I have read (can't remember where) that they didn't want to have a Sovereign in DS9 because people would be too easily "confused", whatever that means.
On the other hand they managed to have a Intrepid class in one DS9 episode. Again i think these conflicts between the various producers didn't help making their shows better.
EDIT:
I think this is similar like ST:3 when one of Kruges officers described the Enterprise as "battleship" (sorry i only know the German sub.)
Klingons just seem to like thinking in military terms.
In English they referred to it as a "battlecruiser". Which honestly, the only people that probably didn't call the ship that was the Federation.
In English they referred to it as a "battlecruiser". Which honestly, the only people that probably didn't call the ship that was the Federation.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that everyone but the Federation referred to their explorers as warships. Since, really, that it what they are in the military sense.
in the manual saucer separation was only to be used as a way to get civilians out of a combat zone if things got too serious acting as a large life boat wile the star drive would hold them off so the saucer could escape on impulse.... yeah not really fully thoughts out on that one lol
pretty much it was suppose to be a last ditch maneuver. gene was the only one that thought it should be done in every fight and is the one that called it the battle bridge and battle section. name stuck
also on screen worf is the only person to refer to the star drive as a "warship" with increased tactical abilities... wile he was talking to klingons on a ship tour in the first season
I understand what you are saying, but still, the saucer section carrying away the longest phaser arrays (top and bottom) and leaving it with one stub somewhat flies against the sense of the arguement in these forums that array length equals firepower. By those standards, the star drive section really isnt able to hit hard enough, compared to having he saucer on, to ensure the safety of the impulse only "life boat".
Why bother seperating? You'll only end up with a speed bump of a stardive and a saucer that will just die tired. Just run away as one unit, fast as you to can get away.
Why bother seperating? You'll only end up with a speed bump of a stardive and a saucer that will just die tired. Just run away as one unit, fast as you to can get away.
But the thing is why the producers chose a almost retro looking design for a 24th century top of the line ship.
Especially while there where much more smoother looking designs already been established.
Sure in retrospect for some it doesn't seem so noticeable, but before ST:8 the trend was going to smaller/bulkier nacelles and more heavy saucer/engineering hull starship designs.
(Ambassador, Nebula, Galaxy, Intrepid, even Defiant)
But ST:8 introduced a lot of new designs that totally broke with this pattern with some almost looking alien Starfleet ships (steamrunner for ex.).
I don't say they look bad per se, but the transition came out of nowhere.
The same could be said about the new introduced uniforms then, everything felt totally different imo.
If I remeber correctly, Excelsior was still experimental (NX registry still) and was playing testbed. It seemed that it was a one off design at the time.
As far asthe Galaxy being the most powerful class, why would the design the most powerful weapon on the ship to be seperated from the Stardive section when the Battle Bridge (suggesting that the stardrive was supposed to do actual fightng , seperate from the saucer) was in use? The Star Driver appears to only have 1/3 of the ships total weapons itself, but was supposed to do fighting without loss of combat capabilty? Seems silly to gimp that section of the ship as a delaying tool, while the non-warp drive saucer tries to sneak away. Dont you think?
The volume difference between Galaxy and Sovereign/Ambassador was that the later wasnt designed to wander so far away from the Federation without resupply, the Galaxy was a borderline generation ship.
As far as switching to the Sovereign, they wanted a different vibe for the hero ship and the previous ship was hard to film. They were in the process of switching to CGI, but they wanted a fresh start as well. Sometimes a rose is just a rose.
I understand what you are saying, but still, the saucer section carrying away the longest phaser arrays (top and bottom) and leaving it with one stub somewhat flies against the sense of the arguement in these forums that array length equals firepower. By those standards, the star drive section really isnt able to hit hard enough, compared to having he saucer on, to ensure the safety of the impulse only "life boat".
Why bother seperating? You'll only end up with a speed bump of a stardive and a saucer that will just die tired. Just run away as one unit, fast as you to can get away.
the star drives main weapon the rapid fire/burst fire photon launcher is still there which is described as the main weapon of the galaxy (also the one rarely used because peaceful) and getting the civilians to safety with the main beam weapon sounds pretty starfleet thinking to me.
the star drives main weapon the rapid fire/burst fire photon launcher is still there which is described as the main weapon of the galaxy (also the one rarely used because peaceful) and getting the civilians to safety with the main beam weapon sounds pretty starfleet thinking to me.
If I remember right, even tech' manuals say torpedos only really do damage to unshielded targets, so the stardrive would still be gimped in combat.
Having the main phaser arrays on the escaping saucer might be good for the saucer (assuming it can power full weapons, shields, and impulse engines as the max levels, except that it might make it a significant enough target at that point (I am all for every ship being able to punch above its weight, mind you). It really doesn't help the stardrive, the part of the ship that is doing the actual fighting and supposed to be protecting the saucer, if it loses the ships biggest combat weapns, the main beam arrays. Unless the stardrive is supposed to be somewhat of a suicidal speed bump in hopes the saucer can crawl away, I dont see it being very effective this way.
Sadly, the best use of the saucer escape was in Generations, except for the actual crashing part. It didnt need to evade anyone, so speed was marginally necessary. If they had made retractable warp nacelles with a core capable of about warp 5 or so as an auxilliary for the saucer, the. The whole design wouldve made sense.
If I remember right, even tech' manuals say torpedos only really do damage to unshielded targets, so the stardrive would still be gimped in combat.
