The butch femme complaint is an interesting one. I guess today we see much more (hmm I guess q,u,e,e,r is blocked) identification amongst the young that defies these descriptors. However, observation shows that many if not most relationships have some sort of butch femme dynamic - call it yin yang. And this holds true for heterosexuals as well. Very often with the woman being dominant these days. They really need to stop putting so much estrogen in the food and water.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
The butch femme complaint is an interesting one. I guess today we see much more "*****" identification amongst the young that defies these descriptors. However, observation shows that many if not most relationships have some sort of butch femme dynamic - call it yin yang. And this holds true for heterosexuals as well. Very often with the woman being dominant these days. They really need to stop putting so much estrogen in the food and water.
Haha, nice one. But honestly, if a woman has a commanding presence and is strong, she's suddenly butch. I think personally, it's a double standard.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
But again, my main issue is that is entirely unnecessary and her protectiveness of her mate comes across as unreasonable, as the moment her mate is in danger she will ditch everything and save her, that attitude in the military is simply NOT TOLERATED and one of the reasons why they allow people in relationships to server together (even bothers, I am putting familiar relationships as well) if they can avoid since it can negatively impact on how they will react under stress.
she will be coming with us.. this suggests that the scientist is not usually a member of the crew (in fact we see her elsewhere normally, where she references her mate) for all intense purposes we have a civilian along for this special ops mission.. it would be stranger if her mate wasn't being extra concerned or protective. do people not think past the text in its literal sense, and actually consider the circumstances surrounding the NPC and how that adds to their individual back story and how that in turn can provide relevance to the current story.
And Star Trek was the first time a woman, and a black woman at that held such a role. Too bad the original exec for the Enterprise couldn't have made it into the show. Just to show women could hack the job.
I liked the choice that "the alien looking like the devil" could stay, but the woman as second in command had to leave.
Though that was simply the spirit of the age.
If it had been they were sisters, do you honestly believe people would be displaying this behavior?
They might be from Klingon Alabama - where me and my "sister" lived for several years.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I find it disappointing that so many must dwell upon what others take to the bedroom so long as it if of legal age and consenting.
Almost more disappointing however, is that this thread has devolved in to a mess of pseudo-scientific babbling and somehow managed to drag dogs of all things in as well.
I would advise all who have drifted down this terrible path to please take a moment to rethink their lives and where they went wrong.
That said, that mission was sub-par and the couple in question simply shoehorned in right along with the utterly pointless waste of Khaless as a character.
Yes, there is a difference between the chromosomes and sexuality, and chromosomes are what determine biological sex. The ZYGOTE is ALREADY male or female or intersex, before it even becomes a fetus. Sexuality is not "male" and "female." It's Homosexual, Bisexual, Heterosexual, or Asexual. And it does not develop at puberty. Children as young as 4 and 5 have attraction to others.
you should read carefully what i wrote. where i have written the contrary????
Children as young as 4 and 5 have attraction to others.
indeed, but this is not sexuality like the sexuality of the adults. the psyche takes a huge part in the sexuality (adult sexuality), children can't have this kind of psyche. A young boy can be attracted by other boys, and when he will be adult not obligatory homosexual. this is why i wrote that children are asexual, because they don't have a defined sexuality.
Intersex (of which "hermaphrodite" is one type, and a term which is considered rude) is not the same thing as Transsexuality. And "impregnated" is not what happens. In gestation, the brain of the fetus receives a hormone wash from the mother's body (while the sex organs are still differentiating), and it doesn't always correspond with the chromosomal sex.
lol, please read my previous post. where i have written, that hermaphrodism is like transsexualiy??
you want facts from books: (oh! and please, don't write "you should read books" etc)
"The karyotype of hermaphrodites results of alterations in the sex chromosomes (sex chromosomes) giving mosaics (about 30%) to both cell populations resulting from the fusion of two zygotes of different sexes."
the fact is that your previous post about transexuallity was wrong. i wrote: NOT BE CONFUSED
I find it disappointing that so many must dwell upon what others take to the bedroom so long as it if of legal age and consenting.
