It probably doesn't count, but I've recreated that fight in Bridge Commander dozens of times. Me in a Galaxy, angled away from the BOP - no power to shields and shields down. Let them get the first hit - and I've always managed to pull off a win. A Galaxy just has too much firepower to be downed by a BOP - especially one that isn't hit and running, taking advantage of it's cloak.
I take damage, sure - but never enough to take the Galaxy Class out. Never enough for more then a month in a space dock.
"Probably doesn't count" is meaningless. The simple fact of the matter is this:
2 of the 3 "USS Enterprise" ships in canon that were lost in or as a result of combat, have been led to their destruction by a Klingon Bird of Prey.
It doesn't matter if you destroy your enemy with a straight up, standing fight. It doesn't matter if you destroy the enemy by wearing them down and breaking their will to continue the fight and retreating. It doesn't matter if you brought your enemy to destruction with guile and subterfuge.
What matters is that 2 of the 3 Enterprises in Star Trek canon were led to their destruction by a Klingon Bird of Prey.
Doesn't matter if you like it or not. Doesn't matter if the tech manuals say, that, according to specs, it should never happen.
Because in war and conflict, lots of things can happen and not all things are certain.
Even in real life, some of the most powerful warships in history have been laid low by things of much smaller classes, displacements, far cheaper in cost to manufacture.
"Probably doesn't count" is meaningless. The simple fact of the matter is this:
2 of the 3 "USS Enterprise" ships in canon that were lost in or as a result of combat, have been led to their destruction by a Klingon Bird of Prey.
Doesn't matter if you like it or not. Doesn't matter if the tech manuals say, that, according to specs, it should never happen.
Because in war and conflict, lots of things can happen and not all things are certain.
Even in real life, some of the most powerful warships in history have been laid low by things of much smaller classes, displacements, far cheaper in cost to manufacture.
If the Enterprise-D had opened up with everything they had on the UNCLOAKED Bird of Prey - it would have gone down in a ball of flame in about four seconds. They barely even tried to fight - it was poor writing plain and simple.
Other Galaxy class ships - even the Enterprise herself - have taken damage the Duras Sister's gave out without flenching.
I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm not saying BoP's are a bad ship. I am saying that an uncloaked Bird of Prey has no right winning a stand up fight against a superior ship. The only reason a Bird of Prey was used was for budget reasons, and it's explosion is the same footage as the BoP blowing up in Trek 6.
laforge said it must have been that last torpedo, referring to the core failure, and the only 2 we saw fired were in the opening shots. they did impact as close to the core as physically possible, so there is that. the rest of the damage it caused was fairly inconsequential, minor hull breaches, doubtful there was any internal system damage of note, no casualties.
the biggest problem in that fight though, is that a GCS has the firepower to obliterate a bop in under 5 seconds, regardless if its shields were set double front, and it was MASSIVELY improved upon over typical.
if just those first torps are what eventually led to the ship's destruction, then they could have just obliterated the bop right after, and then played through the omg core breach part, skipping the "battle", were riker and worf are too UTTERLY incompetent to just blow the thing away without some contrived nonsense plan.
basically any time the enterprise jobed during tng, and didn't put up as much of a fight as they did here, i consider a plot hole. its a true shame that the writers couldn't tell a story without making the gigantic, without peer, GCS enterprise, the underdog of almost every single opportunity. i bet they loved voyager, because that ship actually WAS in the position of being an underdog, they didn't have to write around the fact that the leed ship was in a tier of its own.
oh and that battle with the odyssey, quite a bit of it happened off screen, it got pounded on for like 10 minutes. the standard armor on a galaxy class was simply too strong for such light guns to penetrate it. those bugs pretty much never could have destroyed it conventionally, its more likely that their own shields, tuned to be basically phaser immune, would have failed before the odyssey took significant enough hull damage that it couldn't fight back anymore. even the ram appeared to be just barely enough to trigger the core to breach, or an antimater pod to fail, or something similar.
I don't mind that the Enterprise D was destroyed - I just wish it wasn't an incompetent death due to filming budget.
If the Duras sisters had done an amazing dance of firepower and skill, or if they used a new enhanced weapon. Hell, even if they rammed the BoP into the neck assembly as a final 'You suck Starfleet!'.