Having the main phaser arrays on the escaping saucer might be good for the saucer (assuming it can power full weapons, shields, and impulse engines as the max levels, except that it might make it a significant enough target at that point (I am all for every ship being able to punch above its weight, mind you). It really doesn't help the stardrive, the part of the ship that is doing the actual fighting and supposed to be protecting the saucer, if it loses the ships biggest combat weapns, the main beam arrays. Unless the stardrive is supposed to be somewhat of a suicidal speed bump in hopes the saucer can crawl away, I dont see it being very effective this way.
Sadly, the best use of the saucer escape was in Generations, except for the actual crashing part. It didnt need to evade anyone, so speed was marginally necessary. If they had made retractable warp nacelles with a core capable of about warp 5 or so as an auxilliary for the saucer, the. The whole design wouldve made sense.
What does it matter that the longest phaser arrays go with the saucer, the only ever seem to fire one beam at a time on the show, and they are all supposed to be the same quality. Also once separated, the Galaxy would be considerably less massive, therefor better at maneuvering, making use of the 10 remaining phaser strips and 2 torpedo launchers, it may loose the 2 saucer impulse engines, that are never active when the ship if flying in one piece, but you also gain power being used for the saucer's systems. Such systems include life support, inertial dampeners, and structural integrity, which without the load of the saucer, the neck does not need to be as heavily reinforced.
What does it matter that the longest phaser arrays go with the saucer, the only ever seem to fire one beam at a time on the show, and they are all supposed to be the same quality. Also once separated, the Galaxy would be considerably less massive, therefor better at maneuvering, making use of the 10 remaining phaser strips and 2 torpedo launchers, it may loose the 2 saucer impulse engines, that are never active when the ship if flying in one piece, but you also gain power being used for the saucer's systems. Such systems include life support, inertial dampeners, and structural integrity, which without the load of the saucer, the neck does not need to be as heavily reinforced.
It depends on who you listen to to say if it matters. Some people say that the longer the beam array, the more powerful it is. I am not one of those people, but those who are say that the Galaxy is the most powerful because of the size of the saucer array. But if thats true, by the same concept, the star drive is gimped and not very effective. Thats poses to the lenth = firepower, why would Starfleet handicap the star drive then?
Its not that I believe that, I just wanted to hear someone from the other camp explain that logic.
So hey. Those guys at that one place found the new pilot ships. But it's not being posted on that one place. It's being posted on the twitter which is being posted on the reddit. You should go take a look. They're funky.
Sorry for the off topic but I can't exactly make a thread about it, ya know? Just take it as giving my fellow Galaxy fans a heads up on something.
I understand what you are saying, but still, the saucer section carrying away the longest phaser arrays (top and bottom) and leaving it with one stub somewhat flies against the sense of the arguement in these forums that array length equals firepower. By those standards, the star drive section really isnt able to hit hard enough, compared to having he saucer on, to ensure the safety of the impulse only "life boat".
Why bother seperating? You'll only end up with a speed bump of a stardive and a saucer that will just die tired. Just run away as one unit, fast as you to can get away.
the size of the phaser array does not effect the power output of the array, only the firing angles.
separating the ship would cut the power needs on the warp core by a LOT freeing up all that energy from the saucer for weapons and shields.
further, even though 2 of the ship's four impulse drives would be taken by the saucer, you would also have lost all of the mass of the saucer as well.
What does it matter that the longest phaser arrays go with the saucer, the only ever seem to fire one beam at a time on the show, and they are all supposed to be the same quality. Also once separated, the Galaxy would be considerably less massive, therefor better at maneuvering, making use of the 10 remaining phaser strips and 2 torpedo launchers, it may loose the 2 saucer impulse engines, that are never active when the ship if flying in one piece, but you also gain power being used for the saucer's systems. Such systems include life support, inertial dampeners, and structural integrity, which without the load of the saucer, the neck does not need to be as heavily reinforced.
if I remember right, all four impulse drives are used as needed. the two in the stardrive are center of mass and would be the main impulse drives. saucer drives are probably used for high speeds and to more for boosting maneuvering.
if I remember right, all four impulse drives are used as needed. the two in the stardrive are center of mass and would be the main impulse drives. saucer drives are probably used for high speeds and to more for boosting maneuvering.
Most of the 'longer arrays are better' arguments come from either the tech manual or the fact that in most episodes when the Galaxy really opens up - it's the primary saucer arrays and not the others. In a nutshell - the manual states that the more emitters are in the array, the more energy can be funneled into one shot.
Notice that when the Enterprise E or Voyager really open up on something, they use longer arrays too. The honest explanation - though - is the longer array powercycling just looked really cool, and it showed the Galaxy/Sov/Voyager were really ready to open into something. The starship version of a cobra's hood or a cat hissing, I guess.
As to four impulse drives... I could have sworn the Galaxy only had three. Two saucer, one neck. Is the neck drive supposed to be a double engine or something?
So hey. Those guys at that one place found the new pilot ships. But it's not being posted on that one place. It's being posted on the twitter which is being posted on the reddit. You should go take a look. They're funky.
Sorry for the off topic but I can't exactly make a thread about it, ya know? Just take it as giving my fellow Galaxy fans a heads up on something.
Very interesting. The feddie variant looks... strange. I can see some Defiant in it, so that should make some people very happy. And the KDF looks like a second raptor. Interesting. Thanks for the head's up on them, though.