Almost more disappointing however, is that this thread has devolved in to a mess of pseudo-scientific babbling and somehow managed to drag dogs of all things in as well.
I would advise all who have drifted down this terrible path to please take a moment to rethink their lives and where they went wrong.
That said, that mission was sub-par and the couple in question simply shoehorned in right along with the utterly pointless waste of Khaless as a character.
Amazing how that gets lost IN "Klingon lesbians?" -desk flip-
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
The concern that I can see is that unlike Humans, Klingons are not a very progressive society.
They are very much an old feudal and traditional patriarchal society that put A LOT of wieght of the importance of bloodlines.
While women may fight equal to men as warriors on the battlefield, they may not hold seats on the Klingon High Council, nor may they be heads of their own houses unless given special dispensation.
I very much doubt that the great houses woud look favorably upon homosexuality as it could very well constitute the end of a bloodline and house. So I guess it kind of makes sense to see a TRIBBLE couple as being part of a group of social outcasts.
The concern that I can see is that unlike Humans, Klingons are not a very progressive society.
They are very much an old feudal and traditional patriarchal society that put A LOT of wieght of the importance of bloodlines.
While women may fight equal to men as warriors on the battlefield, they may not hold seats on the Klingon High Council, nor may they be heads of their own houses unless given special dispensation.
I very much doubt that the great houses woud look favorably upon homosexuality as it could very well constitute the end of a bloodline and house. So I guess it kind of makes sense to see a TRIBBLE couple as being part of a group of social outcasts.
And along this line, it would be perfectly natural to find them in an oddball unit such as this. I know weird concept right?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
That said, that mission was sub-par and the couple in question simply shoehorned in right along with the utterly pointless waste of Khaless as a character.
Indeed. There was no reason to visit that klingon bridge, such banal communications didn't require a character to be beamed over. There are better ways to introduce new npcs, regardless of their relationships. This is not one of them.
Normally the inclusion of a same sex couple would be seen as forward thinking. However in this case, Cryptic were clearly fishing for complements and trying to distract from the mission's poor quality and the predictability of what happened to the Khaless clone.
Also predictable, a sad majority of the player-base has latched onto it (though I suspect a great many of the men roleplaying lesbians in this game would not be so pleased if the same sex couple were male). So good job Cryptic, exactly as planned?
The mission's environments were a nice change of scenery though. Wasted, but nice.
(...)
Normally the inclusion of a same sex couple would be seen as forward thinking. However in this case, Cryptic were clearly fishing for complements and trying to distract from the mission's poor quality and the predictability of what happened to the Khaless clone.
(...)
How? The same would have played out exactly if the words "her mate" wouldn't have been used or if this couple were male and female. What Cryptic did was to include those characters just as casual as other NPCs in the game. Anyone who honestly thinks this was some king od political agenda, especially those poeple continously claiming that SJW are "out to get them", have some serious issues that need to be dealt with.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
you should read carefully what i wrote. where i have written the contrary????
indeed, but this is not sexuality like the sexuality of the adults. the psyche takes a huge part in the sexuality (adult sexuality), children can't have this kind of psyche. A young boy can be attracted by other boys, and when he will be adult not obligatory homosexual. this is why i wrote that children are asexual, because they don't have a defined sexuality.
lol, please read my previous post. where i have written, that hermaphrodism is like transsexualiy??
you want facts from books: (oh! and please, don't write "you should read books" etc)
"The karyotype of hermaphrodites results of alterations in the sex chromosomes (sex chromosomes) giving mosaics (about 30%) to both cell populations resulting from the fusion of two zygotes of different sexes."
the fact is that your previous post about transexuallity was wrong. i wrote: NOT BE CONFUSED
Educate yourself. I know what I'm talking about, because I have taken the time to study things like this. Here, a host of articles from the scientific and medical community, legal cases, peer-reviewed scholarly journals, etc.
Educate yourself. I know what I'm talking about, because I have taken the time to study things like this. Here, a host of articles from the scientific and medical community, legal cases, peer-reviewed scholarly journals, etc.
OK, can we please get off the science debate of homosexuality please? It's a waste of time and way the hell off topic.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Educate yourself. I know what I'm talking about, because I have taken the time to study things like this. Here, a host of articles from the scientific and medical community, legal cases, peer-reviewed scholarly journals, etc.
