)
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
If that's your only argument why the Vengeance would overpower the Defiant, then i have this for you:
A regular sized banana. Through some unforeseen consequences and a string of freak accidents it will reliably eiliminate the whole crew of one Dreadnought class starship ... if the plot allows it. As we all know, the crew of such a starship isn't very big, so it's likely to happen.
No, but seriously. Everything is orders of magnitude more advanced 200 years in the future (from JJTrek).
I'm not entirely sure what the point of the banana analogy was. And the technology gap is significantly smaller than 200 years. Not accounting for the alternate reality's leap in technology, the time gap is only 111 years (Defiant launched in 2370, Vengeance launched in 2259)
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
The analogy was there to showcase that even the most asinine plot device can be used to destroy any starship. The defiant got held by the Lakota in "Paradise Lost", a refit, but still somewhat older than the defiant. The defiant could take severe punishment when fighting against multiple bug ships, the same kind of ships that destroyed a Galaxy class starship.
I already wrote that technology trumps everything if there isn't plot involved that is ...
So if you want to actually compare something do it based on somthing else, but not just size alone.
Here is a nice site: look up what kind of weapon systems the different starships had.
ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=feddefiant&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed
Its the opposite , theorically. The technology is supossed to advance in the way, more advanced - smaller. The most advanced is a starship, smaller should be the warpcore. But it doesnt have to be that way either. The fact is, we dont know and we will never know, period..
Well... we never got to really see the Warp Core in TOS. Engineering was not that big on TV, so in theory the actual size of the core could be comparably similar. They just had a more industral feel to Engineering in the movie, which made it feel more like the beating heart of a starship than one rather empty room ever did.
Come back with a real argument.[/quote]
The movies was junk, so therefore the ships are junk. As they should be hauled away as garbage.
http://www.cbs.com/shows/star_trek/video/1222890083/hauled-away-as-garbage/
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Like I said, a real argument.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Actually.... that's part of the tech difference I think. In Nu-Trek, part of Starfleet's arsenal was based on Khan's ideas.
My character Tsin'xing
On the other hand 24th century trek ships seemed more fragile then 23rd century ships as the 23rd century ones could take an utter pounding and still be somewhat flyable and 24th century ships cough galaxy cough took concerdably less damage and then exploded. Also Voyager seemed to have trouble taking on a D7 while a TOS Connie could one shot them. So there seemed to be some slacking in the starship design department in the century between.
Besides the Vengeance also has the advantage of long rang stealth torpedoes.