I completely agree. Longer phaser array length means larger firing arc.
Every time in TNG they needed a most powerful phaser blast it revolved around transferring as much power as power via the warp core to the EPS grid to an emitter on the array in the optimal firing position.
At the time of TNG the Ent-D was the most powerful ship bc it was the most advanced and had the most powerful warp core of any class. Power Generation.
In the Nth Degree the ship was being chased by an alien probe and a standard phaser blast had no effect. Geordi isolated emitters on the array and increased plasma flow to the EPS grid feeding those isolated emitters.
Sounds like array length meant nothing here.
In Darmok, which the FX is now fixed in the enhanced TNG and the blast comes from the phaser array NOT the photon tube, Geordi and Worf work to reinforce power from the EPS grid to an emitter on the array bc they needed a more powerful phaser blast to disable the scattering field preventing the Ent-D from beaming up Picard. The whole array wasn't utilized here either.
Sounds like they would have tried to improvise a phaser canon- like effect.
In BOBW the main deflector dish was utilized as a giant emitter because it could channel that much power at controlled frequencies. A blast far more powerful than their photons and phasers could ever provide Geordi said. Channeling warp power from the warp core which is why Shelby had to beam over to the Cube to slow it to impulse. Might have worked if Picard didn't have the borg adapt prior to the blast.
In All Good Things we see the future Galaxy forgo using its main array and tear apart a Neghvar using the Phaser Lance...A single huge emitter with an assembly on the underside of the saucer that receives power directly from the Stardrive section...where the warp core is. Powerful blast without having to burn out the deflector dish every time you use it and crippling your own ship.
If the length of the array is not directly tied to the output of the phaser now it makes sense why ships designed after the Galaxy have their arrays broken up.
Its all about power generation and effectively transfer that power to discharge it.
This sounds reasonable and it doesn't downgrade the GCS offensive power compared to the Sovereign or other ships in the slightest, because as all Starfleet ships the GCS could be upgraded like crazy (yeah excel i look at you ).
So in general, the bigger ship has more firepower if it is kept up to date (meaning power grid, energy generation and Phaser emitter being up to date) compared to a smaller ship.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
But the thing is why the producers chose a almost retro looking design for a 24th century top of the line ship.
Especially while there where much more smoother looking designs already been established.
Sure in retrospect for some it doesn't seem so noticeable, but before ST:8 the trend was going to smaller/bulkier nacelles and more heavy saucer/engineering hull starship designs.
(Ambassador, Nebula, Galaxy, Intrepid, even Defiant)
But ST:8 introduced a lot of new designs that totally broke with this pattern with some almost looking alien Starfleet ships (steamrunner for ex.).
I don't say they look bad per se, but the transition came out of nowhere.
The same could be said about the new introduced uniforms then, everything felt totally different imo.
That's a matter of opinion as I see nothing "retro" about the Sovereign. It's a blended hull starship with long nacelles. Unless you're thinking of long nacelles with a shuttlebay in the fantail as retro. Maybe retro in the sense of a latter 2000s Camaro, Mustang, or something.
If anything I place the Intrepid into the Sovereign generation...or perhaps vice versa is more appropriate. The Intrepid was the paradigm shift in ship design and a bridge between the Galaxy and Sovereign. The Intrepid had Galaxy style nacelles and configuration, shorter, with the nacelles more or less below the top of the saucer, and the saucer-stardrive blended hull that would later be sported by the Sovereign and Prometheus and the longer instead of wider saucer section.
I've always thought of the Akira as the spiritual successor of the Miranda, after the Nebula, the under-slung nacelles, the roll bar, with torpedo launcher up top everything screamed future Miranda. The Steamrunner is very visually interesting kind of an almost wing shaped saucer, with the nacelles attached, and then the navigational deflector suspended from the nacelles, it was very funky. The Saber is the opposite with the saucer and deflector integrated while the nacelles are on the end of the saucer. They both seem related to the Defiant which is basically a D shaped saucer section with the nacelles on the sides, the impulse engines stuck to the back, and a nav deflector stuck to the front.
I think there's something to consider about all the new ship designs that can't be overemphasized. That is the difference between Starfleet and the Kingon Empire. Klingon will repurpose a hull design until it literally becomes completely incompatible with upgrades. Starfleet and the Corps of Engineers will test EVERYTHING that pops into their minds. Call it a holdover of the America/Russia cold war style if you want. Look how many fighter jets the US military has fielded. Now look at Russia. Notice anything? Look at the Mig-29 Fulcrum...now look at the Su-27 Flanker, and the next Su after that and after that. You would think they were building Birds of Prey. In addition Starfleet has input on ship designs from what? Engineers from maybe 150 member worlds? Their best and brightest sent to Starfleet and the Daystrom Institute to research and develop the greatest ships the Federation has ever seen? Of course there will be some wildly different designs.
The Uniforms were very clear to me. Those were war uniforms. They reversed the previous uniform. The Voyager/DS9/Generations uniforms were department color with a grey undershirt. The First Contact/Dominion War uniforms were grey with the department color undershirt. And honestly I think they were suppose to feel completely different, the mood had changed.
In universe, at the eve of the launch of a brand new, very advanced cruiser, the iconic enterprise was 'destroyed', with no loss of life. The sovereign class itself, being so impressive for what it was, must have seemed entirely worthy of having one named enterprise. Pretty much that simple. the enterprise doesn't necessarily need to be a member of the most powerful class, they didn't rename the excelcior, they made the enterprise another connie.