If the Enterprise-D had opened up with everything they had on the UNCLOAKED Bird of Prey - it would have gone down in a ball of flame in about four seconds. They barely even tried to fight - it was poor writing plain and simple.
Other Galaxy class ships - even the Enterprise herself - have taken damage the Duras Sister's gave out without flenching.
I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm not saying BoP's are a bad ship. I am saying that an uncloaked Bird of Prey has no right winning a stand up fight against a superior ship. The only reason a Bird of Prey was used was for budget reasons, and it's explosion is the same footage as the BoP blowing up in Trek 6.
Did you know that in actual war, a Battleship has been sunk by a mere submarine with less than 100 man crew? Did you know that before Jet Age Carriers, the largest carrier ever built by any nation was sunk by a single submarine firing less than a handful of torpedoes despite the presence of several escorting Destroyers, who's job was to be on guard against submarines? Did you know the largest, mightiest Battleship that was ever made by any nation was sunk by lots of cheap little aircraft? Did you know, that in the Pacific War of WWII, that American Submarines were ordered to make it a point to attack Japanese DESTROYERS (the very things designed to sink Subs) whenever possible?*
And again: Whether you liked it or not, 2 of the 3 Enterprises lost during or as a result of combat, was done in by a Klingon Bird of Prey.
Not a fan-fic. Not a STO mission. Not a fan-made mission for a game.
But onscreen canon.
Whether you liked it or not.
However Klingons not being so bright
could have just beamed a torpedo on the warp core/ main computer/ or the bridge and insta killed the D
I like the on screen canon of a Neg'Var and 2 vorcha's being whipped like red headed step children by the Galaxy X in a stand up fight
They should have had a bird of prey to escort them :P
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
a stock footage BoP taken right out of ST6 no less
DS9, for as good as it was, stole a number of footage from the Krik-era movies. I felt that considering how good the show was and all the ships they were showing off, all the 'splosions, it was a very cheap, highly noticeable move. Most esp knowing how hardcore Star Trek fans can be
Almost all of DS9's space/combat sequence's near the tail end of season 7 are recycled from favor the bold/sacrifice of angels/other seasons and other pieces of trek. Did they run out of money with 5 episodes to go or something?
Did you know that in actual war, a Battleship has been sunk by a mere submarine with less than 100 man crew? Did you know that before Jet Age Carriers, the largest carrier ever built by any nation was sunk by a single submarine firing less than a handful of torpedoes despite the presence of several escorting Destroyers, who's job was to be on guard against submarines? Did you know the largest, mightiest Battleship that was ever made by any nation was sunk by lots of cheap little aircraft? Did you know, that in the Pacific War of WWII, that American Submarines were ordered to make it a point to attack Japanese DESTROYERS (the very things designed to sink Subs) whenever possible?*
*Lots of reasons in that, BTW.
That's like apples and oranges.
WWII tactics don't apply here. There where no shields then. Subs could dive away, WWII fighters used air superority, but in Trek all action takes place on one "level" to say so.
But even if we accept the WWII comparison, then the submarine wasn't even under water. No it was in plain sight of the Battleship. NO commander (besides Riker) would be so incompetent not to open fire to save the own ship and crew.
The movies plot was just aimed to get rid of the -D nothing else.
The BOP didn't even surprise the Enterprise, they simply cheated so they could shoot through the Enterprises shields. IF the -D crew they would have halfway tried to fight back the BOP wouldn't have stand a chance.
In-universe the loss of the Ent-D was because of total and utter incompetence its bridge crew and first and foremost Cmdr. Riker and to a certain extend Capt. Picard (for leaving the ship in the first place).
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
That's like apples and oranges.
WWII tactics don't apply here. There where no shields then. Subs could dive away, WWII fighters used air superority, but in Trek all action takes place on one "level" to say so.
But even if we accept the WWII comparison, then the submarine wasn't even under water. No it was in plain sight of the Battleship. NO commander (besides Riker) would be so incompetent not to open fire to save the own ship and crew.
The movies plot was just aimed to get rid of the -D nothing else.
The BOP didn't even surprise the Enterprise, they simply cheated so they could shoot through the Enterprises shields. IF the -D crew they would have halfway tried to fight back the BOP wouldn't have stand a chance.