I have severe doubts that you would be able to "know what you are talking about" if asked how one ties one's shoes given your quite notable history of posting in other threads.
That said, this thread is now descending in to the realms of slapfighting, random outbursts of supposed (but blatantly lacking) "knowledge" and weird attempts to edge it in to the dreaded abyss we call "erotic fan fiction".
Why it is turning in to this, instead of a series of light golf claps and soft mutterings of congratulations towards Cryptic on showing a progressive stance on a societal issue that in reality should not even be an issue, is beyond me.
Edit: I stand corrected, they took this stance a good while ago I have just been informed.
B'Eler is the KDF faction contact during the mission "Spin the Wheel", and mentions during conversation that she has a female mate.
I thought the episode was great, and to be honest "the couple" was the only issue I had with it and then primarily because it seemed to be a gratuitous inclusion that served no real purpose to the story of the mission.
I thought the episode was great, and to be honest "the couple" was the only issue I had with it and then primarily because it seemed to be a gratuitous inclusion that served no real purpose to the story of the mission.
I'm sure you would have preferred a Heterosexual couple then.
I have missed any outrage (due to not being in the forums), but I kinda disliked that they set up the one of the two as overly protective but didn't really follow through with it.
I kinda was expecting the protective one to stab me in the back or something. Or at least have some other point in the mission where it would be relevant again and I had to do some convincing or some complications.
But I guess the game just will always remain on a more or less superficial level of characterization for NPCs. It just can't get into the depth neccessary both in writing and acting to give us more. It's not like the episodes we play in are made with the typical Hollywood dramatic series episode budget!
On the plus side- I came as a dang Admiral and got to alter the mission parameters because that's what Admirals can do.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I'm sure you would have preferred a Heterosexual couple then.
Actually, it's probably a reference to the fact there was no reason for our characters to beam over to that ship other than 'look at the lesbians, see players, aren't we progressive!'. Alas for Cryptic, it's fallen flat.
Actually, it's probably a reference to the fact there was no reason for our characters to beam over to that ship other than 'look at the lesbians, see players, aren't we progressive!'. Alas for Cryptic, it's fallen flat.
What I got from this thread is that there must be reason for there to be a same sex couple in the mission and that it must be intertwined with the story in some way, but if this were a Heterosexual couple then no one would question it, it's interesting that as soon as you change what could have been a Heterosexual couple into a same sex one the mission goes from being about the story to being all about the gross TRIBBLE couple.
Did Cryptic drag everyone's attention to the TRIBBLE Klingons or is it the players giving it too much attention? why must there be a reason for them being a couple, a Heterosexual couple wouldn't need explication so why do they?
The concern that I can see is that unlike Humans, Klingons are not a very progressive society.
They are very much an old feudal and traditional patriarchal society that put A LOT of wieght of the importance of bloodlines.
While women may fight equal to men as warriors on the battlefield, they may not hold seats on the Klingon High Council, nor may they be heads of their own houses unless given special dispensation.
I very much doubt that the great houses woud look favorably upon homosexuality as it could very well constitute the end of a bloodline and house. So I guess it kind of makes sense to see a TRIBBLE couple as being part of a group of social outcasts.
Not every bloodline or house will be prestigious, and there are lots of people not from noble houses. They might have a low more allowances in this regard.
And we've seen that Klingons also have no real issues with interracial marriages. (Worf was part of the House of Martok when he married Dax, and Martok's wife mostly seemed to oppose Jadzia based on her personality, even if some racism might also have played into it. B'elena was half-Klingon).
Also... With the technology available to the Klingons, I would not be surprised if a bloodline could "survive" a homosexual marriage.
Not to mention that some "bloodlines" aren'T bloodlines at all, like aformentioned Martok's wife family name was based on a family that had died out, but other Klingons took on the name to pretend the bloodline kept on - which was something that Jadzia could figure out without needing to do any top secret espionage missions apparently...
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Actually, it's probably a reference to the fact there was no reason for our characters to beam over to that ship other than 'look at the lesbians, see players, aren't we progressive!'. Alas for Cryptic, it's fallen flat.