Skipping the insulting tirade, the Excelsior was only a few months clear of the sabotage that Scotty put her through and still trying to do Transwarp testing, hardly suited for assuming the mantle of Enterprise.
The Sovereigns strike me as being easier to build then a Galaxy. And for the same materials you can get two (perhaps 3) Sovereigns for the cost of a single Galaxy class.
Not wrong, It would be about two. In the beginning Gene said that Galaxies would be so resource intensive that it wouldn't make sense to build them in large numbers. As much as he liked to round out his science as much as possible, he does truly underestimate the VAST amount of resources the Federation would have access to.
As to where the Sovereigns were during the Dominion War - I always heard it was a licensing issue. While Paramount had the rights to use the CBS owned designs - it wasn't a two way street. So Paramount could use a Galaxy or Nebula, but CBS couldn't use a Sovereign or a Steamrunner. The 'soft canon' explanation is that the Sovereigns were too new to risk on a front line fight when proven and tested ships like the Galaxy and Defiants were holding the front just fine. So the Sovereigns were held back for home defense fleets and field testing while the Galaxy's did the heavy lifting.
A decade too early as has been said.
This is why in Insurrection - when the Dominion war was still going strong - the Enterprise was at home 'waving the flag' for a minor species joining the Federation.
I haven't read the novels, but apparently the Enterprise had other save the galaxy missions going on at the time, I would imagine that stuff like welcoming new species into the Federation isn't just misuses of the premiere battlecruiser but more like, "we have a diplomatic mission", "well of course send Picard".
The point that we all seem to be dancing around is - the Galaxy and Sovereign aren't designed for the same purpose. They aren't a replacement for each other. And no matter what anyone says - the Enterprise E is never referred to as the 'Flagship of the fleet'. The closest it ever comes is Picard taking command of the fleet at Sol during the second Borg incursion.
It was named Enterprise. In Starfleet Enterprise means flagship of the fleet.
So while a Sovereign is newer - it might be faster (though this is NEVER proven on screen - the fastest stated warp factor we ever hear of her going is warp 8), and her systems are more advanced. That's a lot like comparing a brand new top of the line guided missile frigate to the Nimitz class aircraft carrier. The frigate might be newer, her tech is top of the line - but she isn't replacing the aircraft carrier.
That ticked me off too, list the specs. I heard 9.9 or 9.95 which would make sense compared to the Intrepid's 9.975. Not the fastest ship in the fleet but a heck of a lot of firepower that can be deployed rapidly where you need it. A fast response battlecruiser.
Still, you brought a smile to my face. Remember how many times in DS9 the Cardassians and even the Dominion crapped their pants at a Galaxy. Emissary, the Cardassians were trying to start something. They hauled tail when they found out the Enterprise was coming back. Their response was basically, "NOPE".
Klingons too, Relief task force rapidly approaches led by the USS Venture Martok and Worf quote Kahless and he backs down.
Leave a Galaxy on patrol if you want the sector safe. If you have to run down a problem then you send a Sovereign.
If I remember right, even tech' manuals say torpedos only really do damage to unshielded targets, so the stardrive would still be gimped in combat.
You've been playing STO too long :rolleyes:
Actually it goes both ways.
Until subspace jacketing (wrapping a subspace field around a phaser pulse) showed up with Phaser Cannons, Photon Torpedoes were the only weapons that could be fired at warp since phasers a relativity limited.
Photon Torpedoes could be defended against with shields yes, but if you "phaser dimpled" i.e. punch holes in the shield and then fire the torpedo into the hole, then when the shield reestablishes a split second later, the torpedo explodes inside the shield envelope and gets bounced back onto the ship like a shape charge doing WAY more damage (vaporize instead of fragment).
If you want pure on screen prove that torpedoes are viable against shields though see the Battle of Khitomer. That was a Bird of Prey picking the Enterprise apart with torpedoes only. And in possibly the only straight up fair fight ever depicted outside of the Dominion War. And by fair I mean fight where the Enterprise wasn't gimped before the real battle began.
Having the main phaser arrays on the escaping saucer might be good for the saucer (assuming it can power full weapons, shields, and impulse engines as the max levels, except that it might make it a significant enough target at that point (I am all for every ship being able to punch above its weight, mind you). It really doesn't help the stardrive, the part of the ship that is doing the actual fighting and supposed to be protecting the saucer, if it loses the ships biggest combat weapns, the main beam arrays. Unless the stardrive is supposed to be somewhat of a suicidal speed bump in hopes the saucer can crawl away, I dont see it being very effective this way.
Sadly, the best use of the saucer escape was in Generations, except for the actual crashing part. It didnt need to evade anyone, so speed was marginally necessary. If they had made retractable warp nacelles with a core capable of about warp 5 or so as an auxilliary for the saucer, the. The whole design wouldve made sense.
Agreed, the Prometheus is this concept done right. I would revisit that in later Galaxies myself, I mean all you have to do is basically install Runabout Warp Drives outboard of the Impulse engines inside of the saucer section and presto the Saucer section has a chance of making it to safety. The only issue being unlike the Stardrive if the saucer is too far out she doesn't have Bussard collectors to extend her range.