In-universe the loss of the Ent-D was because of total and utter incompetence its bridge crew and first and foremost Cmdr. Riker and to a certain extend Capt. Picard (for leaving the ship in the first place).
Don't forget that they didn't really want to or couldn't shoot new scenes, so they probably didn't even have material depicting a Galaxy firing at a BoP
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Don't forget that they didn't really want to or couldn't shoot new scenes, so they probably didn't even have material depicting a Galaxy firing at a BoP
Yeah money always beats canon or even common sense. lol. :D:D
On the other hand, the "landing" of the saucer on Veridian III wasn't for free either. I think B&B just wanted to get rid of that ship which stood for a different kind of Trek like they envisioned for themselves.
Don't get me wrong i like action scenes and space battles maybe more than some other ppl here on the forum, but creating a new ship just for the sake of putting a rediculus amount of guns on it is just laughably. For me it shows that they lack a certain respect or understanding for the IP they inherited.
If they wanted Trek become a bit more edgy they could have refited the -D and updated the design of it (similar like it was made in TMP). But to "kill" her was a too hard cut from TNG imo.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Almost all of DS9's space/combat sequence's near the tail end of season 7 are recycled from favor the bold/sacrifice of angels/other seasons and other pieces of trek. Did they run out of money with 5 episodes to go or something?
that's not to far off. the production of DS9 is whole drama of it;s self. it's amazing the show ever finished and was as good as it was
laforge said it must have been that last torpedo, referring to the core failure, and the only 2 we saw fired were in the opening shots. they did impact as close to the core as physically possible, so there is that. the rest of the damage it caused was fairly inconsequential, minor hull breaches, doubtful there was any internal system damage of note, no casualties.
the biggest problem in that fight though, is that a GCS has the firepower to obliterate a bop in under 5 seconds, regardless if its shields were set double front, and it was MASSIVELY improved upon over typical.
I think it could've been easily resolved if they had said that not only did they have the ship's shield frequencies, but her weapons frequencies as well. With those, you get Borg style perfect shields.
if just those first torps are what eventually led to the ship's destruction, then they could have just obliterated the bop right after, and then played through the omg core breach part, skipping the "battle", were riker and worf are too UTTERLY incompetent to just blow the thing away without some contrived nonsense plan.
basically any time the enterprise jobed during tng, and didn't put up as much of a fight as they did here, i consider a plot hole. its a true shame that the writers couldn't tell a story without making the gigantic, without peer, GCS enterprise, the underdog of almost every single opportunity. i bet they loved voyager, because that ship actually WAS in the position of being an underdog, they didn't have to write around the fact that the leed ship was in a tier of its own.
Wasn't Voyager pretty much under different leadership though?
oh and that battle with the odyssey, quite a bit of it happened off screen, it got pounded on for like 10 minutes. the standard armor on a galaxy class was simply too strong for such light guns to penetrate it. those bugs pretty much never could have destroyed it conventionally, its more likely that their own shields, tuned to be basically phaser immune, would have failed before the odyssey took significant enough hull damage that it couldn't fight back anymore. even the ram appeared to be just barely enough to trigger the core to breach, or an antimater pod to fail, or something similar.
It's one of those cases where the external damage doesn't show it all. All you need is one I-beam to keep going through the decks and punch through the core stack or a PTC and boom. Look at everything that was destroyed, the Navigational Deflector, one of the highest power parts of the ship, the forward torpedo launcher and any loaded torpedoes, the starboard nacelle. The instant plasma fire would've rampaged through Deck 36 in seconds, the kinetic shock alone might've just shook the core. That is how you get rid of a Galaxy.
DS9, for as good as it was, stole a number of footage from the Krik-era movies. I felt that considering how good the show was and all the ships they were showing off, all the 'splosions, it was a very cheap, highly noticeable move. Most esp knowing how hardcore Star Trek fans can be
Not that much, remember completely different generation of ships.
He was referring to how the Duras sisters died in the explosion of Chang's Bird of Prey.
That said DS9 recycled the hell out of its own footage.
Generations pretty much had to split its budget and production staff with All Good Things.
