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Our Friends the Developers Nerfing DOFFing XP

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  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    At the end of the day the issue everyone is really butting their heads against is the XP requirements for 50 to 60 and Specialization. There is not enough playable Content to keep you from doing massive replay grinding and so we use the Doffs to try and get around the issue.

    But just looking at the Doffs on their own, the system is wonky and does give too much XP. STO is the only game i know where I can log in 3 times a day for 5 minutes to pick Doff missions and get a character to 50 faster then I can do it playing other games for hours per day. Seriously. 15 minutes of me Doffing in STO will get me to 50 quicker then 3 hours of playing SWTOR each day. An MMO should advance via players playing missions, not playing Farmville, IMO.

    The Doff missions XP needs to be decreased so they become a fun secondary way to play, rather then a primary source of XP, and the XP requirements for post 50 need to be radically decreased - or the amount of new playable Content needs to be quadrupled to cut back on replaying grinding.

    There needs to be more to the game then just grinding the same things over and over - especially when the game will put out new Specializations every couple of months. While I do not think Doffing should be the easy way to make up the difference I do not think grinding Argala over and over should be the way to do it either.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    jermbot wrote: »
    On the one hand, the level grind is a way to encourage subscription via the xp bonuses so xp being too available could effect income.
    .

    You mean instituting bonuses?

    I think it would be a fantastic way to generate income from subs.
    I'm currently racing to level a second character to 100 on lotro before the expansion Monday. The difference between vip exp and not makes it a completely different game. Imagine playing always with exp weekend here. How many people would subscribe?
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • voivodjevoivodje Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    One could get in a few days to level 50 and beyond, without DOff missions.
    Other games require even months for the same thing.
    I do not see where the problem seats?
    Even if they removed Exp entirely, there's enough to hyper-level a character as it is.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    mimey2 wrote: »
    iSeriously, is the EP position for the damned game an honorary title?

    Just take a look at the credits for the Fox TV Show 'Bones' - five or six EPs and the credits can take you to a dozen if you count in the Producers as well.

    From Wikipedia - In the video game industry, the title "executive producer" is not well-defined. It may refer to an external producer, from the publisher, who works with the developers."

    One can only imagine here that Geko runs his metrics, sees a tiny spike or valley here or there and then has the EP get the Developers to 'normalize' them.

    Geez, I just got a flash from the TOS Episode 'The Changling'

    Salami (as Nomad): We are instructed. Our purpose is clear. Normalize imperfections. Normalize imperfections. Nomad. Normalize. Normalize. Nomad.'
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • thutmosis85thutmosis85 Member Posts: 2,358 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    voivodje wrote: »
    One could get in a few days to level 50 and beyond, without DOff missions.
    Other games require even months for the same thing.
    I do not see where the problem seats?
    Even if they removed Exp entirely, there's enough to hyper-level a character as it is.

    You basically answered your own question, ignoring everything beyond Level 50 :P
    Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    voivodje wrote: »
    One could get in a few days to level 50 and beyond, without DOff missions.
    Other games require even months for the same thing.
    I do not see where the problem seats?
    Even if they removed Exp entirely, there's enough to hyper-level a character as it is.

    Forget about other games. This is STO.

    STO before all the XP nerfs, Patrol Nerfs, before the great "Tau Dewa Patrol Nerf," before the Cooldowns on Patrols, before Profits Rising, has always been about easy leveling.

    When STO released, people dinged the level cap (Lv40) within the first week back in 2010. A fact that you're not aware of since you weren't there. That pace of leveling held up the same throughout STO's history. Up until all the XP nerfs that started after DR hit late last year, as well as the sharply increased XP requirements for Levels 51-60 and beyond (for further Specializations) that came with DR.

    1-50 leveling has and still is easy. 51 and beyond is a different matter. When people started complaining with the XP/Patrol nerfs piling up on top of the sharper XP requirements for Post Lv51, plenty of people said "You're not DOFFing correctly it will help your leveling so your problem doesn't exist."

    Well, they're nerfing DOFFing. So what now? :rolleyes:
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    You mean instituting bonuses?

    Imagine playing always with exp weekend here. How many people would subscribe?
    The sad part is what we get for exp. weekends now was the normal amount before.;)

    And don't think for one moment, while interesting in its premise of varying Bonuses each week of the Delta Recruit Event, that one of the motivating factors was to NOT do this lead up to an Expansion or Season as before. That was SIX or so weeks of Bonus XP, which now cannot happen, lest the Specialization Points come too quickly.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    At the end of the day the issue everyone is really butting their heads against is the XP requirements for 50 to 60 and Specialization. There is not enough playable Content to keep you from doing massive replay grinding and so we use the Doffs to try and get around the issue.