We have no reason to beam to paris' ship as well. Every single part of missions that isn't actual shooting is irrelevant and wouldn't have to be shown to us or could be handled via viewscreens. But by doing so we get to do a little bit more than just shoot blinking bad guys.
Geez. If people had valid arguments that would speak against this scene it would be one thing. But grasping at straws like that.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Shoehorned in or not, I really don't care. I care about those who bring it up and make it a huge deal about it. Just like TRIBBLE marriage, as if it has something to do with yourself and not others loving each other differently than how you would love.
It's never good enough for anyone. If they exclude this kind of sexual orientation and make it known, they are sexist/discriminative. If they include it and make it known (which they didn't for the sake of 'look how progressive we are') it's as if they had to, to appease to minorities or something, like some token black guy.
It says more about yourself than Cryptic's writers.
This really is a lot of conversation on a fake relationship, ya know.
"Zomg this isn't how I imagined it would be in my head".
Is it good writing, no. Tacked on? Yea. Relevant? No. Groundbreaking, yes.
Move on.
When is the next "earth is in the alpha quadrant"' or "Klingons need a vesta" thread.
Comments
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Haha, nice one. But honestly, if a woman has a commanding presence and is strong, she's suddenly butch. I think personally, it's a double standard.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
she will be coming with us.. this suggests that the scientist is not usually a member of the crew (in fact we see her elsewhere normally, where she references her mate) for all intense purposes we have a civilian along for this special ops mission.. it would be stranger if her mate wasn't being extra concerned or protective. do people not think past the text in its literal sense, and actually consider the circumstances surrounding the NPC and how that adds to their individual back story and how that in turn can provide relevance to the current story.
I liked the choice that "the alien looking like the devil" could stay, but the woman as second in command had to leave.
Though that was simply the spirit of the age.
They might be from Klingon Alabama - where me and my "sister" lived for several years.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Almost more disappointing however, is that this thread has devolved in to a mess of pseudo-scientific babbling and somehow managed to drag dogs of all things in as well.
I would advise all who have drifted down this terrible path to please take a moment to rethink their lives and where they went wrong.
That said, that mission was sub-par and the couple in question simply shoehorned in right along with the utterly pointless waste of Khaless as a character.
you should read carefully what i wrote. where i have written the contrary????
indeed, but this is not sexuality like the sexuality of the adults. the psyche takes a huge part in the sexuality (adult sexuality), children can't have this kind of psyche. A young boy can be attracted by other boys, and when he will be adult not obligatory homosexual. this is why i wrote that children are asexual, because they don't have a defined sexuality.
lol, please read my previous post. where i have written, that hermaphrodism is like transsexualiy??
you want facts from books: (oh! and please, don't write "you should read books" etc)
"The karyotype of hermaphrodites results of alterations in the sex chromosomes (sex chromosomes) giving mosaics (about 30%) to both cell populations resulting from the fusion of two zygotes of different sexes."
the fact is that your previous post about transexuallity was wrong. i wrote: NOT BE CONFUSED
Amazing how that gets lost IN "Klingon lesbians?" -desk flip-
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
They are very much an old feudal and traditional patriarchal society that put A LOT of wieght of the importance of bloodlines.
While women may fight equal to men as warriors on the battlefield, they may not hold seats on the Klingon High Council, nor may they be heads of their own houses unless given special dispensation.
I very much doubt that the great houses woud look favorably upon homosexuality as it could very well constitute the end of a bloodline and house. So I guess it kind of makes sense to see a TRIBBLE couple as being part of a group of social outcasts.
And along this line, it would be perfectly natural to find them in an oddball unit such as this. I know weird concept right?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Normally the inclusion of a same sex couple would be seen as forward thinking. However in this case, Cryptic were clearly fishing for complements and trying to distract from the mission's poor quality and the predictability of what happened to the Khaless clone.
Also predictable, a sad majority of the player-base has latched onto it (though I suspect a great many of the men roleplaying lesbians in this game would not be so pleased if the same sex couple were male). So good job Cryptic, exactly as planned?