Yeah money always beats canon or even common sense. lol. :D:D
On the other hand, the "landing" of the saucer on Veridian III wasn't for free either. I think B&B just wanted to get rid of that ship which stood for a different kind of Trek like they envisioned for themselves.
Don't get me wrong i like action scenes and space battles maybe more than some other ppl here on the forum, but creating a new ship just for the sake of putting a rediculus amount of guns on it is just laughably. For me it shows that they lack a certain respect or understanding for the IP they inherited.
If they wanted Trek become a bit more edgy they could have refited the -D and updated the design of it (similar like it was made in TMP). But to "kill" her was a too hard cut from TNG imo.
That's not it at all. They wanted both a model that was easier to work with as the Galaxy as beautiful as she was, was notoriously a ***** to shoot, and they needed something that was higher quality to stand up on the big screen.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
That's not it at all. They wanted both a model that was easier to work with as the Galaxy as beautiful as she was, was notoriously a ***** to shoot, and they needed something that was higher quality to stand up on the big screen.
And so they had to made a 180 degrees turn in ship design, just to pass on a digital model anyway?
Unlikely imo.
Don't get me wrong here, but i have read the same argument about the constitution class model and how happy the producers where when they blew it up in ST:III, only to use it again in the following movies, lol.
Sure we can't really estimate if the GCS model was difficult to shoot or not, but i don't buy it as only reason to radically change the ship design of the enterprise.
They surely could have created a design more related to the GCS instead of creating a almost retro looking ship. Again, don't get me wrong the sov has its fans but i can't really see a lineage from Ambassador to Galaxy to Sovereign (from a movie production point of view).
The Sov design is just too different and frankly too kirk-ish looking imo.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
And so they had to made a 180 degrees turn in ship design, just to pass on a digital model anyway?
Unlikely imo.
Don't get me wrong here, but i have read the same argument about the constitution class model and how happy the producers where when they blew it up in ST:III, only to use it again in the following movies, lol.
Sure we can't really estimate if the GCS model was difficult to shoot or not, but i don't buy it as only reason to radically change the ship design of the enterprise.
They surely could have created a design more related to the GCS instead of creating a almost retro looking ship. Again, don't get me wrong the sov has its fans but i can't really see a lineage from Ambassador to Galaxy to Sovereign (from a movie production point of view).
The Sov design is just too different and frankly too kirk-ish looking imo.
They planned on using the Sovereign model for more movies, but decided to make the transition to complete CGI while doing Insurrection. The model was started before First Contact while they still planned on using studio models for ships.
The people working with the model said it was difficult to shoot because it weighed to much. It's part of why they made a smaller model they used for most of TNG. The problem is that the 4 foot model was not detailed enough for cinema so they had to use the 6.
nope the sov model did not even get started until the end of generations filming as the earliest first contact scrips (still called resurrection) had the E being a galaxy class. also early MSDs on the bridge of the E had a galaxy they had to reshoot some footage after it was decided to use a new ship all together
the miniture shooting did not even start on first contact until about a month into filming
nope the sov model did not even get started until the end of generations filming as the earliest first contact scrips (still called resurrection) had the E being a galaxy class. also early MSDs on the bridge of the E had a galaxy they had to reshoot some footage after it was decided to use a new ship all together
the miniture shooting did not even start on first contact until about a month into filming
Other than the Generations part, that pretty much agrees with what I said. I mis-read something in the articles above.
nope the sov model did not even get started until the end of generations filming as the earliest first contact scrips (still called resurrection) had the E being a galaxy class. also early MSDs on the bridge of the E had a galaxy they had to reshoot some footage after it was decided to use a new ship all together
the miniture shooting did not even start on first contact until about a month into filming
Yeah, i remember seeing an image of a Galaxy Class model in a box half opened featuring U.S.S. Enterprise -E on its saucer.
So the decision to use a totally different ship was made while to movie was being shot?
The more i think about it the stranger it seems.
Just thinking loud now, what scene was so hard to film that wasn't already being made on TV (of course with less detail) with the Galaxy Model?
The flyby in front of the Defiant? Doesn't seem too complicated tbh.
They even used a nebula class model in the battlescene.
I mean they do not actually move the model, they move the camera around it, while the model stands still.