Ultimately the crash was textbook, literally depicted pretty much as it was shown in the Tech Manual. But considering the use of warp drive in battle, an impulse only escape ship was never viable in an active battle. It's much better as a mass life boat. It has many advantages, it's basically a city in space, lots of room for both personnel and vital things like hydroponics and scientifically it has both the lion's share of research facilities (useful if they're getting resources from a planet), cargo bays, and 2/3rds of the ships computer banks.
Now if it was to be used as it's used in game, to basically turn a one on one fight into a double team then it makes sense, especially if the saucer impulse engines can provide enough juice to make the phaser arrays punch at full power.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
That ticked me off too, list the specs. I heard 9.9 or 9.95 which would make sense compared to the Intrepid's 9.975. Not the fastest ship in the fleet but a heck of a lot of firepower that can be deployed rapidly where you need it. A fast response battlecruiser.
Still, you brought a smile to my face. Remember how many times in DS9 the Cardassians and even the Dominion crapped their pants at a Galaxy. Emissary, the Cardassians were trying to start something. They hauled tail when they found out the Enterprise was coming back. Their response was basically, "NOPE".
Klingons too, Relief task force rapidly approaches led by the USS Venture Martok and Worf quote Kahless and he backs down.
Leave a Galaxy on patrol if you want the sector safe. If you have to run down a problem then you send a Sovereign.
They actually never say a speed faster then warp 8 in the movies themselves. Here's the quote from memory alpha.
"Warp 8 is the highest speed a Sovereign-class ship was known to have traveled on-screen. According to Star Trek: Starship Spotter, the maximum warp of the Sovereign-class ship was warp factor 9.7. However, Star Trek Evolutions gives the Sovereign a maximum warp of 9.985."
I don't think the Sovereign is faster then the Galaxy - but I do think she can maintain full speed longer.
I do wonder - how much impact do you think Playmates had over the Enterprise being replaced? They had the Trek license at the time - and the Enterprise E was a kick-TRIBBLE seller that year at Christmas if I remember right.
It would be heartbreaking to learn that the Enterprise D died for the same reason Duke and Optimus Prime did... to sell a new toy.
If I remember right, even tech' manuals say torpedos only really do damage to unshielded targets, so the stardrive would still be gimped in combat.
QUOTE]
The best phaser did 13 points of damage
The best torpedo did 20 points of damage
According to Gene roddenbury............they both impacted shields and hull the same
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Bigger or Smaller doesn't matter. Weight has no meaning in space. Its power generation that matters.
Sovereign has the same size warp core as the Galaxy...and huge fusion reactors.
With "bigger'" i meant more space for bigger Warp Core. (probably)
Assuming that if both are of the same tech standard, the bigger one will produce more energy.
(I think we already had this discussion already, but i can't remember the outcome. )
On the other hand the Battle section alone having such a oversized Warp Core must be able to produce huge amounts of firepower since there is less energy needed for movement and a smaller shield bubble to generate.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
If I remember right, even tech' manuals say torpedos only really do damage to unshielded targets, so the stardrive would still be gimped in combat.
QUOTE]
The best phaser did 13 points of damage
The best torpedo did 20 points of damage
According to Gene roddenbury............they both impacted shields and hull the same
Gameplay wise i'd prefer a much less complcated approach than STO.
Energy weapons:
-> strong against energy shields
-> weak against armor and hull.
Torpedoes:
-> strong against Armor and hull
-> weak against energy shielding
So both weapon types would serve a function, instead to go all energy weapons like STO.
Sorry for being off topic.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Heavy weapons, like torpedoes, did more damage as a matter of fact, but also suffered from a weakness to ECM and needed a skilled player to perform well.
The whole division between hull damage and shield damage in sto is bogus anyway.
Most of the 'longer arrays are better' arguments come from either the tech manual or the fact that in most episodes when the Galaxy really opens up - it's the primary saucer arrays and not the others. In a nutshell - the manual states that the more emitters are in the array, the more energy can be funneled into one shot.
Notice that when the Enterprise E or Voyager really open up on something, they use longer arrays too. The honest explanation - though - is the longer array powercycling just looked really cool, and it showed the Galaxy/Sov/Voyager were really ready to open into something. The starship version of a cobra's hood or a cat hissing, I guess.
And the end statement is the way I see it as well, its a dramatic special effect. Otherwise, starships would have emitter arrays wrapping around the hull like a complex domino line. And the Galaxy X phaser lance would have also never happened.
Heavy weapons, like torpedoes, did more damage as a matter of fact, but also suffered from a weakness to ECM and needed a skilled player to perform well.
The whole division between hull damage and shield damage in sto is bogus anyway.
I agree
The starship combat was 25X better than STO as well took real skill to beat your opponent in SFC and was much more complex than sto as well
Ships were different but equal in the same point range. There went too many OP ships until SFC2 then 3 brought a few more OP designs whos points didn't match up right
Miss that game
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
SFC 2 was weird with lyran ramming or hydran hardcore fusion OR hardcore bore cannon tactics.
Damn hydran fusion destroyers packed battleship grade punch, it was one punch, yes, but man did it hurt...
Fed' battleship, point blank alpha strike's were awesome! The Kazinti/Mirak ships added a nice change in flavor too. I am just glad that I didn t need a truckload of rulebooks to play it, like the tabletop that it came from.
A photon torpedo has an M/AM warhead. Its primary damage should not be "kinetic".
A Plasma torpedo in the old TOS literally was superheated gas, thrown at you in a giant blob.
