just remove the 40% acc bonus and the skill will be much more balanced for both pve/and pvp.
you know, in pve u equip high crtd weaps cause you wont need the acc. in pvp you have to use high acc weaps to actually be able to hit your target. ergo this change wouldnt affect pve in any way and deals with the uber critd stacking problem appaering with SS in pvp.
just remove the 40% acc bonus and the skill will be much more balanced for both pve/and pvp.
you know, in pve u equip high crtd weaps cause you wont need the acc. in pvp you have to use high acc weaps to actually be able to hit your target. ergo this change wouldnt affect pve in any way and deals with the uber critd stacking problem appaering with SS in pvp.
its as easy as that. all will be happy again.
I completely agree, a change like this could fix the problem
He he he this was a hilariously pleasant, slightly ignorant, rant.
They say SS3 isn't better than FAW for DPS in PvE.
They cry to not have it nerfed.
#logic
oh and Virusdancer's post completely shut them down, zero, nothing else to say. You ain't light them up even with a flamethrower anymore. It was the jack-of-all-trades post.
I don't know numbers; you know that. What *I* just do is simply look at what the top DPS-League folks are doing; and SS is not part of their equation. So, I simply figure that, however OP some people may deem it to be, apparently SS really isn't. At least not for PvE.
The DPS league people rely a lot on FAW and to a lesser degree CSV to get good DPS by hitting many targets and blowing them up as fast as possible. If there was an STF with single targets appearing one by one, SS would definitively be the go-to ability I'm that case. Heck it might do well against the CE if you ignore the Tholians and can survive without dying throughout the whole thing.
The DPS measures in PvE has to be taken with a grain of salt as a measure of effectiveness as it would never perform as well against other players.
agreed. You know, without Surgical in the way it currently is, PvE ships are doomed.
How can they live without it?
So youre telling me in PvE the top DPSers in the game that ARENT running any ships with Intel Abilities will soon be bypassed by those using Intel abilities?
You know the same top DPSers that are popping over 100k DPS? 100k DPS done in ships that arent Intel ships.
No, it didn't. It's information...overexplained perhaps, but it's easier to do that and answer potential questions rather than leave something without explanation, yeah? I have no problem spending a bit of time on things like that to try to help folks out.
I'm not particularly sure where the aggro is coming from, but you can go choke on it, fall off a roof into traffic, and not be noticed for a week until somebody comes along to scrape you off the road with a toothbrush into a little plastic baggy...
edit: Cause you know, there are still folks talking about SS3 as if it's better than other choices. Sure, it's better than Boarding Party 3...but folks are talking about it as if it's salvation for the meek. That kind of talk is just /facepalm.
I am doing this for your own good , and to so called pvpers, instead of wasting your energy with skills you should open your mind and look at disproportion between the damage and defence at mk XIV and different quality. Trying to alter skills in this stage will do only harm later. The problem is NOT the skills , is the bonus damage you get by upgrading weapons , that is alot higher than defence bonuses. After that you can play with skills , if its needed.
I am doing this for your own good , and to so called pvpers, instead of wasting your energy with skills you should open your mind and look at disproportion between the damage and defence at mk XIV and different quality. Trying to alter skills in this stage will do only harm later. The problem is NOT the skills , is the bonus damage you get by upgrading weapons , that is alot higher than defence bonuses. After that you can play with skills , if its needed.
The DPS league people rely a lot on FAW and to a lesser degree CSV to get good DPS by hitting many targets and blowing them up as fast as possible. If there was an STF with single targets appearing one by one, SS would definitively be the go-to ability I'm that case. Heck it might do well against the CE if you ignore the Tholians and can survive without dying throughout the whole thing.
Yeah, but that was my point *entirely*, wasn't? PvE and PvP are two wholly different beasts. PvE *isn't* about a single target spawning, one after another. It's more of an AoE deal, in which BFAW is superior.
And that is why it's wrong to just look at the numbers for individual abilities: then you wind up throwing your hands in the air, saying "I supplied them all the number, but they just won't be persuaded. I give up." And that is what just happened with VD, who I totally respect, btw, and who really *is* an absolute number wizard. But sometimes you need to look past measuring the output of an individual weapon, and consider what environment it will be used in. And then you'll realize that, in PvE, BFAW wins out to SS, simply because PvE gameplay radically differs from PvP.
The entire DPS-League top is using BFAW. If SS was allegedly so superior, they'd all be using the latter. None of you has been able to refute that logic. Not even remotely. Checkmate.
