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Defiant vs Vengeance?
themetalstickman
Member Posts: 1,010 Arc User
So I came across this image a few minutes ago...
I'm not sure this has been thought through by whoever created it. A few photos for scale:
Gonna state the obvious here, the Defiant is dwarfed by the Excelsior, which is in turn massively dwarfed by the Vengeance, or "Dreadnought-class."
And some people still wonder why the Prime-universe, 24th-century Federation is considered weak and pacifistic. They built a mosquito to fight the Borg.
I'm not sure this has been thought through by whoever created it. A few photos for scale:
Gonna state the obvious here, the Defiant is dwarfed by the Excelsior, which is in turn massively dwarfed by the Vengeance, or "Dreadnought-class."
And some people still wonder why the Prime-universe, 24th-century Federation is considered weak and pacifistic. They built a mosquito to fight the Borg.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
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This.
Thanks to it's way superior shields & weapons the defiant would rip the Vengeance a new one.
The better question would be in the J.J. Verse, if it continues, what kind of insane monster would a J.J. Defiant be? I would imagine it having at least twice the firepower of the prime universe Defiant.
You seem to compare the input of 2 completely different classes of ships on the battlefield which have completely different roles and purposes.
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And because they're more militaristic, would also feature more advanced armor composites and probably redundant shielding systems. They would also probably look like a cross between the Defiant and an F-117 or F-22 (neither of which, the Phantom seems to emulate).
But I'd give it to the Defiant; simply because of a 200 year advantage. Now if the Abramsverse continues to straddle the military-centric line between Mirrorverse Terrans and Primeverse Feds, it's possible that in 200 years the Abramsverse ships would be more potent than either.
That's a very good point you're bringing up there. The thing is I'm not sure they would build a "defiant" at all. Nero's and Spock's meddling have changed a wohle lot in the federation's development. A constitution being triple the size of the prime counterpart, federation dreadnoughts, planetary bombardment from extremely far distances, beaming over very very far distances (earth to qo'nos) and of course a cure for death. I really don't think they would still develop in a similar fashion to the prime universe.
Yeah, with the way the J.J. Verse is developing, its more likely the federation would develop the borg cube before going smaller. The J.J. Borg should be absolutely insane, one-shotting planets or something. I think it will be interesting to see how the J.J. verse develops now that J.J. is in a galaxy far far away. Simon Peg is writing the next movie, so a Scottie centered movie could be very cool. Apparently he is a big Trek fan, so it would be interesting to see if he attempts to pull it more in line with the prime universe.
I don't think the borg would be much different. Most changes the time travel shenanigans caused were federation and alpha quadrant related, there really wasn't anything that influenced the borg in the DQ till now. If anything they will be less of threat (compared to the inital encouer of the D at least) since starfleet and probably other powers in AQ will have more advanced technology at that point.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
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'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
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But that one was refitted with state of the art tech form the 24th century, even the the refits from back then (enterprise-B as an example) are still way behind that.
But how well would that work? Ingame terms it's putting a Mk XIV epic shield on a T2 ship, should be good enough for a lot of things, but still not as good as a T5 with white XII's.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The Defiant-class is not meant to be an uber-ship. It's a cheap, disposable corvette with overpowered guns designed to swarm and overwhelm large targets, not take them one-on-one like Starfleet tried to do at Wolf 359 with ordinary capital ships. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if that was part of why the project was originally killed: Somebody at Starfleet Command probably didn't like the idea of a starship crew being considered "disposable".
In any event, even with The Sisko at the helm, the Defiant never scored an on-screen kill against anything bigger than a Breen cruiser, and the Lakota would have won that encounter but for Capt. Benteen's conscience.
EDIT: Accidentally wiped my previous post.
now the way it was done in one game's cutscene was way cooler. (having the Defiant fly inside a D'D to borrow it's shields)
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Being one of the strongest ships in that fleet, the Defiant would have been a prime target for the borg, and even with 25% of it's outer hull D-E-S-T-R-O-Y-E-D it was still going pretty strong when the Enterprise arrived.
Add to that, that the Defiant is almost 100 years ahead of the Vengeance, has tech that they had not even thought about (2 Quantum torps can destroy a Galor, for example), It would be a cake-walk for the Defiant.
Uh the Defiant could have won much sooner too if they opened up with q-torps. The whole point of that scene was that neither side was willing to kill the other, but both sides could have given their combat capabilities.
Plus there's the Keldon-class cruiser which the Defiant took out with one volley of q-torps in 'Defiant'.
Plus there was the Regent's Super-Negh'var cruiser which the Defiant fought to a standstill, despite being outmassed considerably. And before you go 'but wait, alternate universe!' Smiley built that Defiant with stolen plans from the prime universe.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
JJ tech is all flash and no bang. I woudln't be surprised if it turns out the blasters they use are just prop guns and fireworks
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Yea... Except, the Alternate-universe Enterprise runs on a brewery size warpcore... Hence, not more advanced... If anything, they are LESS advanced and have something to compensate for, so they use size to do so.
The size of the warpcore has nothing do to with technological advantage. Is the NX more advanced than the Sovereign because it has a smaller warpcore? No, it's simply a smaller ship.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
There's also the lack of any acutal canon data on her size, but based on visual clues... yea... she's about 366 meters.
As to this debate between the Vengence and Defiant, Defiant would have an advantage in maneuverability and firepower, being 100 years more advanced. Although not as powerful as the Narada, the Defiant does come from about maybe 10-20 years before the Narada was thrown back in time. More advanced Phasers and QUANTUM torpedoes would make her a beast compared to anything available in the 23rd Century.
They did get a minor tech upgrade based on what they learned from sensor scans of the Narada, but not enough to put them on par with 24th Century tech. A good example of tech differences can be seen in the Narada fights from the movie and prequel comic. As seen in Star Trek Countdown, the 1701-E and the Narada engaged each other with their shields down. The 1701-E only took minor damage and had her engines knocked offline for a few minutes. Compare that to when the Narada engaged the alternate 1701 with her shields up and a single torpedo nearly destroyed her. Shields down to 30% from a single hit and they could not survive another.
They're cheating and somehow equipped our Fireworks Party Favors / Disco Balls in all their weapon slots.
More like a modern fast attack craft against the HMS Warrior IMO. The size difference would still be a factor, despite the technology gap.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Plus it depends on what changed technologically over the years.
I remember in another discussion about the Vengeance someone pointed out that modern naval warships don't really have the firepower to deal with the armored hulls of older warships since they aren't expected to deal with that sort of thing anymore.