    But just looking at the Doffs on their own, the system is wonky and does give too much XP. STO is the only game i know where I can log in 3 times a day for 5 minutes to pick Doff missions and get a character to 50 faster then I can do it playing other games for hours per day. Seriously. 15 minutes of me Doffing in STO will get me to 50 quicker then 3 hours of playing SWTOR each day. An MMO should advance via players playing missions, not playing Farmville, IMO.

    The Doff missions XP needs to be decreased so they become a fun secondary way to play, rather then a primary source of XP, and the XP requirements for post 50 need to be radically decreased - or the amount of new playable Content needs to be quadrupled to cut back on replaying grinding.

    There needs to be more to the game then just grinding the same things over and over - especially when the game will put out new Specializations every couple of months. While I do not think Doffing should be the easy way to make up the difference I do not think grinding Argala over and over should be the way to do it either.

    Massive Replay grinding. You mean that I'm not suppose to stand around, or cruiser through space, hitting up red alerts, deep space encounters, all the while bouncing in and out of pve ques and having fun in chat?

    I mean I haven't touched an episode in a while. Haven't completed Solanae nor Delta Quad and I'm a level 60 Delta Recruit. I stopped at Step Between the Stars and the Second set of patrol missions.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • tehbubbalootehbubbaloo Member Posts: 2,003 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    ltminns wrote: »
    Probably not him. Lay this all at the feet of Geko. Until he's gone expect him to intrude on a periodic basis to have them swing the nerf bat.

    After they upped the XP, etc. Point levels for 50-60 they stated that they were going to scale Doffing back up as they did not normalize it enough, as I recall. I don't believe it ever happened.

    i cant really lay it entirely at the feet of geko though. obviously both geko and salami are onboard with all these nerfs. we got our dil event nerfed in salamis first couple of weeks and most were willing to chalk it up something put in motion before he took the reigns. but looking at what has been happening under his watch... yeah, he digs the nerfs.

    i think it would take some sort of metaphoric biblical flood of pwe/cryptic to wash away most of the management in order for things to ever turn around. i strongly suspect they promote the yes-men while the best of them resign to go elsewhere. the peter principal at its best hey
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  • xablisxablis Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    mimey2 wrote: »
    If memory serves, I believe it was Heretic who made the DOFFing system, and it was his pride and joy. He had pretty much total control over it as well, which is why originally DOFFs were all pretty balanced. The moment he left that went out the window.



    Anyways, the only surprise I have about this is that I am surprised it didn't happen sooner. Even if all they claim to be 'normalizing' these DOFFing missions, nothing is stopping them from 'normalizing' all other DOFF missions under the same reason, which would simply mean a nerf overall. I rarely go to the DQ and do those missions anyways, but I feel that they are not going to stop there.

    Even if this is purely Geko's hand in causing all this, I still think some blame must go to Salami for not pulling on Geko's leash. I mean D'stahl kind of did so (though not too much), D'angelo didn't at ALL, and now Salami doesn't seem to be doing that much to stop him either. Seriously, is the EP position for the damned game an honorary title?

    You are correct in that the doff system was Heretic's baby. He actively worked with us during the tribble testing to add more flavor and to fine tune things a great deal based upon our feedback to him. The biggest thing people are forgetting about when it comes to missions like "suppress gorn rebels" is that originally it was set up for a big payout because when the system launched DOFFS OF ALL QUALITIES COULD DIE and so for high risk missions you got a much bigger payout because you could lose any (or all) doffs involved. Think it was only a month or 2 after going live that they changed that so that only common quality doffs could die on missions because of all the crying that followed the loss of a higher quality doff on a "high risk" mission. After Heretic left came the revision of the doff system we saw a year or so back, not to mention the addition of higher payout missions with zero risk involved like the Dyson Sphere space mission to provide shore leave that pays out more than double a suppress gorn rebels mission, with a crit with good doffs giving around 25k xp.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    mimey2 wrote: »
    If memory serves, I believe it was Heretic who made the DOFFing system, and it was his pride and joy. He had pretty much total control over it as well, which is why originally DOFFs were all pretty balanced. The moment he left that went out the window.



    Anyways, the only surprise I have about this is that I am surprised it didn't happen sooner. Even if all they claim to be 'normalizing' these DOFFing missions, nothing is stopping them from 'normalizing' all other DOFF missions under the same reason, which would simply mean a nerf overall. I rarely go to the DQ and do those missions anyways, but I feel that they are not going to stop there.