I am doing this for your own good , and to so called pvpers, instead of wasting your energy with skills you should open your mind and look at disproportion between the damage and defence at mk XIV and different quality. Trying to alter skills in this stage will do only harm later. The problem is NOT the skills , is the bonus damage you get by upgrading weapons , that is alot higher than defence bonuses. After that you can play with skills , if its needed.
The healing thing is of no concern. I have an healboat Odyssey, you're going to have a hard time taking it down even with a team. I'm saying that after a team made of highly skilled PvPers, both tacs and scis I know needed to storm it for several minutes to overwhelm my defenses. The MK disparity has already been analyzed by me after its last known patch.
Surgical is innately overpowered, no way around it. It needs to be rethought from the ground up in PvP. In fact
I'd say, in the meantime I go for Quantum Bubble + zero throttle + FBP = kill.
Oh wait, YOU said that. Stop trolling. You exemplify the exact reasons why you deserve none of the nerfs you cry for.
he's stupid enough to not realize that Quantum Bubble can be used only on three ships that, more or less, are the same, hence PvErs in this thread do not even fully understand the topic.
Yeah, but that was my point *entirely*, wasn't? PvE and PvP are two wholly different beasts. PvE *isn't* about a single target spawning, one after another. It's more of an AoE deal, in which BFAW is superior.
And that is why it's wrong to just look at the numbers for individual abilities: then you wind up throwing your hands in the air, saying "I supplied them all the number, but they just won't be persuaded. I give up." And that is what just happened with VD, who I totally respect, btw, and who really *is* an absolute number wizard. But sometimes you need to look past measuring the output of an individual weapon, and consider what environment it will be used in. And then you'll realize that, in PvE, BFAW wins out to SS, simply because PvE gameplay radically differs from PvP.
The entire DPS-League top is using BFAW. If SS was allegedly so superior, they'd all be using the latter. None of you has been able to refute that logic. Not even remotely. Checkmate.
so, would you or any other pver suffer from losing the bonus acc?
i dont think so. removing acc bonus could be a very easy and efficient solution to fix the problems SS creates in pvp while staying in line with very basic game rules which had been there since forever: Crtd for pve Acc for pvp.
so, would you or any other pver suffer from losing the bonus acc?
i dont think so. removing acc bonus could be a very easy and efficient solution to fix the problems SS creates in pvp while staying in line with very basic game rules which had been there since forever: Crtd for pve Acc for pvp.
Bonus [Acc], as I believe I said earlier in this thread, is kinda meaningless in PvE. I probably wouldn't even miss it. Big deal. I rather they adjust things for PvP-only, though. But if it came down to this, sure, take the [Acc].
Bonus [Acc], as I believe I said earlier in this thread, is kinda meaningless in PvE. I probably wouldn't even miss it. Big deal. I rather they adjust things for PvP-only, though. But if it came down to this, sure, take the [Acc].
Its not meaningless in PvE. Its just not the preferred Mod of PvE.
Its not meaningless in PvE. Its just not the preferred Mod of PvE.
Which is why I said 'kinda meaningless.' Thing is, in PvE you have a lot of bonus [Acc] to begin (typically >23%). And NPC's are dumb: they don't zip around you, at ludicrous speed: they just die. Everyone who's ever parsed anything will have noticed their [Acc] is always like 99.8% (not everywhere, but close to it). SS didn't need a whopping +40% [Acc] for PvE. Hence, I wouldn't really miss it, if they took it.
Which is why I said 'kinda meaningless.' Thing is, in PvE you have a lot of bonus [Acc] to begin (typically >23%). And NPC's are dumb: they don't zip around you, at ludicrous speed: they just die. Everyone who's ever parsed anything will have noticed their [Acc] is always like 99.8% (not everywhere, but close to it). SS didn't need a whopping +40% [Acc] for PvE. Hence, I wouldn't really miss it, if they took it.
Again. Not preferred does not mean meaningless. Just so we're clear 'kinda meaningless' and 'meaningless' is still meaningless. When you ask someone who min-maxes theyll tell you ACC is preferred over everything else besides CrtD and Pen. Considering not everyone is going to have a CrtDx3 Pen or CrtDx4 Mods. Theyre going to have to settle at times for other mods. ACC is much more preferred. Its still going to net you a better return on a target because of overflow.
I've never understood that thought process. It's never made sense to me. Cause usually what I see being said there has nothing to do with PvP and PvE...
...it's usually more along the lines of Challenge cannot coexist with Challenged Players on the same server.