In TNG and onwards, plasma torpedoes where like photons, but with a different warhead type. Probably a charge of combustable warpplasma or eps plasma. We all know how volatile that shiite can be.
Klinkers always stuck to photons and heavy yield disruptors: Bigger is better
The advantage of energy weapons over projectiles was that in their engagement range, energy weapons allow for a higher, directed (that means: not self immolating) attack cadence. Hammering the enemy ships to disrupt shielding. Hitting a shield with a particle beam weapon (and all Startrek energy weapons are particle weapons...) will naturally impart a shortlived deformation of the shield formation. Might even open up cracks so that energy can bleed through. That's why sparks start to fly: Energy is fed back into the system and there is only so much to be done in compensating these random bleed throughs.
We saw that a sustained, high power phaser shot from the enterprise in yesterdays enterprise basically shattered the shield of the leading K'vort. And the ship.
However energy weapons lack range. While star trek never truly depicted proper use of standoff weapons like projectiles, we can look at SFB/SFC for examples here.
In SFC, a photon torpedo in its standard setting would always do its full damage, assuming a hit was scored. The weapon outranged energy weapons considerably. Standard engagements began far outside phaser range and as such ,it was customary for Federation captains to (depending on skill level of the tactical officer) set the torpedoes for proximity charge or leave em at standard and then try to play range and bombard the incoming vessel.
(of course this was possible only due to the better implementation of combat attrition: shields recharge on a set number per second depending on the ship hull. The player basically only used excess energy available to his ship to create a layer of buffer shield power over the "natural" shield layers. Incoming damage would deduct points from the buffer first.)
The torpedo there has a role: its a standoff weapon that will allow you to damage the enemy before he comes into main engagement range.
What i want to say is this:
STO's differentiation of "does damage to hull" and "does damage to shields" is silly. Your hull will crumble under a particle beam and under a a/am explosion in either case. Its just that the weapons are fundamentally made for different engagement scenarios.
Comments
In English they referred to it as a "battlecruiser". Which honestly, the only people that probably didn't call the ship that was the Federation.
I understand what you are saying, but still, the saucer section carrying away the longest phaser arrays (top and bottom) and leaving it with one stub somewhat flies against the sense of the arguement in these forums that array length equals firepower. By those standards, the star drive section really isnt able to hit hard enough, compared to having he saucer on, to ensure the safety of the impulse only "life boat".
Why bother seperating? You'll only end up with a speed bump of a stardive and a saucer that will just die tired. Just run away as one unit, fast as you to can get away.
THANK YOU! Finally some logic :P
the star drives main weapon the rapid fire/burst fire photon launcher is still there which is described as the main weapon of the galaxy (also the one rarely used because peaceful) and getting the civilians to safety with the main beam weapon sounds pretty starfleet thinking to me.
If I remember right, even tech' manuals say torpedos only really do damage to unshielded targets, so the stardrive would still be gimped in combat.
Having the main phaser arrays on the escaping saucer might be good for the saucer (assuming it can power full weapons, shields, and impulse engines as the max levels, except that it might make it a significant enough target at that point (I am all for every ship being able to punch above its weight, mind you). It really doesn't help the stardrive, the part of the ship that is doing the actual fighting and supposed to be protecting the saucer, if it loses the ships biggest combat weapns, the main beam arrays. Unless the stardrive is supposed to be somewhat of a suicidal speed bump in hopes the saucer can crawl away, I dont see it being very effective this way.
Sadly, the best use of the saucer escape was in Generations, except for the actual crashing part. It didnt need to evade anyone, so speed was marginally necessary. If they had made retractable warp nacelles with a core capable of about warp 5 or so as an auxilliary for the saucer, the. The whole design wouldve made sense.
What does it matter that the longest phaser arrays go with the saucer, the only ever seem to fire one beam at a time on the show, and they are all supposed to be the same quality. Also once separated, the Galaxy would be considerably less massive, therefor better at maneuvering, making use of the 10 remaining phaser strips and 2 torpedo launchers, it may loose the 2 saucer impulse engines, that are never active when the ship if flying in one piece, but you also gain power being used for the saucer's systems. Such systems include life support, inertial dampeners, and structural integrity, which without the load of the saucer, the neck does not need to be as heavily reinforced.
It depends on who you listen to to say if it matters. Some people say that the longer the beam array, the more powerful it is. I am not one of those people, but those who are say that the Galaxy is the most powerful because of the size of the saucer array. But if thats true, by the same concept, the star drive is gimped and not very effective. Thats poses to the lenth = firepower, why would Starfleet handicap the star drive then?
Its not that I believe that, I just wanted to hear someone from the other camp explain that logic.
Sorry for the off topic but I can't exactly make a thread about it, ya know? Just take it as giving my fellow Galaxy fans a heads up on something.
Mine Trap Supporter
the size of the phaser array does not effect the power output of the array, only the firing angles.
separating the ship would cut the power needs on the warp core by a LOT freeing up all that energy from the saucer for weapons and shields.
further, even though 2 of the ship's four impulse drives would be taken by the saucer, you would also have lost all of the mass of the saucer as well.
if I remember right, all four impulse drives are used as needed. the two in the stardrive are center of mass and would be the main impulse drives. saucer drives are probably used for high speeds and to more for boosting maneuvering.
I agree with you. I just want to hear the logic from the other camp on how it works with their explanation of beam arrays.