The mission's environments were a nice change of scenery though. Wasted, but nice.
So they are Klingons from the Qo'noS version of Down Under?
How? The same would have played out exactly if the words "her mate" wouldn't have been used or if this couple were male and female. What Cryptic did was to include those characters just as casual as other NPCs in the game. Anyone who honestly thinks this was some king od political agenda, especially those poeple continously claiming that SJW are "out to get them", have some serious issues that need to be dealt with.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Educate yourself. I know what I'm talking about, because I have taken the time to study things like this. Here, a host of articles from the scientific and medical community, legal cases, peer-reviewed scholarly journals, etc.
OK, can we please get off the science debate of homosexuality please? It's a waste of time and way the hell off topic.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
I have severe doubts that you would be able to "know what you are talking about" if asked how one ties one's shoes given your quite notable history of posting in other threads.
That said, this thread is now descending in to the realms of slapfighting, random outbursts of supposed (but blatantly lacking) "knowledge" and weird attempts to edge it in to the dreaded abyss we call "erotic fan fiction".
Why it is turning in to this, instead of a series of light golf claps and soft mutterings of congratulations towards Cryptic on showing a progressive stance on a societal issue that in reality should not even be an issue, is beyond me.
Edit: I stand corrected, they took this stance a good while ago I have just been informed.
B'Eler is the KDF faction contact during the mission "Spin the Wheel", and mentions during conversation that she has a female mate.
You should watch the DS9 episode "Rejoined".
I'm sure you would have preferred a Heterosexual couple then.
I have missed any outrage (due to not being in the forums), but I kinda disliked that they set up the one of the two as overly protective but didn't really follow through with it.
I kinda was expecting the protective one to stab me in the back or something. Or at least have some other point in the mission where it would be relevant again and I had to do some convincing or some complications.
But I guess the game just will always remain on a more or less superficial level of characterization for NPCs. It just can't get into the depth neccessary both in writing and acting to give us more. It's not like the episodes we play in are made with the typical Hollywood dramatic series episode budget!
On the plus side- I came as a dang Admiral and got to alter the mission parameters because that's what Admirals can do.
What I got from this thread is that there must be reason for there to be a same sex couple in the mission and that it must be intertwined with the story in some way, but if this were a Heterosexual couple then no one would question it, it's interesting that as soon as you change what could have been a Heterosexual couple into a same sex one the mission goes from being about the story to being all about the gross TRIBBLE couple.
Did Cryptic drag everyone's attention to the TRIBBLE Klingons or is it the players giving it too much attention? why must there be a reason for them being a couple, a Heterosexual couple wouldn't need explication so why do they?
And we've seen that Klingons also have no real issues with interracial marriages. (Worf was part of the House of Martok when he married Dax, and Martok's wife mostly seemed to oppose Jadzia based on her personality, even if some racism might also have played into it. B'elena was half-Klingon).
Also... With the technology available to the Klingons, I would not be surprised if a bloodline could "survive" a homosexual marriage.
Not to mention that some "bloodlines" aren'T bloodlines at all, like aformentioned Martok's wife family name was based on a family that had died out, but other Klingons took on the name to pretend the bloodline kept on - which was something that Jadzia could figure out without needing to do any top secret espionage missions apparently...
We have no reason to beam to paris' ship as well. Every single part of missions that isn't actual shooting is irrelevant and wouldn't have to be shown to us or could be handled via viewscreens. But by doing so we get to do a little bit more than just shoot blinking bad guys.
Geez. If people had valid arguments that would speak against this scene it would be one thing. But grasping at straws like that.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
It's never good enough for anyone. If they exclude this kind of sexual orientation and make it known, they are sexist/discriminative. If they include it and make it known (which they didn't for the sake of 'look how progressive we are') it's as if they had to, to appease to minorities or something, like some token black guy.
It says more about yourself than Cryptic's writers.
Being PC are like the Borg, seriously.
"Zomg this isn't how I imagined it would be in my head".
Is it good writing, no. Tacked on? Yea. Relevant? No. Groundbreaking, yes.
Move on.
When is the next "earth is in the alpha quadrant"' or "Klingons need a vesta" thread.