Cause even if PvP were removed, there would still be an issue...you'd still have your gamers, your average players, and that group of Jerry's Kids.
I mean, seriously, how can they even balance PvE when they've going folks doing 2k, 5k, 10k, 15k, 20k, 30k, 45k, 50k, 60k, 75k or more DPS? It has nothing to do with PvP...it's PvE that's got the balance issue. How do they create content when they've got that wide a gap from their players?
Do you bring your PvP ship into PvE just like it is ?
No you don't you change abilitys you change gear out/ Doffs Boffs
Do you take your PvE ship into a PvP match...same thing
PvE and PvP share the ship hulls in common that's about it
Do you have to buy 100s of $$$bucks $$$ worth of lobi items upgrade grear and weapons to epic to win in PvP...yes unless your camping Noobs......Yes you do most if not all of the top PvPers do
I guess some of the most elite PvPers just use the white mk10 gear that comes on their ship :P I know someone is going to say that !!
To do content in PvE is this required .....No it isn't 8 to 15k DPS is plenty overkill actually and you need to buy nothing not gained ingame by playing to do it
Some do buy uberleet gear to do content in 2 minutes but they don't have too its optional in PvP it isn't
PvP is pure pay to win its been that way the 3 1/2 years ive been ingame and its never been close to balance that entire time
The reason there are so many who do very low dps is the beginning
Are the story missions segregate those players from the fleets...The game teachs them nothing and they don't seek out fleets to help them because the content is so easy any build will get them thru it
new players are encouraged to be a single player in this way that's why a lot of them cant shoot there way out barn with the doors closed at level 50, The game has taught them nothing about how to build a ship or even use and understand powers
player segregation by level is the reason you have so many poor playing players in PvE
closing the gap in dps is easy to manage as well
If content requires 10k per player per 5 man team for 50k dps players dps is tracked by the game and the correct amount of players are allowed in the Q
lets call that a normal
Advanced needs 75k per team
Elite requires 150k per team...So (2) 75k players fill a Q for elite............But (15) 10k players could also fill it as well
But balancing PvP and PvE together ...impossible I say...and if it was the next lock box would break it all over again
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Just so we're clear 'kinda meaningless' and 'meaningless' is still meaningless.
No, it isn't; 'kinda meaningless' means it's more-or-less meaningless, in that is has a very low priority, these days. Used to be different. But with all new Traits, trees, Consoles, and what not, people already have so much [Acc] to start with, that having it as a mod has been pushed to the background in PvE. Like getting [Ac/Dg] on Epic: you may convince yourself that you'll see a huge difference in your DPS, but you won't (not from [Acc], at least).
When you ask someone who min-maxes theyll tell you ACC is preferred over everything else besides CrtD and Pen.
Lol, yeah, besides CrtD and Pen. :P And yeah, it trumps [Dmg], for sure; but getting extra [Acc] these days, in the form of a mod, just isn't all that meaningfull any more in PvE. Especially because of the opportunity cost associated with it: that mod could have been a CrtD or Pen. Even with the R&D Science Trait, CrtD has become interesting for Science Captains too.
P.S. Funny what little things ppl try and (nit-)pick a fight over.
The entire DPS-League top is using BFAW. If SS was allegedly so superior, they'd all be using the latter. None of you has been able to refute that logic. Not even remotely. Checkmate.
All you're really saying, though, is that if SS were fixed in such a way that it's not detrimental to PvP, it wouldn't have any effect on PvE.
Heck it might do well against the CE if you ignore the Tholians and can survive without dying throughout the whole thing.
If you take GW and TBR with you, since shards -and the tholians- will still go up against anyone on the map, wether they are shot by faw (or csv) or not
As for the matter of SS, since the OP started with DHC-OPness, and I use it on my phantom, I can also say its not OP in PvE, with DHCs. At least not over CSV in terms of dps.
In the end results can widely differ between theory and practical use.
That aside, removing the +Acc wouldnt impact PvE, so why not just do that (or change it to no bonus Acc against players, results would be the same).
And after they implement it, I wait for thread for nerf of reciprocety, all hands on deck, OSS, APO, Battle cloak... All of those would be valid in terms of pvp (and in terms of AHOD in pve too), but at that rate you will never be able to have a balanced game or pvp. The only possible way to do that is organizing yourself in a channel with rules. Like the dps-crowd did with the dps-chans, just toward the other direction.
All you're really saying, though, is that if SS were fixed in such a way that it's not detrimental to PvP, it wouldn't have any effect on PvE.