Most of the 'longer arrays are better' arguments come from either the tech manual or the fact that in most episodes when the Galaxy really opens up - it's the primary saucer arrays and not the others. In a nutshell - the manual states that the more emitters are in the array, the more energy can be funneled into one shot.
Notice that when the Enterprise E or Voyager really open up on something, they use longer arrays too. The honest explanation - though - is the longer array powercycling just looked really cool, and it showed the Galaxy/Sov/Voyager were really ready to open into something. The starship version of a cobra's hood or a cat hissing, I guess.
As to four impulse drives... I could have sworn the Galaxy only had three. Two saucer, one neck. Is the neck drive supposed to be a double engine or something?
Very interesting. The feddie variant looks... strange. I can see some Defiant in it, so that should make some people very happy. And the KDF looks like a second raptor. Interesting. Thanks for the head's up on them, though.
This sounds reasonable and it doesn't downgrade the GCS offensive power compared to the Sovereign or other ships in the slightest, because as all Starfleet ships the GCS could be upgraded like crazy (yeah excel i look at you
So in general, the bigger ship has more firepower if it is kept up to date (meaning power grid, energy generation and Phaser emitter being up to date) compared to a smaller ship.
If anything I place the Intrepid into the Sovereign generation...or perhaps vice versa is more appropriate. The Intrepid was the paradigm shift in ship design and a bridge between the Galaxy and Sovereign. The Intrepid had Galaxy style nacelles and configuration, shorter, with the nacelles more or less below the top of the saucer, and the saucer-stardrive blended hull that would later be sported by the Sovereign and Prometheus and the longer instead of wider saucer section.
I've always thought of the Akira as the spiritual successor of the Miranda, after the Nebula, the under-slung nacelles, the roll bar, with torpedo launcher up top everything screamed future Miranda. The Steamrunner is very visually interesting kind of an almost wing shaped saucer, with the nacelles attached, and then the navigational deflector suspended from the nacelles, it was very funky. The Saber is the opposite with the saucer and deflector integrated while the nacelles are on the end of the saucer. They both seem related to the Defiant which is basically a D shaped saucer section with the nacelles on the sides, the impulse engines stuck to the back, and a nav deflector stuck to the front.
I think there's something to consider about all the new ship designs that can't be overemphasized. That is the difference between Starfleet and the Kingon Empire. Klingon will repurpose a hull design until it literally becomes completely incompatible with upgrades. Starfleet and the Corps of Engineers will test EVERYTHING that pops into their minds. Call it a holdover of the America/Russia cold war style if you want. Look how many fighter jets the US military has fielded. Now look at Russia. Notice anything? Look at the Mig-29 Fulcrum...now look at the Su-27 Flanker, and the next Su after that and after that. You would think they were building Birds of Prey. In addition Starfleet has input on ship designs from what? Engineers from maybe 150 member worlds? Their best and brightest sent to Starfleet and the Daystrom Institute to research and develop the greatest ships the Federation has ever seen? Of course there will be some wildly different designs.
The Uniforms were very clear to me. Those were war uniforms. They reversed the previous uniform. The Voyager/DS9/Generations uniforms were department color with a grey undershirt. The First Contact/Dominion War uniforms were grey with the department color undershirt. And honestly I think they were suppose to feel completely different, the mood had changed.
Skipping the insulting tirade, the Excelsior was only a few months clear of the sabotage that Scotty put her through and still trying to do Transwarp testing, hardly suited for assuming the mantle of Enterprise. Not wrong, It would be about two. In the beginning Gene said that Galaxies would be so resource intensive that it wouldn't make sense to build them in large numbers. As much as he liked to round out his science as much as possible, he does truly underestimate the VAST amount of resources the Federation would have access to.
A decade too early as has been said.
I haven't read the novels, but apparently the Enterprise had other save the galaxy missions going on at the time, I would imagine that stuff like welcoming new species into the Federation isn't just misuses of the premiere battlecruiser but more like, "we have a diplomatic mission", "well of course send Picard".
It was named Enterprise. In Starfleet Enterprise means flagship of the fleet.
That ticked me off too, list the specs. I heard 9.9 or 9.95 which would make sense compared to the Intrepid's 9.975. Not the fastest ship in the fleet but a heck of a lot of firepower that can be deployed rapidly where you need it. A fast response battlecruiser.
Still, you brought a smile to my face. Remember how many times in DS9 the Cardassians and even the Dominion crapped their pants at a Galaxy. Emissary, the Cardassians were trying to start something. They hauled tail when they found out the Enterprise was coming back. Their response was basically, "NOPE".
Klingons too, Relief task force rapidly approaches led by the USS Venture Martok and Worf quote Kahless and he backs down.
Leave a Galaxy on patrol if you want the sector safe. If you have to run down a problem then you send a Sovereign.
And to quote Nick Fury, "it was a dumbass decision", and someone should've ignored it.
If for no other reason than to remind people that things take place in the same universe.
You've been playing STO too long :rolleyes:
Actually it goes both ways.
Until subspace jacketing (wrapping a subspace field around a phaser pulse) showed up with Phaser Cannons, Photon Torpedoes were the only weapons that could be fired at warp since phasers a relativity limited.
Photon Torpedoes could be defended against with shields yes, but if you "phaser dimpled" i.e. punch holes in the shield and then fire the torpedo into the hole, then when the shield reestablishes a split second later, the torpedo explodes inside the shield envelope and gets bounced back onto the ship like a shape charge doing WAY more damage (vaporize instead of fragment).
