Wouldn't it be better if they just left the XP alone and made those missions 20h instead? Most are probably not in the game for 12 hours to see the end of the Doff mission anyways.
Even at 20h, they would be outliers. Regardless of whether they want to "nerf" or "normalize" them, this woldn't really do it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Even at 20h, they would be outliers. Regardless of whether they want to "nerf" or "normalize" them, this woldn't really do it.
Huh, I didn't realize how much of an outlier they were. Funny thing I remember Geko saying those are the ones he does too and the ones in the Solonae Dyson Sphere too. One there for about 1,900
Fleet Admiral Thomas Winston James a.k.a. The Grayfox Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
So you think it was always completely intentional that the 12 hour missions would reward much more skill points than comparable missions with longer duration and similar or more stringent requirements?
Does it make sense to you? If you were setting up a Duty Officer assignments, you would naturally say: "Oh yeah, 12 hour missions will grant a particular large amount of skill points, because that makes sense. 20 Hour missions however will reward less, of course, for evident reasons."
I didn't say it was intentional, but ok lets look at some other missions for example Treat for Minor Laceration, its a common 30min mission in the Medical assignments it awards 46 skill points & 5 expertise. So now we move onto Experimental Cannon Upgrades, this is a Rare 8 hour missions and it awards 54 skill points and 8 expertise. Does that seem a unbalanced because it sure does to me. Again look at Create Map of Longitudinal Social Trends in the Klingon Empire, again its a rare mission but only runs for 6 hours except this time it awards 441 skill points and 52 expertise. What cryptic needs to do, is take a step back and say right for every 15mins a mission runs we want it to award x amount of y item, then scale this accordingly based on the rarity of the mission and how often it pops up.
It really looks like cryptic didn't pay to much attention when setting up these missions in the first place. And since the dev that designed the system left, every time they mess with it, they make it that little bit worse. You've only got to look back to summer last year and the issues and complaints they received because they altered the UI and underlying systems. Cryptic in its entirety doesn't look at the big picture. One example being the Alien Artifacts, as I've mentioned in another thread, they remove these items from the drop boxes, because they're obsolete in the new crafting system, yet they fail to remove them from the duty officer missions that drop them.
Wouldn't it be better if they just left the XP alone and made those missions 20h instead? Most are probably not in the game for 12 hours to see the end of the Doff mission anyways.
They could done this. Since I only do a full round and collect the next day. So at least you can still get the points.
Oh well, it will just take me a little longer. To level up now.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Huh, I didn't realize how much of an outlier they were. Funny thing I remember Geko saying those are the ones he does too and the ones in the Solonae Dyson Sphere too. One there for about 1,900
I'll be honest, it's probably my fault that they get nerfed. I recently asked in the DOFF forums why rewards are so all across the board. That must have made someone curious...
Mustrum "So you can blame a former PvPer turned solo PvEer whale" Ridcully
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
In most game this is called Normalizing. It not that they're nerfing the rewards. As they started, they were giving more than intended. They just adjusted them to reward what they're suppose to accoding to the time frame.
Its like when they adjust the reward for patrol missions and such to be normal compared to other mission rewards. So its not a nerf. They're just bringing the reward down to what it's suppose to be.
I do agree on making them more equal via time and rarity. Its kinda odd seeing a 8 hour white having more exp than a 8 hour rare. It does need some adjustments.
In all just have to see how it really effects once I start collecting them, after this fix.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I'll be honest, it's probably my fault that they get nerfed. I recently asked in the DOFF forums why rewards are so all across the board. That must have made someone curious...
Mustrum "So you can blame a former PvPer turned solo PvEer whale" Ridcully
I'm 99.9% sure you're not to blame. I'm sure their metrics show what Doff missions get done the most and they could easily find out why on their own. They knew about this, usually nerfs come at a time when something that will be released would be affected by them.
Don't forget they want us grinding in game playing all the time. With new specialization trees coming they want it to be slow...