Not if they made it a PvP-only change, no. Or removed the [Acc] bonus from it. I'm still not sure why *any* Dev thought a PvE ability desperately needed an extra +40% [Acc], especially when it's so debilitating for PvP.
But I still prefer a PvP-only change, akin to what they did for Evade Target Lock. Or, above that even, no change to it at all. :P
And after they implement it, I wait for thread for nerf of reciprocety, all hands on deck, OSS, APO, Battle cloak... All of those would be valid in terms of pvp (and in terms of AHOD in pve too), but at that rate you will never be able to have a balanced game or pvp. The only possible way to do that is organizing yourself in a channel with rules. Like the dps-crowd did with the dps-chans, just toward the other direction.
Actually, AHOD *does* need a major nerf... for Tact Captains! APA, FOMM, TI, all reduced in cd?! Tactial Initiative alone, wrapped inside a AHOD blanket, that's like a cd-reducer within a cd-reducer. Lolwut?!
The entire DPS-League top is using BFAW. If SS was allegedly so superior, they'd all be using the latter. None of you has been able to refute that logic. Not even remotely. Checkmate.
You're starting from the point that in PvP you need to do DPS. Wrong, in PvP DPS has no meaning, coordination takes its place. BFAW in PvP just inflates the scoreboard, as you're spreading its damage on multiple targets, enough for them to heal the damage you're dealing. In PvP spreading the damage of weapons on multiple targets is the worst thing someone can do.
However, while BO and CRF are single target abilities, they're not going to kill someone straight away, unless the target you're firing at is severely debuffed and you're severely buffed.
With Surgical there's no need to debuff the enemy; it's pure, overkilling damage that outperform your hull easily by three times and, even worse, can be used faster than any defensive ability.
You're starting from the point that in PvP you need to do DPS. Wrong, in PvP DPS has no meaning, coordination takes its place.
He starts from the point that pve and pvp is different and thus just crying nerf in terms of pvp is the wrong way, as -without giving options to how- it might become a worthless ability in pve. And atm, SS is only decent in the low-medium echolons of the dps-crowd.
Here's a look at some numbers from an ISA run back on the 25th.
Player Base Damage: 29,973,447
Player Actual Damage: 39,247,206 (~130.9%)
Incoming Base Damage: 10,157,659
Incoming Actual Damage: 3,970,018 (~39.1%)
Player Healing: 3,252,259 (4 deaths, same player)
Here's one from 10 days before that, back on the 15th.
Player Base Damage: 24,456,278
Player Actual Damage: 35,808,277 (~146.4%)
Incoming Base Damage: 10,117,884
Incoming Actual Damage: 3,058,589 (~30.2%)
Player Healing: 2,399,542 (0 deaths)
How about one from the 25th of the month before?
Player Base Damage: 25,136,352
Player Actual Damage: 28,121,861 (~119.9%)
Incoming Base Damage: 8,229,547
Incoming Actual Damage: 2,477,569 (~30.1%)
Player Healing: 1,368,513 (4 deaths, same player)
One last one from the 19th of that month (didn't have one for the 15th).
Player Base Damage: 22,778,740
Player Actual Damage: 29,720,973 (~130.5%)
Incoming Base Damage: 6,679,653
Incoming Actual Damage: 1,857,466 (~27.8%)
Player Healing: 1,264,067 (0 deaths)
If you addressed that issue...
39,247,206 vs 3,970,018; 988.6% Player damage vs NPC damage
35,808,277 vs 3,058,589; 1170.8% Player damage vs NPC damage
28,121,861 vs 2,477,569; 1135.1% Player damage vs NPC damage
29,720,973 vs 1,857,466; 1600.1% Player damage vs NPC damage
...it wouldn't be so difficult to balance both PvP and PvE, imho.
As long as NPCs are just non-threatening meatbags created to allow for a certain engagement time, one couldn't possibly hope to balance PvP and PvE, again imho. One couldn't hope for the game to be anything more than a DPS game...lobbing grenades into a barrel of goldfish faster and faster.
edit: Course, it will never happen. Any time Cryptic's done anything to try to make NPCs more threatening than a sickly guppy, the forums have flooded with tears.
He starts from the point that pve and pvp is different and thus just crying nerf in terms of pvp is the wrong way, as -without giving options to how- it might become a worthless ability in pve. And atm, SS is only decent in the low-medium echolons of the dps-crowd.
its problem is with PvP because of the reasons other PvPers and I have explained in eleven pages of this freaking thread. Should we ask for nerf speaking of PvE when it's with PvP?