    Even if this is purely Geko's hand in causing all this, I still think some blame must go to Salami for not pulling on Geko's leash. I mean D'stahl kind of did so (though not too much), D'angelo didn't at ALL, and now Salami doesn't seem to be doing that much to stop him either. Seriously, is the EP position for the damned game an honorary title?
    After hearing the interview, I think Geko wants to do a LOT of work in making doffing more interesting. I got the impression that he has a great disdain for the fact that certain missions give 17x the rewards that certain others do. My guess is that he wants to make it so rewards are more smoothly spread out and time to completion and rarity will likely be the main metrics used to determine output numbers. He made a few specific mentions such as pointing out how certain long, very rare assignments have almost no reward....
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • thutmosis85thutmosis85 Member Posts: 2,358 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    After hearing the interview, I think Geko wants to do a LOT of work in making doffing more interesting.

    Made my day ... hmmm Geko making things "more interesting" ... yeah it's probably JUST ME ... but after Geko's "interesting" Revamps of XP-Gain, Crafting, Patrols, PVE Queues, Exploration etc ... I pretty much "lost interest" in all of them ...
    Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Do these 12 hour missions pay more? Sure. But that's not the point. The game should have something that is awesome, shouldn't it?

    Right now I can think of only 1 place to rock decent experience/time + effort besides doffing. And I'm certainly not going to draw attention to it. I'm sure it will be normalized in time anyway. For may characters with 60 plus spec points at least half of that has been gained via doffing. I figured always that the doffing nerf was coming so best to get while the gettings good.

    In other areas of the game we see that ground battlezone may now be on life support from crashes/bugs and reduced player numbers and nerfs. That was long the most awesome dilithium area aside from contraband.

    So there will remain only contraband awesomeness. The question is when they come for it will it be a 20 hour cooldown or 20 per?
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • welcome2earfwelcome2earf Member Posts: 1,746 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    So much for "Crumpled Dance" etc.

    Well if they are NERFING these, can they also BUFF the long missions that payout for ****?
    T93uSC8.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Made my day ... hmmm Geko making things "more interesting" ... yeah it's probably JUST ME ... but after Geko's "interesting" Revamps of XP-Gain, Crafting, Patrols, PVE Queues, Exploration etc ... I pretty much "lost interest" in all of them ...
    Geko also talked about adding a feature to add rewards to diff missions based on the types of doffs used. Which sounded like a cool idea. IIRC one of his examples was getting 100 dip xp just because you sent a (purple?) diplomat on the mission.
    So much for "Crumpled Dance" etc.

    Well if they are NERFING these, can they also BUFF the long missions that payout for ****?
    Actually... yes, Geko did mention that he wanted to do that as well.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • thutmosis85thutmosis85 Member Posts: 2,358 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Well if they are NERFING these, can they also BUFF the long missions that payout for ****?

    Working as intended ... Cryptic "normalizing" means ... 12h Assigments = ~120XP / 24 Assigments = ~240 XP / 48h = ~480 XP / 72h = ~720 XP etc ... basically ~10 XP per hour ...
    Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
  • amezukiamezuki Member Posts: 364 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I doff like nobody's business, but I don't spend much time in the Delta Quadrant, so I was unaware of the existence of these missions. And despite being unaware of them, I've always felt that doffing was a very rewarding activity that produces a fair amount of experience.

    The existing rewards for these missions seem vastly out of scale with the the rest of the system and clearly imbalanced, so I guess I'm not really seeing the problem with this "nerf". Perhaps I'd feel differently if I'd gotten used to milking them--gravy train's over for some people, I guess.
    Fleet Admiral L'Yern - Screenshot and doffing addict
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  • thutmosis85thutmosis85 Member Posts: 2,358 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    amezuki wrote: »
    I doff like nobody's business, but I don't spend much time in the Delta Quadrant, so I was unaware of the existence of these missions. And despite being unaware of them, I've always felt that doffing was a very rewarding activity that produces a fair amount of experience.

    They're not just in the Delta Quadrant ... "Suppress Gorn Uprising" i.E. is ~3 years old, and has always been this way (mostly in Eta Eridani)

    -> if you're doffing like "nobody's business", you're probably not paying much attention ...
    Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
  • rakija879rakija879 Member Posts: 646 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    At the end of the day the issue everyone is really butting their heads against is the XP requirements for 50 to 60 and Specialization. There is not enough playable Content to keep you from doing massive replay grinding and so we use the Doffs to try and get around the issue.

    But just looking at the Doffs on their own, the system is wonky and does give too much XP. STO is the only game i know where I can log in 3 times a day for 5 minutes to pick Doff missions and get a character to 50 faster then I can do it playing other games for hours per day. Seriously. 15 minutes of me Doffing in STO will get me to 50 quicker then 3 hours of playing SWTOR each day. An MMO should advance via players playing missions, not playing Farmville, IMO.