If you want pure on screen prove that torpedoes are viable against shields though see the Battle of Khitomer. That was a Bird of Prey picking the Enterprise apart with torpedoes only. And in possibly the only straight up fair fight ever depicted outside of the Dominion War. And by fair I mean fight where the Enterprise wasn't gimped before the real battle began.
Agreed, the Prometheus is this concept done right. I would revisit that in later Galaxies myself, I mean all you have to do is basically install Runabout Warp Drives outboard of the Impulse engines inside of the saucer section and presto the Saucer section has a chance of making it to safety. The only issue being unlike the Stardrive if the saucer is too far out she doesn't have Bussard collectors to extend her range.
Ultimately the crash was textbook, literally depicted pretty much as it was shown in the Tech Manual. But considering the use of warp drive in battle, an impulse only escape ship was never viable in an active battle. It's much better as a mass life boat. It has many advantages, it's basically a city in space, lots of room for both personnel and vital things like hydroponics and scientifically it has both the lion's share of research facilities (useful if they're getting resources from a planet), cargo bays, and 2/3rds of the ships computer banks.
Now if it was to be used as it's used in game, to basically turn a one on one fight into a double team then it makes sense, especially if the saucer impulse engines can provide enough juice to make the phaser arrays punch at full power.
They actually never say a speed faster then warp 8 in the movies themselves. Here's the quote from memory alpha.
"Warp 8 is the highest speed a Sovereign-class ship was known to have traveled on-screen. According to Star Trek: Starship Spotter, the maximum warp of the Sovereign-class ship was warp factor 9.7. However, Star Trek Evolutions gives the Sovereign a maximum warp of 9.985."
I don't think the Sovereign is faster then the Galaxy - but I do think she can maintain full speed longer.
I do wonder - how much impact do you think Playmates had over the Enterprise being replaced? They had the Trek license at the time - and the Enterprise E was a kick-TRIBBLE seller that year at Christmas if I remember right.
It would be heartbreaking to learn that the Enterprise D died for the same reason Duke and Optimus Prime did... to sell a new toy.
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Assuming that if both are of the same tech standard, the bigger one will produce more energy.
(I think we already had this discussion already, but i can't remember the outcome.
On the other hand the Battle section alone having such a oversized Warp Core must be able to produce huge amounts of firepower since there is less energy needed for movement and a smaller shield bubble to generate.
Heavy weapons, like torpedoes, did more damage as a matter of fact, but also suffered from a weakness to ECM and needed a skilled player to perform well.
The whole division between hull damage and shield damage in sto is bogus anyway.
And the end statement is the way I see it as well, its a dramatic special effect. Otherwise, starships would have emitter arrays wrapping around the hull like a complex domino line. And the Galaxy X phaser lance would have also never happened.
I agree
The starship combat was 25X better than STO as well took real skill to beat your opponent in SFC and was much more complex than sto as well
Ships were different but equal in the same point range. There went too many OP ships until SFC2 then 3 brought a few more OP designs whos points didn't match up right
Miss that game
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Damn hydran fusion destroyers packed battleship grade punch, it was one punch, yes, but man did it hurt...
Fed' battleship, point blank alpha strike's were awesome! The Kazinti/Mirak ships added a nice change in flavor too. I am just glad that I didn t need a truckload of rulebooks to play it, like the tabletop that it came from.
A photon torpedo has an M/AM warhead. Its primary damage should not be "kinetic".
A Plasma torpedo in the old TOS literally was superheated gas, thrown at you in a giant blob.
In TNG and onwards, plasma torpedoes where like photons, but with a different warhead type. Probably a charge of combustable warpplasma or eps plasma. We all know how volatile that shiite can be.
Klinkers always stuck to photons and heavy yield disruptors: Bigger is better
The advantage of energy weapons over projectiles was that in their engagement range, energy weapons allow for a higher, directed (that means: not self immolating) attack cadence. Hammering the enemy ships to disrupt shielding. Hitting a shield with a particle beam weapon (and all Startrek energy weapons are particle weapons...) will naturally impart a shortlived deformation of the shield formation. Might even open up cracks so that energy can bleed through. That's why sparks start to fly: Energy is fed back into the system and there is only so much to be done in compensating these random bleed throughs.
We saw that a sustained, high power phaser shot from the enterprise in yesterdays enterprise basically shattered the shield of the leading K'vort. And the ship.
However energy weapons lack range. While star trek never truly depicted proper use of standoff weapons like projectiles, we can look at SFB/SFC for examples here.
In SFC, a photon torpedo in its standard setting would always do its full damage, assuming a hit was scored. The weapon outranged energy weapons considerably. Standard engagements began far outside phaser range and as such ,it was customary for Federation captains to (depending on skill level of the tactical officer) set the torpedoes for proximity charge or leave em at standard and then try to play range and bombard the incoming vessel.
(of course this was possible only due to the better implementation of combat attrition: shields recharge on a set number per second depending on the ship hull. The player basically only used excess energy available to his ship to create a layer of buffer shield power over the "natural" shield layers. Incoming damage would deduct points from the buffer first.)
The torpedo there has a role: its a standoff weapon that will allow you to damage the enemy before he comes into main engagement range.
What i want to say is this:
STO's differentiation of "does damage to hull" and "does damage to shields" is silly. Your hull will crumble under a particle beam and under a a/am explosion in either case. Its just that the weapons are fundamentally made for different engagement scenarios.