The fact that it outshadows CRF3 by crazy high percentages, and proof has been provided already as well, already speaks for itself. You say you do PvE without issues with CRF, CSV, FAW not needing an Intel ship which can still run them, so what the hell is your problem with addressing surgical in PvP if you clearly stated you don't use it for DPS!? What the fk is going on in this thread, you say one thing and negate it later! Hell if virus was right!
That's a concept of PVE. Kind of comes off as arts 'n crafts for the special needs kids...kind of PVE.
That some of the kids are able to lob those thermonuclear grenades into barrels of goldfish faster than some of the other kids...doesn't change that.
They've had to create a challenge for themselves because the content itself offers them no challenge.
If the PvE in this game offered any kind of challenge - then it would be closer to what PvP offers. There wouldn't be as much difficulty developing/balancing for the two...
...it's only when PvE content consists of figuring out which flip-flop goes on which foot, that something that might require being able to tie shoelaces would become a problem.
Ever notice that there tends to be an inordinate amount of sociopaths on the forums here compared to other games? I think it's the PvE...it's like holding a magnifying glass to ants, it's like pulling wings off of flies, and moving on up from there - it's a breeding ground of that kind of behavior where folks commit genocide and pat themselves on the back for a good job! It's disgusting.
Well, this is is straight up best combo of rant analogies I have read on this forums.
When only challenge persisting in PvE is who's gonna hit defenseless targets more/faster then we can all clearly see major design flaws of space PvE combat.
I mean take at look at that famous ISA and CCA and then go no further then Advanced and Elite patrols. Enemies there use APO, EPTE, Theta, TT, SNB, VM, torp spreads etc. etc.
Difficulty difference between Elite patrols and Elite PvE is staggering and it's no wonder that every time cryptic tried to ramp up the difficulty on PvE that endless rivers of tears have flooded teh forums and in consequence they have dumbed down the popular PvE content so much that only challenge left is bigger hits that in consequence we are faced with such big disconnect between PvP/PvE.
It does not even compute anymore ...when in PvE missions that are the unofficial benchmark boosting 1 enemy ability brings so much tears on forums. It is why queues for Battle of Korfez, BDE, VCE, etc are empty almost all the time and it's cryptics fault, they should have never let no-effort players decide the balance of PvE for them.
Yeah, but that was my point *entirely*, wasn't? PvE and PvP are two wholly different beasts. PvE *isn't* about a single target spawning, one after another. It's more of an AoE deal, in which BFAW is superior.
And that is why it's wrong to just look at the numbers for individual abilities: then you wind up throwing your hands in the air, saying "I supplied them all the number, but they just won't be persuaded. I give up." And that is what just happened with VD, who I totally respect, btw, and who really *is* an absolute number wizard. But sometimes you need to look past measuring the output of an individual weapon, and consider what environment it will be used in. And then you'll realize that, in PvE, BFAW wins out to SS, simply because PvE gameplay radically differs from PvP.
The entire DPS-League top is using BFAW. If SS was allegedly so superior, they'd all be using the latter. None of you has been able to refute that logic. Not even remotely. Checkmate.
Granted that is their choice and, seems to work for them.
However, my own experience using just SS1 & BFAW2, I have parsed equal if not better dps from the SS1, than what BFAW2 had to offer.
Mainly because I can get SS1 on quicker cd time vs BFAW2 and, the added crth helps quite a bit.
its problem is with PvP because of the reasons other PvPers and I have explained in eleven pages of this freaking thread. Should we ask for nerf speaking of PvE when it's with PvP?
The fact that it outshadows CRF3 by crazy high percentages, and proof has been provided already as well, already speaks for itself. You say you do PvE without issues with CRF, CSV, FAW not needing an Intel ship which can still run them, so what the hell is your problem with addressing surgical in PvP if you clearly stated you don't use it for DPS!? What the fk is going on in this thread, you say one thing and negate it later! Hell if virus was right!
It is just that some would like to manufacture a conflict against PvPers and then win it on forums because in PvP they have 0 chance. They make their ships only to function in ISA and beyond that everything is useless like they have admitted for SS as well.
If this thread was about nerfing SNB or whatever else absolutely not one PvEr would even come here let alone spouting such BS as "don't nerf SS even though we don't use it at all" and then..
"checkmate?" ffs.
I mean really meimeitoo?
Also SS would need more testing after last patch in real battle vs normal defense, normal resist targets.