And why did the new ship had to look so radical different with almost no connection to the previous one? (if you didn't know better, one could think both ships wheren't even from the same century imo)
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
it was decision form paramount to have a "flashy new hot rod" as the enterpise it had nothing to do with how easy or hard the model was to deal with. also braga hated the galaxy class and said if he had to use it again he would destroy it in the first 5 minutes of the movie just to not use it for the remainder
ironicly he is the one that gave us the challenger (a galaxy) and the final episode of enterpise which was basicly an episode of TNG and took place on the D and had some great exterior shots
And why did the new ship had to look so radical different with almost no connection to the previous one?
Thats exactly what some of us said, after 20 years of Connie's, Miranda's, and Excel's when TNG first presented the Galaxy. Even taking into account the 80 years gap, the Galaxy is a pretty radical change itself.
it was decision form paramount to have a "flashy new hot rod" as the enterpise it had nothing to do with how easy or hard the model was to deal with. also braga hated the galaxy class and said if he had to use it again he would destroy it in the first 5 minutes of the movie just to not use it for the remainder
ironicly he is the one that gave us the challenger (a galaxy) and the final episode of enterpise which was basicly an episode of TNG and took place on the D and had some great exterior shots
i already strongly disliked braga, but he was also a literal galaxy hatter? thats irredeemable.
Got to admit the lack of the andromeda parts on the Gal-X is getting alittle anoying, as i like alot of those part's looks quite abit, and wish to use those on my Gal-X when i use it. I understand that they need to update it for usage on the Gal-x ship like the neck design an tri-pylon design of it. I am hoping the reason they are waiting to update it is that they are going to make a T-6 version.
Thats exactly what some of us said, after 20 years of Connie's, Miranda's, and Excel's when TNG first presented the Galaxy. Even taking into account the 80 years gap, the Galaxy is a pretty radical change itself.
True but:
1. it's almost 80 years between Excelsior and Galaxy. *
2. The Galaxy looks much more futuristic/advanced, while the Sovereign looks like it where more from kirks era or at least a step backwards from the fluid GCS design.
*Don't get me wrong if they had designed the -D similar like the Sovereign in the first place, the Galaxy could easily have been a ship from the 26th century.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Comments
"Probably doesn't count" is meaningless. The simple fact of the matter is this:
2 of the 3 "USS Enterprise" ships in canon that were lost in or as a result of combat, have been led to their destruction by a Klingon Bird of Prey.
It doesn't matter if you destroy your enemy with a straight up, standing fight. It doesn't matter if you destroy the enemy by wearing them down and breaking their will to continue the fight and retreating. It doesn't matter if you brought your enemy to destruction with guile and subterfuge.
What matters is that 2 of the 3 Enterprises in Star Trek canon were led to their destruction by a Klingon Bird of Prey.
Doesn't matter if you like it or not. Doesn't matter if the tech manuals say, that, according to specs, it should never happen.
Because in war and conflict, lots of things can happen and not all things are certain.
Even in real life, some of the most powerful warships in history have been laid low by things of much smaller classes, displacements, far cheaper in cost to manufacture.
If the Enterprise-D had opened up with everything they had on the UNCLOAKED Bird of Prey - it would have gone down in a ball of flame in about four seconds. They barely even tried to fight - it was poor writing plain and simple.
Other Galaxy class ships - even the Enterprise herself - have taken damage the Duras Sister's gave out without flenching.
I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm not saying BoP's are a bad ship. I am saying that an uncloaked Bird of Prey has no right winning a stand up fight against a superior ship. The only reason a Bird of Prey was used was for budget reasons, and it's explosion is the same footage as the BoP blowing up in Trek 6.
the biggest problem in that fight though, is that a GCS has the firepower to obliterate a bop in under 5 seconds, regardless if its shields were set double front, and it was MASSIVELY improved upon over typical.
if just those first torps are what eventually led to the ship's destruction, then they could have just obliterated the bop right after, and then played through the omg core breach part, skipping the "battle", were riker and worf are too UTTERLY incompetent to just blow the thing away without some contrived nonsense plan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=H_XbWq49vUM
basically any time the enterprise jobed during tng, and didn't put up as much of a fight as they did here, i consider a plot hole. its a true shame that the writers couldn't tell a story without making the gigantic, without peer, GCS enterprise, the underdog of almost every single opportunity. i bet they loved voyager, because that ship actually WAS in the position of being an underdog, they didn't have to write around the fact that the leed ship was in a tier of its own.