Fleet Admiral Thomas Winston James a.k.a. The Grayfox Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
I didn't say it was intentional, but ok lets look at some other missions for example Treat for Minor Laceration, its a common 30min mission in the Medical assignments it awards 46 skill points & 5 expertise. So now we move onto Experimental Cannon Upgrades, this is a Rare 8 hour missions and it awards 54 skill points and 8 expertise. Does that seem a unbalanced because it sure does to me. Again look at Create Map of Longitudinal Social Trends in the Klingon Empire, again its a rare mission but only runs for 6 hours except this time it awards 441 skill points and 52 expertise. What cryptic needs to do, is take a step back and say right for every 15mins a mission runs we want it to award x amount of y item, then scale this accordingly based on the rarity of the mission and how often it pops up.
It really looks like cryptic didn't pay to much attention when setting up these missions in the first place. And since the dev that designed the system left, every time they mess with it, they make it that little bit worse. You've only got to look back to summer last year and the issues and complaints they received because they altered the UI and underlying systems. Cryptic in its entirety doesn't look at the big picture. One example being the Alien Artifacts, as I've mentioned in another thread, they remove these items from the drop boxes, because they're obsolete in the new crafting system, yet they fail to remove them from the duty officer missions that drop them.
I am trying to remember who designed the DOFF system originally. It could be the Dev isn't even in the team anymore, but I could be wrong.
But it seems like it wasn't really actively touched ina while. Sure, they changed the UI, but an UI change doesn't require looking in the underlying game design.
If I was developing something like the DOFF system, I would have tried to make it very standardized, so you could basically have a script generating them or even create them on the fly. Some of that probably has happened. I remember back in the days that they were talking about how longer missions would not reward as much XP per time unit as shorter missions, to reward micro-mangement. So there was probably some kind of calculations involved, but how much of that was automated and how much was that just sanity checks?
I could see something like this:
There is a base reward for a DOFF assignment. Then they add a time based modifier, say, SQRT(t).
Then we have inputs. Each required DOFF adds, say 25 % to the rewards. Each failure/critical failure trait +5 %, each critical / success trait -5 %.
Items add another percentage based on EC cost perhaps.
In addition, you have a "special reward point". For each rarity step, you add +1 reward point. If the DOFFs can be hurt or killed, +1 reward pack. If they are destroyed, add 3 reward point.
THe reward points can be "spend" (by the designer) on:
Bonus skill points. Scale by time and input requirement. 1 Point
Bonus DOFF XP. Scale by time and input requirement. 1 Point
Bonus Dilithium. Scale by time and input requirement. 1 Point
Bonus EC. Scale by time and input requirement. 1 Point
Latinum. Scale by time and input requirement. 1 Point
Temporary Skill Bonus t. 1 Point
Common DOFFs or items, scaled by time and input requirements: 1 Point
Uncommon DOFFs or items (including Contraband), scaled by time and input requirements: 2 Points
Variable (Common to Very Rare) Quality DOFF: 3 Points
Rare or Very Rare Quality DOFF: 4 Points
I'd keep the DOFF grinder assignments from the Academy out of this system, probably. They work as is and are unique enough to warrant it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
It would seem they systematically want to remove everything that allows meaningful XP progression. Thankfully I've almost completed all of my toons, so I can give them the middle finger now, but for people still working on spec points, my deepest condolences.
First, no science-magic murder ship for KDF. Now, nerfage of at least 5 KDF exclusive DOFF missions. I'm beginning to think the "devs hate KDF" posters are not as full of hyperbole as I thought.
This is not a smart move on cryptics part , The payout on the other missions should be brought up to match these missions in scale not more nerfing of XP
The amount of crew on your ship means nothing to your doffing rewards
The type of ship ,means nothing to your xp rewards
The type of character means nothing to your xp rewards
your Doffs could be your ships crew..but means nothing
Too few space Doffs affect your rewards or missions doffing when slotted
If cryptic used that knot on there shoulders they would be doing things like I pointed out to ( improve ) and make the game more fun and offer incintives to aquire more purshable items
NOT keep hammering there player base down
It just shows how out of touch they are with there game and there players
A suit is not a gamer but a suit is in charge of a game..............Makes perfect sense............
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
This was obviously a exploit which the casual greedy players used too much.
The cryptic nerf special forces team saw through your greed and now they are preparing for a surgical strike asap.