Comments
you know, in pve u equip high crtd weaps cause you wont need the acc. in pvp you have to use high acc weaps to actually be able to hit your target. ergo this change wouldnt affect pve in any way and deals with the uber critd stacking problem appaering with SS in pvp.
its as easy as that. all will be happy again.
I completely agree, a change like this could fix the problem
They say SS3 isn't better than FAW for DPS in PvE.
They cry to not have it nerfed.
#logic
oh and Virusdancer's post completely shut them down, zero, nothing else to say. You ain't light them up even with a flamethrower anymore. It was the jack-of-all-trades post.
Seriously, PvPers > PvErs. No way around it.
The DPS league people rely a lot on FAW and to a lesser degree CSV to get good DPS by hitting many targets and blowing them up as fast as possible. If there was an STF with single targets appearing one by one, SS would definitively be the go-to ability I'm that case. Heck it might do well against the CE if you ignore the Tholians and can survive without dying throughout the whole thing.
The DPS measures in PvE has to be taken with a grain of salt as a measure of effectiveness as it would never perform as well against other players.
So youre telling me in PvE the top DPSers in the game that ARENT running any ships with Intel Abilities will soon be bypassed by those using Intel abilities?
You know the same top DPSers that are popping over 100k DPS? 100k DPS done in ships that arent Intel ships.
I am doing this for your own good , and to so called pvpers, instead of wasting your energy with skills you should open your mind and look at disproportion between the damage and defence at mk XIV and different quality. Trying to alter skills in this stage will do only harm later. The problem is NOT the skills , is the bonus damage you get by upgrading weapons , that is alot higher than defence bonuses. After that you can play with skills , if its needed.
completely disagree,
u dont understand game mechanics...
Game mechanics is more than speed tanking .
Yeah, but that was my point *entirely*, wasn't?
And that is why it's wrong to just look at the numbers for individual abilities: then you wind up throwing your hands in the air, saying "I supplied them all the number, but they just won't be persuaded. I give up." And that is what just happened with VD, who I totally respect, btw, and who really *is* an absolute number wizard. But sometimes you need to look past measuring the output of an individual weapon, and consider what environment it will be used in. And then you'll realize that, in PvE, BFAW wins out to SS, simply because PvE gameplay radically differs from PvP.
The entire DPS-League top is using BFAW. If SS was allegedly so superior, they'd all be using the latter. None of you has been able to refute that logic. Not even remotely. Checkmate.
The healing thing is of no concern. I have an healboat Odyssey, you're going to have a hard time taking it down even with a team. I'm saying that after a team made of highly skilled PvPers, both tacs and scis I know needed to storm it for several minutes to overwhelm my defenses. The MK disparity has already been analyzed by me after its last known patch.
Surgical is innately overpowered, no way around it. It needs to be rethought from the ground up in PvP. In fact
he's stupid enough to not realize that Quantum Bubble can be used only on three ships that, more or less, are the same, hence PvErs in this thread do not even fully understand the topic.
so, would you or any other pver suffer from losing the bonus acc?
i dont think so. removing acc bonus could be a very easy and efficient solution to fix the problems SS creates in pvp while staying in line with very basic game rules which had been there since forever: Crtd for pve Acc for pvp.
Bonus [Acc], as I believe I said earlier in this thread, is kinda meaningless in PvE. I probably wouldn't even miss it. Big deal. I rather they adjust things for PvP-only, though. But if it came down to this, sure, take the [Acc].
Its not meaningless in PvE. Its just not the preferred Mod of PvE.
Which is why I said 'kinda meaningless.' Thing is, in PvE you have a lot of bonus [Acc] to begin (typically >23%). And NPC's are dumb: they don't zip around you, at ludicrous speed: they just die. Everyone who's ever parsed anything will have noticed their [Acc] is always like 99.8% (not everywhere, but close to it). SS didn't need a whopping +40% [Acc] for PvE. Hence, I wouldn't really miss it, if they took it.
Again. Not preferred does not mean meaningless. Just so we're clear 'kinda meaningless' and 'meaningless' is still meaningless. When you ask someone who min-maxes theyll tell you ACC is preferred over everything else besides CrtD and Pen. Considering not everyone is going to have a CrtDx3 Pen or CrtDx4 Mods. Theyre going to have to settle at times for other mods. ACC is much more preferred. Its still going to net you a better return on a target because of overflow.
Do you bring your PvP ship into PvE just like it is ?