oh and that battle with the odyssey, quite a bit of it happened off screen, it got pounded on for like 10 minutes. the standard armor on a galaxy class was simply too strong for such light guns to penetrate it. those bugs pretty much never could have destroyed it conventionally, its more likely that their own shields, tuned to be basically phaser immune, would have failed before the odyssey took significant enough hull damage that it couldn't fight back anymore. even the ram appeared to be just barely enough to trigger the core to breach, or an antimater pod to fail, or something similar.
If the Duras sisters had done an amazing dance of firepower and skill, or if they used a new enhanced weapon. Hell, even if they rammed the BoP into the neck assembly as a final 'You suck Starfleet!'.
It was just so... cheap.
If's, And's, But's, Would've, Should've, Could've.
Did you know that in actual war, a Battleship has been sunk by a mere submarine with less than 100 man crew? Did you know that before Jet Age Carriers, the largest carrier ever built by any nation was sunk by a single submarine firing less than a handful of torpedoes despite the presence of several escorting Destroyers, who's job was to be on guard against submarines? Did you know the largest, mightiest Battleship that was ever made by any nation was sunk by lots of cheap little aircraft? Did you know, that in the Pacific War of WWII, that American Submarines were ordered to make it a point to attack Japanese DESTROYERS (the very things designed to sink Subs) whenever possible?*
*Lots of reasons in that, BTW.
The Plot
And a Bird of Prey :cool:
And again: Whether you liked it or not, 2 of the 3 Enterprises lost during or as a result of combat, was done in by a Klingon Bird of Prey.
Not a fan-fic. Not a STO mission. Not a fan-made mission for a game.
But onscreen canon.
Whether you liked it or not.
However Klingons not being so bright
could have just beamed a torpedo on the warp core/ main computer/ or the bridge and insta killed the D
I like the on screen canon of a Neg'Var and 2 vorcha's being whipped like red headed step children by the Galaxy X in a stand up fight
They should have had a bird of prey to escort them :P
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
If you're referring to All Good Things, that was two Negh'Var's.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
a stock footage BoP taken right out of ST6 no less
DS9, for as good as it was, stole a number of footage from the Krik-era movies. I felt that considering how good the show was and all the ships they were showing off, all the 'splosions, it was a very cheap, highly noticeable move. Most esp knowing how hardcore Star Trek fans can be
WWII tactics don't apply here. There where no shields then. Subs could dive away, WWII fighters used air superority, but in Trek all action takes place on one "level" to say so.
But even if we accept the WWII comparison, then the submarine wasn't even under water. No it was in plain sight of the Battleship. NO commander (besides Riker) would be so incompetent not to open fire to save the own ship and crew.
The movies plot was just aimed to get rid of the -D nothing else.
The BOP didn't even surprise the Enterprise, they simply cheated so they could shoot through the Enterprises shields. IF the -D crew they would have halfway tried to fight back the BOP wouldn't have stand a chance.
In-universe the loss of the Ent-D was because of total and utter incompetence its bridge crew and first and foremost Cmdr. Riker and to a certain extend Capt. Picard (for leaving the ship in the first place).
Don't forget that they didn't really want to or couldn't shoot new scenes, so they probably didn't even have material depicting a Galaxy firing at a BoP
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Yeah money always beats canon or even common sense. lol.
On the other hand, the "landing" of the saucer on Veridian III wasn't for free either. I think B&B just wanted to get rid of that ship which stood for a different kind of Trek like they envisioned for themselves.
Don't get me wrong i like action scenes and space battles maybe more than some other ppl here on the forum, but creating a new ship just for the sake of putting a rediculus amount of guns on it is just laughably. For me it shows that they lack a certain respect or understanding for the IP they inherited.
If they wanted Trek become a bit more edgy they could have refited the -D and updated the design of it (similar like it was made in TMP). But to "kill" her was a too hard cut from TNG imo.
USS Arizona in Spacedock
Orbiting Earth - Bit of a class TNG flyboy shot.