Now get back to the delta quadrant and grid Argela!!!:P
New EP seemed like he was getting things back on track, but it looks like he's not.
STO, dashing hopes since forever.
Looking more and more like a wolf in sheeps clothing. I had my hopes up at the start as they honestly seemed to understand the issues that have damaged and driven players away from the game but when one of their actions is to nerf XP gain yet again (knowing this is a key complaint with the game) I think you've got a clear idea of their true colours.
I remain convinced the EP and STO team will ignore any of the game killing issues (those queues are still a carwreck loaded with toxic optionals, poor payouts and no one playing and there is no excuse why this hasn't been fixed by now) and continue to abuse the playes and punish them at every turn with nerfs.
I'm glad I closed my wallet on this game late last year. There is not enough give and take with the players and the key complaints are still being ignored and in this case, actually enhanced further.
Nerfing in typical fashion without properly boosting other missions to compensate for it. This EP is turning out to be the same as as Geko and I can't wait to see what other nerfs they have in store for us.
Nerfing in typical fashion without properly boosting other missions to compensate for it.
If they even bother to explain it, they'll come in with a PR calming promise to boost the other DOFF missions to compensate at some never disclosed date. They'll be no reason given of course for why they won't do both at the same time but will apply the nerf first.
Just a way to sneak in a nerf and never deliver the promised improvement. New EP, same old tricks.
and everyone though salami was going to be so different :rolleyes:
Probably not him. Lay this all at the feet of Geko. Until he's gone expect him to intrude on a periodic basis to have them swing the nerf bat.
After they upped the XP, etc. Point levels for 50-60 they stated that they were going to scale Doffing back up as they did not normalize it enough, as I recall. I don't believe it ever happened.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
More sound and fury over not getting those spec point rat pellets fast enough. Well, I'm sure someone's listening, but I don't think they're hearing what you think you're saying, though.
After they upped the XP, etc. Point levels for 50-60 they stated that they were going to scale Doffing back up as they did not normalize it enough, as I recall. I don't believe it ever happened.
I remember that. Even if it didn't follow through on a positive change for the players (as usual), they could at least have left things as is. I can only assume its the dreaded metrics - were the last lot not god enough? Perhaps they need to find even more aggressive ways to force people to log in and play longer in order to make any kind of remote exp progression.
Ah but it is ... , if someone on the other side got it into their heads to have a system (Specialization Trees) that even the heavy grinders won't be able to complete .
Mean while they sell a few XP Boosts to the obsessive-compulsives , and pat themselves on the back for adding a feature found only in "hard core MMO's" .
... no more kiddie time with finishing all the Rep's on your Alt's , STO's now hard core yo ...
you know, one of the things that attracted me to this game is that it had a low key dollhouse style experience,
it doesn't have enough content or enough to do to be obsess-inducing
I don't care how slow they make the xp, I have zero interest in purchasing boosts
I am trying to remember who designed the DOFF system originally. It could be the Dev isn't even in the team anymore, but I could be wrong.
If memory serves, I believe it was Heretic who made the DOFFing system, and it was his pride and joy. He had pretty much total control over it as well, which is why originally DOFFs were all pretty balanced. The moment he left that went out the window.
Anyways, the only surprise I have about this is that I am surprised it didn't happen sooner. Even if all they claim to be 'normalizing' these DOFFing missions, nothing is stopping them from 'normalizing' all other DOFF missions under the same reason, which would simply mean a nerf overall. I rarely go to the DQ and do those missions anyways, but I feel that they are not going to stop there.
Even if this is purely Geko's hand in causing all this, I still think some blame must go to Salami for not pulling on Geko's leash. I mean D'stahl kind of did so (though not too much), D'angelo didn't at ALL, and now Salami doesn't seem to be doing that much to stop him either. Seriously, is the EP position for the damned game an honorary title?
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
On the one hand, the level grind is a way to encourage subscription via the xp bonuses so xp being too available could effect income.
However, since turning STO into a korean content grinder is a way for them to pursue income that I'd much rather they avoid I'll just point out this. Issues of scale can be resolved two ways and another way to look at this is that doff missions that fall outside of the 12 to 15.9 hour range reward too little xp.