No you don't you change abilitys you change gear out/ Doffs Boffs
Do you take your PvE ship into a PvP match...same thing
PvE and PvP share the ship hulls in common that's about it
Do you have to buy 100s of $$$bucks $$$ worth of lobi items upgrade grear and weapons to epic to win in PvP...yes unless your camping Noobs......Yes you do most if not all of the top PvPers do
I guess some of the most elite PvPers just use the white mk10 gear that comes on their ship :P I know someone is going to say that !!
To do content in PvE is this required .....No it isn't 8 to 15k DPS is plenty overkill actually and you need to buy nothing not gained ingame by playing to do it
Some do buy uberleet gear to do content in 2 minutes but they don't have too its optional in PvP it isn't
PvP is pure pay to win its been that way the 3 1/2 years ive been ingame and its never been close to balance that entire time
The reason there are so many who do very low dps is the beginning
Are the story missions segregate those players from the fleets...The game teachs them nothing and they don't seek out fleets to help them because the content is so easy any build will get them thru it
new players are encouraged to be a single player in this way that's why a lot of them cant shoot there way out barn with the doors closed at level 50, The game has taught them nothing about how to build a ship or even use and understand powers
player segregation by level is the reason you have so many poor playing players in PvE
closing the gap in dps is easy to manage as well
If content requires 10k per player per 5 man team for 50k dps players dps is tracked by the game and the correct amount of players are allowed in the Q
lets call that a normal
Advanced needs 75k per team
Elite requires 150k per team...So (2) 75k players fill a Q for elite............But (15) 10k players could also fill it as well
But balancing PvP and PvE together ...impossible I say...and if it was the next lock box would break it all over again
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
No, it isn't; 'kinda meaningless' means it's more-or-less meaningless, in that is has a very low priority, these days. Used to be different. But with all new Traits, trees, Consoles, and what not, people already have so much [Acc] to start with, that having it as a mod has been pushed to the background in PvE. Like getting [Ac/Dg] on Epic: you may convince yourself that you'll see a huge difference in your DPS, but you won't (not from [Acc], at least).
Lol, yeah, besides CrtD and Pen. :P And yeah, it trumps [Dmg], for sure; but getting extra [Acc] these days, in the form of a mod, just isn't all that meaningfull any more in PvE. Especially because of the opportunity cost associated with it: that mod could have been a CrtD or Pen. Even with the R&D Science Trait, CrtD has become interesting for Science Captains too.
P.S. Funny what little things ppl try and (nit-)pick a fight over.
All you're really saying, though, is that if SS were fixed in such a way that it's not detrimental to PvP, it wouldn't have any effect on PvE.
Hopefully well see it fixed on tribble soon.
If you take GW and TBR with you, since shards -and the tholians- will still go up against anyone on the map, wether they are shot by faw (or csv) or not
As for the matter of SS, since the OP started with DHC-OPness, and I use it on my phantom, I can also say its not OP in PvE, with DHCs. At least not over CSV in terms of dps.
In the end results can widely differ between theory and practical use.
That aside, removing the +Acc wouldnt impact PvE, so why not just do that (or change it to no bonus Acc against players, results would be the same).
And after they implement it, I wait for thread for nerf of reciprocety, all hands on deck, OSS, APO, Battle cloak... All of those would be valid in terms of pvp (and in terms of AHOD in pve too), but at that rate you will never be able to have a balanced game or pvp. The only possible way to do that is organizing yourself in a channel with rules. Like the dps-crowd did with the dps-chans, just toward the other direction.
Not if they made it a PvP-only change, no.
But I still prefer a PvP-only change, akin to what they did for Evade Target Lock. Or, above that even, no change to it at all. :P
Actually, AHOD *does* need a major nerf... for Tact Captains! APA, FOMM, TI, all reduced in cd?! Tactial Initiative alone, wrapped inside a AHOD blanket, that's like a cd-reducer within a cd-reducer. Lolwut?!
You're starting from the point that in PvP you need to do DPS. Wrong, in PvP DPS has no meaning, coordination takes its place. BFAW in PvP just inflates the scoreboard, as you're spreading its damage on multiple targets, enough for them to heal the damage you're dealing. In PvP spreading the damage of weapons on multiple targets is the worst thing someone can do.
However, while BO and CRF are single target abilities, they're not going to kill someone straight away, unless the target you're firing at is severely debuffed and you're severely buffed.
With Surgical there's no need to debuff the enemy; it's pure, overkilling damage that outperform your hull easily by three times and, even worse, can be used faster than any defensive ability.
He starts from the point that pve and pvp is different and thus just crying nerf in terms of pvp is the wrong way, as -without giving options to how- it might become a worthless ability in pve. And atm, SS is only decent in the low-medium echolons of the dps-crowd.