Orbiting Andoria
that's not to far off. the production of DS9 is whole drama of it;s self. it's amazing the show ever finished and was as good as it was
Wasn't Voyager pretty much under different leadership though?
I think you're wrong on that last point. The ram basically slammed right into the core. It doesn't take that much, it destroyed the entire port bow of the lower Stardrive. It's a testament to how tough the Galaxy is that it didn't fly right through but it got close enough.
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/0/04/USS_Odyssey_critically_damaged.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080425234715&path-prefix=en
It's one of those cases where the external damage doesn't show it all. All you need is one I-beam to keep going through the decks and punch through the core stack or a PTC and boom. Look at everything that was destroyed, the Navigational Deflector, one of the highest power parts of the ship, the forward torpedo launcher and any loaded torpedoes, the starboard nacelle. The instant plasma fire would've rampaged through Deck 36 in seconds, the kinetic shock alone might've just shook the core. That is how you get rid of a Galaxy.
That's true. It would take Janeway to make the transporter torpedo a thing.
Not that much, remember completely different generation of ships.
He was referring to how the Duras sisters died in the explosion of Chang's Bird of Prey.
That said DS9 recycled the hell out of its own footage.
Generations pretty much had to split its budget and production staff with All Good Things.
That's not it at all. They wanted both a model that was easier to work with as the Galaxy as beautiful as she was, was notoriously a ***** to shoot, and they needed something that was higher quality to stand up on the big screen.
They did get it up to be the E though before the Sovereign was designed. The later which they only used for one movie before going full CGI.
Unlikely imo.
Don't get me wrong here, but i have read the same argument about the constitution class model and how happy the producers where when they blew it up in ST:III, only to use it again in the following movies, lol.
Sure we can't really estimate if the GCS model was difficult to shoot or not, but i don't buy it as only reason to radically change the ship design of the enterprise.
They surely could have created a design more related to the GCS instead of creating a almost retro looking ship. Again, don't get me wrong the sov has its fans but i can't really see a lineage from Ambassador to Galaxy to Sovereign (from a movie production point of view).
The Sov design is just too different and frankly too kirk-ish looking imo.
The people working with the model said it was difficult to shoot because it weighed to much. It's part of why they made a smaller model they used for most of TNG. The problem is that the 4 foot model was not detailed enough for cinema so they had to use the 6.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class_model
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sovereign_class_model
Only thing those don't tell us is how easy the Sovereign was to shoot.
the miniture shooting did not even start on first contact until about a month into filming
So the decision to use a totally different ship was made while to movie was being shot?
The more i think about it the stranger it seems.
Just thinking loud now, what scene was so hard to film that wasn't already being made on TV (of course with less detail) with the Galaxy Model?
The flyby in front of the Defiant? Doesn't seem too complicated tbh.
They even used a nebula class model in the battlescene.
I mean they do not actually move the model, they move the camera around it, while the model stands still.
And why did the new ship had to look so radical different with almost no connection to the previous one? (if you didn't know better, one could think both ships wheren't even from the same century imo)
ironicly he is the one that gave us the challenger (a galaxy) and the final episode of enterpise which was basicly an episode of TNG and took place on the D and had some great exterior shots
http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/4x22/thesearethevoyages364.jpg
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/e/e7/Galaxy_class_aft.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20051125173233&path-prefix=en
http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/4x22/thesearethevoyages016.jpg
http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/4x22/thesearethevoyages083.jpg
http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/4x22/thesearethevoyages362.jpg
there is more D shots then NX shots LOL
Thats exactly what some of us said, after 20 years of Connie's, Miranda's, and Excel's when TNG first presented the Galaxy. Even taking into account the 80 years gap, the Galaxy is a pretty radical change itself.
i already strongly disliked braga, but he was also a literal galaxy hatter? thats irredeemable.
True but:
1. it's almost 80 years between Excelsior and Galaxy. *
2. The Galaxy looks much more futuristic/advanced, while the Sovereign looks like it where more from kirks era or at least a step backwards from the fluid GCS design.
*Don't get me wrong if they had designed the -D similar like the Sovereign in the first place, the Galaxy could easily have been a ship from the 26th century.