    The Doff missions XP needs to be decreased so they become a fun secondary way to play, rather then a primary source of XP, and the XP requirements for post 50 need to be radically decreased - or the amount of new playable Content needs to be quadrupled to cut back on replaying grinding.

    There needs to be more to the game then just grinding the same things over and over - especially when the game will put out new Specializations every couple of months. While I do not think Doffing should be the easy way to make up the difference I do not think grinding Argala over and over should be the way to do it either.

    So, if I get it right from your other posts you don't even play this game anymore.
    And if that other game of your gives you so much joy why do you even bother with this one?
    The doff system and the foundry are the only 2 rewarding and fun things left to do.
    So called balance the devs try to implement everywhere will only be harmful to the playbase in the long run, because its essentially always a nerf that we get .
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Yeah the klingons have quite a few of these: bribing various governors and others. I think there's about 6 of them. With all of these there are hidden cooldowns so they don't come up every day. The gorn mission has 3 or 4 varieties. Sometimes I've had it going 3 times at once.

    It's really the same old story. We're done with delta quad and solanae sphere now - so it's time to move the cheese so people move on to the next thing. I mean, otherwise why introduce all these new 12 hour delta missions only to remove them 6 months later?
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • carlosbflycarlosbfly Member Posts: 682 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I'm wondering if we're victims of that hardcore 10% again? The utterly hardcore, DPS Gods who play the game religiously and are therefore advancing through the spec tree's too fast. Its not those players fault of course and not a big deal either. Its a tiny thing and shouldn't dictate what pace most players are working at.

    But that would be Cryptic again going on the tiny minority over the vast majority.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    rakija879 wrote: »
    So, if I get it right from your other posts you don't even play this game anymore.
    And if that other game of your gives you so much joy why do you even bother with this one?
    The doff system and the foundry are the only 2 rewarding and fun things left to do.
    So called balance the devs try to implement everywhere will only be harmful to the playbase in the long run, because its essentially always a nerf that we get .
    Well, you started off with the incorrect assumption, so I guess that tarnishes your entire post. My Delta Recruit is currently level 53 and just starting the Cardassian arc. :)

    Beyond that, yes, I will always be an advocate for people playing more then 1 game. People generally have more then 1 hobby in their lives: they go to movies, golf, bowl, play video games, etc. The notion that people should only do one thing for fun seems quite foolish. Variety is the spice of life.

    Finally, your post ends up sounding like the typical "love it or leave it" tripe we see far too often on this forum - followed closely by "do it my way or else." :)

    If the problem was not the insane amount of XP needed to get from 50 to 60, and Specialization, the Doff XP changes would be virtually meaningless.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • rossrobertsonrossrobertson Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    All of this nerf rage is just a symptom of the underlying problem.
    If PWE keep demanding that STO be more profitable and they want to see an increase in metrics etc, then they need to dispense with a certain dev and stop listening to his half-baked ideas because they are clearly not working. Oh maybe for the short-term they might be but they are hurting STO in the long-term.

    Upper management need to start listening to the playerbase because they clearly aren't. Remember its the players that generate the income that pays your wages. Alienate the players and the game will fail. Its not enough to rely on churn. What happens when STO and cryptics reputation for nerfing and ignoring the players starts to drive new players away?

    There are some great devs and staff at Cryptic, working on STO. Its just a shame that a particular senior dev seems to be sinking the whole ship.

    I wont name names but we all know who I am talking about. Until he leaves STO completely, then things wont improve. Its that simple.
  • xablisxablis Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    A crit on gorn with purple doffs gives about 25k xp.

    Or did for years, before the new EP " salami inferno" made the choice to wreck it.

    Only time I've seen the gorn missions pay out ~24k is during dbl xp events, usually they are around 12k on a crit with all purples across all my toons (and always have been since the acquisition of enough purples to do it properly). The dyson shore leave mission pays out ~50k during a dbl xp event.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I mean, otherwise why introduce all these new 12 hour delta missions only to remove them 6 months later?

    ...The XP is being tweaked (nothing is being removed) so these assignments don't scale massively compared to others. Why introduce any other doffing assignments if there's only one obvious source of XP in the DQ?
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    All of this nerf rage is just a symptom of the underlying problem..

    That 12 hour assignments were rewarding many, many times the Xp that (for example) alternative 4, 40, and 80 hour assignments were, and for no purpose what-so-ever?

    Things can be wrong with the game that don't relate to the morality of a secondary company.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • thutmosis85thutmosis85 Member Posts: 2,358 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Why introduce anything else if there's only one obvious source of XP in the DQ?

    Indeed ... stop Doffing & go back to Argala immediately ...
    Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
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