Comments
Even at 20h, they would be outliers. Regardless of whether they want to "nerf" or "normalize" them, this woldn't really do it.
Huh, I didn't realize how much of an outlier they were. Funny thing I remember Geko saying those are the ones he does too and the ones in the Solonae Dyson Sphere too. One there for about 1,900
Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians
U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
Game Handle: Grayfox@GrayfoxJames
Website: https://www.libertytaskforce.com
Armada (STOFA Member Fleet): https://www.libertytaskforce.com/stofa
Discord: https://discord.gg/bGp9N7z
Twitter: STOFA@LTFGrayfox
Email: CSDynamix@Hotmail.com
I didn't say it was intentional, but ok lets look at some other missions for example Treat for Minor Laceration, its a common 30min mission in the Medical assignments it awards 46 skill points & 5 expertise. So now we move onto Experimental Cannon Upgrades, this is a Rare 8 hour missions and it awards 54 skill points and 8 expertise. Does that seem a unbalanced because it sure does to me. Again look at Create Map of Longitudinal Social Trends in the Klingon Empire, again its a rare mission but only runs for 6 hours except this time it awards 441 skill points and 52 expertise. What cryptic needs to do, is take a step back and say right for every 15mins a mission runs we want it to award x amount of y item, then scale this accordingly based on the rarity of the mission and how often it pops up.
It really looks like cryptic didn't pay to much attention when setting up these missions in the first place. And since the dev that designed the system left, every time they mess with it, they make it that little bit worse. You've only got to look back to summer last year and the issues and complaints they received because they altered the UI and underlying systems. Cryptic in its entirety doesn't look at the big picture. One example being the Alien Artifacts, as I've mentioned in another thread, they remove these items from the drop boxes, because they're obsolete in the new crafting system, yet they fail to remove them from the duty officer missions that drop them.
They could done this. Since I only do a full round and collect the next day. So at least you can still get the points.
Oh well, it will just take me a little longer. To level up now.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I'll be honest, it's probably my fault that they get nerfed. I recently asked in the DOFF forums why rewards are so all across the board. That must have made someone curious...
Mustrum "So you can blame a former PvPer turned solo PvEer whale" Ridcully
Its like when they adjust the reward for patrol missions and such to be normal compared to other mission rewards. So its not a nerf. They're just bringing the reward down to what it's suppose to be.
In all just have to see how it really effects once I start collecting them, after this fix.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I'm 99.9% sure you're not to blame. I'm sure their metrics show what Doff missions get done the most and they could easily find out why on their own. They knew about this, usually nerfs come at a time when something that will be released would be affected by them.
Don't forget they want us grinding in game playing all the time. With new specialization trees coming they want it to be slow...
Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians
U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
Game Handle: Grayfox@GrayfoxJames
Website: https://www.libertytaskforce.com
Armada (STOFA Member Fleet): https://www.libertytaskforce.com/stofa
Discord: https://discord.gg/bGp9N7z
Twitter: STOFA@LTFGrayfox
Email: CSDynamix@Hotmail.com
I am trying to remember who designed the DOFF system originally. It could be the Dev isn't even in the team anymore, but I could be wrong.
But it seems like it wasn't really actively touched ina while. Sure, they changed the UI, but an UI change doesn't require looking in the underlying game design.
If I was developing something like the DOFF system, I would have tried to make it very standardized, so you could basically have a script generating them or even create them on the fly. Some of that probably has happened. I remember back in the days that they were talking about how longer missions would not reward as much XP per time unit as shorter missions, to reward micro-mangement. So there was probably some kind of calculations involved, but how much of that was automated and how much was that just sanity checks?
I could see something like this:
There is a base reward for a DOFF assignment. Then they add a time based modifier, say, SQRT(t).
Then we have inputs. Each required DOFF adds, say 25 % to the rewards. Each failure/critical failure trait +5 %, each critical / success trait -5 %.
Items add another percentage based on EC cost perhaps.
In addition, you have a "special reward point". For each rarity step, you add +1 reward point. If the DOFFs can be hurt or killed, +1 reward pack. If they are destroyed, add 3 reward point.