Here's a look at some numbers from an ISA run back on the 25th.
Player Base Damage: 29,973,447
Player Actual Damage: 39,247,206 (~130.9%)
Incoming Base Damage: 10,157,659
Incoming Actual Damage: 3,970,018 (~39.1%)
Player Healing: 3,252,259 (4 deaths, same player)
Here's one from 10 days before that, back on the 15th.
Player Base Damage: 24,456,278
Player Actual Damage: 35,808,277 (~146.4%)
Incoming Base Damage: 10,117,884
Incoming Actual Damage: 3,058,589 (~30.2%)
Player Healing: 2,399,542 (0 deaths)
How about one from the 25th of the month before?
Player Base Damage: 25,136,352
Player Actual Damage: 28,121,861 (~119.9%)
Incoming Base Damage: 8,229,547
Incoming Actual Damage: 2,477,569 (~30.1%)
Player Healing: 1,368,513 (4 deaths, same player)
One last one from the 19th of that month (didn't have one for the 15th).
Player Base Damage: 22,778,740
Player Actual Damage: 29,720,973 (~130.5%)
Incoming Base Damage: 6,679,653
Incoming Actual Damage: 1,857,466 (~27.8%)
Player Healing: 1,264,067 (0 deaths)
If you addressed that issue...
39,247,206 vs 3,970,018; 988.6% Player damage vs NPC damage
35,808,277 vs 3,058,589; 1170.8% Player damage vs NPC damage
28,121,861 vs 2,477,569; 1135.1% Player damage vs NPC damage
29,720,973 vs 1,857,466; 1600.1% Player damage vs NPC damage
...it wouldn't be so difficult to balance both PvP and PvE, imho.
As long as NPCs are just non-threatening meatbags created to allow for a certain engagement time, one couldn't possibly hope to balance PvP and PvE, again imho. One couldn't hope for the game to be anything more than a DPS game...lobbing grenades into a barrel of goldfish faster and faster.
edit: Course, it will never happen. Any time Cryptic's done anything to try to make NPCs more threatening than a sickly guppy, the forums have flooded with tears.
its problem is with PvP because of the reasons other PvPers and I have explained in eleven pages of this freaking thread. Should we ask for nerf speaking of PvE when it's with PvP?
The fact that it outshadows CRF3 by crazy high percentages, and proof has been provided already as well, already speaks for itself. You say you do PvE without issues with CRF, CSV, FAW not needing an Intel ship which can still run them, so what the hell is your problem with addressing surgical in PvP if you clearly stated you don't use it for DPS!? What the fk is going on in this thread, you say one thing and negate it later! Hell if virus was right!
Well, this is is straight up best combo of rant analogies I have read on this forums.
When only challenge persisting in PvE is who's gonna hit defenseless targets more/faster then we can all clearly see major design flaws of space PvE combat.
I mean take at look at that famous ISA and CCA and then go no further then Advanced and Elite patrols. Enemies there use APO, EPTE, Theta, TT, SNB, VM, torp spreads etc. etc.
Difficulty difference between Elite patrols and Elite PvE is staggering and it's no wonder that every time cryptic tried to ramp up the difficulty on PvE that endless rivers of tears have flooded teh forums and in consequence they have dumbed down the popular PvE content so much that only challenge left is bigger hits that in consequence we are faced with such big disconnect between PvP/PvE.
It does not even compute anymore ...when in PvE missions that are the unofficial benchmark boosting 1 enemy ability brings so much tears on forums. It is why queues for Battle of Korfez, BDE, VCE, etc are empty almost all the time and it's cryptics fault, they should have never let no-effort players decide the balance of PvE for them.
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Granted that is their choice and, seems to work for them.
However, my own experience using just SS1 & BFAW2, I have parsed equal if not better dps from the SS1, than what BFAW2 had to offer.
Mainly because I can get SS1 on quicker cd time vs BFAW2 and, the added crth helps quite a bit.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
It is just that some would like to manufacture a conflict against PvPers and then win it on forums because in PvP they have 0 chance. They make their ships only to function in ISA and beyond that everything is useless like they have admitted for SS as well.
If this thread was about nerfing SNB or whatever else absolutely not one PvEr would even come here let alone spouting such BS as "don't nerf SS even though we don't use it at all" and then..
"checkmate?" ffs.
I mean really meimeitoo?
Also SS would need more testing after last patch in real battle vs normal defense, normal resist targets.
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