THe reward points can be "spend" (by the designer) on:
I'd keep the DOFF grinder assignments from the Academy out of this system, probably. They work as is and are unique enough to warrant it.
And in a way, since doffing was the last thing I did in STO regularly (now that PVP is dead) it also removes the need to keep playing.
First, no science-magic murder ship for KDF. Now, nerfage of at least 5 KDF exclusive DOFF missions. I'm beginning to think the "devs hate KDF" posters are not as full of hyperbole as I thought.
STOP nerfing stuff and get back to work!
The amount of crew on your ship means nothing to your doffing rewards
The type of ship ,means nothing to your xp rewards
The type of character means nothing to your xp rewards
your Doffs could be your ships crew..but means nothing
Too few space Doffs affect your rewards or missions doffing when slotted
If cryptic used that knot on there shoulders they would be doing things like I pointed out to ( improve ) and make the game more fun and offer incintives to aquire more purshable items
NOT keep hammering there player base down
It just shows how out of touch they are with there game and there players
A suit is not a gamer but a suit is in charge of a game..............Makes perfect sense............
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The cryptic nerf special forces team saw through your greed and now they are preparing for a surgical strike asap.
Now get back to the delta quadrant and grid Argela!!!:P
Looking more and more like a wolf in sheeps clothing. I had my hopes up at the start as they honestly seemed to understand the issues that have damaged and driven players away from the game but when one of their actions is to nerf XP gain yet again (knowing this is a key complaint with the game) I think you've got a clear idea of their true colours.
I remain convinced the EP and STO team will ignore any of the game killing issues (those queues are still a carwreck loaded with toxic optionals, poor payouts and no one playing and there is no excuse why this hasn't been fixed by now) and continue to abuse the playes and punish them at every turn with nerfs.
I'm glad I closed my wallet on this game late last year. There is not enough give and take with the players and the key complaints are still being ignored and in this case, actually enhanced further.
If they even bother to explain it, they'll come in with a PR calming promise to boost the other DOFF missions to compensate at some never disclosed date. They'll be no reason given of course for why they won't do both at the same time but will apply the nerf first.
Just a way to sneak in a nerf and never deliver the promised improvement. New EP, same old tricks.
Cryptic's motto
Probably not him. Lay this all at the feet of Geko. Until he's gone expect him to intrude on a periodic basis to have them swing the nerf bat.
After they upped the XP, etc. Point levels for 50-60 they stated that they were going to scale Doffing back up as they did not normalize it enough, as I recall. I don't believe it ever happened.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I remember that. Even if it didn't follow through on a positive change for the players (as usual), they could at least have left things as is. I can only assume its the dreaded metrics - were the last lot not god enough? Perhaps they need to find even more aggressive ways to force people to log in and play longer in order to make any kind of remote exp progression.
harsh, but this fella has a point
you guys (cryptic) need better priorities
:rolleyes:
sig
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5451/om71.jpg
It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
you know, one of the things that attracted me to this game is that it had a low key dollhouse style experience,
it doesn't have enough content or enough to do to be obsess-inducing
I don't care how slow they make the xp, I have zero interest in purchasing boosts
If memory serves, I believe it was Heretic who made the DOFFing system, and it was his pride and joy. He had pretty much total control over it as well, which is why originally DOFFs were all pretty balanced. The moment he left that went out the window.
Anyways, the only surprise I have about this is that I am surprised it didn't happen sooner. Even if all they claim to be 'normalizing' these DOFFing missions, nothing is stopping them from 'normalizing' all other DOFF missions under the same reason, which would simply mean a nerf overall. I rarely go to the DQ and do those missions anyways, but I feel that they are not going to stop there.
Even if this is purely Geko's hand in causing all this, I still think some blame must go to Salami for not pulling on Geko's leash. I mean D'stahl kind of did so (though not too much), D'angelo didn't at ALL, and now Salami doesn't seem to be doing that much to stop him either. Seriously, is the EP position for the damned game an honorary title?
However, since turning STO into a korean content grinder is a way for them to pursue income that I'd much rather they avoid I'll just point out this. Issues of scale can be resolved two ways and another way to look at this is that doff missions that fall outside of the 12 to 15.9 hour range reward too little xp.